Why does the Quran and Bible describe the Sun as going around the Earth?
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Hi All,
If you read the Quran and the Bible it quite clearly describes the Sun as going around the Earth. I can't see how the translations and words could mean anything else. Does anyone else agree with this?
Thanks
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Hi,
Could you post the verses you are referring to? I doubt it "clearly" says what you are claiming.
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Quran-2133 ?It is He who created The Night and Day, And the Sun and Moon; each of them Swim (float) along in its own course.?
Qur'an 911-2 "By the sun and his brightness, And the moon when she followeth him"Qur'an 3637-40 "A token unto them is night. We strip it of the day, and lo! they are in darkness and the sun runneth on unto a resting-place for him. That is the measuring of the Mighty, the Wise. And for the moon We have appointed mansions till she return like an old shrivelled palm-leaf. It is not for the sun to overtake the moon, nor doth the night outstrip the day. They float each in an orbit."
"He (God) can command the sun not to rise." (Job 97) Rather than, "He can command the earth to stop (moving/spinning)." That God would direct such a command at the sun rather than the earth, implies an unmistakably geocentric perspective. Likewise, Martin Luther pointed out that "Joshua commanded the sun to stand still and not the earth," since the earth was presumed to be at rest at all times. (Josh. 1012)
The Bible also states "...the sun rises and the sun sets; And hastening to its place it rises there again." (Eccles. 15; NASB) "Rising" and "setting" may be easy to explain away due to one's earth-bound perspective, but speaking of the sun "hastening to its place" so that it may rise again, is not so easy to explain away. It means the author of Ecclesiastes believed that the sun moved daily around the earth. Compare Psalm 194-6, "In He has placed a tent for the sun, which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber; it rejoices like a strong man to run its course, its rising from one end of the heavens, and its circuit to the other end of them."
Likewise, the Bible states that stars "course" (move) through the heavens, "From their courses they fought against Sisera." (Judges 520, NASB) God "leads forth" the stars, "The One who leads forth their host by number...Because of the greatness of His might and the strength of His power not one is missing." (Isaiah 4026, NASB) Constellations are "led forth" in their season "Can you bind the chains of the Pleadies or loose the cords of Orion? Can you lead forth a constellation in its season, And guide the Bear with her satellites? Do you know the ordinances of the heavens, Or fix their rule over the earth?" (Job 3831-33, NASB)
http//www.talkorigins.org/faqs/ce/2/part5.html.
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None of the Quranic verses describe the sun moving around the earth. I don't see where you get that?
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Hi Ted! What is your purpose of coming on this website? I'm just curious.
Is it to discredit religions? Certainly they are all discredited.
Is it to lead people away from religions? Certainly, there are many who have left (a great pool of friends for you to choose from potentially)!
Is it that you're genuinely curious about this particular religion or religions in general? Then this place has lots of interesting discussions to look through surely.
Feel free to ask me any questions you actually and genuinely want to know about, and you can email me as well if you prefer at [email protected] and you can ask about any religion, I know a bit about a bunch of them.
Please do not ask me anything you don't want to know about, there are few things more hateful to me than people who ask questions and don't actually want to hear answers to them at all.
Most Muslims will tend to respond to accusations like the one you have made here by saying it is a misunderstanding, a mis-translation, and that it doesn't actually even occur in the Qur'an.
My approach is a little different, because I try to encourage people to what might be considered a "higher" state of mind, or for those who object to something being called "higher", a "lower" or "more humble" state of understanding, and for those who object to even that phrasing, such are contentious people who love to dispute over petty things.
If your intention is to come to this website to harass people, I would recommend you take the opportunity to focus your harassment onto me rather than bothering the other members, thereby something of value may (or may not) be produced, though I do not believe one benefits themselves by acting like a force of nature necessarily, and instead one should come to seek knowledge or lay their intentions out in a straightforward manner.
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Quran-2133 ?It is He who created The Night and Day, And the Sun and Moon; each of them Swim (float) along in its own course.?
Qur'an 911-2 "By the sun and his brightness, And the moon when she followeth him"Qur'an 3637-40 "A token unto them is night. We strip it of the day, and lo! they are in darkness and the sun runneth on unto a resting-place for him. That is the measuring of the Mighty, the Wise. And for the moon We have appointed mansions till she return like an old shrivelled palm-leaf. It is not for the sun to overtake the moon, nor doth the night outstrip the day. They float each in an orbit."
The verses above are pretty clear to me. For example the Sun following the moon, the Sun runneth on unto a resting-place, the Sun not able to overtake the moon. God could have just put a few words in to say the Earth rotates but you mankind see it as the Sun and stars rising and setting.
In a separate note, can someone please advise me if i can get those dam captchas removed everytime I make a post. It's real annoying having to verify each post.
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bear in mind the sun also orbits in the milky way
Thanks. I have read that. Can you please explain why the Quran would say the moon follows the sun or that the sun cannot overtake the moon?
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Hi Ted! What is your purpose of coming on this website? I'm just curious.
Is it to discredit religions? Certainly they are all discredited.
Is it to lead people away from religions? Certainly, there are many who have left (a great pool of friends for you to choose from potentially)!
Is it that you're genuinely curious about this particular religion or religions in general? Then this place has lots of interesting discussions to look through surely.
Feel free to ask me any questions you actually and genuinely want to know about, and you can email me as well if you prefer at [email protected] and you can ask about any religion, I know a bit about a bunch of them.
Please do not ask me anything you don't want to know about, there are few things more hateful to me than people who ask questions and don't actually want to hear answers to them at all.
Most Muslims will tend to respond to accusations like the one you have made here by saying it is a misunderstanding, a mis-translation, and that it doesn't actually even occur in the Qur'an.
My approach is a little different, because I try to encourage people to what might be considered a "higher" state of mind, or for those who object to something being called "higher", a "lower" or "more humble" state of understanding, and for those who object to even that phrasing, such are contentious people who love to dispute over petty things.
If your intention is to come to this website to harass people, I would recommend you take the opportunity to focus your harassment onto me rather than bothering the other members, thereby something of value may (or may not) be produced, though I do not believe one benefits themselves by acting like a force of nature necessarily, and instead one should come to seek knowledge or lay their intentions out in a straightforward manner.
I am here to learn. I respect all religions. I'm here to challenge peoples thinking and hopefully understand/get to the truth.
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I am here to learn. I respect all religions. I'm here to challenge peoples thinking and hopefully understand/get to the truth.
I think if that is your intention then you may really enjoy talking to me. I know about and relate a great deal of religions and concepts from around the world.
Now there are two ways to approach this
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We take what we assume something must mean.
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We make things mean what they might have meant, and even if they didn't, we take advantage of the linguistic frameworks presented and ideas presented by thinking of them in useful and effective ways or converting them to our use.
The first method is passive, and most people generally think they are following the passive method (but really, it is always active generally, but they allow themselves to assume things about a text and allow those assumptions to guide them).
The second method is my method, I make the texts say what I want them to say in accordance with reality, and if they don't say what I want them to say, or if I can't make them say what I want them to say, then they aren't particularly important or useful to me.
In that sense, the religion is with me, and these other things become linguistic frameworks we can use towards confirming or achieving our agenda.
The agenda isn't "truth", because that which we call "truth" is often a mental trap which can take people far away from the "Eternal Truth". To know that "truth" is only what is confirmed for us "now" and can be anything else in any other "now" without our realizing it, or with our realizing it, makes what is "true now" not as relevant as the "Eternal Truth" and understanding what is truly "Absolute" and "Beyond" the mundane "truth" which is just information which can change in an instant even and is just generated from the "Eternal Truth" which can switch anything freely because it is unbounded and Ultimate. So in a sense
"Nothing is true (except the Eternal Truth)"
So the agenda is to create if possible the best circumstances we can in the moment we exist and in the moment we are dealing with based on the information available to us or "which appears real" at that time. That is, "right conduct" according to the circumstances, and "right conduct" is whatever and however we can derive the "best results" and the "best results" are those which reduce suffering as much as possible and risk of suffering, while increasing pleasure as much as possible, and the most lasting suffering is the worst sort of suffering, and the most lasting pleasure is the best sort of pleasure.
To achieve the goal, the Ultimate Goal, "everything is permissible (to achieve the Ultimate Goal)" but that does not mean doing anything, it means that the information may change entirely, and whatever we are faced with we should remain on this course of "hedonism" if you don't mind that term, which in this sense means seeking the most lasting pleasure and avoiding harm in the short term as well as the long term, particularly the most lasting sort of suffering in as much as is possible in any moment.
That is also the "Assassin's Creed", though it has been understood differently by different people throughout history, it doesn't really matter what it was supposed to mean, because we take "Option 2" which is using terms and sentences in advantageous ways, turning them to our use, making them alive with meanings that can be useful and effective for us, not passively relying on what we assume it might have meant only, but taking words as material, sentences as swords, and making them sharp for our own uses.
That is why, if the Qur'an intended to say that the sun revolves around the Earth, it is irrelevant, because it can also be made to say something else more in accordance to what we know now, and regardless, even the "truth" is irrelevant when it comes to the "Eternal Truth" which is what generates any "truth" and can change it or exchange it, and turn "falsehood" into "truth" just as easily.
You may not find among the people on this website anyone with ideas similar to mine, but you will find my ideas, if understood, among some of the sharpest and most useful weapons you could have in your arsenal of understanding.
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I think if that is your intention then you may really enjoy talking to me. I know about and relate a great deal of religions and concepts from around the world.
Now there are two ways to approach this
-
We take what we assume something must mean.
-
We make things mean what they might have meant, and even if they didn't, we take advantage of the linguistic frameworks presented and ideas presented by thinking of them in useful and effective ways or converting them to our use.
The first method is passive, and most people generally think they are following the passive method (but really, it is always active generally, but they allow themselves to assume things about a text and allow those assumptions to guide them).
The second method is my method, I make the texts say what I want them to say in accordance with reality, and if they don't say what I want them to say, or if I can't make them say what I want them to say, then they aren't particularly important or useful to me.
In that sense, the religion is with me, and these other things become linguistic frameworks we can use towards confirming or achieving our agenda.
The agenda isn't "truth", because that which we call "truth" is often a mental trap which can take people far away from the "Eternal Truth". To know that "truth" is only what is confirmed for us "now" and can be anything else in any other "now" without our realizing it, or with our realizing it, makes what is "true now" not as relevant as the "Eternal Truth" and understanding what is truly "Absolute" and "Beyond" the mundane "truth" which is just information which can change in an instant even and is just generated from the "Eternal Truth" which can switch anything freely because it is unbounded and Ultimate. So in a sense
"Nothing is true (except the Eternal Truth)"
So the agenda is to create if possible the best circumstances we can in the moment we exist and in the moment we are dealing with based on the information available to us or "which appears real" at that time. That is, "right conduct" according to the circumstances, and "right conduct" is whatever and however we can derive the "best results" and the "best results" are those which reduce suffering as much as possible and risk of suffering, while increasing pleasure as much as possible, and the most lasting suffering is the worst sort of suffering, and the most lasting pleasure is the best sort of pleasure.
To achieve the goal, the Ultimate Goal, "everything is permissible (to achieve the Ultimate Goal)" but that does not mean doing anything, it means that the information may change entirely, and whatever we are faced with we should remain on this course of "hedonism" if you don't mind that term, which in this sense means seeking the most lasting pleasure and avoiding harm in the short term as well as the long term, particularly the most lasting sort of suffering in as much as is possible in any moment.
That is also the "Assassin's Creed", though it has been understood differently by different people throughout history, it doesn't really matter what it was supposed to mean, because we take "Option 2" which is using terms and sentences in advantageous ways, turning them to our use, making them alive with meanings that can be useful and effective for us, not passively relying on what we assume it might have meant only, but taking words as material, sentences as swords, and making them sharp for our own uses.
That is why, if the Qur'an intended to say that the sun revolves around the Earth, it is irrelevant, because it can also be made to say something else more in accordance to what we know now, and regardless, even the "truth" is irrelevant when it comes to the "Eternal Truth" which is what generates any "truth" and can change it or exchange it, and turn "falsehood" into "truth" just as easily.
You may not find among the people on this website anyone with ideas similar to mine, but you will find my ideas, if understood, among some of the sharpest and most useful weapons you could have in your arsenal of understanding.
Wow, deep stuff.
I think we have to first acknowledge which reality we live in. We need to understand that reality and accept it. Having an "Eternal Truth" seems pointless in our reality. We need to understand what the truth is in this reality and take it from there. We know we exist, animals exist, gravity exists, stars exist. All these things have laws and physical attributes. We also have subjective reality which is actually the most important one in my opinion which also has bounds and limitations however it's a bit more difficult to test.
In short, we have the Quran. It claims to be a revelation from God. Any revelation of God is going to be the according to the reality of the world we live in. In order to verify truth God has given us science to verify it. If something in the Quran does not comply with science then either our science is wrong or the Quran is not the revelation of God. Science has been proven to be wrong many times, or to put it more accurately human interpretation of observations have been wrong many times. So either we need to check our observations more thoroughly or accept that the Quran is wrong or being ambiguous.
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Wow, deep stuff.
I think we have to first acknowledge which reality we live in. We need to understand that reality and accept it. Having an "Eternal Truth" seems pointless in our reality. We need to understand what the truth is in this reality and take it from there. We know we exist, animals exist, gravity exists, stars exist. All these things have laws and physical attributes. We also have subjective reality which is actually the most important one in my opinion which also has bounds and limitations however it's a bit more difficult to test.
In short, we have the Quran. It claims to be a revelation from God. Any revelation of God is going to be the according to the reality of the world we live in. In order to verify truth God has given us science to verify it. If something in the Quran does not comply with science then either our science is wrong or the Quran is not the revelation of God. Science has been proven to be wrong many times, or to put it more accurately human interpretation of observations have been wrong many times. So either we need to check our observations more thoroughly or accept that the Quran is wrong or being ambiguous.
Yes, the reality you exist in though exists only as far as you can access it, and the only access you have to it is whatever information is available to you right "now". There is no revelation or word in this world, however false or however true, that does not come from the same ultimate generator of information. So it isn't a matter if this is a revelation from God or not. You doing diarrhea is a revelation from God as well. The point is how useful we can make it for ourselves in operating in the moment. The Qur'an never actually said in any definite way that the sun revolves around the earth, but even if it did say that, are you one to throw out an entire tool box set because it says "they both swim in their orbits" (which they even do, but lets say they don't even, and don't even appear to, and that same book said other things which may be used as "tools" would you reject all of it over that? That seems to be extremist and would be self-detrimental. Luckily the Qur'an doesn't say anything particularly wrong, but I am trying to make the point that even if it did say something that appeared strange or untrue, would you reject all the words because of some of the words?
Is the Qur'an any less "trash" than a tool box set, to someone who does not know how to use tools and can not find any use for them? If you can not use the currency, can you buy anything with it?
Science is a tool to help us understand what we are dealing with in the moment, and ultimately it is just information which exists and is relevant in this moment. There may be another kind of "moment" in which Science isn't the tool, but something else is the tool, and things are entirely different though they may seem to make perfect sense in that other moment.
I am not saying science is irrelevant, but I am saying the Eternal Truth is what does not fluctuate, and the sun and the moon and the orbits and the laws of science are all "information" and they don't "need" to exist, only the Eternal Truth is ever-existing, and that is where one's religious focus should be.
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I am not saying science is irrelevant, but I am saying the Eternal Truth is what does not fluctuate, and the sun and the moon and the orbits and the laws of science are all "information" and they don't "need" to exist, only the Eternal Truth is ever-existing, and that is where one's religious focus should be.
"only the Eternal Truth is ever-existing, and that is where one's religious focus should be" - How do we apply this? Not sure what you are saying that we should be doing.
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"only the Eternal Truth is ever-existing, and that is where one's religious focus should be" - How do we apply this? Not sure what you are saying that we should be doing.
I explain that here
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9607171.msg362129#msg362129
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I explain that here
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9607171.msg362129#msg362129
Sorry that still doesn't explain it. Was just an essay on your version of reality. What should we as human beings be doing on this Earth. I don't believe spending huge amounts of time constructing different versions of reality is one of them.
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Quran-2133 ?It is He who created The Night and Day, And the Sun and Moon; each of them Swim (float) along in its own course.?
Qur'an 911-2 "By the sun and his brightness, And the moon when she followeth him"Qur'an 3637-40 "A token unto them is night. We strip it of the day, and lo! they are in darkness and the sun runneth on unto a resting-place for him. That is the measuring of the Mighty, the Wise. And for the moon We have appointed mansions till she return like an old shrivelled palm-leaf. It is not for the sun to overtake the moon, nor doth the night outstrip the day. They float each in an orbit."
The verses above are pretty clear to me. For example the Sun following the moon, the Sun runneth on unto a resting-place, the Sun not able to overtake the moon. God could have just put a few words in to say the Earth rotates but you mankind see it as the Sun and stars rising and setting.
In a separate note, can someone please advise me if i can get those dam captchas removed everytime I make a post. It's real annoying having to verify each post.
2133 tells us the sun and moon each have their own orbits (the sun around the black hole in the center of the universe). Meaning they are not in the same plane of orbit.
911-2 tells us the moon, orbiting around the earth, orbits around the sun.
3637-40 again tells us the moon has a seperate orbit. things in a different orbit can not overtake each other.I find your understanding rather twisted and aimed at making it a joke.
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2133 tells us the sun and moon each have their own orbits (the sun around the black hole in the center of the universe). Meaning they are not in the same plane of orbit.
911-2 tells us the moon, orbiting around the earth, orbits around the sun.
3637-40 again tells us the moon has a seperate orbit. things in a different orbit can not overtake each other.I find your understanding rather twisted and aimed at making it a joke.
Oh really. If you had no knowledge of the current science then you'd look up at the sky and would simply accept that the sun and stars orbit the earth. This was the thinking both before the Quran was revealed and after it until up to recent history.
Sorry but it's you who is twisting your understanding to make it fit with the general consensus of the world. I suppose you also accept evolution and believe that humans evolved from monkeys or that they evolved from simple cell organisms.
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You are only confirming what I stated earlier, you have a predetermined agenda of making those verses look like they were written by a man that lived with a geocentrical concept of this world.
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Thanks. I have read that. Can you please explain why the Quran would say the moon follows the sun or that the sun cannot overtake the moon?
Re 912
I have not studied it in detail, but I can share some thoughts when I looked into it just now
the Arabic word "talaa" may not mean followed, or perhaps not in the way you take it. For example, when you look at all other occurrences of this word, it seems to suggest "recite". I'm not saying it means "recite" here but this may give us a clue.
recite
- To repeat or utter aloud (something memorized or rehearsed), often before an audience
Here are some classical arabic dictionary (CAD) meanings
= Ta-Lam-Waw = To follow, walk behind, imitate, pursue, consecutive. To read, recite, peruse, rehearse, declare, meditate.
Sought repeatedly, collect.
Bond or obligation.
One who relieves or aids another in singing.Here is what M.Asad says in his Quran translation notes regarding this usage
Muhammad Asad (The Message Of Quran)
912 and the moon as it reflects the sun!Lit., ''as it follows it (talaha)", i.e., the sun. According to the great philologist Al-Farra, who lived in the second century after the hijrah, "the meaning is that the moon derives its light from the sun" (quoted by Razi). This is also Raghib's interpretation of the above phrase.
Lane lexicon also says similar about this usage
http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume1/00000350.pdfThus, let me highlight some interesting CAD meanings imitated, rehearsed
When a person recites something, they are relaying a message from a source, e.g. text, screen, mind, often to another Similarly, if the moon were to recite/rehearse the sun, it would be relaying the light from it to another (i.e. us), which is what happens.
Thus, it could be translated as and the moon when (it) imitated/rehearsed/declared it/the sun
or even followed (as in imitated)Interestingly, these 911-etc verses and others are often mentioned as being the oath verses, e.g. by the sun and its brightness, etc and often mention things that are wondrous or powerful or important to the people etc, and a bright full moon is often considered a wondrous sight, even today.
As a side note, this may imply the word al qamar / the moon, does not inherently mean full-moon, i.e. it can be the moon at any stage. Relevant for those discussing the meaning of shahrthe sun/moon not overtaking each other seems self explanatory, i.e. their motion/path/orbit is not tied together in the sense one could overtake the other
It also says the night cannot outstrip the day, which is interesting considering we know they both exist simultaneously on earth, the word here means one cannot get in front of the other, which again, fits.By the way, i dont recommend relying on one translation only. Research the key words used, with CAD and a Quran concordance
e.g.FLK ~orbit
Fa-Lam-Kaf = become round, anything circular, persist/persevere, ship, Ark, the place of the revolving of the stars, the celestial sphere, vault of heaven, firmament, surrounding spheres, sky, revolvement, circling, circuit, going to and fro, in a state of commotion, whirl of a spindle, one who goes round.
falak n.m. 2133, 3640
fulk n.com. 2164, 764, 1022, 1073, 1137, 1138, 1432, 1614, 1766, 2265, 2322, 2327, 2328, 26119, 2965, 3046, 3131, 3512, 3641, 37140, 4080, 4312, 4512
time/place appointed/established
http//corpus.quran.com/wordmorphology.jsp?location=(36383)use
http//www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm
