Why are muslims backward?
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DO you mean that the whole downfall was caused by not printing? what about now when muslims use internet but still backward? explain more please.
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There are different types of knowledge and wisdom, abstract and concrete. The abstract one requires no formal education but one can work that out themselves in their mind. The knowledge bound to this illusion of solidity is worth little at the end of days.
Intelligence is thus not necessarily bound to knowledge but one can know less than another but still be more intelligent. That is true for a person who has entered into the realm of Allah. A better soul depth widens one's perception and just able to use the mind for thinking requires little knowledge. And to know good from wrong requires little knowledge.
Salaam
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moreover I think the lack of Technology or wealth do not define backwardness, Its the happiness/peace factor I will consider the most that tells if a community or individual is blessed with.
Definitely, that's why somebody came up with "Happiness Index".. to measure "well being"..
http//www.happyplanetindex.org/Although technology and wealth does have a positive contribution to happiness..
Yet overuse of technology which causes pollution (for example) shall have a negative contribution to general well being and happiness..To me "backwardness" is a mental state.. it is the opposite of "Progressive"...
Backward community is not a happy community.. they are full of hatred / resentment toward others, they're not satisfied, feeling their well being and needs are not being met. And instead of positive outlook and came out with innovative and positive idea on how to overcome their problem they resorted to how to make others feel as bad as they are... how to make others suffer as they are.. they're happy if they can put some suffering to others..To make matter worse, they're proud and will not accept any new idea or solution that is coming from outside of their circle/tradition/religion, instead they labeled those new idea as 'dangerous'...
Such social environment shall not create a peaceful environment.Basically it's the attitude of the character named "Iblees" in the Quran.. Proud, Envious, Angry, Bitter, Jealous, Full of Hate and try to make others suffer as he is..
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All religious people are backward...
Those who doesn't have critical mind, those who doesn't have creative mind.
Those who are too lazy to think for themselves and delegate the task of thinking to other people and just 'follow'...
Those who are afraid to speak out their mind when they find something wrong...
Those who are close minded and cannot accept new ideas..And it's not only applicable to Muslim (The member of a religion named Islam), it also applicable to Judaist, Christianist etc..
Look at the current "rednecks" population in US, they are very religious and they are backward..Very simple, the characteristic of the society within Abbasid Empire were
- Egalitarian
- Open Minded and Innovative (many of the so called inventions was a 'modified' / 'improved' ideas from other culture)
- Critical, debate and discussion is heavily encouraged..
"The Persians ruled for a thousand years and did not need us Arabs even for a day. We have been ruling them for one or two centuries and cannot do without them for an hour"
-- Harun Al Rashid (8th century Sultan)"If the people of this religion are asked about the proof for the soundness of their religion, they flare up, get angry and spill the blood of whoever confronts them with this question. They forbid rational speculation, and strive to kill their adversaries. This is why truth became thoroughly silenced and concealed."
"You claim that the evidentiary miracle is present and available, namely, the Koran. You say "Whoever denies it, let him produce a similar one." Indeed, we shall produce a thousand similar, from the works of rhetoricians, eloquent speakers and valiant poets, which are more appropriately phrased and state the issues more succinctly. They convey the meaning better and their rhymed prose is in better meter. ? By God what you say astonishes us! You are talking about a work which recounts ancient myths, and which at the same time is full of contradictions and does not contain any useful information or explanation. Then you say "Produce something like it""
-- Muhammad ibn Zakariya al-Razi (9th century scholar)And nobody assassinated or give a death threat to Razi..
Many mistake on your citation above..
Lao Tse wrote Tao The Ching in a 'book' format in 6th century BC, 1400 years before the Abbassid era..
Sun Tzu wrote "Art Of War" (Sunzi Bingfa) in a 'book' format in 5th century BC, 1300 years before the Abbassid era.Both book contains so many 'truth' that it still often cited and act as a reference up until today..
Without any 'religion' / 'superstition' being formed around the books, or enforcement to believe in those books and neither of the author claim that it was 'written by the God/Gods"..Again a mistake, the Indonesians and Asians (read Malaysia, Bangladesh India and today's Pakistan) during 14th century was a "Hindu/Buddhist" world.. They did made many great invention and achievement during that era.
As I mentioned above many of the so-called "Muslim" invention was a borrowed idea from other culture / civilization.. Math from India/Pakistan, Paper and Ink from China, Astronomy and Engineering from Persia/Assyria etc..
After the total obliteration of the "Caliphate" by the Turk/Mongols... and then the adoption of Islam by the Turk/Mongols, the religion of Islam was being expanded by the Turkic/Mongol Sultan towards India/Pakistan, Bangladesh and Indonesia.. mostly through conquest.. The people was forced or heavily pressured to convert from Hinduism/Buddhism to the Turkic/Mongolian conqueror's religion of Islam.
And that happened only recently... 17th century above..
I never considered India, Bangladesh and Indonesia as "Islamic country".. because they're secular.. up until today..
And by the end of this century you (or your children) will witness the rise of India and Indonesia to it's former glory..Pakistan and Iran/Persia was a secular country up until mid of 20th century..
Salam / Peace
Thank you Jafar for your great explanation. I appreciate your words.
Peace,
Samira
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To make matter worse, they're proud and will not accept any new idea or solution that is coming from outside of their circle/tradition/religion, instead they labeled those new idea as 'dangerous'...
Such social environment shall not create a peaceful environment.Thank you Jafar. This is what I personally face from several of the Muslims in my community. Basically many of them are ruled through fear. And they think by being innovative and taking matters in their own hands to cure their troubles and oppression, they may actually end up invoking the curse of Allah and hence potentially lose their Akhirah.
As for the usual parroted sayings of Muslims that following the Quran would make them enlightened, um, if it is the currently accepted translation of the Quran, it definitely isn't so. Unless we cherry-pick some of the good verses of the Quran, which I agree by themselves they are very enlightening to a number of us.
In the Quran among the negative things there are things like misogyny (such as half inheritance, half testimony for financial cases, polygamy, men being one degree above women, etc), racism (997), calling a set of people impure for their beliefs (92, unscientific statements (e.g 2133, 1679), violent punishments (e.g 533, 242), excess emphasis on punishment of Hell-fire and excess emphasis on "believing". I don't see how reading such verses should propel Muslims to advance their country and actually be just instead of trying to scurry and believe and follow religious rules and rituals in order to please such a God just to avoid the horrendous description of the Hell, and think the negative results due to following some of the Qurans ruling are due to test from their God and hence they have to bear the oppression in order to get to Jannah. This mindset is all too common one among the Muslims I am with at least. The combination with Hadith makes it worse.
The fact is I have seen the people who are the most beneficial and progressive in a community are the ones who are less fear-based and less superstitious in general. I find it sort of impossible that the one who literally takes in all of the Quran as we know of today would not live in fear and hence be less productive as a person due to such an influence. Such people also end up having an effect on other people based on their own fears and superstitions.
The equality talked between men and women in the Quran is mainly in terms of how they are to God. That's hardly beneficial for people in the world who would want to know how men and women are equal on this planet.
Several of the most progressive, peaceful and less corrupted countries in the world are non-Muslim ones. They know nothing about the Quran in general nor care to find out. Maybe that should tell us that it could be due to following MORE of Islam as we know of today, the Muslim mindsets are the way they are today.
Peace,
Samira
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Peace Samira.
Sometimes we need to think before we make a general comment like yours here
I find it sort of impossible that the one who literally takes in all of the Qoran as we know of today would not live in fear and hence be less productive as a person due to such an influence. Such people also end up having an effect on other people based on their own fears and superstitions.
What have you based this on? People you know?
Are you sure all of them are the way you described?
I can only speak for myself, I have not influenced my wife who is still a Unitarian Christian and strong at that. Nor have I influenced my son who after qualifying as a Doctor last year, decided to keep searching and pondering ,then make up his own mind. Nor have I influenced my elder daughter who is running a big company and has no time ( as she puts it) for study /religion... Nor have I influenced my youngest daughter who, by herself decided to study with me once a week...But retains her freedom and confidence , she has the freedom to choose like everyone else. Everybody has the freedom to choose.
I hope to converse with you ,sometimes in the future , if you ever realise what a treasure Qoran is. What wisdom, what message.
But never mind for now. You are entitled to your views and opinion.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Amen, you would have made Jesus pleased with you, Samira.
Salaam
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I love the Qurn, and can't do without its instructions and lessons.
This text has literally guided me out of the depths of darkness (4 years ago) and has continued to blow my mind ever since. To me, denying it is out of the question. Thus, no can't do @Samira! Your position may not be synonymous with that of the (deluded) right-brained (such as Sunnis and Shiites), but appealing to the other extremity wont yield the Truth either i'm afraid. Extremism is a vice.~ I vote for mildness.
SLM
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Peace Samira.
Sometimes we need to think before we make a general comment like yours here
I find it sort of impossible that the one who literally takes in all of the Qoran as we know of today would not live in fear and hence be less productive as a person due to such an influence. Such people also end up having an effect on other people based on their own fears and superstitions.
What have you based this on? People you know?
Are you sure all of them are the way you described?
I can only speak for myself, I have not influenced my wife who is still a Unitarian Christian and strong at that. Nor have I influenced my son who after qualifying as a Doctor last year, decided to keep searching and pondering ,then make up his own mind. Nor have I influenced my elder daughter who is running a big company and has no time ( as she puts it) for study /religion... Nor have I influenced my youngest daughter who, by herself decided to study with me once a week...But retains her freedom and confidence , she has the freedom to choose like everyone else. Everybody has the freedom to choose.
I hope to converse with you ,sometimes in the future , if you ever realise what a treasure Qoran is. What wisdom, what message.
But never mind for now. You are entitled to your views and opinion.
GOD bless you.
Peace.peace good logic
i agree that quran is really a treasure ,wisdom , a message that can satisfy hearts
but at the same time i can say that samira is right.....
samira is asking ,inovking person ......and her taught s are acceptable
but i think she is taking quran and judging the whole country or community .....
but , i can say that if anyone follows god truly , sincerly ,and when he does not understand anything being patient 10109...until god judges him/her
such can live person can have a life more than better than richest man on earth ......and those are few in number
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Peace Samira.
Sometimes we need to think before we make a general comment like yours here
I find it sort of impossible that the one who literally takes in all of the Qoran as we know of today would not live in fear and hence be less productive as a person due to such an influence. Such people also end up having an effect on other people based on their own fears and superstitions.
What have you based this on? People you know?
Are you sure all of them are the way you described?
I can only speak for myself, I have not influenced my wife who is still a Unitarian Christian and strong at that. Nor have I influenced my son who after qualifying as a Doctor last year, decided to keep searching and pondering ,then make up his own mind. Nor have I influenced my elder daughter who is running a big company and has no time ( as she puts it) for study /religion... Nor have I influenced my youngest daughter who, by herself decided to study with me once a week...But retains her freedom and confidence , she has the freedom to choose like everyone else. Everybody has the freedom to choose.
I hope to converse with you ,sometimes in the future , if you ever realise what a treasure Qoran is. What wisdom, what message.
But never mind for now. You are entitled to your views and opinion.
GOD bless you.
Peace.Hello good logic,
Yeah I have been mainly speaking from my own lifestyle and how I have been from my own self, as well as seeing the people around me during my upbringing and now when studying in university. Religion happens to be one of the core ways of impacting people, either in a positive or negative way, mainly since we take the teachings in the scripture as coming from a God who is Just, Compassionate and Wise.
I am happy that you have family members to whom you appreciate giving freedom of choice. God bless you for it.
Perhaps if you have problems with my words you could start by providing counter-arguments for the interpretations I have for the verses that I posted in my previous reply? Thank you.
Amen, you would have made Jesus pleased with you, Samira.
Salaam
Thank you MoF. I am still learning though.
I love the Qurn, and can't do without its instructions and lessons.
This text has literally guided me out of the depths of darkness (4 years ago) and has continued to blow my mind ever since. To me, denying it is out of the question. Thus, no can't do @Samira! Your position may not be synonymous with that of the (deluded) right-brained (such as Sunnis and Shiites), but appealing to the other extremity wont yield the Truth either i'm afraid. Extremism is a vice.~ I vote for mildness.
SLM
Hello hicham9,
I have posted the required verses to support my statements. I usually try to do so, so that people may cross-check themselves to see what the verses say and mean. The issues that I pointed out within the Quran, can you please prove me wrong regarding my viewpoints on them using the verses I had posted at least? Otherwise it is just empty words of people being given to me by people who prefer to draw the cloth over their eyes from reality.
peace good logic
i agree that quran is really a treasure ,wisdom , a message that can satisfy hearts
but at the same time i can say that samira is right.....
samira is asking ,inovking person ......and her taught s are acceptable
but i think she is taking quran and judging the whole country or community .....
but , i can say that if anyone follows god truly , sincerly ,and when he does not understand anything being patient 10109...until god judges him/her
such can live person can have a life more than better than richest man on earth ......and those are few in number
Thank you Wasi for the appreciation. Regarding black-brushing an entire community or country due to Islam that is being followed, well, that is due to the nature of what we may be following. We follow the Quran since we take it as the Word of God. The Quran as we know of today, besides some of the enlightening words which I like and appreciate, also does contain statements and verses which are the opposite of enlightenment, such as the verses that I had posted in my previous comment. A person reading such verses and being told they are the words from a Just, Compassionate, and Wise God would have them layered in their mind and heart, and their everyday actions and behaviour would show that too. I have had such layering myself, and after talking to numerous Muslims from different countries on Islam and some philosophical topics, realized they were all carrying similar layering too. Hence here it is apparent religion does have a big role in impacting people's minds, hearts and actions.
At least it is one of the major factors in influencing a person's mindset, if not the combined factors.
Peace.
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Peace Samira.
Thank you for the clarification.Of course I am willing to give you my view on those "negative verses" that you mentioned.
I
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Sorry continued..
If you wish to discuss them I will be happy to do so.
GOD bless you .
Peace. -
In the Quran among the negative things there are things like misogyny (such as half inheritance, half testimony for financial cases, polygamy, men being one degree above women, etc),
I agree that I still have doubt about how inheritance law is interpreted. I believe that its probably our human mind that has its limit in understanding verses that have come all the way from the creator. So have patience dear. Nothing is impossible when Allah guides us.
Verse 2282 is not about giving testimony, but witnessing. Some scholars have been saying that one of the words in it is falsely interpreted. Second thing I noticed about it is that the entire rule given in it is for uneducated men and women. Here is the hint
From 2282 But if the one who has the obligation is of limited understanding or weak or unable to dictate himself, then let his guardian dictate in justice.
I believe the verse mainly emphasizes the importance of having someone as witness than who can be witness.
From 2282 And take witnesses when you conclude a contract. Let no scribe be harmed or any witness. For if you do so, indeed, it is disobedience in you. And fear Allah . And Allah teaches you. And Allah is Knowing of all things.;D ;D Do you see something amazing about this verse? Its the answer to those Muslims who have been saying loans are forbidden in Islam.
Back to topic, according to Allah, men don't have easy escape with a testimony just because they are men! Have a look
244 And those who accuse chaste women and then do not produce four witnesses - lash them with eighty lashes and do not accept from them testimony ever after. And those are the defiantly disobedient,
As for polygamy verse, one forum member discussed how it is falsely interpreted. I will send you the thread if I find it. The Muslim scholars who force people to believe that Allah allows polygamy probably even played with this verse
4129 And you will never be able to be equal between wives, even if you should strive . So do not incline completely and leave another hanging. And if you amend and fear Allah - then indeed, Allah is ever Forgiving and Merciful.
Notice how the the first line doesn't logically flow with rest of the lines. Love is all about discrimination. We can't help favoring one person over the other. Allah is so clear about it in the first line. Then why on earth will he say don't leave one hanging? I still haven't researched on it to find its the accurate interpretation.racism (997),
ITaken out of context I see! If you go back to verses that come before 997 you will see Allah gives features of the
hypocrite Arabs. Not all Arabs are exactly this. In that same Surah he says this
999 But among the Arabs are some who believe in Allah and the Last Day and consider what they spend as means of nearness to Allah and of invocations of the Messenger. Unquestionably, it is a means of nearness for them. Allah will admit them to His mercy. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.calling a set of people impure for their beliefs (92,
It was about polytheists. Now I am not aware of what exactly was the reason behind calling them impure in this verse. But I do know that Arabs did worship weird Gods and Goddess that now can be found in India. I also know that pagan rituals can include blood, feces, urine, orgy, human sacrifice, human's flesh eating and much more. Research on kala chakhra and tantric rituals.
unscientific statements (e.g 2133, 1679),
2133 correct translation God is the one who created the night, the day, the sun, and the moon. Each one is traveling in an orbit with its own motion
1679 has nothing to do with science. Its about the power of Allah.
There is still another verse where he gives the details in brief.67 19 Do they not observe The birds above them, Spreading their wings And folding them in? None can uphold them Except (Allah) Most Gracious Truly it is He That watches over all things
violent punishments (e.g 533, 242),
Violent punishment is given to a specific type of criminals
The details
532-34 ...If any one slew a person - unless it be as punishment for murder or for spreading corruption in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. Then although there came to them Our apostles with clear signs, yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in the land. The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter; Except for those who repent before they fall into your power in that case, know that Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.I previously talked about 242 as being a case of public sex/orgy. Hint is verse 244. It says 4 witnesses are needed. In other places of Quran, Allah on and on tells us that what matters most is hearing and seeing to verify facts. It is not possible if the people involved in the bed are doing it all behind closed door. That said, Allah does tell us to stay away from illegitimate sexual intercourse.
excess emphasis on punishment of Hell-fire and excess emphasis on "believing". I don't see how reading such verses should propel Muslims to advance their country and actually be just instead of trying to scurry and believe and follow religious rules and rituals in order to please such a God just to avoid the horrendous description of the Hell, and think the negative results due to following some of the Qurans ruling are due to test from their God and hence they have to bear the oppression in order to get to Jannah. This mindset is all too common one among the Muslims I am with at least. The combination with Hadith makes it worse.
Are we humans being good even after all the threats of hellfire given in Quran? The idea of believer has been badly twisted by scholars. This one has an excellent explanation on its true meaning. http//www.free-minds.org/mumins
If we become true believers we will actually progress. Its not at all about robotic rules and regulations set by traditionalists.The fact is I have seen the people who are the most beneficial and progressive in a community are the ones who are less fear-based and less superstitious in general.
Very much agree.
I find it sort of impossible that the one who literally takes in all of the Quran as we know of today would not live in fear and hence be less productive as a person due to such an influence. Such people also end up having an effect on other people based on their own fears and superstitions.
Nay, Quran is abandoned. Not many reads it. And even when they do they read it in Arabic and that is also with the manuals called tafseer and hadith books.
Several of the most progressive, peaceful and less corrupted countries in the world are non-Muslim ones. They know nothing about the Quran in general nor care to find out. Maybe that should tell us that it could be due to following MORE of Islam as we know of today, the Muslim mindsets are the way they are today.
Peace,
Samira
Though they know not much about Quran they do follow it better than Muslims.
peace
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Salam,
This community is more concerned with the afterlife rather than the present world (thanks to our mullahs). Unless they start channeling their positive energy into this world they will never change. Muslims don't follow the quran...that's a typical response I get which I believe is utter balderdash.
Someone said that the community is not united hence the downfall...I think disintegration should be the second name of this community...right after the demise of the Prophet, the companions were fighting amongst themselves for caliphate and then continued to kill each other in the battles of Siffin, Camel and Nahranwan. To top it all, these were fought among people who had seen and lived with the Prophet - Up, close and personal...
Changing needs with changing times - that's the adage the muslims have to adapt otherwise this situation of worse will further go to the worst of situations.
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They forget that even being angry and unfriendly is negative towards the end. And being worldly is also the wrong track.
Salaam
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moreover I think the lack of Technology or wealth do not define backwardness, Its the happiness/peace factor I will consider the most that tells if a community or individual is blessed with.
ok but the quran clearly states to maintain a strong military
so technology definitely plays a part in it, no arab muslim nation today can take on a single western nation
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my idea is strong military/technology doesnt only mean a country is developed.
Ive already posted my idea why muslims are generally going backward. simply its because of idol worship, the same thing which Prophet and Quran rejected. their idols are the sticking only to hadeeths of Mohammed, rejecting many others, converted the meaning of Salat to something as a plain ritual instead of taking it as a procedure for asking his guidance, Some of them even took their imams/religious authority's words as final (partners) to God without any questions or scope for improvement.
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I have been denying the fact that Muslims are behind other nations by trying to justify their condition using colonization as an excuse. Lately, I have come to think that something is wrong with muslim mind. I need a better understanding on the reasons of muslim backwardness.
Backward to what?
And what is forward?
And what/who is a reference point?
And, are you here just to post provocative and provoking questions, like many others, and then not participate or contribute to discussions and increasing knowledge, OR, are you trying to learn something in humility and modesty?