Can a Moralist Atheist be mu'min - Issue Revisited

HP_TECH

Brother also strongly consider this which was shown to me by my Lord in my salat

4613-14

Indeed, those who say, ?Our Lord is Allah,? then remain firm, then they will have no fear nor will they grieve.
Those are the companions of Paradise abiding forever therein, a reward for what they used to do.

This nullifies your minimum condition hypothesis devastatingly.

One could by your reason also make the claim that the minimum condition is for a person to simply say ?Our Lord is Allah? and then remain firm.

Would you be perhaps in support of such a claim?

That would be ridiculous, right?

Yet you make the same claim about 262.
If you claim that 262 is a minimum condition because of what it lists then by the same deductive reasoning 4613-14 supersedes 262 as the most minimal condition. It is even a shorter requirement which grants equally exemption from grief and fear and admission to abide in Paradise forever.

I hope you see the flaw in your reasoning Arman.

Obviously we cannot claim that what we find in one single ayaat clearly illustrates everything pertaining a specific topic. We have to take in consideration the entire Book and all the relevant ayaats and topics.
We know that there is no such concept as minimum condition. All of what Allah calls us to believe in and obey is in fact necessary and you will find it repeated in many places. The punishment is prescribed for those who deny the Verses, Signs of our Lord, therefore, you cannot exclude putting faith in the Signs of our Lord from necessary conditions.

Furthermore Read this Arman,

4629-32

And when We directed to you a party of jinn, listening to the Quran. And when they attended it, they said, ?Listen quietly.? And when it was concluded, they went back to their people as warners.
They said, ?O our people! Indeed, we have heard a Book revealed after Musa confirming what was before it, guiding to the truth and a Straight Path.
O our people! Respond to the one who invites to Allah and believe in him. He will forgive for you your sins and protect you from a painful punishment.
And whoever does not respond to the one who calls to Allah, then he cannot escape on the earth, and he will have no protectors besides Him. Those are in clear error.?

We are supposed to respond to the one who invites to Allah (our Messengers) and believe in them and as a consequence Allah will forgive our sins and protect us from a punishment painful and one who does not respond to the caller of Allah has no escape.

This further annuls your claim that the minimum conditions are only putting faith in Allah, the Last Day and acting righteously.
Again you must take into consideration all the ayaats that relate, which are far too many to cite but all contain various ?conditions? as you would presume. This means that all of what you would presume as conditions are actually necessary.

Hear me out Arman,
ALL of them need to be considered together. One cannot arbitrarily just pick one ayaat and make that the minimal condition for salvation.

Other than that one could arbitrarily pick 4613 and still be by your reasoning correct, while we know in logic that to claim such as a minimum condition would be absurd.
Furthermore there is no indication in The Book about any minimum condition concepts.

HP_TECH

Do you not consider those who dispute concerning the Signs of Allah? How are they turned away (from the reality)?
Those who deny the Book and that with which We sent Our Messengers; but soon they will know.
When the iron collars will be around their necks and the chains; they will be dragged,
In the boiling water; then in the Fire they will be burned.
Then it will be said to them, ?Where is that which you used to associate (with Him in worship)
Other than Allah?? They will say, ?They have departed from us. Nay! We did not call upon anything before.? Thus Allah lets the disbelievers go astray.
(It will be said to them), ?That was because you used to rejoice on the earth without right and you used to behave insolently.
Enter the gates of Hell to abide forever in it, and wretched is the abode of the arrogant.?

Arman do you still think one can deny the Book and the Messengers and be a mu'min?
At this point I believe the OP has been fully answered and the claim refuted by massive evidence.

Armanaziz

Peace HP_TECH.

I do see a fair bit of improvement from your earlier attacking tone, so perhaps it makes sense to engage in this discourse once more.

The Minimum Criteria (262)

The bulk of your above posts are centered around refuting my idea that the verse 262 delineates the minimum criteria for salvation. For convenience let us recap the relevant verses

262 Indeed, those who have placed faith, and those who have become hudan or the nasara or the sabian? whoever put faith in God and the last day and acted righteously ? so for them their reward is with their Master, and they don?t have any fear, nor will they grieve.

... ... ...

4123 By neither your wishful thinking, nor the wishful thinking of the fraternity of the book ? whoever acts in wickedness will be repaid for it and will neither find any patron nor any helper from beside God.

4124 And whoever acts out of righteousness ? among male or female ? and is faithful, then they are the ones to enter the garden and they will not be wronged by crumbs.

... ... ...

569 Indeed, those who had faith, and those ? who became hudan or the sabian or the nasara, ? whoever put faith in God and the last day and acted righteously ? then they don?t have any fear, nor will they grieve.

(My personal translation, cross checking is recommended.)

From these verse I am deriving that the minimum / necessary condition for salvation are - i) faith in Allah, ii) faith in last day and iii) Righteous action.

You are challenging me that This "minimum / necessary condition" is my innovation - it is not mentioned in the above verses. My answer to that is - the very statement Whoever does X will get Y. - means that doing X is the minimum / necessary condition for getting Y. Consider these comparable statements "whoever gets 33 in the exam passes the exam" - implies that getting 33 is the minimum / necessary condition for passing the exam. Also, "whoever presents a valid ticket rides the train" - means presenting a valid ticket is the minimum / necessary condition for riding the train.

Now let's look at some other points that you are highlighting

Furthermore, how can you arbitrarily decide that putting faith in Allah does not convey putting faith in His Words and by default His Messengers.
It is a bit unfair for you to separate those from i).
One can argue that when it comes to ii) if one puts faith in the Last day by default they are acknowledging The Books which warn about it, and the Messengers who warn about it.
iii) Same argument is permissible for acting righteously, one acts righteously by acknowledging EVERYTHING authorized by Allah.

I agree that having faith in Allah is inseparable from having faith in the messenger - but that is ONLY AS LONG AS the messenger is duly recognized as such. Since we recognize Muhammad (pbuh) as the messenger of Allah it is our obligation to have faith in the message brought by the messenger (i.e. Qur'an). But for someone who barely knows about Muhammad or Qur'an we cannot say the same. And that is where 262 or 4123-124 becomes so powerful. If Allah wanted to mean whoever does not put faith in Qur'an / the books / the messengers will burn in hell - He could have said that. BUT HE CHOSE NOT TO. And Our Master never runs out of words.

You have presented another interesting point in your next post - which shows that you are thinking. You must be credited for your effort here

Brother also strongly consider this which was shown to me by my Lord in my salat

4613-14

Indeed, those who say, ?Our Lord is Allah,? then remain firm, then they will have no fear nor will they grieve.
Those are the companions of Paradise abiding forever therein, a reward for what they used to do.

This nullifies your minimum condition hypothesis devastatingly.

One could by your reason also make the claim that the minimum condition is for a person to simply say ?Our Lord is Allah? and then remain firm.

Now if we look back to your conclusion from comparing 262 with 4613-14 it seems that you are trying to imply that the verses of Qur'an say inconsistent things so we should not take each verse at its face value. I am absolutely opposed to this approach or conclusion. To me if Qur'an is supposed to be the Words of God - and I am convinced it is - each statement of this book must make perfect sense on standalone basis as well as aggregate basis. So, instead of concluding that we should not try to understand standalone verses I would try to reconcile what these two verses are saying and then derive the conclusion that makes each statement sync with the other.

The first point of difference between 262 / 4124 / 569 vs. 4613-14 is that in 262 / 4124 / 569 the subject is the conditional noun "man" (whoever) - which is the critical word to indicate that it is a conditional statement; whoever does X, gets Y - the X is presented as the minimum condition for getting Y. BUT, in 4613 the subject is masculine plural relative pronoun alladhina (those).. which does not imply that it is the minimum condition. Again an example to illustrate the point

"Indeed, those who got first division passed the exam, those who got second or third division passed the exam - whoever got 33% mark passed the exam."
Look how the word "whoever" sets the 33% as the minimum requirement.

Still one may argue whether the people mentioned in 4613-14 are meeting the 3 minimum requirements that we derived from 262

faith in Allah - which I interpret as acceptance of our responsibility to Allah
faith in last day- which I interpret as acceptance of our accountability to Allah
righteous action

Now, with this note let us again look at 4613-14 and put it in the context of minimum requirements as set out in 262. Per your translation

Indeed, those who say, ?Our Lord is Allah,? then remain firm, then they will have no fear nor will they grieve.
Those are the companions of Paradise abiding forever therein, a reward for what they used to do.

The extremely important point here is the phrase "remain firm". What does it mean to remain firm? The next verse has one clue - they are rewarded for what they do (a'mal) not only for their declaration. So, "remaining firm" on the claim of Allah being our Lord / Master (condition 1) itself includes righteous behavior (condition 3) that would result from accepting our accountability to Allah (condition 2). Thus the three minimum conditions are implicitly present in these verses as well.

The two cases

Case 1

You are saying the verse implies something like "It literally does not matter if you yell in a deaf person?s ear because they will not hear." That is exactly what I am trying to say. If we take the word kafir to mean disbeliever - it does not add up. Anyone who is a disbeliever is not necessarily blind or deaf - they can be simply uninformed or misinformed. Today they disbelieve because of not considering all arguments, but tomorrow they may believe when more convincing arguments or signs are presented. Rather those who are actively engaged in "Repressing their faith" - i.e. - suppressing their inherent faculty of using their God gifted sense of right and wrong they are the ones who are deaf and blind. They are fixed headed about not accepting responsibility - so they will not be convinced with warning or explanation or signs. Thus the usage of the word "ka-fa-ra" in this verse goes to demonstrate that "disbelieve" is a oversimplified translation.

Also consider this if kur was a matter of disbelief the verse would have said "It does not matter if you explain to them or not explain to them, they won't believe". But rather the verse says, "It does not matter whether you warn them or not warn them, they won't put faith." - It is a matter of WARNING not explaining because Kufr-iman is not a matter of believing - it is a matter of accepting or rejecting responsibility.

The same can actually be demonstrated using verse 234 where iblis has been claimed to be amongst the kafir. Does it make sense that after failing to comply with God's instruction iblis started to disbelieve? No. Rather he became amongst the ones who - suppressed their inherent faculty of using their God gifted sense of right and wrong or repressed their faith in God - or in other words failed to acknowledge obedience of God as an inviolable obligation. And that is all I am trying to convey Faith (iman) and Repression (kufr) are not merely believing or disbelieving in certain propositions - Faith (iman) is our acceptance of our responsibility to Allah and Kufr is the active repression of our inherent inclination of doing so.

Case 2

You again got fixed upon 2100 referring to God's covenant, while in my last post I have already accepted your argument that this verse which talks about "whenever they make a covenant" can be taken to imply God's covenant - that is not the point here. The point is even if it covenant with God, it does not make sense that by breaching such covenant they become "disbeliever".

Back to the OP

Do you not consider those who dispute concerning the Signs of Allah? How are they turned away (from the reality)?
Those who deny the Book and that with which We sent Our Messengers; but soon they will know.
When the iron collars will be around their necks and the chains; they will be dragged,
In the boiling water; then in the Fire they will be burned.
Then it will be said to them, ?Where is that which you used to associate (with Him in worship)
Other than Allah?? They will say, ?They have departed from us. Nay! We did not call upon anything before.? Thus Allah lets the disbelievers go astray.
(It will be said to them), ?That was because you used to rejoice on the earth without right and you used to behave insolently.
Enter the gates of Hell to abide forever in it, and wretched is the abode of the arrogant.?

Arman do you still think one can deny the Book and the Messengers and be a mu'min?
At this point I believe the OP has been fully answered and the claim refuted by massive evidence.

I acknowledge and appreciate your sharing of the verses of Qur'an highlighting the ill fate of those who reject the signs of Allah, those who reject the messenger and so on. I do believe and agree that those who seek the path of division and corruption rejecting our obligation to our common source of existence and rejecting the teaching of the messenger are the society of fire - they will be in it for ever. My OP was not about them. My OP is about the people who are faithful to their obligation towards our common source of existence by acting righteously to others - but as a matter of intellectual journey have not made sense of the nature of that " common source of existence" in the same manner as the people of the book do. I continue to believe Our Master can guide them among the righteous and we are not entitled to pursue enmity against them.

... ... ...

This is the third time I am explaining the arguments above and apparently there are still irreconcilable differences between your and my understanding. I believe I have made my case with sufficient arguments and you have also demonstrated your way of thinking which bars you from accepting my arguments. So, at this stage we should really leave this out for the readers to decide who is grounded on logic and who is grounded on delusion.

But I find it worthwhile to discuss a little bit on the root cause why there are such differences between your and my understanding. I believe that is because my approach to Qur'an is totally different from your approach.

My approach

My recognition of my Master does not begin from the Qur'an or the teaching of the messenger. My recognition of my Master comes from my observation of who I am and where I stand in relation to the universe. I recognize my Master by observing my own conscious mind - which I know cannot be a creation of accidental arrangement of matters. I recognize the handiwork of the Supreme Authority who has framed the heaven and earth in absolute mercy with absolute wisdom and in absolute justice.

I have seen that my Master's Mercy and active interest is NOT limited to any specific religion or sect - His mercy encompasses everyone. Even the child which is born today in the Chinese family who never heard of Prophet Muhammad or Qur'an is brought up with the same loving care of God that a "Muslim" child receives from its parents. The same sun gives heat to all, the same water meets their thirst. Each is endowed with the same faculty of freewill to think and chose their course of action - whether they should be humble and grateful for the gift of life and thereby act righteously towards all the fellow creatures OR whether they would be arrogant and live in a selfish world.

I have also seen that the nations which have performed more righteously, have acted upon higher ethical standards and effectively curbed corruption have indeed been blessed by our Master with a more equitable and livable society, whereas those nations who indulge in corruption and oppression end up in Jahannam in this very world - and this happens irrespective of religious affiliation of the nations.

So, this how I have found my Master - the One featuring Absolute Authority, Absolute Mercy and Absolute Justice. I do not dare to claim I understand my Master, I simply acknowledge I accept His authority and thereby I accept the responsibility that I should act righteously to all of His creations.

When I approach Qur'an, I seek the wisdom from my Master in it - and to the extent I find reflection of my Master in this book - I accept the "best" understanding from it. Whatever interpretation or understanding is devoid of logic or out of touch with the sense of right and wrong that my Master has endowed me has to go away and I keep searching for the understanding that makes perfect sense in light of my Master's absolute Mercy and absolute Justice. When I read with this set of mind I see that "the fraternity of the book" are a fortunate section of mankind who have access to higher wisdom through the messengers and books - but they are by no way meant to be the only salvaged group. Rather they have, by virtue of their fortune, a stricter test of making the best use of their knowledge. The community of the last messenger, in particular, is supposed to be brought for the benefit of mankind - not to rule over them or force entire mankind to convert into their own.

And thus I strive to take the most accommodating understanding from Qur'an with utter humility (which you interpret as foolishness).

Your approach (apparently)

You seem to have started from the notion that Allah is a deity who created the humans to play some sort of game with them. He sent His messenger to some people with His book in specific language, to make things more interesting He flooded the earth with numerous false / outdated messengers, and He left out the vast majority of the others out in the cold with a big challenge of finding the right messenger and right book to follow. Those who end up finding the right messenger and book will be salvaged - the rest go to hell. Whatever you read in the Qur'an you end up fitting it into your notion that only the people who accept Qur'an are God's favored people and the rest are doomed.

You appear to be convinced that you have already hit the jackpot by finding the right book and the right messenger - so you have already become victorious over the rest of the world full of fools. This sense of victory gives you a unique confidence (which I interpret as arrogance) that enables you to consume all the benefits of science and yet show your middle finger to collective progress of human scientific endeavor by living in your flat earth of fantasy. It gives you enough confidence to promote hatred and enmity with everyone who does not agree with your religious ideas - including even those who strive to live peaceful and righteous life - thereby promoting the path of conflict, division and suffering - and still you consider yourself guided.

The bad news is as long as our approaches are so fundamentally different we are definitely not going to agree on our understanding of Qur'an. The best we can try to do is to pray to Allah together to eventually guide us to the straight way. The good news is - in the end to the same Master is our return. Then He will judge between us - what in it that we were differing.

Until then, for you is your resolution, for me is mine.

Regards,
Arman

amin

To me in Quran, Kaafir is One who is in a denial mode of the guidance because of their egoist mindset.
Good or bad are taught by God in live, so we should be in a position to open ourselves for His message, thereby making our path correct and one who closes himself to the message is a kaafir.
Guidance will come from everywhere, to deny is evil and immoral.

Here kaafir is not one who denies some specific names or ideas of God because He is above all ideas and purely sacred.

HP_TECH

Peace HP_TECH.

Peace Arman

Do you greet me with Peace, and then eat my flesh while I am deceased?

I do see a fair bit of improvement from your earlier attacking tone, so perhaps it makes sense to engage in this discourse once more.

Your tone in the previous posts and including this was/is equally if not more attacking and for record-keeping sake I will highlight these as well.

The Minimum Criteria (262)

The bulk of your above posts are centered around refuting my idea that the verse 262 delineates the minimum criteria for salvation. For convenience let us recap the relevant verses

No, I refuted your entire bulk of arguments Arman, but unfortunately you only highlighted the arguments you felt comfortable tackling.

262 Indeed, those who have placed faith, and those who have become hudan or the nasara or the sabian? whoever put faith in God and the last day and acted righteously ? so for them their reward is with their Master, and they don?t have any fear, nor will they grieve.

... ... ...

4123 By neither your wishful thinking, nor the wishful thinking of the fraternity of the book ? whoever acts in wickedness will be repaid for it and will neither find any patron nor any helper from beside God.

4124 And whoever acts out of righteousness ? among male or female ? and is faithful, then they are the ones to enter the garden and they will not be wronged by crumbs.

... ... ...

569 Indeed, those who had faith, and those ? who became hudan or the sabian or the nasara, ? whoever put faith in God and the last day and acted righteously ? then they don?t have any fear, nor will they grieve.

(My personal translation, cross checking is recommended.)

Another thing you deter away from is explaining to me simply how you arrive at your personal translations. Do you speak, read, write 7th century Classic Arabic?
I doubt it. So you should explain what your method for choosing certain interpretations over others is, since you claim I blindly rely on translators and self-proclaimed scholars.

From these verse I am deriving that the minimum / necessary condition for salvation are - i) faith in Allah, ii) faith in last day and iii) Righteous action.

That is an invalid assumption for two main reason, nowhere in the Quran is there any concept of minimum requirement furthermore this verse lacks the very words minimum.

You are challenging me that This "minimum / necessary condition" is my innovation - it is not mentioned in the above verses. My answer to that is - the very statement Whoever does X will get Y. - means that doing X is the minimum / necessary condition for getting Y. Consider these comparable statements "whoever gets 33 in the exam passes the exam" - implies that getting 33 is the minimum / necessary condition for passing the exam. Also, "whoever presents a valid ticket rides the train" - means presenting a valid ticket is the minimum / necessary condition for riding the train.

I am not challenging you. It is clearly your innovation. I will God willing demonstrate it.
Okay logic huh? X is what is necessary to get Y. Despite our arguments and opposing views, there is the absolute truth from Allah about what X entails.
Now you propose that X{A,B,C} by taking into consideration one standalone verse or a couple of isolated verses.

I propose that X{A,B,C,D,E} by taking in consideration the entire Quran.
I also propose that X{A,B,C,D,E} because A{D,E}. D and E are included in A and therefore when you claim X{A,B,C} you are really saying X{A,B,C,D,E}.

It is more logical to conclude that the universal requirement is more probable to be X{A,B,C,D,E} rather than X{A,B,C} because the former takes into consideration the entire narrative in the Quran, while the latter is forcing the unprecedented concept of a minimum requirement by taking one or a few verses out of context and excluding 2 other major ?conditions? which are found throughout the entire Book in order to satisfy an oxymoronic OP(Can a Moralist Athiest be mu?min).

Now let's look at some other points that you are highlighting

Address all my points?do not just pick and choose. I addressed all of yours.

I agree that having faith in Allah is inseparable from having faith in the messenger - but that is ONLY AS LONG AS the messenger is duly recognized as such. Since we recognize Muhammad (pbuh) as the messenger of Allah it is our obligation to have faith in the message brought by the messenger (i.e. Qur'an). But for someone who barely knows about Muhammad or Qur'an we cannot say the same. And that is where 262 or 4123-124 becomes so powerful. If Allah wanted to mean whoever does not put faith in Qur'an / the books / the messengers will burn in hell - He could have said that. BUT HE CHOSE NOT TO. And Our Master never runs out of words.

Exactly my point, if Allah wanted to mean minimum requirement - He could have said that. BUT HE CHOSE NOT TO. And Our Master never runs out of words.

You have presented another interesting point in your next post - which shows that you are thinking. You must be credited for your effort here

Brother also strongly consider this which was shown to me by my Lord in my salat

4613-14

Indeed, those who say, ?Our Lord is Allah,? then remain firm, then they will have no fear nor will they grieve.
Those are the companions of Paradise abiding forever therein, a reward for what they used to do.

This nullifies your minimum condition hypothesis devastatingly.

One could by your reason also make the claim that the minimum condition is for a person to simply say ?Our Lord is Allah? and then remain firm.

Ok ok got some credit coming up? yay

Now if we look back to your conclusion from comparing 262 with 4613-14 it seems that you are trying to imply that the verses of Qur'an say inconsistent things so we should not take each verse at its face value. I am absolutely opposed to this approach or conclusion. To me if Qur'an is supposed to be the Words of God - and I am convinced it is - each statement of this book must make perfect sense on standalone basis as well as aggregate basis. So, instead of concluding that we should not try to understand standalone verses I would try to reconcile what these two verses are saying and then derive the conclusion that makes each statement sync with the other.

wow

Bruh? Is this how you credit me?

First of all that is an absolute strawman argument. Classic example.
Secondly, you have a nasty habit of fabricating ideas and reading between the lines what is not there.
I have never implied such things and you deliberately made that up to throw muck at my arguments. That is despicable.

This for the record is what I said

Obviously we cannot claim that what we find in one single ayaat clearly illustrates everything pertaining a specific topic. We have to take in consideration the entire Book and all the relevant ayaats and topics.
We know that there is no such concept as minimum condition. All of what Allah calls us to believe in and obey is in fact necessary and you will find it repeated in many places. The punishment is prescribed for those who deny the Verses, Signs of our Lord, therefore, you cannot exclude putting faith in the Signs of our Lord from necessary conditions.

I said the exact opposite of what you accused me of. This makes you a manipulating pathetic liar.

It is rather you who is taking the standalone approach by refusing to consider all the other ayaats in the Quran that command to believe in the Messenger and the Books.

The first point of difference between 262 / 4124 / 569 vs. 4613-14 is that in 262 / 4124 / 569 the subject is the conditional noun "man" (whoever) - which is the critical word to indicate that it is a conditional statement; whoever does X, gets Y - the X is presented as the minimum condition for getting Y. BUT, in 4613 the subject is masculine plural relative pronoun alladhina (those).. which does not imply that it is the minimum condition. Again an example to illustrate the point

That is not even logical now that I think of it. Your claim is that X gets Y. That is based on your focus on one verse. Other verses actually detail that X incorporates more than those 3 conditions and as you have said yourself and proven you cannot take a standalone approach and ignore other relevant ayaats and fabricate the notion of a required minimum. The pronouns are inherently interchangeable.

"Indeed, those who got first division passed the exam, those who got second or third division passed the exam - whoever got 33% mark passed the exam."
Look how the word "whoever" sets the 33% as the minimum requirement.

Likewise
"Indeed, whoever got first division passed the exam, whoever got second or third division passed the exam - those got 33% mark passed the exam."
Look how the word ?those? sets the 33% as the minimum requirement.

Virtually interchangeable. This is not serious nor relevant nor your best argument.
The main flaw in this argument I would say is that for a particular reason YOU seemed to be ?hell-bent? on proclaiming there is a minimum requirement at the cost of single-handedly transforming language by claiming the term whoever specifically denotes minimality. This could not be further form the truth. Like I always say you have to consider context before you try to manipulate words and syntax.

Still one may argue whether the people mentioned in 4613-14 are meeting the 3 minimum requirements that we derived from 262

faith in Allah - which I interpret as acceptance of our responsibility to Allah
faith in last day- which I interpret as acceptance of our accountability to Allah
righteous action

Now, with this note let us again look at 4613-14 and put it in the context of minimum requirements as set out in 262. Per your translation

Indeed, those who say, ?Our Lord is Allah,? then remain firm, then they will have no fear nor will they grieve.
Those are the companions of Paradise abiding forever therein, a reward for what they used to do.

The extremely important point here is the phrase "remain firm". What does it mean to remain firm? The next verse has one clue - they are rewarded for what they do (a'mal) not only for their declaration. So, "remaining firm" on the claim of Allah being our Lord / Master (condition 1) itself includes righteous behavior (condition 3) that would result from accepting our accountability to Allah (condition 2). Thus the three minimum conditions are implicitly present in these verses as well.

Good work, and thus you have proven my point exactly once again thoroughly. My intention was never to claim that those mentioned in 4613-14 did not meet their requirements. It is the opposite! It was to show you that in order to conclude that those in 4613-14 are actually meeting your presumed ?minimum conditions?, you would have to have prior knowledge outside of 4613-14. If you were to look at it as standalone as you are doing for 262, one could erroneously make the claim that 4613-14 denotes the most minimal requirement. Upon closer study of the Quran one would realize that you?d have to finish the entire Book to truly make any judgements about any requirements. You have demonstrated this point perfectly for me by extrapolating ideas and concepts from other verses bedside 4613-14, specifically 262. Although you are able to support your own thesis by searching for relevant, congruent and incorporative ayaats you seem to not be able to use the same methodology when it comes to 262 itself and analyzing whether there any ayaats which better clarify the totality of requirement and if there are other ayaats, concepts and meaning which i) ii) iii) actually INCORPORATE.

Let me be specific here you claim remaining firm incorporates A, B and C. But, there is no logic why you should exclude D and E. It seems like a selective decision not a consistent truth-seeking studious approach in my opinion.

The two cases

Case 1

Anyone who is a disbeliever is not necessarily blind or deaf - they can be simply uninformed or misinformed. Today they disbelieve because of not considering all arguments, but tomorrow they may believe when more convincing arguments or signs are presented. Rather those who are actively engaged in "Repressing their faith" - i.e. - suppressing their inherent faculty of using their God gifted sense of right and wrong they are the ones who are deaf and blind. They are fixed headed about not accepting responsibility - so they will not be convinced with warning or explanation or signs. Thus the usage of the word "ka-fa-ra" in this verse goes to demonstrate that "disbelieve" is a oversimplified translation.

Also consider this if kur was a matter of disbelief the verse would have said "It does not matter if you explain to them or not explain to them, they won't believe". But rather the verse says, "It does not matter whether you warn them or not warn them, they won't put faith." - It is a matter of WARNING not explaining because Kufr-iman is not a matter of believing - it is a matter of accepting or rejecting responsibility.

The same can actually be demonstrated using verse 234 where iblis has been claimed to be amongst the kafir. Does it make sense that after failing to comply with God's instruction iblis started to disbelieve? No. Rather he became amongst the ones who - suppressed their inherent faculty of using their God gifted sense of right and wrong or repressed their faith in God - or in other words failed to acknowledge obedience of God as an inviolable obligation. And that is all I am trying to convey Faith (iman) and Repression (kufr) are not merely believing or disbelieving in certain propositions - Faith (iman) is our acceptance of our responsibility to Allah and Kufr is the active repression of our inherent inclination of doing so.

Then according to the very argument you are making, atheists who suppress their inherent faculty of using their God gifted sense of right and wrong or repress their faith in God are like in the worst position. Akin to Iblis repression of faith. They are actually informed about Allah and religions, probably even more so than other (speaking of today) polytheists, yet they deliberately choose to disbelieve.
Basically you have answered your own OP.

Case 2

You again got fixed upon 2100 referring to God's covenant, while in my last post I have already accepted your argument that this verse which talks about "whenever they make a covenant" can be taken to imply God's covenant - that is not the point here. The point is even if it covenant with God, it does not make sense that by breaching such covenant they become "disbeliever".

Back to the OP

I acknowledge and appreciate your sharing of the verses of Qur'an highlighting the ill fate of those who reject the signs of Allah, those who reject the messenger and so on. I do believe and agree that those who seek the path of division and corruption rejecting our obligation to our common source of existence and rejecting the teaching of the messenger are the society of fire - they will be in it for ever. My OP was not about them. My OP is about the people who are faithful to their obligation towards our common source of existence by acting righteously to others - but as a matter of intellectual journey have not made sense of the nature of that " common source of existence" in the same manner as the people of the book do. I continue to believe Our Master can guide them among the righteous and we are not entitled to pursue enmity against them.

... ... ...

This is the third time I am explaining the arguments above and apparently there are still irreconcilable differences between your and my understanding. I believe I have made my case with sufficient arguments and you have also demonstrated your way of thinking which bars you from accepting my arguments. So, at this stage we should really leave this out for the readers to decide who is grounded on logic and who is grounded on delusion.

But I find it worthwhile to discuss a little bit on the root cause why there are such differences between your and my understanding. I believe that is because my approach to Qur'an is totally different from your approach.

Here is where you begin to get dishonest?

My approach

My recognition of my Master does not begin from the Qur'an or the teaching of the messenger. My recognition of my Master comes from my observation of who I am and where I stand in relation to the universe. I recognize my Master by observing my own conscious mind - which I know cannot be a creation of accidental arrangement of matters. I recognize the handiwork of the Supreme Authority who has framed the heaven and earth in absolute mercy with absolute wisdom and in absolute justice.

I have seen that my Master's Mercy and active interest is NOT limited to any specific religion or sect - His mercy encompasses everyone. Even the child which is born today in the Chinese family who never heard of Prophet Muhammad or Qur'an is brought up with the same loving care of God that a "Muslim" child receives from its parents. The same sun gives heat to all, the same water meets their thirst. Each is endowed with the same faculty of freewill to think and chose their course of action - whether they should be humble and grateful for the gift of life and thereby act righteously towards all the fellow creatures OR whether they would be arrogant and live in a selfish world.

I have also seen that the nations which have performed more righteously, have acted upon higher ethical standards and effectively curbed corruption have indeed been blessed by our Master with a more equitable and livable society, whereas those nations who indulge in corruption and oppression end up in Jahannam in this very world - and this happens irrespective of religious affiliation of the nations.

So, this how I have found my Master - the One featuring Absolute Authority, Absolute Mercy and Absolute Justice. I do not dare to claim I understand my Master, I simply acknowledge I accept His authority and thereby I accept the responsibility that I should act righteously to all of His creations.

When I approach Qur'an, I seek the wisdom from my Master in it - and to the extent I find reflection of my Master in this book - I accept the "best" understanding from it. Whatever interpretation or understanding is devoid of logic or out of touch with the sense of right and wrong that my Master has endowed me has to go away and I keep searching for the understanding that makes perfect sense in light of my Master's absolute Mercy and absolute Justice. When I read with this set of mind I see that "the fraternity of the book" are a fortunate section of mankind who have access to higher wisdom through the messengers and books - but they are by no way meant to be the only salvaged group. Rather they have, by virtue of their fortune, a stricter test of making the best use of their knowledge. The community of the last messenger, in particular, is supposed to be brought for the benefit of mankind - not to rule over them or force entire mankind to convert into their own.

And thus I strive to take the most accommodating understanding from Qur'an with utter humility (which you interpret as foolishness).

Ok I hear you. That is wonderful, although you lack concrete explanation, I identify with the same intentions and feeling of reverence when approaching Quran as yourself.
But wait?.

Your approach (apparently)

You seem to have started from the notion that Allah is a deity who created the humans to play some sort of game with them. He sent His messenger to some people with His book in specific language, to make things more interesting He flooded the earth with numerous false / outdated messengers, and He left out the vast majority of the others out in the cold with a big challenge of finding the right messenger and right book to follow. Those who end up finding the right messenger and book will be salvaged - the rest go to hell. Whatever you read in the Qur'an you end up fitting it into your notion that only the people who accept Qur'an are God's favored people and the rest are doomed.

Where have you ever heard me make such ridiculous claims?
That is a complete lie and misrepresentation of character and beliefs.

You appear to be convinced that you have already hit the jackpot by finding the right book and the right messenger - so you have already become victorious over the rest of the world full of fools. This sense of victory gives you a unique confidence (which I interpret as arrogance) that enables you to consume all the benefits of science and yet show your middle finger to collective progress of human scientific endeavor by living in your flat earth of fantasy. It gives you enough confidence to promote hatred and enmity with everyone who does not agree with your religious ideas - including even those who strive to live peaceful and righteous life - thereby promoting the path of conflict, division and suffering - and still you consider yourself guided.

what?? Your perception of me could not be further from the truth.
Just because we have different ideologies does not make me this villain you are painting me out to be. I am sorry I am just not that guy you are describing. Talk about ad hominem huh?
I won?t even dignify these absurd accusations with further words.

The bad news is as long as our approaches are so fundamentally different we are definitely not going to agree on our understanding of Qur'an. The best we can try to do is to pray to Allah together to eventually guide us to the straight way. The good news is - in the end to the same Master is our return. Then He will judge between us - what in it that we were differing.

After insulting me you want us to pray together?

Fine, all forgiven. Let us humbly ask Allah to dispose of our affairs for us in the right way, in our next supplication to our Lord let us mention this matter and seek His judgement concerning it.

TO PUT A NAIL IN THE COFFIN OF YOUR OXYMORONIC OP

5719-21
19 And those who believe in Allah and His Messengers, they (are) the truthful and the martyrs, (are) with their Lord. For them (is) their reward and their light. But those who disbelieve and deny Our Verses, those (are the) companions (of) the Hellfire.
20 Know that the life (of) the world (is) play and amusement and adornment and boasting among you and competition in increase of the wealth and the children, like (the) example (of) a rain, pleases the tillers its growth; then it dries and you see it turning yellow; then becomes debris. And in the Hereafter (is) a punishment severe and forgiveness from Allah and Pleasure. But not (is) the life (of) the world except (the) enjoyment (of) delusion.
21 Race to (the) forgiveness from your Lord and a Garden its width (is) like (the) width (of) the heaven and the earth, prepared for those who believe in Allah and His Messengers. That (is the) Bounty (of) Allah, He gives (to) whom He wills. And Allah (is) the Possessor of Bounty, the Great.

28 O you who believe! Fear Allah and believe in His Messenger; He will give you double portion of His Mercy and He will make for you a light, you will walk with it, and He will forgive you. And Allah (is) Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.
29 So that may know (the) People (of) the Book that not they have power over anything from (the) Bounty (of) Allah, and that the Bounty (is) in Allah's Hand; He gives it whom He wills. And Allah (is) the Possessor of Bounty the Great.

28, those who believe are given a command Fear Allah and obey the Messenger to receive double portion of His Mercy and light (guidance) so that He can forgive us

29 You have a misconception about a lot of things, the People of the Book is not a term used to refer for the believers look at verse 29.

456 These (are the) Verses, (of) Allah We recite them to you in truth. Then in what statement after Allah and His Verses will they believe?

Atheists rather believe in man-made fictitious fables of low complexity self-evolving to high complexity. Something coming out of nothing with no causation.
They rather rely on their own knowledge and think they are self-sufficient and need not to answer to anyone.

Can these self-deluded boasters mu?min? How ill do you judge?

I am not completely clueless as you would like to think. I understand the OP, but whosever denies Allah, His Messenger and Books like the majority of atheists I know and the majority of those I do not personally know, will follow their own desires/shaytans and Allah will guide them astray unless they repent. You and your flawed rhetoric cannot protect them, they shall carry their own burdens and burdens with their burdens and BEWARE that yo will not earn some for what your flawed rhetoric may have unknowingly misguided some of them.

It would be exceptionally rare to imagine that someone who openly rejects Allah, the Hereafter and His Guidance can be guided to the Straight Path.
The point you are utterly and perhaps deliberately missing is that people do not guide themselves (the analogy of the man without a compass finding the way= way off), Allah is the only One Who can guide. And he does not guide the disbelievers. So stop this nonsense now.

To further destroy OP
Definition of Atheist according to American Atheists Inc.

Atheism may be defined as the mental attitude which unreservedly accepts the supremacy of reason and aims at establishing a life-style and ethical outlook verifiable by experience and scientific method, independent of all arbitrary assumptions of authority and creeds.

Materialism declares that the cosmos is devoid of immanent conscious purpose; that it is governed by its own inherent, immutable, and impersonal laws; that there is no supernatural interference in human life; that humankind -- finding their resources within themselves -- can and must create their own destiny. Materialism restores dignity and intellectual integrity to humanity. It teaches that we must prize our life on earth and strive always to improve it. It holds that human beings are capable of creating a social system based on reason and justice. Materialism's "faith" is in humankind and their ability to transform the world culture by their own efforts. This is a commitment which is in its very essence life-asserting. It considers the struggle for progress as a moral obligation that is impossible without noble ideas that inspire us to bold, creative works. Materialism holds that our potential for good and more fulfilling cultural development is, for all practical purposes, unlimited.

Definition of atheism
1
archaic ungodliness, wickedness
2
a a disbelief in the existence of deity
b the doctrine that there is no deity

The definition proves that the question in the OP is an oxymoron. It is a contradicting statement, one who denies faith in Allah and the Last Day cannot be one who puts faith in Allah

Definition of moralist

Simple Definition of moralist
a person who has strong feelings and opinions about what is right and who tries to control the moral behavior of other people

Definition of morals

Simple Definition of moral
concerning or relating to what is right and wrong in human behavior
based on what you think is right and good
considered right and good by most people agreeing with a standard of right behavior

Everyone has a different standard of morality.
The definition of morality highlight how they pertain to a particular system of principles or rules of conduct. Who determines these rules for the atheist?
Mostly they will follow the tules of conduct that seem right to their own judgement, because they follow their own desires.

We know in the Quran the fate of the arrogant who deny the guidance and follow their own desires.

FINALLY about the minimum condition/requirement

You are able to reason how that Command entails more than what you read at first glance exactly because of other Signs in the Quran which support this notion, yet when it comes to believing and righteous deeds you conveniently claim there is a minimum, what happened to all the other Signs in the Quran that call for believing in the Messengers and the Books, are you in charge of censorship? With what authority do you exclude or include what Allah requires from His servants that He may forgive them? You have no such authority.
You are simply in the wrong about this Arman.
This was an example to actually show you that the Signs should not be taken into account into isolation without knowledge of the entire Book. You actually supported my thesis.
You had to have prior knowledge of the other signs that refer to your presumed three conditions in order to claim that this ayaat included them.
In the same manner one would have to have knowledge of the entire Book to truly understand what believing and committing righteous deeds entail.
Based on my knowledge of the Quran believing includes believing in ALL that is from Allah, with no exception Arman and the righteous deeds do not simply convey acting according to morality but it is more than that and you know they include salat, zakat, fasting, abstinence, avoiding consuming alcohol, blood, pork or consuming that which Allah?s name was not mentioned on, handing bridal dues before marriage and etcetera. Most atheists disregard most of these and would ridicule us for presumingly fobidding ourselves to enjoy bacon and sex.

Atheists do not acknowledge a Creator, would you agree? They do not acknowledge creation, right?
Your understanding of acknowledgment of Allah is wanting. The acknowledgement of Allah includes acceptance and admitting that He is the Supreme Creator who created ALL. Atheists fundamentally reject this.
Now look at the fate of the atheists in the Quran

5641 And those on the left, who will be from those on the left?
5642 In fierce hot winds and boiling water.
5643 And a shade that is unpleasant.
5644 Neither cool, nor helpful.
5645 They used to be indulged in luxury before this.
5646 And they persisted in the great oathbreaking.
5647 And they used to say ?After we die and turn to dust and bones, we will get resurrected??
5648 ?And also our fathers of old??
5649 Say ?The people of old and the later generations,?
5650 ?Will be summoned to a meeting on a predetermined Day.?
5651 ?Then you, O rejecting strayers,?
5652 ?Will eat from the tree of Bitterness,?
5653 ?Filling your bellies therefrom,?
5654 ?Then drinking on top of it boiling water,?
5655 ?So you will drink like diseased camels!?
5656 Such is their share on the Day of Recompense.
5657 We created you, so why (do) not you admit the truth?

END of story .

Think about all these evidences and tone down the fabrications please and think "long and hard" and try to address all my arguments if you will.

Regards,

Herman

Armanaziz

Let us humbly ask Allah to dispose of our affairs for us in the right way, in our next supplication to our Lord let us mention this matter and seek His judgement concerning it.

Amin.

alihawa

Salam alihawa.

You are entitled to have your opinion.

I guess the only question to which you would expect my response is ?But those misled thinking are their problem, aren't they? Not ours for sure.?

I am not so sure, though. Yes, those who are misled in their thinking are misled for their own peril. It is indeed their problem. But in some ways it is also our problem. Our problem is how we define our attitude and our behavior towards them.

If one subscribes to extemist ideologies (ISIL and gong) ? people who are misled in their thinking about God create ?opportunity? for the so called ?Muslims? to take their daughters as slaves and take their wealth as war-booty. IT IS OUR PROBLEM to decide whether Qur?an really tells that all who do not ?BELIEVE? in God are kafirs and thereby at constant war with Muslims, or otherwise. We as a community need to sort out this problem first before we preach others about religious tolerance and diversity. And that is why it is so fundamental to understand what is ?Faith? ? is it believing in some dogmas or is it acceptance of some principles. To me it is clearly the second. Hope you find your own answer, soon.

May Allah guide us all to the straight way.

Regards,
Arman

Dear Arman,

Imho, those atheist are surely kafir, so we must treat them as such. But we should not make war on them unless they make war on us.

If you want to be clear on your understanding about iman, i think 82 gives clear features of the people who have iman (mu'min). Atheists, regardless of their "good" attitude, are clearly far away from those criteria.

Q 82
"The believers are those whom, when God is mentioned, their hearts reverence; and when His revelations are recited to them, it increases their faith; and they put their trust in their Lord."

I hope this help you get clearer understanding about this matter.

P.s do you know that this very thread and thought you are promoting is in line with those atheist agenda and main propaganda? They want to look good in the eyes of the people so they can recruit and convert more people to be one of them. I know that you did not meant to, but you just make a clear support to their effort.

http//i67.tinypic.com/345bu4g.jpg

Salam

Armanaziz

Salam brother.

You have some valid points there. The term Mu?min has various different forms in Qur?an. Specifically, the normative plural form ?Mu?minun? seems to refer to a very specific description of people who place their faith upon the God, His messenger and His book (the Qur'an). On the other hand the accusative form ?Mu?mineen? seems to imply a more generic understanding of ?faithful? people who have faithfulness in them as a quality. There is clearly a ranking in the level of faith/Iman (Ref 82) and it is not a binary factor.

I agree that those who are atheist are not qualified to be called ?Mu?minun?. Given the various possible definitions of the term ?mumin? perhaps instead of asking whether moralist atheists can be mu?min, I should have better asked whether we can generalize all atheists as unfaithful / kafir. To this revised question my answer still resides in the negative.

Per my understanding, being good for goodness?es sake and being good for God?s sake (or seeking God?s face) is synonymous. The moment one acknowledges obligation to the concept of goodness without seeking any worldly return, one expresses an implied understanding that life has a purpose greater than following one?s whims ? and such understanding has ?submission to a superior authority? built into them. Per my humble understanding the strength of faith depends on how firmly one adheres to this obligation ? not on how accurate one?s dogmas are.

Believing in God and afterlife, as recommended in Qur?an, undoubtedly helps bolster our faith, and the brand of atheist who are bent on mocking and deviating people from God?s path are no doubt wrongdoers. But my point was we need to be very careful to generalize upon the group known as non-believer or atheists. Some of them may actually be faithful at heart but intellectually they are still searching for the face of God.

May Allah guide us all to the straight way.

Regards,
Arman

alihawa

Salam brother.

You have some valid points there. The term Mumin has various different forms in Quran. Specifically, the normative plural form Muminun seems to refer to a very specific description of people who place their faith upon the God, His messenger and His book (the Qur'an). On the other hand the accusative form Mumineen seems to imply a more generic understanding of faithful people who have faithfulness in them as a quality. There is clearly a ranking in the level of faith/Iman (Ref 82) and it is not a binary factor.

I agree that those who are atheist are not qualified to be called Muminun. Given the various possible definitions of the term mumin perhaps instead of asking whether moralist atheists can be mumin, I should have better asked whether we can generalize all atheists as unfaithful / kafir. To this revised question my answer still resides in the negative.

Per my understanding, being good for goodnesses sake and being good for Gods sake (or seeking Gods face) is synonymous. The moment one acknowledges obligation to the concept of goodness without seeking any worldly return, one expresses an implied understanding that life has a purpose greater than following ones whims and such understanding has submission to a superior authority built into them. Per my humble understanding the strength of faith depends on how firmly one adheres to this obligation not on how accurate ones dogmas are.

Believing in God and afterlife, as recommended in Quran, undoubtedly helps bolster our faith, and the brand of atheist who are bent on mocking and deviating people from Gods path are no doubt wrongdoers. But my point was we need to be very careful to generalize upon the group known as non-believer or atheists. Some of them may actually be faithful at heart but intellectually they are still searching for the face of God.

May Allah guide us all to the straight way.

Regards,
Arman

Dear Arman,

thank you for your current understanding that atheist can not be a mu'min.

About your next question about "can we generalize all atheist as kafir?" my opinion is yes and my argument is based on these verses

Q 4523
Have you seen the one who took his desire as his god, and God led him astray, despite his knowledge, and He sealed his hearing and
his heart, and He made a veil on his eyes? Who then can guide him after God? Will you not remember?

Q 2543
Have you seen the one who has taken his desire as his god? Will you be a caretaker over him?

Q 3029
No, those who were wrong followed their desires without knowledge. So who can guide he whom God misguides? And they will have no victors.

maybe my understanding about kafir and polytheist is mixed up. those verses talk about people who follow their desire (can be their thinking, paradigm, or just wants) as their source of truth. they deny that the source of truth is from God and they believe that their thinking and paradigm can be the source of truth itself.

being good for goodness sake is not the same with being good for God's command. the behavior might look the same but the intention is not. the first take his/her thinking as the source of truth, while the latter surrender it to God.

these people has made their self a god by replacing God authority as a ruler to define what is right and wrong. they refuse to accept that their understanding about goodness is from God and claimed that it is because of their effort where God has nothing to do with it.

just like zakir naik said in one of his speech, atheist are the one who already said "La ilaha", if God will, they will continue it by adding "illallah"

i hope i share the same optimism that those atheist are actively searching for the truth, but one thing is clear. those atheist do the thinking about God, while many others do not think at all and follow their parents blindly. unfortunately for them, they will go to hell if they did not repent.

may God increase our understanding

HP_TECH