Why does the Quran and Bible describe the Sun as going around the Earth?
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People laugh, but the 'Flat Earthers' know something.
Do they know what's on the other side...?
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Other side of what? You mean below of the earth or outside the flat-earth?
Looked it up...haven't found mention of the underside, at least so far, but I did read this
http//wiki.tfes.org/Frequently_Asked_Questions
The earth is surrounded on all sides by an ice wall that holds the oceans back. This ice wall is what explorers have named Antarctica. Beyond the ice wall is a topic of great interest to the Flat Earth Society. To our knowledge, no one has been very far past the ice wall and returned to tell of their journey. What we do know is that it encircles the earth and serves to hold in our oceans and helps protect us from whatever lies beyond.
So, it's Game of Thrones pretty much.
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So there are immense amounts of "fake" imagery depicting a spherical Earth, but no imagery showing the edge of the flat Earth? Where's the edge? We do have airplanes that fly in the sky, yet no photos of the edge. Odd indeed! How to explain that?
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The curvature of the Earth becomes obvious when observing sea vessels moving far away from you on the open sea... they clearly "cross" the horizon either appearing or disappearing from top to bottom. Further more, the curvature becomes even more visible when flying an air craft. These are empirical observations, and not something we are taught through brainwashing. How to explain this?
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I guess the Flat Earth people consider mathematics as something fake and false, just brainwash. They must think that math ACTUALLY doesn't work, and it just seems to work. I mean, already people in ancient times have calculated things like the length of the equator... oops, sorry, the equator doesn't exist.
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Regarding propulsion in space. It is not true that the jet stream pushes on something in order for the space craft to move ahead. This thinking is a result of faulty imagination/thought experiment. Just try it with a water hose. Does it only want to move when it is close to the ground or an object? TRY it out. Don't just think it out. Doesn't the laws of physics say that for each force there is an equal and opposite force? Mass and velocity of jet gasses on one side of the equation and mass and velocity of the space craft on the other side. Also, how the heck would a simple propeller plane function if the propeller blades didn't push against something. And NO! The propeller does NOT create a solid column of air molecules behind it, which in turn would need to push against some tower or something fixed to the ground. And by what mechanism would air molecules be grabbed from the vicinity and stacked between the propeller blade and the molecule column??? So how does propeller planes work, in air? Must be the same principle as in vacuum according to this theory. Even if there is no vacuum in the air, the air still contains empty space between the molecules. Air is not a liquid or solid!
Please!
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Salaam brother Zulf,
The reaction-based (rea) engine works utilizing gravity just like any other engine humans have been able to invent for flights. It will be less efficient if gravity is reduced but not completely useless unless under no gravity field at all which is not true since there is gravity in the whole solar system, even if far from a planet our current technology will make the engine very ineffective and waste fuel, so scientists make sure the vessel has its predestined heading and takes a "free ride" by using gravity from a planet or other body.
I do not argue against you or anything, just filling in for those who need.
The point is that our current engines are effectively usable only until a certain distance from the departure point and after that the craft floats until it reaches another strong gravity field to place itself in orbit.
If you push matter behind you somewhere this phenomenon will give you propulsion and a rocket-engine delivers thrust by ignition of rocket fuel with exhausts behind the craft causing it to move forwards away from the gravity source. This crude but useful technology is what we have right now even if scientists are working on something they call an 'ion engine'. You can read about it in science magazines. It will multiple the speed several times compared to the engine type we use today.
And theoreticians are also working on ways to make hovercrafts based on anti-gravity technology but that is mostly science-fiction today. If they manage to tame the laws of nature you will see that gravity is for real. The only problem is that they would use so much energy you need the energy from a whole nuclear power plant to feed it.
And there are also experiments not too far away to make artificial gravity. In fact they already know how but only they need to find some viable way to project this field without wasting too much energy.
And Zulf gave a good example with the disappearing ships and airplanes in the horizon which testify that the Earth is a sphere. And not to mention satellite communication which is dependent on the tilting of the Earth. You cannot establish satellite communication with every satellite on Earth due to the above phenomenon of a spherical planet.
Somehow this reminds about religious dogma of the past which for centuries fought against science in the argument flat vs spherical Earth, and often religious nutjobs were able to convince a grand majority of people and thus halt scientific progress and take the community backwards, usually due to interpretation of some religious text which take precedence over rationality and logic and even empirical experiments.
Salaam
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Do they know what's on the other side...?
Tails ;D
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- So there are immense amounts of "fake" imagery depicting a spherical Earth, but no imagery showing the edge of the flat Earth? Where's the edge? We do have airplanes that fly in the sky, yet no photos of the edge. Odd indeed! How to explain that?
I think there are photos which show the giant ice wall, but I still don't find photo which shows the outside of the ice wall.
Maybe because there's a sky dome/ceiling/canopy like what is described in the Qur'an, and it seems that the Bible also describes the sky as such.
Perhaps the sky dome looks similar like this.
http//image.slidesharecdn.com/13862451-flat-earth-koran-05-of-13-the-solid-sky-dome-110115112231-phpapp01/95/13862451-flatearthkoran05of13thesolidskydome-3-728.jpg?cb=1295112928
I think it's possible that human cannot pass that "barrier."
- The curvature of the Earth becomes obvious when observing sea vessels moving far away from you on the open sea... they clearly "cross" the horizon either appearing or disappearing from top to bottom.
I hope someday I can answer this. There's so much to learn for me now. I suppose for me it's like learning about nature from the beginning again, so I don't think that I could give satisfying answer for each of your questions.
But, it would be nice if you brother, try to open your mind and start to study yourself about this issue, maybe you could learn about this faster than me.
Further more, the curvature becomes even more visible when flying an air craft. These are empirical observations, and not something we are taught through brainwashing. How to explain this?
I don't think we can see earth curvature from aircraft. Are you sure that you can see the curvature from the aircraft?
I have not checked this myself. The time when I got in a plane, I was still not aware of this issue, so I did not really pay attention to the sight below the aircraft.
But I already discussed this with my friend whose father is a pilot.
- I guess the Flat Earth people consider mathematics as something fake and false, just brainwash. They must think that math ACTUALLY doesn't work, and it just seems to work. I mean, already people in ancient times have calculated things like the length of the equator... oops, sorry, the equator doesn't exist.
The simple math can helps to understand that the earth is not a globe.
However, I suppose it seems useless and tiring to talk about this with those who do not want to free their minds and already resist in the beginning and/or ridicule us.
Please!
Yes, please start to study this issue, brother. God willing, it'll be useful.
Peace.
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The same fallacy as with salateh and other false inferences in Quran you rather take a false interpretation of it than to apply reason and logic, and try to investigate where the failing link is in interpretation.
And traditional interpretation of Quran does say Earth is round and not flat.
Salaam
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Thanks JavaLatte. Nice to see someone with an open mind.
Man of Faith while you are busy blaming false interpretations aren't you just trying to find an interpretation that fits your beliefs? Let's look at the following verses from chapter 41.
419 Say ?You are rejecting the One who has created the earth in two days, and you set up equals with Him. That is the Lord of the
worlds.?
4110 And He placed in it stabilizers from above it, and He blessed it and established its provisions in proportion in four days, to satisfy
those who ask.
4111 Then He settled to the heaven, while it was still smoke, and He said to it, and to the earth ?Come willingly or unwillingly.? They
said ?We come willingly.?
4112 Thus, He then made them into seven heavens in two days, and He inspired to every heaven its affair. And We adorned the lowest
heaven with lamps, and for protection. Such is the design of the Noble, the Knowledgeable.According to this God created the Earth first and then made the seven heavens. I'm curious to see your interpretation of this.
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No. I am trying to find an interpretation that suits the truth and not a false inference for whatever reason, deliberate or ignorant.
Salaam
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The Art of Balancing => Proves that the Earth is motionless!
? https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=OGRUf1PLJdY
? https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ykp2x3tv0jk
? https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=el4uoTUDRds
? https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=5F9cjGl37AI
It would be impossible for those men to do those kind of things on a spinning globe.
Think about it. Peace.
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We need to not just think about it, but rather to think thoroughly.
WHY would it be impossible to balance things like in those you tube clips if Earth was moving? Why? We must have some arguments otherwise we have no case.
Let's make an experiment. I'm sure anyone who has been riding a car, or aircraft, has done this. Anyone can try it Just take an object, like a tennis-ball or some keys or whatever, and throw them up a little bit while you sit in your seat. After they leave your hand, do they suddenly fly to the back of the car? No they don't, even though the car is moving at a high speed. Why? It's because the air inside the car is standing still in relation to you. There is no speed wind in side the car. Same thing with Earth. Things are not affected by the rotational speed of Earth simply because the air is "held" still by gravity. Air is also matter you know. And, why would things be unstable just because Earth rotates?? There is no "space air" which would create drag in the "Earth air" as Earth rotates in empty space. Simply, there is nothing to affect Earth in space. Also, more importantly, Earth is rotating at a constant speed! There is no acceleration or deceleration so obviously nothing can be noticed. Even in a car you wont notice the speed UNLESS you change direction (turn) or you increase or decrease speed (accelerate or break). Yes, you notice bumps, but hey, Earth doesn't role on a space road! The rotation of Earth is unnoticeable simply because there is no change in the motion. The rotation is determined by observation of objects in space, like the sun, moon, stars etc, not by feeling the wind in your hair.
Peace
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Good elaboration, Zulf.
Salaam
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Shalom Aleikhem,
Hi All,
If you read the Quran and the Bible it quite clearly describes the Sun as going around the Earth. I can't see how the translations and words could mean anything else. Does anyone else agree with this?
Thanks
Unless the Qur'an explicitly mentions that the sun and the moon orbits the earth, there is still a way left for anyone who is willing to believe otherwise to believe otherwise. From what I understand, the verses in the Qur'an seem to be describing something an observer would have seen and noticed with naked eyes. I drew this picture for helping me illustrate this point
http//s12.postimg.org/k1zbfa4y5/randy.png
Look at this picture and try to put yourself in the shoes of Randy (I named the guy Randy D). Now consider the following verses
2133 And He is the One who has created the night and the day, and the sun and the moon, each swimming in an orbit.
So, the verse isn't saying anything Randy wouldn't have noticed on his own. Now consider this verse
3640 The sun is not required to overtake the moon, nor will the night precede the day; each of them is swimming in its own orbit.
Just as Randy would have observed as you can see from that illustration above. ANYONE who simply observed what the sun and the moon does would have figured that much. On top of that, humanity was well aware of eclipses thousands of years before Muhammad was even born.
The point I am trying to make here is
- The Qur'an doesn't necessarily outright say that the sun and the moon are orbiting the earth.
- The Qur'an doesn't say anything that a normal observer wouldn't have figured out on their own.
I think that the topic should have been discussed in the Science section of the Forum.
Peace
--------------- Student of Allah -
Despite that the sun and the moon aren't having orbits with centers at Earth, their apparent paths across the sky is according to a fixed pattern. The moon's orbit is centered at Earth, while the Sun's orbit is not, yet they both move in paths across the sky in a totally regular manner. So one could imagine that something is linking the Sun and the moon to Earth. However, it's not a geocentric model, rather it is simply the Rotation of Earth. The rotation itself gives EVERYTHING an apparent orbit around Earth.
The quran tell about the regularity, which is obvious to the naked eye. The quran is mentioning orbits (if that's what the word actually means) however doesn't specify the center of the orbits.Peace
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It is unfortunate that some seemingly have not read the thread. Let me repeat
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9607169.msg362187#msg362187Specifically
It also says the night cannot outstrip the day, which is interesting considering we know they both exist simultaneously on earth, the word here means one cannot get in front of the other, which again, fits.
Let me clarify it further
the night cannot outstrip/forerun the daytime
Meaning the night cannot go in front of the daytime, thus there are only two possibilities of interpreting this
Since we know the pattern is
etc .............. day / night / day / night / day / night...................... etcIt therefore depends on what your starting point of reference is, i.e. if you make "day" first, and "night" second, then it is true to say that night cannot go before day. HOWEVER, some might argue that requires an arbitrary starting point, i.e. choosing "day" as first.
Secondly, we know some days in certain months have long daytime / short night, and vice versa, long night and short daytime - thus one could say night is outstripping the daytime, e.g. in winter.- night and daytime MUST both exist simultaneously on earth, hence one cannot go in front of the other. There is no ifs and buts, or arbitrary choosing or debate. It is a fact that night cannot outstrip/forerun the daytime with this interpretation.
Secondly, since we know the region of Arabia gets a regular pattern of daytime/night cycles, meaning when they experience daytime this would mean elsewhere on earth experiences night. Ponder over what this tells you about the earth/sun.
YOU choose what is more reasonable (1) or (2).
For me personally, I do not mind (1) but (2) seems more eloquent/precise/powerful. Further, if we consider the Classical Arabic meanings of FLK, and simple observations of sun/moon shape, we can reasonably deduce the earth is similar in shape. Thus, we have a spherical/round earth, wherein simultaneous night/daytime occur.
http//www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm
Fa-Lam-Kaf = become round, anything circular, persist/persevere, ship, Ark, the place of the revolving of the stars, the celestial sphere, vault of heaven, firmament, surrounding spheres, sky, revolvement, circling, circuit, going to and fro, in a state of commotion, whirl of a spindle, one who goes round.
falak n.m. 2133, 3640
Dal-Ha-Waw (Dal-Ha-Alif) = To hurl, spread forth, expand, stretch out, cast away, extend, drive along.
daha vb. (1) perf. act. 7930
- night and daytime MUST both exist simultaneously on earth, hence one cannot go in front of the other. There is no ifs and buts, or arbitrary choosing or debate. It is a fact that night cannot outstrip/forerun the daytime with this interpretation.
