What is the origin of gender segregation

Zulf

There could be various factors like climate, population etc..

The more densely populated, the more safe is for the women and there is less gender segregation in those societies.

Deserts do belong to sparsely populated areas, so the practice of gender segregation in order to protect the women folk from evil eyes of men or the opposite in some cases

I don't think there is much segregation in places like canada, scandinavia, siberia etc which are rather sparsely populated. I don't think this theory holds.

Peace

roshan_m

Salaam MAn of Faith,

I agree with you praising chastity and moderation. But to me, it's more than that and it's more embedded in the male attitudes as such. I used to live in Scotland and, although that many women dress more scantily there, I wouldn't notice many men harassing verbally or disturbing women on the streets. Men over there are actually quite shy. But when I travelled to so called muslim countries, I could notice that men are more ready to indiscriminately pick up on women on the streets that were seen as not wearing halal enough. You also mention that in Iran men are judgemental towards what they see as 'bad hijab' which is really bad, because it goes again Quran telling men to FIRST guard their look.

And what I mean by saying that gender separation is the indicator of lack of social and cultural development means just that men not being able to control their own urges and desires and trying to push the whole burden of restraining it on women - by locking them down and judging their dress before judging man's own desires.

As for the chaste clothing - I think it is largely cultural thing again and I exercise flexibility in this regards depending on the country where I live/travel. But in general, I think that it is quite sad that women are often subjected to the male perception of what is desirable and 'right', be it by wearing hijabs, niqabs or whatever to prove how 'chaste' they are just as much as women in other countries showing too much flesh to prove how attractive they are. They are both just the two sides of the same coin.

Zulf

Salaam MAn of Faith,

I agree with you praising chastity and moderation. But to me, it's more than that and it's more embedded in the male attitudes as such. I used to live in Scotland and, although that many women dress more scantily there, I wouldn't notice many men harassing verbally or disturbing women on the streets. Men over there are actually quite shy. But when I travelled to so called muslim countries, I could notice that men are more ready to indiscriminately pick up on women on the streets that were seen as not wearing halal enough. You also mention that in Iran men are judgemental towards what they see as 'bad hijab' which is really bad, because it goes again Quran telling men to FIRST guard their look.

And what I mean by saying that gender separation is the indicator of lack of social and cultural development means just that men not being able to control their own urges and desires and trying to push the whole burden of restraining it on women - by locking them down and judging their dress before judging man's own desires.

As for the chaste clothing - I think it is largely cultural thing again and I exercise flexibility in this regards depending on the country where I live/travel. But in general, I think that it is quite sad that women are often subjected to the male perception of what is desirable and 'right', be it by wearing hijabs, niqabs or whatever to prove how 'chaste' they are just as much as women in other countries showing too much flesh to prove how attractive they are. They are both just the two sides of the same coin.

I agree completely.

Man_of_Faith

The divorces occur because people are more concerned about their worldly lives and nowadays it is not considered a sin to divorce. But what God has joined together no one should separate.

But divorces were allowed and occured in ancient societies were the prophets came around although it was only men who were allowed to make the decision to divorce. The contemporaries of Jesus thought it was their privilege through Moses to divorce. But the original spiritual benefactor was to remain married after the wedding.

We take ourselves too much liberty and we just want to run away from everything. This is why we divorce. People do not even take marriages seriously but it is just a gesture and then they just divorce after a few years.

The root of the problem is the egos and neither man nor woman is innocent. We do not consider the marriage as something sanctified and to honor it.

But if we do not aim at living together in marriage until death make us part it is better to remain unmarried, a virgin, for our soul's sake. It is more pious spiritually.

That does not say it is wrong to divorce if the spouse is acting in evilness and immoral ways and does not seem willing to change. But it is not the first thing to consider.

It is not okay to divorce because that love is fading or something for love is conditional and a chemical reaction which can also reignited. If you divorce because of fleshly instincts then you have no clue about the real existence.

We must stick together in hardship and not only when life seems like a bed of roses. This is also the traditional oath one makes in a Christian church during wedding ceremony.

Salaam

Man_of_Faith

Salaam roshan,

One reason why the Nothern countries such as UK and Scandinavia managed so well was because they adopted the Messianic teachings very well rather than the location whereas in the hotter regions are usually the ones which are very Pagan religious and treat God as a distinct object and are very superstitious. It has little to do with the location per se.

And if you took Sweden 100 years ago or so then people would have said "bad hijab" about a woman (in Swedish of course) too. It is more about cultural development.

The Middle-Eastern nations are very backwards on religious matters and that is more the reason for the mistreatment than anything.

Salaam

Man_of_Faith

If someone works hard to dress up as much as possible to appear chaste then amen I tell you they have failed to recognize the reason behind it. If you brag through your looks including clothing then this is very immodest, even if it is to hypocritically appear pious.

Salaam

Sonny

In US workplaces, the sexual harassment case is so strict....

Oh please, US is the most degenerate nation on the entire planet. Stop giving me them as an example.

From my own experience, I agree that there is not much gender segregation in Slavic cultures. But there is quite alot of sexism and "machoism".

I'm slavic and I agree.

I think the arousal is more an effect of that the men see women in minimalistic clothing than the climate. Moderate amounts of sunlight makes humans happier and it is likely to affect both genders equally. Sun tan may make a female look healthier and thus more attractive if she reveals her skin.

I live in Iran and we do not really have any difference depending on the weather.

This is not just about dress code, what I wanna say is that men and women can't be equal and they were made different with reason. Creator did not created women to copy men and have "equal payment", this is new thing introduced to our cultures just decades ago. By these people https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=lhJCTFZf03A

Number one priority for a woman should never be her job and career but family and care of the next generation.

When feminism, alcohol, pornography and other degenerate "democratic" things become normal one day in Iran you will understand what I was talking about, but it will be too late.
I have noticed that young people in Iran do not try to learn from mistakes that west have made but they are actually trying to be like them, thats sad.

Man_of_Faith

Sonny,

Payment should depend on work effort and not on gender. You are right it is not about equal payment between genders but about compensation for work efforts. At old fashioned physical work men may excel, but that does not say all occupations need to disqualify women from a high contribution. Everything is not about muscles you know.

And not everything in our lives is about reproduction. A woman is not busy with her childbirth and nurturing for her whole life and she does not necessarily have to marry at all nor get children but can pursue a career for the benefit of humanity.

If we only pursue our fleshly desires is when we lose.

And Iran is beginning to have youths who imitate the negative aspects of the "West". Drugs including alcohol, pornography and clearly immoral things are never beneficial for the development of a nation, but the path the nation takes must be elaborated upon using wisdom and not just enforced through dogmatism and zealotry. But when science and development goes forward but sects do not adapt then this is how it goes. The sects need to explain the faith so people understand why sex, drugs etc is not beneficial for the spiritual wellbeing, but when it is just a religious dogma then people might stop listening.

However, aspects of the feminine awakening/focus in Iran is good because women are treated much better here than in other so-called Islamic nations. It is not feminism in Iran. It is more about women rights. Yet there is a long way to go for the I.R of Iran. Traditional values are plentiful here.

Salaam

Sonny

And not everything in our lives is about reproduction. A woman is not busy with her childbirth and nurturing for her whole life and she does not necessarily have to marry at all nor get children but can pursue a career for the benefit of humanity.

What have been you smoking?

huruf

I am all for separation of the sexes. In fact I would resadily adopt the two planet solution to solve all of the unnecessary problems that come from having a species that has two sexes. In one planet the women with a fridge to keep the semen for procreation and in another planet the males from ages two upwards. That wouldt protect the males from the awfully dangerous women and keep the bitches from pestering and endangering poor males pure morals.

Yes, I am being sarcastic.

Salaam

Man_of_Faith

I loved your sarcasm huruf. For a second I thought you were being serious.

For those who are neanderthal brained it is not relieving that beyond the fleshly bodies we possess there are no sexes. The souls are asexual.

Salaam

Man_of_Faith

Nothing Sonny. But if you argue against that then you love the world as it is and how the beastly bodies are supposed to work in their primitive and instinctive ways which is only part of a test.

The real consciousness is not bound to any physical body.

Salaam

roshan_m

Thanks Zulf, Man of Faith and huruf and others for your input in this thread, especially you guys (Zulf and MoF) let me maintain some faith in manhood, as for Sonny, well I just hope that your broken soul will not destroy too many lives on this earth with such attitude..

Stay blessed
M.

Jafar

Interesting question, of course it stems from the male ego and insecurity of some men but it is clearly stronger in some cultures than others.

It got me thinking why in some cultures gender segregation was never a big deal such us in Slavic cultures (Central, Eastern Europe) - and no, even the Christianity never reinforced that, while in others it was a big deal. My explanations, going beyond the religions that were practiced in such places are the following

Climate - well in hot climate men get aroused quicker, so called 'purdah' was to 'protect' women from hassle. I don't want to generalize but honestly from personal experience verbal harassment of women, or let's say 'macho culture' in hot countries is much more common than in more moderate or colder Nordic climate.
Tribal culture. My friend who was actually married to Arab Muslim guy brought this insight to me. She said that maybe there is this thing with the famous hospitability Arab culture, where guests are not refused anything while at home of the friend. Maybe purdah was established there to 'protect' the wife(s) from jealous eye of the male guest?

Climate is definitely not the factor..
Have you put into your consideration the hot tropical people of Austronesians and Polynesians?
They don't have any word of "Winter" within their language as it's always hot and summer..

Women can freely and safely dress like below in public.. (without any harassment)
http//onestep4ward.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/SAM_1780-200x300.jpg

And they have a very relaxed / minimum "gender segregation" even when compared to "Today's Slavic Culture"..

The "Over Protective" nature of certain tradition / culture / religion towards women has a positive correlation with "NOMADIC LIFESTYLE" and "DANGEROUS ENVIRONMENT".

You'll observe the same characteristic between the desert nomadic people of Levant + Arabia and the steppe nomadic people of Mongolia. Warfare among tribes was (and is) common on nomadic people within those area.. And women along with cattle is viewed as "War Booty".. Upon a successful raid of a village, the winning tribe will kill all remaining adult men and boys and keep the girls and women as slave, along with cattle, camel and horses..

An insight on how nomadic mongolian environment looks like in 12th century..
Biography of Genghis Khan..
https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=nNonYbb4dnA

And also remember that the (Ancient) Egyptian was among the oldest civilization to have a woman (queen) as their leader..
They live in a hot environment but they don't live a nomadic lifestyle and their environment (back then, during pharaoh era) was not dangerous, tribal war and village raid is very very rare...

roshan_m

Thanks Jafar for your input on the variables affecting gender segregation. Of course, my proposals were somehow intuitive and ready for improvement. Actually I also started thinking about some indigenous African tribes in Sudan and their, quite open dress code
https//www.google.hu/search?q=nuba&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=KUL3VO30L8v1UMX6gogI&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAQ&biw=1708&bih=786&dpr=0.8

So yes, let's say that climate is not the explanatory variable, but I also liked I guess amin's variable of 'sexual expression' within the cultures.

It's quite enriching to have your comments here

Sonny

Thanks Jafar for your input on the variables affecting gender segregation. Of course, my proposals were somehow intuitive and ready for improvement. Actually I also started thinking about some indigenous African tribes in Sudan and their, quite open dress code
https//www.google.hu/search?q=nuba&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=KUL3VO30L8v1UMX6gogI&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAQ&biw=1708&bih=786&dpr=0.8

So yes, let's say that climate is not the explanatory variable, but I also liked I guess amin's variable of 'sexual expression' within the cultures.

It's quite enriching to have your comments here

Those are not humans, almost made me puke lol

EDIT You forgot to mention that these tribes running naked around fire and worshiping spirit gods(jinns), no wonder they are living that way and were never civilized.

Jafar, posting naked pictures of subhumans is against rules.

Sonny

Thanks Zulf, Man of Faith and huruf and others for your input in this thread, especially you guys (Zulf and MoF) let me maintain some faith in manhood, as for Sonny, well I just hope that your broken soul will not destroy too many lives on this earth with such attitude..

Ti mala da sutis da ti ne pokazem manhood.

huruf

I loved your sarcasm huruf. For a second I thought you were being serious.

For those who are neanderthal brained it is not relieving that beyond the fleshly bodies we possess there are no sexes. The souls are asexual.

Salaam

ASs we see such a divergence of opinions I thought I would make it clear that it was sarcasm. It would not have been fantastic that somebody thought it was serious.

Gointo into the question and pushing our luck why, I would not mind separation of the sexes if my sedx was the one who could do everything and nothing or very, very, very very little forbidden and it was the other sex to which everything was forbidden. That of course would be unfair, but that is the way it has been with that ever so ideal separation of the sexes while it has existed. Purdah for loosers.

No, really, no segregation for God'ssake, it turns out it is always for the prejudice of the most vulnerable. Not the weaker but the most vulnerable, who obviously are the women. Four walls for them (feminine), the whole world for them (masculine). When boys are ready to accept four walls for them (masculine) and the whole world for them (feminine) may be they will be taken seriously when they suggest that sex segregation si SOOOOOO GOOD.

At any rate the Qur'an ignores the delicacy of such perversion. Kee exes separate but them want to have plenty of women at home for one's self selfish comfort. What is that if not hyprocrisy?

And then they talk so bad about oh those women who want to be like men... No they do not want to be like men, they want also the u nwarranted privileges men keep jealously for themselves and doi not share with the expendable sex.

Salaam

Jafar

At any rate the Qur'an ignores the delicacy of such perversion. Kee exes separate but them want to have plenty of women at home for one's self selfish comfort. What is that if not hyprocrisy?

It's a hypocrisy... women in the western world (middle east and nomadic central asia included) was and is seen as property..
And the book titled Quran that we have today was written within such context of culture..
Thus.. nothing strange here...

And then they talk so bad about oh those women who want to be like men... No they do not want to be like men, they want also the u nwarranted privileges men keep jealously for themselves and doi not share with the expendable sex.
Salaam

There are many tradition / culture / religion which adopted "Matriarchy"..
Such as this
https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=bbzG0n3shTM
Where women inherit and own all property and no word for 'husband', 'father' or 'marriage' in their language..

There are few others.. most of them are in the east..

Such society also share similar characteristics... SEDENTARY LIFESTYLE and PEACEFUL ENVIRONMENT..

Further expanding the observation to other primates than human, one can observe the same pattern between

BONOBO Society (Matriarchal, Sedentary, Peaceful)
CHIMPANZEE Society (Patriarchal, Predatory (Hunting), Aggressive)

Yosemite

have you seen how classes perform when they're "segregated"?

anyway, would you call "segregation" the following picture?

http//i.picpar.com/hxpb.png

no one can say with a straight face that in the west, the invisible boogeyman called "patriarchy" is responsible for the differences seen in the picture
people in the west are free to follow their desires, to study what they want, and the picture shows the result

segregation is pretty much necessary in the military, one just has to look at the performance of women versus men when it comes to the different physical tests, endurance and what not

in civil life, the work life, there would be no reason to force segregation in a business, and the concerns of people flirting at work, well that's a result of that society's lack of morals, they keep pushing boundaries, the moral relativists never stop relativising, the apologists will let it slide, in the end illegitimacy rates are skyrocketing in the US for example, same for divorce rates, same for abortions

There are many tradition / culture / religion which adopted "Matriarchy"..
Such as this
https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=bbzG0n3shTM
Where women inherit and own all property and no word for 'husband', 'father' or 'marriage' in their language..

have you looked at who's imposing this lifestyle on this group of people within china? have you research who benefits from this group's work in china?

you'll be surprised