What is the origin of gender segregation

Man_of_Faith

Sonny,

Payment should depend on work effort and not on gender. You are right it is not about equal payment between genders but about compensation for work efforts. At old fashioned physical work men may excel, but that does not say all occupations need to disqualify women from a high contribution. Everything is not about muscles you know.

And not everything in our lives is about reproduction. A woman is not busy with her childbirth and nurturing for her whole life and she does not necessarily have to marry at all nor get children but can pursue a career for the benefit of humanity.

If we only pursue our fleshly desires is when we lose.

And Iran is beginning to have youths who imitate the negative aspects of the "West". Drugs including alcohol, pornography and clearly immoral things are never beneficial for the development of a nation, but the path the nation takes must be elaborated upon using wisdom and not just enforced through dogmatism and zealotry. But when science and development goes forward but sects do not adapt then this is how it goes. The sects need to explain the faith so people understand why sex, drugs etc is not beneficial for the spiritual wellbeing, but when it is just a religious dogma then people might stop listening.

However, aspects of the feminine awakening/focus in Iran is good because women are treated much better here than in other so-called Islamic nations. It is not feminism in Iran. It is more about women rights. Yet there is a long way to go for the I.R of Iran. Traditional values are plentiful here.

Salaam

Sonny

And not everything in our lives is about reproduction. A woman is not busy with her childbirth and nurturing for her whole life and she does not necessarily have to marry at all nor get children but can pursue a career for the benefit of humanity.

What have been you smoking?

huruf

I am all for separation of the sexes. In fact I would resadily adopt the two planet solution to solve all of the unnecessary problems that come from having a species that has two sexes. In one planet the women with a fridge to keep the semen for procreation and in another planet the males from ages two upwards. That wouldt protect the males from the awfully dangerous women and keep the bitches from pestering and endangering poor males pure morals.

Yes, I am being sarcastic.

Salaam

Man_of_Faith

I loved your sarcasm huruf. For a second I thought you were being serious.

For those who are neanderthal brained it is not relieving that beyond the fleshly bodies we possess there are no sexes. The souls are asexual.

Salaam

Man_of_Faith

Nothing Sonny. But if you argue against that then you love the world as it is and how the beastly bodies are supposed to work in their primitive and instinctive ways which is only part of a test.

The real consciousness is not bound to any physical body.

Salaam

roshan_m

Thanks Zulf, Man of Faith and huruf and others for your input in this thread, especially you guys (Zulf and MoF) let me maintain some faith in manhood, as for Sonny, well I just hope that your broken soul will not destroy too many lives on this earth with such attitude..

Stay blessed
M.

Jafar

Interesting question, of course it stems from the male ego and insecurity of some men but it is clearly stronger in some cultures than others.

It got me thinking why in some cultures gender segregation was never a big deal such us in Slavic cultures (Central, Eastern Europe) - and no, even the Christianity never reinforced that, while in others it was a big deal. My explanations, going beyond the religions that were practiced in such places are the following

Climate - well in hot climate men get aroused quicker, so called 'purdah' was to 'protect' women from hassle. I don't want to generalize but honestly from personal experience verbal harassment of women, or let's say 'macho culture' in hot countries is much more common than in more moderate or colder Nordic climate.
Tribal culture. My friend who was actually married to Arab Muslim guy brought this insight to me. She said that maybe there is this thing with the famous hospitability Arab culture, where guests are not refused anything while at home of the friend. Maybe purdah was established there to 'protect' the wife(s) from jealous eye of the male guest?

Climate is definitely not the factor..
Have you put into your consideration the hot tropical people of Austronesians and Polynesians?
They don't have any word of "Winter" within their language as it's always hot and summer..

Women can freely and safely dress like below in public.. (without any harassment)
http//onestep4ward.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/SAM_1780-200x300.jpg

And they have a very relaxed / minimum "gender segregation" even when compared to "Today's Slavic Culture"..

The "Over Protective" nature of certain tradition / culture / religion towards women has a positive correlation with "NOMADIC LIFESTYLE" and "DANGEROUS ENVIRONMENT".

You'll observe the same characteristic between the desert nomadic people of Levant + Arabia and the steppe nomadic people of Mongolia. Warfare among tribes was (and is) common on nomadic people within those area.. And women along with cattle is viewed as "War Booty".. Upon a successful raid of a village, the winning tribe will kill all remaining adult men and boys and keep the girls and women as slave, along with cattle, camel and horses..

An insight on how nomadic mongolian environment looks like in 12th century..
Biography of Genghis Khan..
https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=nNonYbb4dnA

And also remember that the (Ancient) Egyptian was among the oldest civilization to have a woman (queen) as their leader..
They live in a hot environment but they don't live a nomadic lifestyle and their environment (back then, during pharaoh era) was not dangerous, tribal war and village raid is very very rare...

roshan_m

Thanks Jafar for your input on the variables affecting gender segregation. Of course, my proposals were somehow intuitive and ready for improvement. Actually I also started thinking about some indigenous African tribes in Sudan and their, quite open dress code
https//www.google.hu/search?q=nuba&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=KUL3VO30L8v1UMX6gogI&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAQ&biw=1708&bih=786&dpr=0.8

So yes, let's say that climate is not the explanatory variable, but I also liked I guess amin's variable of 'sexual expression' within the cultures.

It's quite enriching to have your comments here

Sonny

Thanks Jafar for your input on the variables affecting gender segregation. Of course, my proposals were somehow intuitive and ready for improvement. Actually I also started thinking about some indigenous African tribes in Sudan and their, quite open dress code
https//www.google.hu/search?q=nuba&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=KUL3VO30L8v1UMX6gogI&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAQ&biw=1708&bih=786&dpr=0.8

So yes, let's say that climate is not the explanatory variable, but I also liked I guess amin's variable of 'sexual expression' within the cultures.

It's quite enriching to have your comments here

Those are not humans, almost made me puke lol

EDIT You forgot to mention that these tribes running naked around fire and worshiping spirit gods(jinns), no wonder they are living that way and were never civilized.

Jafar, posting naked pictures of subhumans is against rules.

Sonny

Thanks Zulf, Man of Faith and huruf and others for your input in this thread, especially you guys (Zulf and MoF) let me maintain some faith in manhood, as for Sonny, well I just hope that your broken soul will not destroy too many lives on this earth with such attitude..

Ti mala da sutis da ti ne pokazem manhood.

huruf

I loved your sarcasm huruf. For a second I thought you were being serious.

For those who are neanderthal brained it is not relieving that beyond the fleshly bodies we possess there are no sexes. The souls are asexual.

Salaam

ASs we see such a divergence of opinions I thought I would make it clear that it was sarcasm. It would not have been fantastic that somebody thought it was serious.

Gointo into the question and pushing our luck why, I would not mind separation of the sexes if my sedx was the one who could do everything and nothing or very, very, very very little forbidden and it was the other sex to which everything was forbidden. That of course would be unfair, but that is the way it has been with that ever so ideal separation of the sexes while it has existed. Purdah for loosers.

No, really, no segregation for God'ssake, it turns out it is always for the prejudice of the most vulnerable. Not the weaker but the most vulnerable, who obviously are the women. Four walls for them (feminine), the whole world for them (masculine). When boys are ready to accept four walls for them (masculine) and the whole world for them (feminine) may be they will be taken seriously when they suggest that sex segregation si SOOOOOO GOOD.

At any rate the Qur'an ignores the delicacy of such perversion. Kee exes separate but them want to have plenty of women at home for one's self selfish comfort. What is that if not hyprocrisy?

And then they talk so bad about oh those women who want to be like men... No they do not want to be like men, they want also the u nwarranted privileges men keep jealously for themselves and doi not share with the expendable sex.

Salaam

Jafar

At any rate the Qur'an ignores the delicacy of such perversion. Kee exes separate but them want to have plenty of women at home for one's self selfish comfort. What is that if not hyprocrisy?

It's a hypocrisy... women in the western world (middle east and nomadic central asia included) was and is seen as property..
And the book titled Quran that we have today was written within such context of culture..
Thus.. nothing strange here...

And then they talk so bad about oh those women who want to be like men... No they do not want to be like men, they want also the u nwarranted privileges men keep jealously for themselves and doi not share with the expendable sex.
Salaam

There are many tradition / culture / religion which adopted "Matriarchy"..
Such as this
https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=bbzG0n3shTM
Where women inherit and own all property and no word for 'husband', 'father' or 'marriage' in their language..

There are few others.. most of them are in the east..

Such society also share similar characteristics... SEDENTARY LIFESTYLE and PEACEFUL ENVIRONMENT..

Further expanding the observation to other primates than human, one can observe the same pattern between

BONOBO Society (Matriarchal, Sedentary, Peaceful)
CHIMPANZEE Society (Patriarchal, Predatory (Hunting), Aggressive)

Yosemite

have you seen how classes perform when they're "segregated"?

anyway, would you call "segregation" the following picture?

http//i.picpar.com/hxpb.png

no one can say with a straight face that in the west, the invisible boogeyman called "patriarchy" is responsible for the differences seen in the picture
people in the west are free to follow their desires, to study what they want, and the picture shows the result

segregation is pretty much necessary in the military, one just has to look at the performance of women versus men when it comes to the different physical tests, endurance and what not

in civil life, the work life, there would be no reason to force segregation in a business, and the concerns of people flirting at work, well that's a result of that society's lack of morals, they keep pushing boundaries, the moral relativists never stop relativising, the apologists will let it slide, in the end illegitimacy rates are skyrocketing in the US for example, same for divorce rates, same for abortions

There are many tradition / culture / religion which adopted "Matriarchy"..
Such as this
https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=bbzG0n3shTM
Where women inherit and own all property and no word for 'husband', 'father' or 'marriage' in their language..

have you looked at who's imposing this lifestyle on this group of people within china? have you research who benefits from this group's work in china?

you'll be surprised

Jafar

segregation is pretty much necessary in the military, one just has to look at the performance of women versus men when it comes to the different physical tests, endurance and what not

Within peaceful environment, there is no need for military..

A case study of other primates;
Bonobo female gain the upper hand because conflict among groups are rare within bonobo society..
And the continuation of the species lies more in the hand of the female.. and not male..

in the end illegitimacy rates are skyrocketing in the US for example, same for divorce rates, same for abortions

have you looked at who's imposing this lifestyle on this group of people within china? have you research who benefits from this group's work in china?

you'll be surprised

No nobody imposed 'matriarchal' culture to the Mosuo..
On contrary the Modern Chinese government (and also Han emperor in the past) did tried to "convert" them to the "straight path" (read Patriarchal) but more often they've failed..

(Modern) people came up with myriad of hypothesis on the "Why and how they adopted such culture", yet so far they have 0 evidence..

And since there isn't any marriage (or husband or father) within their society..
Definitely 100% of all people within Mosuo society are all "illegitimate"..
And they've been doing that for at least the past 2000 years..

Again, their environment are peaceful for the past few centuries.. thus one cannot find any "soldier" or "warlord" within their society as they have no need for it..

reel

Oh please, US is the most degenerate nation on the entire planet. Stop giving me them as an example.

peace
Not even in Middle East a worker can be reported for simply "starring" at a worker. But in US, it is possible. Here is sample of how to recognize "harassment" in American workplace.

Recognizing Harassment

Harassment may be subtle, manipulative and is not always evident. It does not refer to occasional compliments of a socially acceptable nature. It refers to behavior that is not welcome and is personally offensive. All forms of gender harassment are covered. Men can be sexually harassed; men can harass men;

Women can harass other women. Offenders can be managers, supervisors, co-workers, and non-employees such as clients or vendors.

Some examples

Verbal
Jokes, insults and innuendoes (based on race, sex, age, disability, etc.), degrading sexual remarks, referring to someone as a stud, hunk or babe; whistling; cat calls; comments on a persons body or sex life, or pressures for sexual favors.

Non-Verbal
Gestures, staring, touching, hugging, patting, blocking a person's movement, standing too close, brushing against a person's body, or display of sexually suggestive or degrading pictures, racist or other derogatory cartoons or drawings.

https//dwd.wisconsin.gov/er/discrimination_civil_rights/publication_erd_10449_p.htm

Within peaceful environment, there is no need for military..

Very true. At least 15 countries in the world don't have defense system. But they are all happy and free of enemies.

have you seen how classes perform when they're "segregated"?

I first studied in a segregated school setting. We didn't perform well. We were known as losers working hard to lose every year. However, in Midwest of America, I went to a top rated high school. Since it was public, it was coed. The performance thing has more to do with good teachers, books and thirst to allow the students to succeed.
The biggest problem of our system is that we don't have uniforms. Majority of the students are more worried about what new clothes to wear than the next exam.

I still like a bit of segregation.

N00B

I keep hearing from scientists that gender segregation was quite a thing among cavemen. In fact the idea of wife working at home and man going out to work started with them.
While men hunted, women stayed in the cave looking after children. It has something to do with "protection".

Point to note There is no evidence of this.

But I do see that gender segregation existed in Egyptian kingdom of Pharaohs.

Some people nowadays seem to think that ancient Egyptian women lived in an almost ideal world of equality. This was not the case. They may have had more rights and independence than women in other ancient societies, but they were not treated as equals by men. Throughout history they had little direct influence on public affairs. Their choice of profession was limited mostly to that of mistress of the house, though some became priestesses, others entertainers and a small handful even came to rule the country, be it as regent or as pharaoh. But the life of the ordinary ancient Egyptian woman was restricted to doing household chores, though one should not forget that the options the average ancient Egyptian man had were barely more numerous.http//www.reshafim.org.il/ad/egypt/people/couples.htm

Perhaps when Muslims came to Egypt, they were influenced by these segregation customs. This also applies to Byzantine society

A woman living in the age of Byzantium spent the greater part of her life in her home. We read, for instance, in Kekavmenos' s "Strategikon" "Keep your daughters as prisoners, confined and inconspicuous". A woman was invariably accompanied whenever she left her house to go to church, attend a festivity, visit the baths, or call on her relations -- the sole activities of a woman outside her own home that were socially acceptable.

Moreover, it was not proper for a woman to sit at table with men, unless they were close relatives, such as her father, husband, or brothers. Most often she would eat in a separate room, just as she would spend her days in rooms apart from the menfolk. She learnt all about household matters from a very early age; her education, in contrast, was usually limited to reading and writing. Very few women acquired a wider learning.
http//www.macedonian-heritage.gr/HellenicMacedonia/en/D2.5.html

reel

Perhaps when Muslims came to Egypt, they were influenced by these segregation customs. This also applies to Byzantine society

I see that the answer to the question is hardest to find. But I still came across an interesting paper according to which it was not religion, but agriculture which began the gender based division of labor followed by the segregation.

This paper seeks to better understand the historical origins of current differences in norms and beliefs about the appropriate role of women in society. We test the hypothesis that traditional agricultural practices influenced the historical gender division of labor and the evolution and persistence of gender norms. We find that, consistent with existing hypotheses, the descendants of societies that traditionally practiced plough agriculture, today have lower rates of female participation in the workplace, in politics, and in entrepreneurial activities, as well as a greater prevalence of attitudes favoring gender inequality. We identify the causal impact of traditional plough use by exploiting variation in the historical geo-climatic suitability of the environment for growing crops that differentially benefited from the adoption of the plough. Our IV estimates, based on this variation, support the findings from OLS. To isolate the importance of cultural transmission as a mechanism, we examine female labor force participation of second-generation immigrants living within the US.http//freakonomics.com/2011/06/23/did-gender-inequility-start-with-the-plow/

seekingthetruth

Hello,

Generally, sexism and gender segregation was found in most of the ancient nations and religions. I've found many repulsive texts against women in Islam and are derived from other religions such as Zoroastrian and Judaism. For me, i think it results from the social culture and standards rather than religions or women and men rule in life, and the social culture & standards are mainly affected by politics, leaders and ideology.

Although there are some queens in islamic period e.g. Arwa bint Mohammed the queen of Yemen (1138 - 1085 A.D.) people tend to not mention that for clearly political reason.

In my country, 30 years ago women were not considered as only a flesh for desires as what happening now. Nowadays, even women with veils may face harassment, while before 30 years ago women used to wear what they want and they did not even think about facing harassment or standardization. The reason of this change was the new politics and ideology " Islamic caliphate". Nowadays, although women have an important role out side the house and it is familiar to see a woman who supports a family while the man of the family has no job, but she still has the same responsibilities towards her home and family without any participation form the man. Also, they are socially inferior.

The idea of a man work and a woman stay at home to take care of children and house is not the merely reason. In my country, some rural tribes in some areas, the woman is the one who work in agriculture, take care of children and house and with inferior social status. While the man literally has fewer responsibilities with more privileges.

The women use do be the cause of most of the sins, since the imaginary story of Adam & Eve. Forcing women to wear veils, separate them and segregate them make "even women feel" like they are just sinful and inferior to men.

But, i have a question , why there are no female prophets?

Regards,

huruf

Maryam is a prophet and there may have been more women prophets although not mentionned in the Qur'an, because not all prophets are mentionned in the Qur'an, just those of the tradition common amonst the people among which lived Muhammad.

The reason for there being fewer women is clear. Prophets come also to set example with their behaviour. Who needs more good examples, those who abuse the other sex or the ones who do not? Obviously the former. Prophets in the Qur'an are examples of self-sacrifice and humility. Women in general needed and need I think not so many examples of that but, males are more eaasily misled into pride becuse they have no burdens of reproduction, so they tend to feel freer to act arrogantly. Of course not to say that all men are like that, but statistically in societies where force and raw ppower gets more respect than meekness and self-sacrifice, are more exposed to the temptation of abusing their advantages.

However, to show an exemplary woman in the field where no male exampple can be valid, Maryam is a prophet, although many crige at the mere thought of it. However in history as presently many muslims, common muslims also think so. Not that it matters what people think but what God disposes matters, but only to say that it is not so universal de denyal of woman prophet as some would like us to think. Only those who deny it, as usual, are the nosier.

Salaam

seekingthetruth

Maryam is a prophet and there may have been more women prophets although not mentionned in the Qur'an, because not all prophets are mentionned in the Qur'an, just those of the tradition common amonst the people among which lived Muhammad.

The reason for there being fewer women is clear. Prophets come also to set example with their behaviour. Who needs more good examples, those who abuse the other sex or the ones who do not? Obviously the former. Prophets in the Qur'an are examples of self-sacrifice and humility. Women in general needed and need I think not so many examples of that but, males are more eaasily misled into pride becuse they have no burdens of reproduction, so they tend to feel freer to act arrogantly. Of course not to say that all men are like that, but statistically in societies where force and raw ppower gets more respect than meekness and self-sacrifice, are more exposed to the temptation of abusing their advantages.

However, to show an exemplary woman in the field where no male exampple can be valid, Maryam is a prophet, although many crige at the mere thought of it. However in history as presently many muslims, common muslims also think so. Not that it matters what people think but what God disposes matters, but only to say that it is not so universal de denyal of woman prophet as some would like us to think. Only those who deny it, as usual, are the nosier.

Salaam

Hello,

Thank you for sharing your thoughts, but she is not mentioned in quran as a prophet clearly, i mean she is called "siddiqa" which means truthful or honest, but not "nabi or rasool". I know by definition that she might be a prophet, but what is the reason for not mentioned any of female prophets "if there are any" and even when a female that she might be a prophet mentioned, she was not described as a prophet. In this verse you can see it clearly

The Messiah, son of Mary, was not but a messenger; messengers have passed on before him. And his mother was a supporter of truth. They both used to eat food. Look how We make clear to them the signs; then look how they are deluded.

Surat Al-Ma'ida, 75.

She is not described as a prophet, in spite of the description of the Messiah as a prophet. He is also added to other prophets, while she is just described as "Siddiqa".

Mention of male prophets only in Quran may increases their ego and pride of men, as they feel that only males have abilities to lead and more privileges. If we consider that only male prophets were mentioned to set examples for men as they need it more than women, it is gonna be a kind of gender discrimination. Either the 2 sexes are not equal, or the Quran was sent for specific people who has these characteristics "e.g. Arabs". Maybe there is another reason, who knows.

Regards