Why isn't God responsible ?

Man_of_Faith

The test would be redundant if Allah knew that answer already. I find it flawed logic. It would mean that Allah just does all this for entertainment and not really have any purpose.

However, Allah knows everything that happens everywhere in the universe in any dimension simultaneously due to omnipresence and actually being existence itself. I consider it like a simulation where Allah has ultimate control. Allah tests our "hearts".

Salaam

mike789

A teacher knows full well that some of his students will fail the final exam yet he still lets them take the exam along with those who will not fail.

Lena

I agree with your analogy mike789. It is about the student going through a process for the students benefit, it's not about the teacher.

Man_of_Faith

Nice allegory.

Salaam

truthseeker11

Peace Yami,

I've been asked the following question lately, and came to do my own little research on the subject, which I will later on (hopefully) post, to get your feedback, but first, I would like to ask the same question that I was asked

"Does God know everything ? if Yes,
then does the knowledge include what we will choose in life ?
if Yes, then why did he create people whom he knew for sure that would pick the wrong way?

True he had given us freedom of choice, but if you are trying to equalize the chances of me and Hitler to choose the same right choice, I would severely disagree, God could do better right ? why didn't he ? he could have made Hitler my brother so that we would both be getting the same Islamic education and live less hazardly.

Specifically the Question is, why did create those, who he knew would definitely go to hell?
If he could see that some people would choose the wrong way, the why can't he be indirectly responsible for the people's actions ? he knew they would choose something wrong, yet he still created them, why ?

I asked the same question last year and no one here was able to answer it

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9606464.0

Your question is based on a faulty premise (that the infinite Creator will burn some humans in hellfire), which you assume to be true without any proven, objective evidence of that premise, other than just a belief that the current Arabic text of a scripture that claims to be divinely inspired is 100% truth and does not contain any tampering or falsehoods. Otherwise why would the scripture itself recommend to verify its truth based on real world evidence? (4153, 1736), if there was no possibility for its text to be tampered with.

The truth always makes sense and will resonate with conscience, reasoning, and real world evidence (3030, 611, 644, 4153, 1736).

Where does the infinite Creator end and the visible matter begin? The Creator is infinite and all matter including us is a physical manifestation or expression of a tiny part of the infinite Creator. If that is not true then the Creator has to be finite, because matter would be separate and distinct from the Creator. String theory of quantum physics and energy matter inter convertibility (E = m times c squared) supports the notion of an infinite Creator and matter being a manifestation of the infinite Intelligent Energy. Even al-quran implies an infinite Creator (2115, 4126, 4154).

Now based on this, how can the infinite Creator burn its own part in hellfire, especially when the infinite Creator has infinite capacity to heal? It doesn't make any sense. The infinite Creator can never burn its own part in hellfire and cause torture and pain, rather than healing, but that contradicts with some verses of al-quran about hellfire, so one of the two has to be a falsehood. So either 2115 is false and the Creator is sadistic and finite, or burning in hellfire verses are false.

Some people cannot reconcile this logical contradiction in al-quran so they resort to the notion that usage of hell and hellfire is allegorical in al-quran. This still does not explain some verses where hell and hellfire are clearly not allegorical (886-7, 6936, 3762-6.

A brilliant forum member here "Samira1234" noticed a contradiction even in the hell verses

By the way I noticed something. There seems to be a contradiction between the above three passages

1."Eating of the tree of Zaqqum" (3766) contradicts "eating only Dhari" (886).
2."Eating of the tree of Zaqqum" (3766) contradicts "eating only foul pus" (6936).
3."Eating only Dhari" (886) contradicts "eating only foul pus" (6936).

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9607107.msg362161#msg362161

What makes total sense is karmic implications to one's actions (2884), and that the Creator will heal the humans who failed, and give them another chance to get things right (228, 4011). Those who keep failing, their graduation into the next level of existence (heaven) and eventual return to the infinite Creator will be delayed (the delay = hell).

This is why I am patiently awaiting the archeological discovery of the first original Arabic text of al-quran to make up my mind on this issue.

If you fractured your finger, would you splint it, rest it, and take painkillers, or chop it off or burn it in fire instead?

Everyone please reflect on this.

A teacher knows full well that some of his students will fail the final exam yet he still lets them take the exam along with those who will not fail.

Wrong analogy ----> teacher never burns the failed students in hellfire.

The teacher knows full well that some of her/his students will fail but the teacher doesn't burn them in hellfire for that. The students just have to keep repeating until they pass (reincarnation 4011, 22 and their graduation is delayed (hell/jahannam). In the meantime the good teacher spends as much time and energy as possible to help educate the students so that they can pass the next time and keeps giving them a chance, no matter how long it takes.

I think that most likely there's no human on earth who can give me satisfying answer to such questions, so, for me personally, I better put my trust in Allah and think positive about Allah.

Some people might not like the answer, but I just answered that question )

May the infinite Creator guide us all to the truth.

JavaLatte

Some people might not like the answer, but I just answered that question )

Hmm... but you also wrote... "no one here was able to answer it".

I asked the same question last year and no one here was able to answer it

My answer in this issue is I don't know. And that's a honest answer, because I really don't know.

martha1031

What makes total sense is karmic implications to one's actions (2884), and that the Creator will heal the humans who failed, and give them another chance to get things right (228, 4011). Those who keep failing, their graduation into the next level of existence (heaven) and eventual return to the infinite Creator will be delayed (the delay = hell).

I agree with the above. I also believe that we are not given only 60 to 100 years to prove ourselves. God says this is a temporary life, yet one should ask relative to what. Nowhere in the Quran have I read anything which specifies how long earthly life should be. I bind myself to the truth that God is Merciful, and we are not going to hell after sabotaging one lifespan. The fact we are born into this world says we have work to do in order to balance the scales, and God is giving us all a chance. Each individual is striving at his or her own pace which explains why some people are more enlightened than others. God has a purpose to fulfill on planet Earth, and every one of us will continue on Earth until that purpose is achieved. I do not for one second believe that this life was made for suffering, and that we will finally reach happiness when we enter Paradise. Each of us is here to fulfill the potential of our highest self, and we will continue to return to Earth until we get there. This is because, again, God is Merciful. He is Beneficent and Forgiving.

Wakas

peace t11, all,

A brilliant forum member here "Samira1234" noticed a contradiction even in the hell verses

Quote from Samira1234

By the way I noticed something. There seems to be a contradiction between the above three passages

1."Eating of the tree of Zaqqum" (3766) contradicts "eating only Dhari" (886).
2."Eating of the tree of Zaqqum" (3766) contradicts "eating only foul pus" (6936).
3."Eating only Dhari" (886) contradicts "eating only foul pus" (6936).

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9607107.msg362161#msg362161

I don't see a contradiction. It seems the error in the above analysis lies in

capitalising D in "Dhari" implying it is a distinct and separate source
assuming what the "ha" refers to in the verses
not appreciating the usage of "min" is a partitive in the verses

Yamibato

I will try to make another post, sharing what I've discovering, , from the Arabic Quranic text, and my own human understanding,
I think it would be better than replying every comment here, which leads to arguments that often divert us from the main question.

But I'm busy with my hellish life as a Medical student,
My sisters wedding is tomorrow, and my course exams is on saturday
So I will post about it ASAP inshaAllah,
Peace,
Yami.

truthseeker11

Peace Wakas, all

I don't see a contradiction. It seems the error in the above analysis lies in

capitalising D in "Dhari" implying it is a distinct and separate source
assuming what the "ha" refers to in the verses
not appreciating the usage of "min" is a partitive in the verses

Do you mean to say that "daree3" and "ghisleen" and "shajarat al-zaqqoom" all refer to the same thing? If yes what is your proof?

Whether there is a contradiction or not in those 3 verses was just a side note. It doesn't take away anything from the main logical contradiction presented.

It doesn't make any sense that the infinite Creator created mankind knowing that a majority of them will go to hell for eternity due to that act of creation.
It doesn't make any sense that the infinite Creator will burn itself in hellfire. Complete nonsense.
It doesn't make any sense that the infinite Creator will burn itself in hellfire forever with no chance of forgiveness (448, 4116).
It doesn't make any sense that the infinite Creator will send a majority of mankind (12106) to hell forever and then call itself "the merciful".
It doesn't make any sense that setting up partners with the infinite Creator will cause an irreversible harm and damage to the Creator for which an equal compensation (2884, 440, 997- will be hell forever with no chance of forgiveness.

So either

A. The Creator is finite, sadistic, and jealous of other rival gods, mankind is not part of the Creator, and burning in hellfire verses are true OR
B. The Creator is infinite (2115) and most merciful, mankind is part of the Creator, and hell for eternity with no chance of forgiveness verses are false.

The alternate model of equal compensation for positive or negative actions (2884, 440) in subsequent incarnation (228, 4011), and repetition of incarnations until lessons are learned, with no hell for eternity without any chance of forgiveness, makes perfect sense and resonates with the Creator being infinite and the most merciful. In such a model, "heaven" will be graduation into the next higher state of existence, and "hell" will be repetition of incarnation causing delay in the eventual dissolution of illusion of separateness from the infinite Creator.

May the infinite Creator guide us to the truth.

amin

Theres no question of Allah knowing whats going to happen, as hes the one who makes it happen everything.
But does Allah know what we Will, that's part of the test given to us by Allah.

May Allah guide everyone to the right path.

Wakas

peace,

Do you mean to say that "daree3" and "ghisleen" and "shajarat al-zaqqoom" all refer to the same thing? If yes what is your proof?

They may be FROM the same thing, e.g.
http//www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm
daree3 = Daad-Ra-Ayn dry/bitter/thorny herbage

i.e. a category of plant, not a specific name of a plant.

It may well be a contradiction, but you nor Samira presented evidence proving it is.

.

truthseeker11

Peace Wakas,

They may be FROM the same thing, e.g.
http//www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm
daree3 = Daad-Ra-Ayn dry/bitter/thorny herbage

i.e. a category of plant, not a specific name of a plant.

It may well be a contradiction, but you nor Samira presented evidence proving it is.

You gave the meaning of "daree3" but I see how you deliberately avoided giving the meaning of "ghisleen", because that would have proven the contradiction.

May the infinite Creator guide us to the truth.

Wakas

peace t11,

You gave the meaning of "daree3" but I see how you deliberately avoided giving the meaning of "ghisleen", because that would have proven the contradiction.

I never gave the meanings of "ghisleen" as I would have been making the same point. Here are some

a species of trees, filth, pus, a certain plant growing in places that exude water and produce salt, putrid matter flowing from the damned

You, nor Samira, proved any contradiction.
What was done however, was show a translation with a capitalised word, implying it is separate source, then claiming a contradiction. I'm sure you are aware Arabic does not have capital letters. Thus to prove the contradiction, one would have to

Prove
ghisleen can only mean X
daree3 can only mean Y
FROM tree of zaqqum is mutually exclusive from the above

Let us know how you get on.

truthseeker11

Peace Wakas,

Thank you for proving there is no contradiction in those verses. The logical contradiction of an infinite Creator with a part of itself residing in hell forever still remains. hmm

May the infinite Creator guide us to the truth.

amin

For God there is no hell or heaven.

Heaven is one where things happen whatever we will, Hell the opposite where things happen the opposite of whatever we will. Fire or lack of Food are examples.
Earthly life is an mix and a practice/test to reach the state of heaven which is a reward or what we earn ourself for our good being here.

This looks to be concept of heaven and hell in QUran?

faruk

The logical contradiction of an infinite Creator with a part of itself residing in hell forever still remains. hmm

May the infinite Creator guide us to the truth.

Why do you think there is logical contradiction? In this world there is fire and people are burnt to death from time to time. (Jordanian pilot, people are being burnt now a dayes in Bangladesh) If all this (an infinite Creator with a part ) can burn in fire , then why an infinite Creator with a part of itself residing in hell forever can't happen. If fire can exist and burn now , it can exist in hell and burn too.

truthseeker11

Peace Faruk,

Why do you think there is logical contradiction? In this world there is fire and people are burnt to death from time to time. (Jordanian pilot, people are being burnt now a dayes in Bangladesh) If all this (an infinite Creator with a part ) can burn in fire , then why an infinite Creator with a part of itself residing in hell forever can't happen. If fire can exist and burn now , it can exist in hell and burn too.

I think you haven't realized the absurdity of what you said in red.

How can a part of the infinite Creator reside in hell forever? This is utter and complete nonsense.

Part of the infinite Creator sets up partners with the infinite Creator due to the illusion of separateness in the physical existence. All the infinite Creator has to do is remove this illusion of separateness and then its part will realize the reality that it is impossible for a partner to exist, and will not set up partners anymore. However, the implication of your view is that the infinite Creator is forever incapable of removing this illusion, and its part will remain in hell forever.

It is extremely easy for the infinite Creator to remove this illusion of separateness and make its part realize the reality that no partners can exist.

Burning of people in this world is temporary and not forever. As soon as they die, the burning stops. Also, they get burned by accident, or even if someone deliberately burns them, that person does not claim to be merciful.

Why would the infinite Creator call itself The Merciful and then put a majority of people in hell forever with no chance of forgiveness?

Is The Merciful one who never forgives a majority of people and puts them in hell forever?

In reality the Creator is infinite and there is no partner in existence. If majority of people set up partners with the infinite Creator thereby believing in a fantasy that doesn't exist, how can this belief in a fantasy irreversibly/permanently harm or damage the infinite Creator?

How can the infinite Creator punish this belief in a fantasy that does not irreversibly/permanently harm or damage the infinite Creator, by putting a majority of people in hell permanently/irreversibly with no chance of forgiveness and still call itself The Merciful?

Is this justice? An eternal/permanent/irreversible punishment with no chance of forgiveness, for an action that does not cause irreversible/permanent harm?

Why would the infinite Creator create a creation knowing that majority of that creation will be in hell forever with no chance of coming out of it, just due to its act of creation? Is the Creator sadistic?

Let's forget about the infinite Creator for now and take the example of a human being.

Would you call a queen/king most merciful if she/he executed 90% of people as punishment, instead of giving them temporary punishment and then forgiving them?

If you knew beforehand that if you have sex, you will have 10 children, and 9 out of 10 of them will be born disabled, and they will remain disabled forever just because of your act of sex, will you still have sex knowing all this?

If 9 out of your 10 children refuse to acknowledge you as their parent, wouldn't this be a fantasy because in reality you are their parent?

Would you burn 9 out of your 10 children in fire forever for believing in the fantasy that someone else is their parent and call yourself a merciful person?

Wouldn't you perform a DNA test and prove to them that you are their parent, instead of burning them in fire forever?

Suppose it is impossible for you to be permanently/irreversibly harmed by your children's belief of someone else being their parent, will you still burn them in fire permanently? Would that be fair/just? Especially when all you have to do is perform a DNA test proving the reality, and forgive them for any inappropriate actions resulting from their false belief after punishing them equitably.

Coming back to the infinite Creator

It doesn't make any sense that the infinite Creator created mankind knowing that a majority of them will go to hell for eternity due to that act of creation.
It doesn't make any sense that the infinite Creator will burn itself in hellfire. Complete nonsense.
It doesn't make any sense that the infinite Creator will burn itself in hellfire forever with no chance of forgiveness (448, 4116).
It doesn't make any sense that the infinite Creator will send a majority of mankind (12106) to hell forever and then call itself "The Merciful".
It doesn't make any sense that setting up partners with the infinite Creator will cause an irreversible/permanent harm/damage to the Creator for which an equal compensation (2884, 440, 997- will be permanent/irreversible hell with no chance of forgiveness.

The alternate model of equal compensation for positive or negative actions (2884, 440) in subsequent incarnation (228, 4011), and repetition of incarnations until lessons are learned, makes perfect sense and resonates with the Creator being infinite, fair/just, and the merciful. In such a model, "heaven" will be graduation/evolution/progression into the next higher state of existence, and "hell" will be repetition of incarnations causing delay in the eventual dissolution of illusion of separateness from the infinite Creator.

May the infinite Creator guide us to the truth.

faruk

I think you haven't realized the absurdity of what you said in red.

First of all I do not agree that we are part of an infinite creator , we are His creation. He creates whatever He wants and decide their fate however He wants. He is not answerable to anyone.

For the argument's sake , if we accept that we are part of an infinite creator and can be burnt temporarily , why He can't burn us forever? He can , if He wishes as long as we accept that He is capable of doing anything. There is no logical absurdity or contradiction here.

As for your other questions , you are asking the wisdom of Allah. How can you judge His wisdom with your limited knowledge , I can't understand. Take a lesson from the story of killing the boy by Musa's companion. Musa thinks it is injustice , sadistic until he was informed of the reason behind killing the boy.

drfazl

Heaven or Hell Our choice; But Allah prefers Heaven for us!

Allah knows an individual even while he was a fetus in the womb of his mother 53/32 and He brought him forth from the womb of his mother when he knows nothing about himself 16/78. Then Allah gives him the hearing, the sight and the soul; at birth his eyes are closed until third or fourth day; but his hearing is open all these four to five days; he was all the while listening to Allah and the malayika speaking to him of the secrets of all creations and the Quran, establishing its Conscience as the criterion. It is such a vision and beauty to the just born, that it smiles in calmness while still the eyes are closed; once the recitation is over, the infant is made to see the world - to see the deception all around, thus Allah making its conscience wake up. A new world order is born as an individual. The Quran now becomes its soul, the Ruh of Allah.

When he was in the first few days of life as an infant before his eyes are opened for the first time, he was taught about the heavens and the earth and everything in between; and before Allah shows him the superiority of His creation and that he is to be given the capacity to rule the Arsh, Allah asks the heavens, the earth and the mountains to take this kingdom of Arsh, and preserve His Trust. They feared Allah and backed away; but he owned it from Allah and the covenant with Allah was over 33/72; his insight and conscience are the proof of such covenant having been made 3/26; at this his external eyes are opened with his insight - the Ruh, intact.

We shall bear in mind that the external sight is a delusion whereupon the evil instincts try to over power our virtual insight. The parents shall rear their children from the time they opened up their eyes only by speaking to them the ayats of Quran; your child will gather up everything that Allah and the malayika spoke to it in the first few days of its birth; its conscience will be well awake all their lives and the criterion in their Ruh will be resounding. Only now the child's insight acquires the power to defeat the all the extraneous influences against the insight. The first few days of life as a newborn is so crucial for it; the newborn can understand, comprehend, and perceive and remember the very essence of Quran in any language, to the highest degree, and to the pristine pure level. Do not speak your earthy a-b-r-a-c-a-d-a-b-r-a human languages to the just born, but the ayats of Quran. Be silent otherwise before the just born except for the ayats you recite to it in your own mother tongue. It will dislike hell from the beginning to end and rise to catch up with the heavenly life by the help and protection of Allah, in this world too. Recite to your just born these ayats 3/8, 9, and 10.

Every individual whatever religious bigotry he might have been pushed into by his parents - he knows there is only One God, The Almighty; and there is the Last Day; and there is Heaven and Hell to which he will be destined to based on his allegiance to God or defiance against God. This is basic Godliness each shall possess in his heart for his living on this earth without suffering hell in this world itself. Every time he suffers the worst or hell in this world, he turns to God for the relief i.e., for the heavenly life. Then when God turns to Him with Forgiveness he becomes arrogant and less and less thankful; or he naturally gives thanks to and fear Allah more to His satisfaction for he does so because his criterion is alive due to his conscience, the Quran.