Does Islam allow homosexuality?
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Of course that practice is immoral to anybody's standards. But we aren't discussing our understanding of immorality. We should be looking at how God defines immorality in Quran. All other understandings of what is immoral outside Gods definition of it, is subjective and irrelevant.
Salam runninglikezebras.
Unfortunately I do not agree with your above statement. Qur'an does not give any "absolute truth" outside human intellect and conscience. Human sense and understanding of morality, goodness, fairness - are "senses" that Allah built into or programmed into human beings. The Qur'an contains signs from Allah against which we are supposed to benchmark, evaluate, fine-tune our God gifted senses of right and wrong, good and bad. Getting right guidance from Qur'an is always subjective upon the reader's sincere application of his God-gifted intellect and conscience.
Forget your intelligence and morality and follow what the Qur'an (or any book for that matter) says - is a call towards blind faith and ignorance. I seek refuge to my Master from being among the ignorants.
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
Arman -
follow what the Qur'an (or any book for that matter) says - is a call towards blind faith and ignorance.
I cant believe you said that. I follow Quran. It does not lead me to ignorance. Quran requires intellect to understand. Human moral values change with culture, time and are subjective often wrong. Gods moral standards are the only ones that are just. But yeah, one needs to understand them first.
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I cant believe you said that. I follow Quran. It does not lead me to ignorance. Quran requires intellect to understand. Human moral values change with culture, time and are subjective often wrong. Gods moral standards are the only ones that are just. But yeah, one needs to understand them first.
Salam runninglikezebras.
Now you are quoting half of my sentence to make me sound like saying statements that I never made! brickwall
This is exactly the approach religion-sellers use to misguide people with verses from Qur'an. I will have to remember to be extra cautious before I accept any of your statement in good faith in future.This is exactly the reason why getting right guidance from Qur'an is always subjective upon the reader's sincere application of his God-gifted intellect and conscience.
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
Arman -
You also said this
Qur'an does not give any "absolute truth"
What an ignorant thing to say. Did God forget something in it? Did God make it too difficult to understand? Does God tell you you should trust your own devices over the guidance God is offering you with Quran?
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The people in IS are using their own truths to throw homosexuals of rooftops. The absolute truth in Quran is there is no mentioning about homosexuality at all. I guess you support those practices. I can see where this using your own intellect over Quranic absolute truth is working out. It's not even a matter of interpretation. Any reference to homosexuality is entirely absent in Quran.
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Sigh again a partial quotation.
nope
What I said was Qur'an does not give any "absolute truth" outside human intellect and conscience.
Quran requires intellect to understand.
If Qur'an requires intellect to understand, how can Qur'an contain absolute truth independent of human intellect?
Qur'an contains absolute truth which can only be unlocked / understood by sincere application of both human intellect and human conscience.Qur'an + sincere application of intellect + sincere application of conscience = right guidance (absolute truth).
226 Indeed Allah is not embarrassed to set forth an example of even a mosquito or something above it ? then as for those who have put faith, so they know that is the truth from their Master, and as for those who repress (faith) so they say ?What does Allah intend by this example?? He deviates many with it and guides many with it, but He does not deviate with it anyone except the willfully disobedient .
(My personal translation, emphasis added, cross checking recommended.)
The people of IS are seeking absolute truth in Qur'an while repressing their God gifted intellect and conscience. You my dear friend, knowingly or unknowingly, are advocating the same misguided path.
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
Arman -
Sigh again a partial quotation.
nope
What I said was Qur'an does not give any "absolute truth" outside human intellect and conscience.
If Qur'an requires intellect to understand, how can Qur'an contain absolute truth independent of human intellect?
Qur'an contains absolute truth which can only be unlocked / understood by sincere application of both human intellect and human conscience.Absolute truth can entirely exist independent of human intellect. Even if everyone in the world misunderstood Quran, Quran itself still contains absolute truth. It's just misunderstood. Qurans absolute truth is not unlocked by mere intellect and conscience, they have their flaws. Without guidance from God it wont help one bit understanding it.
Qur'an + sincere application of intellect + sincere application of conscience = right guidance (absolute truth).
You are so wrong about this. IS uses Quran, applies it's format of sincere intellect to it and their version of conscience resulting in wrong guidance. Because they aren't guided by God. IQ is irrelevant in understanding an absolute truth. If your reasoning would be correct everyone with high intellect would accept Quran. We know this isn't the reality.
The people of IS are seeking absolute truth in Qur'an while repressing their God gifted intellect and conscience. You my dear friend, knowingly or unknowingly, advocating the same path.
IS is not seeking absolute truth. Just like the homophobes in this thread they are letting their own opinions overrule the absolute lack of support in Quran for it. It's ignorance and not being guided by God. I'm not advocating the same path. You are, you are encouraging to freely instill any of your own opinions and attribute those to God. Next step throw a homosexual towards his death or shoot someone who draws pictures of muhammed.
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Those people in IS consider their intellect and conscience to be sincere. This is the whole problem with your view on it, the "sincerity" is not measurable. Everyone thinks their own standards and morality is the correct one. This is typical of humans. The only system of morality and standards that's absolute sincere, just and complete is in Quran my friend. Not in people's hearts or minds. Only in an ideal scenario those are the same. But usually our hearts and minds aren't always just. No one is sincere all of the time. IS is an extreme example of that. They are deluded by their own superior sincerity and are fully convinced they are doing what God demands them to do.
Who will be the judge of sincerity?
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Absolute truth can entirely exist independent of human intellect. Even if everyone in the world misunderstood Quran, Quran itself still contains absolute truth. It's just misunderstood. Qurans absolute truth is not unlocked by mere intellect and conscience, they have their flaws. Without guidance from God it wont help one bit understanding it.
You are so wrong about this. IS uses Quran, applies it's format of sincere intellect to it and their version of conscience resulting in wrong guidance. Because they aren't guided by God. IQ is irrelevant in understanding an absolute truth. If your reasoning would be correct everyone with high intellect would accept Quran. We know this isn't the reality.
IS is not seeking absolute truth. Just like the homophobes in this thread they are letting their own opinions overrule the absolute lack of support in Quran for it. It's ignorance and not being guided by God. I'm not advocating the same path. You are, you are encouraging to freely instill any of your own opinions and attribute those to God. Next step throw a homosexual towards his death or shoot someone who draws pictures of muhammed.
Salam runninglikezebras.
I do not know what you understand by "Guidance of God". For me the guidance from my Master comes through the sense of right and wrong, good and bad that Allah built into me. That is how I obey Allah - My Master and your Master; that is the straight route.
The people of IS are not sincerely excercising their intellect and conscience. They are not excercising their intellect and conscience at all! Rather, JUST LIKE YOU thay claim that excercise of intelligence/free thinking is dangerous - it may deviate you - don't be fooled by your "morality" when you kill a human being - your morality is an illusion - we should BLINDLY follow what Qur'an says as read and understood by our scholars.
This is becoming a circular exchange of arguments. I will take a pause here. Feel free to have your "last say" if that gives you the pleasure of victory. But after that let's prey to Allah that He guide us both to the straight route.
Regards,
Arman -
Salam runninglikezebras.
I do not know what you understand by "Guidance of God". For me the guidance from my Master comes through the sense of right and wrong, good and bad that Allah built into me. That is how I obey Allah - My Master and your Master; that is the straight route.
This is not how I see guidance. Compare it to a father helping his kid take his first steps when learning to walk, thats how I see guidance. It's an active process. Not something that is injected into your dna or whatever. It's not always through the sense of right and wrong. Shaytan can easily distort that sense if he wants to. To me guidance is God showing you the door that leads to the straight path, but you still need to walk through it yourself. People can never be as righteous as God in judging what's right and what's wrong. Moreover it's entirely not our task to do so. Only God can judge. Your interpretation has produced among others the "Gott mit uns" slogan of the nazis, thinking their sense of right and wrong was God given. Resulting in the holocaust. We see this repeated with IS.
The people of IS are not sincerely excercising their intellect and conscience. They are not excercising their intellect and conscience at all! Rather, JUST LIKE YOU thay claim that excercise of intelligence/free thinking is dangerous - it may deviate you - don't be fooled by your "morality" when you kill a human being - your morality is an illusion - we should BLINDLY follow what Qur'an says as read and understood by our scholars.
That's your opinion about them not being sincere. In their own minds they feel they are sincere. Your whole concept fails because like I said, sincerity as you define it is subjective. Furthermore not everyone has this feeling of morality by nature (eg psychopaths, ppl in shock, etc). You are also ignoring this morality in people's hearts is mostly constructed of what they are thaught during their youth and experiences in life. It's for a large part tradition and culture. Both which can be proven to be wrong and being totally opposite of Gods moral code. A kid raised with a kalashnikov that's constantly indoctrinated to kill infidels will feel only joy when he kills what he considers to be an infidel.
About your analogy with IS and me. They aren't following Quran, and you know this. Most of what they are following is hadith (books written by people who claimed their idea of right and wrong was absolute and sincere) while ignoring the contradiction with the absolute truth in Quran.
Ask yourself, what does Quran say about when Moses met Gods worst enemy and sinner (pharao)? God told him not to judge him and to be respectful towards him. Moses wasn't judging or applying his idea of right or wrong. Moses let the judging be done by God and followed Gods instructions. So should we all treat those we think are wrong or sinners against God.
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4.15 and 4.16 is addressed to the believers community at large, women and men. and in them there is not punishment foreseen for anybody. It is a question od social engagements to keep society in good conditions and take care that women are not exploited in prostitution. Those who are already caught in it must be taken off the street and given proper homes and means to keep themselves there till God finds for them another means of subsistence.
As to 4.16 it may well be speaking about the prostitute and the client and how believers should speak out to them to refrain from that kind of behaviour.
Your wishful thinking is highly amusing!
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This is becoming a circular exchange of arguments. I will take a pause here.
I think that's a good choice, brother Arman.
Allah knows the people who are obedient to Him and who are not.
Same-sex sexual activity (with or without marriage) is immorality. I am not ashamed to say it.
And if because I say that, people want to mock me as homophobe then?
Well, I don't care, because they are not my lord.
If they say "Only God can judge us".
Then my answer is "Yes, of course. God will judge us, indeed."
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Well you are a homophobe JavaLatte. That's not meant as an insult or a judgment. It's just how you profile yourself. I have no issue with you having issues with homosexuality and finding it immoral. I will have issues with you once you attribute such narrow mindedness to God.
Homophobia encompasses a range of negative attitudes and feelings toward homosexuality or people who are identified or perceived as being lesbian, gay, bisexual or transgender (LGBT).
There is no judgment whatsoever in that definition. It just expresses your negative attitude towards specific sexual orientations. God is most merciful.
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You will have to clarify that question, I'm not even sure it's addressed towards me...
Evidence for what?
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Well you are a homophobe JavaLatte.
If you want to say that to me even a thousands times, then you should know that it is not something that can discourage me, God willing.
And yes, God is the Most Merciful, but do not hide behind God's attribute to defend something which is not blessed by Him. That is unrighteous.
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I'm not even defending anything. I'm saying there is no reference to homosexuality being condemned in Quran whatsoever. If you think there is the task to prove there is, is up to you. Provide your sources.
Or do you condemn anything that's not mentioned in Quran at all?
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Some of you might be unaware this homophobia within Islam is something that is pretty modern and was totally absent in history
http//i.imgur.com/TgHlWNZ.jpg
Persian manuscript from the Qajar dynasty. Showing Mahmud of Ghazni with Ayaz and poets Ferdowsi, Unsuri and Asjadi (Walters Arts Museum, Baltimore)
Sultan Mahmud was ruler of the Ghaznavid Empire, which he ruled from 997 til his death. The first to use the title of sultan in Islamic history. Mahmud fell in love with Malik Ayaz, a Turkish slave. He promoted Ayaz to general in his army and later gave him the throne to Lahore where he became the first islamic ruler. The relationship between Mahmud and Ayaz in islamic culture is legendary. Especially among sufi poets it is praised for its qualities.
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I'm saying there is no reference to homosexuality being condemned in Quran whatsoever.
Then I ask you
If someday, there are people who ask you to be a witness in a gay wedding.
Will you accept it? Will you be their witness, to approve their marriage when they're making solemn oath before Allah?
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I dont like to go to weddings and certainly not as a witness. But I have no moral objections to doing such a thing outside that. The wedding ritual as performed today is not one of Gods instructions.