What is the origin of gender segregation

roshan_m

Thanks Zulf, Man of Faith and huruf and others for your input in this thread, especially you guys (Zulf and MoF) let me maintain some faith in manhood, as for Sonny, well I just hope that your broken soul will not destroy too many lives on this earth with such attitude..

Stay blessed
M.

Jafar

Interesting question, of course it stems from the male ego and insecurity of some men but it is clearly stronger in some cultures than others.

It got me thinking why in some cultures gender segregation was never a big deal such us in Slavic cultures (Central, Eastern Europe) - and no, even the Christianity never reinforced that, while in others it was a big deal. My explanations, going beyond the religions that were practiced in such places are the following

Climate - well in hot climate men get aroused quicker, so called 'purdah' was to 'protect' women from hassle. I don't want to generalize but honestly from personal experience verbal harassment of women, or let's say 'macho culture' in hot countries is much more common than in more moderate or colder Nordic climate.
Tribal culture. My friend who was actually married to Arab Muslim guy brought this insight to me. She said that maybe there is this thing with the famous hospitability Arab culture, where guests are not refused anything while at home of the friend. Maybe purdah was established there to 'protect' the wife(s) from jealous eye of the male guest?

Climate is definitely not the factor..
Have you put into your consideration the hot tropical people of Austronesians and Polynesians?
They don't have any word of "Winter" within their language as it's always hot and summer..

Women can freely and safely dress like below in public.. (without any harassment)
http//onestep4ward.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/SAM_1780-200x300.jpg

And they have a very relaxed / minimum "gender segregation" even when compared to "Today's Slavic Culture"..

The "Over Protective" nature of certain tradition / culture / religion towards women has a positive correlation with "NOMADIC LIFESTYLE" and "DANGEROUS ENVIRONMENT".

You'll observe the same characteristic between the desert nomadic people of Levant + Arabia and the steppe nomadic people of Mongolia. Warfare among tribes was (and is) common on nomadic people within those area.. And women along with cattle is viewed as "War Booty".. Upon a successful raid of a village, the winning tribe will kill all remaining adult men and boys and keep the girls and women as slave, along with cattle, camel and horses..

An insight on how nomadic mongolian environment looks like in 12th century..
Biography of Genghis Khan..
https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=nNonYbb4dnA

And also remember that the (Ancient) Egyptian was among the oldest civilization to have a woman (queen) as their leader..
They live in a hot environment but they don't live a nomadic lifestyle and their environment (back then, during pharaoh era) was not dangerous, tribal war and village raid is very very rare...

roshan_m

Thanks Jafar for your input on the variables affecting gender segregation. Of course, my proposals were somehow intuitive and ready for improvement. Actually I also started thinking about some indigenous African tribes in Sudan and their, quite open dress code
https//www.google.hu/search?q=nuba&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=KUL3VO30L8v1UMX6gogI&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAQ&biw=1708&bih=786&dpr=0.8

So yes, let's say that climate is not the explanatory variable, but I also liked I guess amin's variable of 'sexual expression' within the cultures.

It's quite enriching to have your comments here

Sonny

Thanks Jafar for your input on the variables affecting gender segregation. Of course, my proposals were somehow intuitive and ready for improvement. Actually I also started thinking about some indigenous African tribes in Sudan and their, quite open dress code
https//www.google.hu/search?q=nuba&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=KUL3VO30L8v1UMX6gogI&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAQ&biw=1708&bih=786&dpr=0.8

So yes, let's say that climate is not the explanatory variable, but I also liked I guess amin's variable of 'sexual expression' within the cultures.

It's quite enriching to have your comments here

Those are not humans, almost made me puke lol

EDIT You forgot to mention that these tribes running naked around fire and worshiping spirit gods(jinns), no wonder they are living that way and were never civilized.

Jafar, posting naked pictures of subhumans is against rules.

Sonny

Thanks Zulf, Man of Faith and huruf and others for your input in this thread, especially you guys (Zulf and MoF) let me maintain some faith in manhood, as for Sonny, well I just hope that your broken soul will not destroy too many lives on this earth with such attitude..

Ti mala da sutis da ti ne pokazem manhood.

huruf

I loved your sarcasm huruf. For a second I thought you were being serious.

For those who are neanderthal brained it is not relieving that beyond the fleshly bodies we possess there are no sexes. The souls are asexual.

Salaam

ASs we see such a divergence of opinions I thought I would make it clear that it was sarcasm. It would not have been fantastic that somebody thought it was serious.

Gointo into the question and pushing our luck why, I would not mind separation of the sexes if my sedx was the one who could do everything and nothing or very, very, very very little forbidden and it was the other sex to which everything was forbidden. That of course would be unfair, but that is the way it has been with that ever so ideal separation of the sexes while it has existed. Purdah for loosers.

No, really, no segregation for God'ssake, it turns out it is always for the prejudice of the most vulnerable. Not the weaker but the most vulnerable, who obviously are the women. Four walls for them (feminine), the whole world for them (masculine). When boys are ready to accept four walls for them (masculine) and the whole world for them (feminine) may be they will be taken seriously when they suggest that sex segregation si SOOOOOO GOOD.

At any rate the Qur'an ignores the delicacy of such perversion. Kee exes separate but them want to have plenty of women at home for one's self selfish comfort. What is that if not hyprocrisy?

And then they talk so bad about oh those women who want to be like men... No they do not want to be like men, they want also the u nwarranted privileges men keep jealously for themselves and doi not share with the expendable sex.

Salaam

Jafar

At any rate the Qur'an ignores the delicacy of such perversion. Kee exes separate but them want to have plenty of women at home for one's self selfish comfort. What is that if not hyprocrisy?

It's a hypocrisy... women in the western world (middle east and nomadic central asia included) was and is seen as property..
And the book titled Quran that we have today was written within such context of culture..
Thus.. nothing strange here...

And then they talk so bad about oh those women who want to be like men... No they do not want to be like men, they want also the u nwarranted privileges men keep jealously for themselves and doi not share with the expendable sex.
Salaam

There are many tradition / culture / religion which adopted "Matriarchy"..
Such as this
https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=bbzG0n3shTM
Where women inherit and own all property and no word for 'husband', 'father' or 'marriage' in their language..

There are few others.. most of them are in the east..

Such society also share similar characteristics... SEDENTARY LIFESTYLE and PEACEFUL ENVIRONMENT..

Further expanding the observation to other primates than human, one can observe the same pattern between

BONOBO Society (Matriarchal, Sedentary, Peaceful)
CHIMPANZEE Society (Patriarchal, Predatory (Hunting), Aggressive)

Yosemite

have you seen how classes perform when they're "segregated"?

anyway, would you call "segregation" the following picture?

http//i.picpar.com/hxpb.png

no one can say with a straight face that in the west, the invisible boogeyman called "patriarchy" is responsible for the differences seen in the picture
people in the west are free to follow their desires, to study what they want, and the picture shows the result

segregation is pretty much necessary in the military, one just has to look at the performance of women versus men when it comes to the different physical tests, endurance and what not

in civil life, the work life, there would be no reason to force segregation in a business, and the concerns of people flirting at work, well that's a result of that society's lack of morals, they keep pushing boundaries, the moral relativists never stop relativising, the apologists will let it slide, in the end illegitimacy rates are skyrocketing in the US for example, same for divorce rates, same for abortions

There are many tradition / culture / religion which adopted "Matriarchy"..
Such as this
https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=bbzG0n3shTM
Where women inherit and own all property and no word for 'husband', 'father' or 'marriage' in their language..

have you looked at who's imposing this lifestyle on this group of people within china? have you research who benefits from this group's work in china?

you'll be surprised

Jafar

segregation is pretty much necessary in the military, one just has to look at the performance of women versus men when it comes to the different physical tests, endurance and what not

Within peaceful environment, there is no need for military..

A case study of other primates;
Bonobo female gain the upper hand because conflict among groups are rare within bonobo society..
And the continuation of the species lies more in the hand of the female.. and not male..

in the end illegitimacy rates are skyrocketing in the US for example, same for divorce rates, same for abortions

have you looked at who's imposing this lifestyle on this group of people within china? have you research who benefits from this group's work in china?

you'll be surprised

No nobody imposed 'matriarchal' culture to the Mosuo..
On contrary the Modern Chinese government (and also Han emperor in the past) did tried to "convert" them to the "straight path" (read Patriarchal) but more often they've failed..

(Modern) people came up with myriad of hypothesis on the "Why and how they adopted such culture", yet so far they have 0 evidence..

And since there isn't any marriage (or husband or father) within their society..
Definitely 100% of all people within Mosuo society are all "illegitimate"..
And they've been doing that for at least the past 2000 years..

Again, their environment are peaceful for the past few centuries.. thus one cannot find any "soldier" or "warlord" within their society as they have no need for it..

reel

Oh please, US is the most degenerate nation on the entire planet. Stop giving me them as an example.

peace
Not even in Middle East a worker can be reported for simply "starring" at a worker. But in US, it is possible. Here is sample of how to recognize "harassment" in American workplace.

Recognizing Harassment

Harassment may be subtle, manipulative and is not always evident. It does not refer to occasional compliments of a socially acceptable nature. It refers to behavior that is not welcome and is personally offensive. All forms of gender harassment are covered. Men can be sexually harassed; men can harass men;

Women can harass other women. Offenders can be managers, supervisors, co-workers, and non-employees such as clients or vendors.

Some examples

Verbal
Jokes, insults and innuendoes (based on race, sex, age, disability, etc.), degrading sexual remarks, referring to someone as a stud, hunk or babe; whistling; cat calls; comments on a persons body or sex life, or pressures for sexual favors.

Non-Verbal
Gestures, staring, touching, hugging, patting, blocking a person's movement, standing too close, brushing against a person's body, or display of sexually suggestive or degrading pictures, racist or other derogatory cartoons or drawings.

https//dwd.wisconsin.gov/er/discrimination_civil_rights/publication_erd_10449_p.htm

Within peaceful environment, there is no need for military..

Very true. At least 15 countries in the world don't have defense system. But they are all happy and free of enemies.

have you seen how classes perform when they're "segregated"?

I first studied in a segregated school setting. We didn't perform well. We were known as losers working hard to lose every year. However, in Midwest of America, I went to a top rated high school. Since it was public, it was coed. The performance thing has more to do with good teachers, books and thirst to allow the students to succeed.
The biggest problem of our system is that we don't have uniforms. Majority of the students are more worried about what new clothes to wear than the next exam.

I still like a bit of segregation.

N00B

I keep hearing from scientists that gender segregation was quite a thing among cavemen. In fact the idea of wife working at home and man going out to work started with them.
While men hunted, women stayed in the cave looking after children. It has something to do with "protection".

Point to note There is no evidence of this.

But I do see that gender segregation existed in Egyptian kingdom of Pharaohs.

Some people nowadays seem to think that ancient Egyptian women lived in an almost ideal world of equality. This was not the case. They may have had more rights and independence than women in other ancient societies, but they were not treated as equals by men. Throughout history they had little direct influence on public affairs. Their choice of profession was limited mostly to that of mistress of the house, though some became priestesses, others entertainers and a small handful even came to rule the country, be it as regent or as pharaoh. But the life of the ordinary ancient Egyptian woman was restricted to doing household chores, though one should not forget that the options the average ancient Egyptian man had were barely more numerous.http//www.reshafim.org.il/ad/egypt/people/couples.htm

Perhaps when Muslims came to Egypt, they were influenced by these segregation customs. This also applies to Byzantine society

A woman living in the age of Byzantium spent the greater part of her life in her home. We read, for instance, in Kekavmenos' s "Strategikon" "Keep your daughters as prisoners, confined and inconspicuous". A woman was invariably accompanied whenever she left her house to go to church, attend a festivity, visit the baths, or call on her relations -- the sole activities of a woman outside her own home that were socially acceptable.

Moreover, it was not proper for a woman to sit at table with men, unless they were close relatives, such as her father, husband, or brothers. Most often she would eat in a separate room, just as she would spend her days in rooms apart from the menfolk. She learnt all about household matters from a very early age; her education, in contrast, was usually limited to reading and writing. Very few women acquired a wider learning.
http//www.macedonian-heritage.gr/HellenicMacedonia/en/D2.5.html

reel

Perhaps when Muslims came to Egypt, they were influenced by these segregation customs. This also applies to Byzantine society

I see that the answer to the question is hardest to find. But I still came across an interesting paper according to which it was not religion, but agriculture which began the gender based division of labor followed by the segregation.

This paper seeks to better understand the historical origins of current differences in norms and beliefs about the appropriate role of women in society. We test the hypothesis that traditional agricultural practices influenced the historical gender division of labor and the evolution and persistence of gender norms. We find that, consistent with existing hypotheses, the descendants of societies that traditionally practiced plough agriculture, today have lower rates of female participation in the workplace, in politics, and in entrepreneurial activities, as well as a greater prevalence of attitudes favoring gender inequality. We identify the causal impact of traditional plough use by exploiting variation in the historical geo-climatic suitability of the environment for growing crops that differentially benefited from the adoption of the plough. Our IV estimates, based on this variation, support the findings from OLS. To isolate the importance of cultural transmission as a mechanism, we examine female labor force participation of second-generation immigrants living within the US.http//freakonomics.com/2011/06/23/did-gender-inequility-start-with-the-plow/

seekingthetruth

Hello,

Generally, sexism and gender segregation was found in most of the ancient nations and religions. I've found many repulsive texts against women in Islam and are derived from other religions such as Zoroastrian and Judaism. For me, i think it results from the social culture and standards rather than religions or women and men rule in life, and the social culture & standards are mainly affected by politics, leaders and ideology.

Although there are some queens in islamic period e.g. Arwa bint Mohammed the queen of Yemen (1138 - 1085 A.D.) people tend to not mention that for clearly political reason.

In my country, 30 years ago women were not considered as only a flesh for desires as what happening now. Nowadays, even women with veils may face harassment, while before 30 years ago women used to wear what they want and they did not even think about facing harassment or standardization. The reason of this change was the new politics and ideology " Islamic caliphate". Nowadays, although women have an important role out side the house and it is familiar to see a woman who supports a family while the man of the family has no job, but she still has the same responsibilities towards her home and family without any participation form the man. Also, they are socially inferior.

The idea of a man work and a woman stay at home to take care of children and house is not the merely reason. In my country, some rural tribes in some areas, the woman is the one who work in agriculture, take care of children and house and with inferior social status. While the man literally has fewer responsibilities with more privileges.

The women use do be the cause of most of the sins, since the imaginary story of Adam & Eve. Forcing women to wear veils, separate them and segregate them make "even women feel" like they are just sinful and inferior to men.

But, i have a question , why there are no female prophets?

Regards,

huruf

Maryam is a prophet and there may have been more women prophets although not mentionned in the Qur'an, because not all prophets are mentionned in the Qur'an, just those of the tradition common amonst the people among which lived Muhammad.

The reason for there being fewer women is clear. Prophets come also to set example with their behaviour. Who needs more good examples, those who abuse the other sex or the ones who do not? Obviously the former. Prophets in the Qur'an are examples of self-sacrifice and humility. Women in general needed and need I think not so many examples of that but, males are more eaasily misled into pride becuse they have no burdens of reproduction, so they tend to feel freer to act arrogantly. Of course not to say that all men are like that, but statistically in societies where force and raw ppower gets more respect than meekness and self-sacrifice, are more exposed to the temptation of abusing their advantages.

However, to show an exemplary woman in the field where no male exampple can be valid, Maryam is a prophet, although many crige at the mere thought of it. However in history as presently many muslims, common muslims also think so. Not that it matters what people think but what God disposes matters, but only to say that it is not so universal de denyal of woman prophet as some would like us to think. Only those who deny it, as usual, are the nosier.

Salaam

seekingthetruth

Maryam is a prophet and there may have been more women prophets although not mentionned in the Qur'an, because not all prophets are mentionned in the Qur'an, just those of the tradition common amonst the people among which lived Muhammad.

The reason for there being fewer women is clear. Prophets come also to set example with their behaviour. Who needs more good examples, those who abuse the other sex or the ones who do not? Obviously the former. Prophets in the Qur'an are examples of self-sacrifice and humility. Women in general needed and need I think not so many examples of that but, males are more eaasily misled into pride becuse they have no burdens of reproduction, so they tend to feel freer to act arrogantly. Of course not to say that all men are like that, but statistically in societies where force and raw ppower gets more respect than meekness and self-sacrifice, are more exposed to the temptation of abusing their advantages.

However, to show an exemplary woman in the field where no male exampple can be valid, Maryam is a prophet, although many crige at the mere thought of it. However in history as presently many muslims, common muslims also think so. Not that it matters what people think but what God disposes matters, but only to say that it is not so universal de denyal of woman prophet as some would like us to think. Only those who deny it, as usual, are the nosier.

Salaam

Hello,

Thank you for sharing your thoughts, but she is not mentioned in quran as a prophet clearly, i mean she is called "siddiqa" which means truthful or honest, but not "nabi or rasool". I know by definition that she might be a prophet, but what is the reason for not mentioned any of female prophets "if there are any" and even when a female that she might be a prophet mentioned, she was not described as a prophet. In this verse you can see it clearly

The Messiah, son of Mary, was not but a messenger; messengers have passed on before him. And his mother was a supporter of truth. They both used to eat food. Look how We make clear to them the signs; then look how they are deluded.

Surat Al-Ma'ida, 75.

She is not described as a prophet, in spite of the description of the Messiah as a prophet. He is also added to other prophets, while she is just described as "Siddiqa".

Mention of male prophets only in Quran may increases their ego and pride of men, as they feel that only males have abilities to lead and more privileges. If we consider that only male prophets were mentioned to set examples for men as they need it more than women, it is gonna be a kind of gender discrimination. Either the 2 sexes are not equal, or the Quran was sent for specific people who has these characteristics "e.g. Arabs". Maybe there is another reason, who knows.

Regards

huruf

It is not said literally in that aya, but she is counted amongst the prophets in sura al Anbiya' where one rophet after the other are extolled riminding us of them and their deeds, and there comes Maryam and God breathed into her from His spirit, and her son is mentioned by her name no the other way around but she is not a prophet because malehood forbids it.

No mother of any prophet is mentionned and no prophet is mentionned as son of her mother or father for that mater, but 3isa is. And she is known by herself, named by herself in the Qur'an, not as mother of anybody.

They both were a proophetic team. Both are an aya for the worlds.

And the remark about Maryam being siddiqa and therefore not a prophet I have herad that one and I must say I do find it funny does that mean that 3isa was not siddiq, that He was a lier? So if someone is called truthful he cannot be a Prophet? For God's sake. Haw far in nonsense can we get, I suppose as far as male lack of self esteem can, since it seems tht if all prophets are not male their stock in God's patnership business dips.

As I already stated, very fortunately for humankind, that view of male monopoly is not held by all males, far from that. But those who hold it would like everybody to believe so, and to make us feel that something is being stealed from them if single woman happens to be a prophet.

May God rotects us from omlexed men sensibilities.

Salaam

Man_of_Faith

Salaam,

The Biblical Scriptures mention several women as prophets. By the way, I consider Maryam to be a prophet despite it not being explicitly told in Quran. She had great insight and GOD communicated with her and she knew what others did not know.

The word prophet in Arabic nabi means "enlightened one/one with insight/substance" and the term is more general than people claim. When one reaches far enough on the path they automatically become nabi which can be said to have knowledge and wisdom. Maryam's abstention from the world was what gave her the spiritual ascension. Same with Zachariah, he also was very pious.

Prophet (nabi) does not mean you have to come with a scripture or revelation. Several prophets mentioned in Quran did not write or reveal any particular decree or lore. Merely being inside the realm of GOD marks that you are a prophet and share the depository of knowledge and wisdom. An important parameter is that you have to forsake your instincts/beast body and learn to control it to reach the spiritual you.

I know that many women are upset over the apparent lack of women in the lore and you have both my empathy and sympathy. I would say it is because women in many cases have been prevented by patriarchy. Many men would never have heeded a female prophet. There were probably several prophetesses, but they could not succeed as messengers due to misogyny. Now in 2015 I think that the world would be ready for a prophetess though also to be a beacon.

Salaam

seekingthetruth

Hello,

It is not said literally in that aya, but she is counted amongst the prophets in sura al Anbiya' where one rophet after the other are extolled riminding us of them and their deeds, and there comes Maryam and God breathed into her from His spirit, and her son is mentioned by her name no the other way around but she is not a prophet because malehood forbids it.

No mother of any prophet is mentionned and no prophet is mentionned as son of her mother or father for that mater, but 3isa is. And she is known by herself, named by herself in the Qur'an, not as mother of anybody.

They both were a proophetic team. Both are an aya for the worlds.

And the remark about Maryam being siddiqa and therefore not a prophet I have herad that one and I must say I do find it funny does that mean that 3isa was not siddiq, that He was a lier? So if someone is called truthful he cannot be a Prophet? For God's sake. Haw far in nonsense can we get, I suppose as far as male lack of self esteem can, since it seems tht if all prophets are not male their stock in God's patnership business dips.

As I already stated, very fortunately for humankind, that view of male monopoly is not held by all males, far from that. But those who hold it would like everybody to believe so, and to make us feel that something is being stealed from them if single woman happens to be a prophet.

May God rotects us from omlexed men sensibilities.

Salaam

I respect your opinion but i think that She is not mentioned in Surat Al-Anbya' clearly because she is not considered a prophet as the other prophets. I think the word prophet is more comprehensive than truthful. Beside the fact that she is not described as a nabiia in Quran, all these reasons make me think that she can't be a prophetess.

I agree with you about your opinion on male domination and its effects, and Amen to that )

Salaam,

The Biblical Scriptures mention several women as prophets. By the way, I consider Maryam to be a prophet despite it not being explicitly told in Quran. She had great insight and GOD communicated with her and she knew what others did not know.

The word prophet in Arabic nabi means "enlightened one/one with insight/substance" and the term is more general than people claim. When one reaches far enough on the path they automatically become nabi which can be said to have knowledge and wisdom. Maryam's abstention from the world was what gave her the spiritual ascension. Same with Zachariah, he also was very pious.

Prophet (nabi) does not mean you have to come with a scripture or revelation. Several prophets mentioned in Quran did not write or reveal any particular decree or lore. Merely being inside the realm of GOD marks that you are a prophet and share the depository of knowledge and wisdom. An important parameter is that you have to forsake your instincts/beast body and learn to control it to reach the spiritual you.

I know that many women are upset over the apparent lack of women in the lore and you have both my empathy and sympathy. I would say it is because women in many cases have been prevented by patriarchy. Many men would never have heeded a female prophet. There were probably several prophetesses, but they could not succeed as messengers due to misogyny. Now in 2015 I think that the world would be ready for a prophetess though also to be a beacon.

Salaam

Thank you for these information. So, why female prophets are not mentioned in Quran as in Bible?
I do not think Maryam is a prophetess as i said to huruf above, if she is prophetess, that should be written clearly as the other prophets.

Regarding the word "nabi", i agree with you to some extent, yes not all of the prophets had scriptures or revelations, but your description of "nabi" should be applied to "rasool" or messenger and not "nabi", because in Quran it is said that Muhammad is the latest prophet and the one who has concluded the religion

" "
Muhammad is not the father of any man among you, but he is the messenger of Allah and the Seal of the Prophets; and Allah is ever Aware of all things.
Surat Al-Ahzab, 40.

I choosed this translation as the word "" means the latest sealer, so there is no any prophet after him. Therefore, we may still have messengers "e.g. scholars".

I guess that your point of many men would never have heeded a female prophet, may be it is the reason for not any presence or mention of female prophets in Quran.Thank you for this idea.

Sure it would be ready, but i guess in some countries only, let's hope for the best.

Regards,

Man_of_Faith

Salaam seekingthetruth,

No, surely rasuul is more like a beacon than messenger. A relay, but it does not need to be speaking of concrete information but to be a role model. Messenger is a bit ambiguous.

Nabi is such as that I said and they do not need to write or compose scriptures. Quran does not have to clearly write out that someone is a nabi. It is a general term for insight into Allah. If you know the dynamics of Allah then you are a nabi, no matter if people deny you or not. It is up to each person to accept you though, the nabi could care less and they do not turn violent or initiate wars to convince people (see traditional Islam).

Salaam

Man_of_Faith

And no, khatam does not mean seal, no matter how many scholars say it.

Salaam