Why isn't God responsible ?
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Peace Faruk,
Why do you think there is logical contradiction? In this world there is fire and people are burnt to death from time to time. (Jordanian pilot, people are being burnt now a dayes in Bangladesh) If all this (an infinite Creator with a part ) can burn in fire , then why an infinite Creator with a part of itself residing in hell forever can't happen. If fire can exist and burn now , it can exist in hell and burn too.
I think you haven't realized the absurdity of what you said in red.
How can a part of the infinite Creator reside in hell forever? This is utter and complete nonsense.
Part of the infinite Creator sets up partners with the infinite Creator due to the illusion of separateness in the physical existence. All the infinite Creator has to do is remove this illusion of separateness and then its part will realize the reality that it is impossible for a partner to exist, and will not set up partners anymore. However, the implication of your view is that the infinite Creator is forever incapable of removing this illusion, and its part will remain in hell forever.
It is extremely easy for the infinite Creator to remove this illusion of separateness and make its part realize the reality that no partners can exist.
Burning of people in this world is temporary and not forever. As soon as they die, the burning stops. Also, they get burned by accident, or even if someone deliberately burns them, that person does not claim to be merciful.
Why would the infinite Creator call itself The Merciful and then put a majority of people in hell forever with no chance of forgiveness?
Is The Merciful one who never forgives a majority of people and puts them in hell forever?
In reality the Creator is infinite and there is no partner in existence. If majority of people set up partners with the infinite Creator thereby believing in a fantasy that doesn't exist, how can this belief in a fantasy irreversibly/permanently harm or damage the infinite Creator?
How can the infinite Creator punish this belief in a fantasy that does not irreversibly/permanently harm or damage the infinite Creator, by putting a majority of people in hell permanently/irreversibly with no chance of forgiveness and still call itself The Merciful?
Is this justice? An eternal/permanent/irreversible punishment with no chance of forgiveness, for an action that does not cause irreversible/permanent harm?
Why would the infinite Creator create a creation knowing that majority of that creation will be in hell forever with no chance of coming out of it, just due to its act of creation? Is the Creator sadistic?
Let's forget about the infinite Creator for now and take the example of a human being.
Would you call a queen/king most merciful if she/he executed 90% of people as punishment, instead of giving them temporary punishment and then forgiving them?
If you knew beforehand that if you have sex, you will have 10 children, and 9 out of 10 of them will be born disabled, and they will remain disabled forever just because of your act of sex, will you still have sex knowing all this?
If 9 out of your 10 children refuse to acknowledge you as their parent, wouldn't this be a fantasy because in reality you are their parent?
Would you burn 9 out of your 10 children in fire forever for believing in the fantasy that someone else is their parent and call yourself a merciful person?
Wouldn't you perform a DNA test and prove to them that you are their parent, instead of burning them in fire forever?
Suppose it is impossible for you to be permanently/irreversibly harmed by your children's belief of someone else being their parent, will you still burn them in fire permanently? Would that be fair/just? Especially when all you have to do is perform a DNA test proving the reality, and forgive them for any inappropriate actions resulting from their false belief after punishing them equitably.
Coming back to the infinite Creator
- It doesn't make any sense that the infinite Creator created mankind knowing that a majority of them will go to hell for eternity due to that act of creation.
- It doesn't make any sense that the infinite Creator will burn itself in hellfire. Complete nonsense.
- It doesn't make any sense that the infinite Creator will burn itself in hellfire forever with no chance of forgiveness (448, 4116).
- It doesn't make any sense that the infinite Creator will send a majority of mankind (12106) to hell forever and then call itself "The Merciful".
- It doesn't make any sense that setting up partners with the infinite Creator will cause an irreversible/permanent harm/damage to the Creator for which an equal compensation (2884, 440, 997- will be permanent/irreversible hell with no chance of forgiveness.
The alternate model of equal compensation for positive or negative actions (2884, 440) in subsequent incarnation (228, 4011), and repetition of incarnations until lessons are learned, makes perfect sense and resonates with the Creator being infinite, fair/just, and the merciful. In such a model, "heaven" will be graduation/evolution/progression into the next higher state of existence, and "hell" will be repetition of incarnations causing delay in the eventual dissolution of illusion of separateness from the infinite Creator.
May the infinite Creator guide us to the truth.
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I think you haven't realized the absurdity of what you said in red.
First of all I do not agree that we are part of an infinite creator , we are His creation. He creates whatever He wants and decide their fate however He wants. He is not answerable to anyone.
For the argument's sake , if we accept that we are part of an infinite creator and can be burnt temporarily , why He can't burn us forever? He can , if He wishes as long as we accept that He is capable of doing anything. There is no logical absurdity or contradiction here.
As for your other questions , you are asking the wisdom of Allah. How can you judge His wisdom with your limited knowledge , I can't understand. Take a lesson from the story of killing the boy by Musa's companion. Musa thinks it is injustice , sadistic until he was informed of the reason behind killing the boy.
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Heaven or Hell Our choice; But Allah prefers Heaven for us!
Allah knows an individual even while he was a fetus in the womb of his mother 53/32 and He brought him forth from the womb of his mother when he knows nothing about himself 16/78. Then Allah gives him the hearing, the sight and the soul; at birth his eyes are closed until third or fourth day; but his hearing is open all these four to five days; he was all the while listening to Allah and the malayika speaking to him of the secrets of all creations and the Quran, establishing its Conscience as the criterion. It is such a vision and beauty to the just born, that it smiles in calmness while still the eyes are closed; once the recitation is over, the infant is made to see the world - to see the deception all around, thus Allah making its conscience wake up. A new world order is born as an individual. The Quran now becomes its soul, the Ruh of Allah.
When he was in the first few days of life as an infant before his eyes are opened for the first time, he was taught about the heavens and the earth and everything in between; and before Allah shows him the superiority of His creation and that he is to be given the capacity to rule the Arsh, Allah asks the heavens, the earth and the mountains to take this kingdom of Arsh, and preserve His Trust. They feared Allah and backed away; but he owned it from Allah and the covenant with Allah was over 33/72; his insight and conscience are the proof of such covenant having been made 3/26; at this his external eyes are opened with his insight - the Ruh, intact.
We shall bear in mind that the external sight is a delusion whereupon the evil instincts try to over power our virtual insight. The parents shall rear their children from the time they opened up their eyes only by speaking to them the ayats of Quran; your child will gather up everything that Allah and the malayika spoke to it in the first few days of its birth; its conscience will be well awake all their lives and the criterion in their Ruh will be resounding. Only now the child's insight acquires the power to defeat the all the extraneous influences against the insight. The first few days of life as a newborn is so crucial for it; the newborn can understand, comprehend, and perceive and remember the very essence of Quran in any language, to the highest degree, and to the pristine pure level. Do not speak your earthy a-b-r-a-c-a-d-a-b-r-a human languages to the just born, but the ayats of Quran. Be silent otherwise before the just born except for the ayats you recite to it in your own mother tongue. It will dislike hell from the beginning to end and rise to catch up with the heavenly life by the help and protection of Allah, in this world too. Recite to your just born these ayats 3/8, 9, and 10.
Every individual whatever religious bigotry he might have been pushed into by his parents - he knows there is only One God, The Almighty; and there is the Last Day; and there is Heaven and Hell to which he will be destined to based on his allegiance to God or defiance against God. This is basic Godliness each shall possess in his heart for his living on this earth without suffering hell in this world itself. Every time he suffers the worst or hell in this world, he turns to God for the relief i.e., for the heavenly life. Then when God turns to Him with Forgiveness he becomes arrogant and less and less thankful; or he naturally gives thanks to and fear Allah more to His satisfaction for he does so because his criterion is alive due to his conscience, the Quran.
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Peace Faruk,
First of all I do not agree that we are part of an infinite creator , we are His creation.
Hmm ... I see that your creator is finite and limited so it's a moot point discussing any further. A finite and limited creator is not wherever you turn (2115). So where does your finite and limited creator end and the creation begin?
The boy was killed, not burnt in hell forever without chance of forgiveness.
We should also stop using our inner compass/conscience (3030), reasoning (611, 644 etc.) and real world evidence (4153, 1736) to verify the truth since your finite and limited creator likes doing irrational things which make no sense. Wonder why an irrational, sadistic, finite, and limited creator suggests that it is present wherever we turn, appeals to our inner compass/conscience, asks us to use our reasoning, and real world evidence, and calls itself THE MERCIFUL.
May the Infinite Merciful Rational Just Creator guide us to the truth.
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Salaam,
It must also be noted that the Creator is the only in existence for real. If we want to continue to exist we need to be absorbed into its realm. It is we who need to be part of it and absorbed into it and not that the Rabb becomes us but that we together become a synchronous part of it. It is still despite this the only real existing consciousness.
If you revere and treat the Creator separately this is just what you shall get, i.e. a separation because how do you show love to the Creator in case you do not want to be immersed and love the Creator closely and in symbiosis?
Instead (allegorically) hug and love the Creator who sent you forth and tread in the synchronous image.
We are not looking for a Creator who is separate like in Paganism but this Creator of ours does not have any separate image but we must get absorbed into the consciousness to persist.
Salaam
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Peace Faruk,
Hmm ... I see that your creator is finite and limited so it's a moot point discussing any further. A finite and limited creator is not wherever you turn (2115). So where does your finite and limited creator end and the creation begin?
Peace truthseeker11,
No , my creator is not finite. My creator encompasses absolutely everything but He is not a thing.
You are thinking that infinite creator is a thing , that's why you think that we as a a thing is part of Him.If you put a molecule of sugar in a glass of water , it dissolves and does not increase the total volume of water. Still molecule of sugar does not become water or part of water.
Our planet earth including all humans and everything in it in comparison to our universe is less than a molecule. Our universe in comparison to infinity is less than an atom/particle. So to encompass this universe for an infinite creator is easy.
Me and my thinking are not same or of same material.
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Faruk,
Salaam. A few month ago I likened the Creator with a singularity. A singularity has a huge mass yet it does not take any space. The existence of the Creator is true for the whole of that singularity which takes no (real) space.
Taking that into consideration, the one who wants eternal life needs to actually dissolve their mass because the mass will not always be like that but it will eventually vanish.
It is not Quran, but Jesus said thay one has to separate the spirit from the flesh. When your interim is over then you should be detached from the mass.
When Jesus 2000 years ago spoke about flesh he referred to the scientific phenomenon of mass. We have to adapt what the prophets of old said using our scientific ability to have better allegories fit for the third millennium AD and scientific advancements because it can help in science too.
It is true that you say that we are part of that singularity which is the Sustainer, but the "energy source" which projects the mass is going to force a contraction/dissolution of the mass eventually. We must do a spiritual ascension and exist in spirit form, preferably while we still have to get along with our physical bodies but it is all about an affinity and assimilation on a spiritual (abstract) level.
When then the world ceases to have any mass then those who could separate the spirit from the mass will have a better day than the worldly ones. Exactly the dynamics of the Hereafter is terribly hard to foretell with the scarce knowledge we have, but it is more that people who failed are prevented from stepping in rather than thrown in any Hell.
The key seems to simply being perfected in the Creator in the same image. So there are no separate images (Paganism) but just one single one that we all who wish to live eternally get absorbed into. When the spirit is in the Creator then you are safe from the upcoming dissolution.
Salaam
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Peace Faruk,
You are the one who is proposing that your creator is a thing, a finite thing. If the creation is not a part of your creator, then no matter how much your creator "encompasses" it is still finite because it ends somewhere and creation begins somewhere because they are not the same, and this will make your creator a thing which is finite. Infinite cannot be a thing.
If you dissolve sugar in water, the sugar molecules are separate from the water molecules therefore by definition water cannot be infinite and has to be finite. The only way water can be infinite is if sugar is just another form of water, and water is all there is. Otherwise water will be finite if that is not true, no matter how much it surrounds sugar molecules.
Actually your example is completely wrong in relation to your view. The reality is that sugar and water are the same. At the quantum level, both sugar and water molecules are fundamentally formed of strings of energy and appear different because of different vibration of those strings of energy. Energy and matter are thus interconvertible. Looking at it another way, given enough energy you can fuse enough protons into some hydrogen atoms to convert them into carbon atoms and transform water into sugar; or you can strip protons away from carbon to convert into hydrogen and transform sugar into water. They are one and the same thing at the most fundamental level, just different manifestations of the same. Creator and creation are similarly the same, creation being a temporary physical manifestation of the infinite Intelligent Energy, resulting in an illusion of separateness.
2115 talks about the Creator being wherever you turn. If creation is not a part of your creator, it cannot be wherever you turn by definition. Take your own example of sugar dissolved in water. Let's assume that sugar and water are not fundamentally one and the same and they are different. Let's assume you shrink down to atomic level. You will see a lot of water molecules surrounding a sugar molecule. Let's assume you are standing right next to the sugar molecule which is on your right. You will see water molecules to your left, up and down and other angles in between, but you won't see it to your right. So water molecules will not be wherever you turn, unless sugar is part of water.
You still haven't answered my question. Because your creator is not infinite and creation is not a part of it, no matter how much it "encompasses" it has to end somewhere and the creation has to begin somewhere. Where does your creator end and the creation begin?
May the Infinite Rational Merciful Creator guide us to the truth.
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@truthseeker11,
Salam. Read my post again and see what I said. Water and sugar was an example for human perception. Water is not Allah and I don't know Allah is made of what? creation and creator are not same as Allah and His word/kalam . Look at the universe and understand how minuscule , nearing to zero it is in term of infinity. To create this minute nearing to zero universe (in human perception it is huge , 15 light years in diameter) no need for the infinite creator to end some where.What you are saying is conjecture .
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Peace Faruk,
2115 And to God belong the east and the west, so wherever you turn, there is the face of God. God is Encompassing, Knowledgeable.
I see you keep rejecting 2115 and you are not answering my question. Nearing to zero of something does not imply infinity of the creator. For creator to be infinite, the creation has to be zero, not "near to zero". You reject a verse of al-quran and mathematical facts.
If the creation is not part of the creator then the creator cannot be wherever you turn. So by saying that the creation is not part of the creator you are rejecting 2115. There will be some place, no matter how infinitesimally small, where there will be creation but no creator and thus your creator will be finite. Hence for Creator to be wherever you turn, it has to be infinite (zero anything else) and thus the creation has to be a part of the infinite Creator for 2115 to be true.
You still haven't answered the question. If the universe is not part of the creator then there will be some place, no matter how near to zero, where the creator won't be. Now where does your finite creator end and the creation begin?
If you cannot answer my question and keep rejecting 2115 then no use discussing this further.
May the Infinite Creator (zero anything else) guide us to the truth.
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Peace truthseeker11,
We don't know the nature of Allah , still we are arguing about Allah as spaceoccupying something. Do you see our limitation? I told you before - Allah encompasses absolutely everything we know of. So I am not contradicting 2115. We including space are all illusion /virtual. As a neutrino typically passes through normal matter unimpeded , Allah also pervades everything ( I don't know how , because Allah's nature unknown).
So it's futile to argue with no knowledge of Allah about part of Allah. May Allah guide us all.
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Salam Arman,
nice analogy,
I think Him of a drawing artist who is on work, one who keeps drawing and takes ideas from our will.
Thanks Amin.
Once again.. I have to respectfully disagree with the term "... and takes ideas from our will". Per my humble understanding our will is not distinct from His will. We do not will until He wills. He is the Subject, we are dependents. He is the Master, we are slaves - always has been, ever will be - we like it or not. That is how the analogy of novel works.
But of course this realization may be difficult to digest for egocentric human mind, which LOVES so much to take a comfort in believing "I think, therefore I am". Perhaps "I think, I didn't choose to think, therefore God makes me think, so God is." is a better realization, but very few can realize.
A working bee may be in the illusion that it is collecting and storing honey out of its free will, but the fact of the matter is ? the working bee is only acting upon the genetic instruction built into it. Even the queen bee which leaves the old hive and leads a new hive of its own is not acting upon its free will. It has built-in instruction inside to act like that. We arrogant humans feel so confident we are much more ?independent? than the bees and birds and beasts. But are we?
Starting from an indefinite point in time in my early childhood (when My consciousness/ruh became operational) I have been caught into this movie ? perfectly directed with all cast and crews, seamlessly scripted, marvelously colorful in perfect 4-D format ? the movie everybody called reality. I didn?t ask to be in it nor do I know when I?ll leave it. So, I am not convinced that my ?free will? is at all free. My free will? every word that I utter in the extreme privacy of my thoughts? like everything else in this world is pre-scripted by the Almighty. I do not know if Almighty has planned me to be a troublemaker or a peacemaker in this movie. I hope I am playing the role of the peacemaker ? a role that would be in the good book of my Master once the movie is over. With that humble wish my devoted prayer to my Master is ? ?Guide us to the straight route, (please); route of those whom You approved upon - not who have anger upon them ? and nor (of) the deviating ones.? I hope my prayer and my sincerity is a sign to me that I am on the right path. Perhaps, that hope is all that am I - or perhaps even that hope is pre-scripted. I rely on my Master.
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
Arman -
Salam Arman,
Ok I am taking your point, and here i do not disagree that He is the master, since he is the one who is drawing.
But my point is our worthless will(not egocentric ) is respected by Him. that's the test for us or i will safely call that as a practice.
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Salam Arman,
Ok I am taking your point, and here i do not disagree that He is the master, since he is the one who is drawing.
But my point is our worthless will(not egocentric ) ) is respected by Him. that's the test for us or i will safely call that as a practice.
Salam Amin
Of course our worthless will is respected by Him. It is His will afterall!
It is His mercy that He chose to run this movie in the first place. We are indebted to Him like Sherlok Holmes in indebted to Sir Arthur C. Doyle. We owe everything to Him. EVERYTHING. That is His mercy.
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
Arman -
But God will not do all the work for you and you can just lay back and relax and expect everything to come to you by mere belief. You have to act upon the word. Realize it.
That is part of the passivist delusion regarding religion and a trap.Coming to a conclusion that God exist is just the start and God is not satisfied by mere belief but you need to show the works. And the condition you ought to be in is that you should realize there is a Creator and not only believe there is one and also be realized in the Creator. That other is the belief delusion.
Like me, I KNOW there is a Creator and I do not believe. That is for people with weak faith. I work on realizing myself in the Creator rather than stuck on some believing. I want to be realized in God, the angels, the prophets, the knowledge and all those other people who had a realization.
Salaam
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Salamun Alaikum.
If there is a character in the novel which does nothing but all the time waits for the novelist to do something for him ? then indeed the novelist has chosen to make it an extremely pathetic character. His "rank of worth" in the novel must be very low. May Allah save us from being such an idiot.
495 The ones sitting (inactive) among the faithful, except the disabled ones, are not level with the ones striving in Allah?s path with their wealth and their souls. Allah has graced the ones striving with their wealth and their souls above the ones sitting (inactive) - in rank. And to everyone Allah promises the nicest. And Allah has graced the ones striving (hard) with their wealth and their souls above the ones sitting (inactive) - with a great reward.
496 Rank from Him and forgiveness and mercy- and Allah happens to be Forgiving, Merciful.
497 Indeed those ? whom the angels put away (while) they (would be) doing injustice to their souls ? they (would) say, ?What had you been into?? They (would) say, ?We used to be vulnerable in the earth.? They (would) say. ?Hasn?t the earth of Allah been spacious (enough) for you to emigrate in it?? So they are the ones ? their refuge is in Hell - and an evil destination.
498 - Except the vulnerable ones among the fellows, the women and the children not able to dodge or were not guided to the path.
499 Then they are the ones, perhaps Allah will pardon them and Allah happens to be Pardoning, Forgiving.
(My personal translation, cross checking is recommended.)
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
Arman