The fruits He made in pairs. (13:3)

NielsJacob

Peace All.

In my research I found

A Poppy/Opium has a single fruit/capsule

And then again we can read about capsule In botany a capsule is a type of simple, dry fruit produced by many species of flowering plants
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capsule_(botany)

But is the capsule a fruit in the way its mentioned in Al Quran?

I don't know Arabic so, someone could please help here..

God Bless

NielsJacob

Peace
here I go again.

What about this translation. If we cant say there are more than one of every fruit

He gave all plants their male and female parts (N J Dawood (draft))

reel

133 And it is He who spread the earth and placed therein firmly set mountains and rivers; and from all of the fruits He made therein two mates; He causes the night to cover the day. Indeed in that are signs for a people who give thought.

I have been told by the biologist that inside a fruit there is a male and female. I am looking for the research paper to know whether it is confirmed.

Does anyone know how seeds form in fruits?

runninglikezebras

I think you should reconsider what mates can include. Some examples from plant life

The complexity of the morphology of flowers and its variation within populations has led to a rich terminology.

Androdioecious having male flowers on some plants, bisexual ones on others.
Androecious having only male flowers (the male of a dioecious population); producing pollen but no seed.
Androgynous see bisexual.
Androgynomonoecious having male, female, and bisexual flowers on the same plant, also called trimonoecious.
Andromonoecious having both bisexual and male flowers on the same plant.
Bisexual each flower of each individual has both male and female structures, i.e. it combines both sexes in one structure. Flowers of this kind are called perfect, having both stamens and carpels. Other terms used for this condition are androgynous, hermaphroditic, monoclinous and synoecious.
Dichogamous having sexes developing at different times; producing pollen when the stigmas are not receptive, either protandrous or protogynous. This promotes outcrossing by limiting self-pollination. Some dichogamous plants have bisexual flowers, others have unisexual flowers.
Diclinous see Unisexual.
Dioecious having either only male or only female flowers. No individual plant of the population produces both pollen and ovules. (From the Greek for "two households". See also the Wiktionary entry for dioecious.)
Gynodioecious having hermaphrodite flowers and female flowers on separate plants.
Gynoecious having only female flowers (the female of a dioecious population); producing seed but not pollen.
Gynomonoecious having both bisexual and female flowers on the same plant.
Hermaphroditic see bisexual.
Imperfect (of flowers) having some parts that are normally present not developed, e.g. lacking stamens. See also Unisexual.
Monoclinous see bisexual.
Monoecious In the commoner narrow sense of the term, it refers to plants with unisexual flowers which occur on the same individual. In the broad sense of the term, it also includes plants with bisexual flowers. Individuals bearing separate flowers of both sexes at the same time are called simultaneously or synchronously monoecious. Individuals that bear flowers of one sex at one time are called consecutively monoecious. (From the Greek monos "single" + oikia "house". See also the Wiktionary entry for monoecious.)
Perfect (of flowers) see bisexual.
Polygamodioecious mostly dioecious, but with either a few flowers of the opposite sex or a few bisexual flowers on the same plant.
Polygamomonoecious see polygamous. Or, mostly monoecious, but also partly polygamous.
Polygamous having male, female, and bisexual flowers on the same plant. Also called polygamomonoecious or trimonoecious. Or, with bisexual and at least one of male and female flowers on the same plant.
Protandrous (of dichogamous plants) having male parts of flowers developed before female parts, e.g. having flowers that function first as male and then change to female or producing pollen before the stigmas of the same plant are receptive. (Protoandrous is also used.)
Protogynous (of dichogamous plants) having female parts of flowers developed before male parts, e.g. having flowers that function first as female and then change to male or producing pollen after the stigmas of the same plant are receptive.
Subandroecious having mostly male flowers, with a few female or bisexual flowers.
Subdioecious having some individuals in otherwise dioecious populations with flowers that are not clearly male or female. The population produces normally male or female plants with unisexual flowers, but some plants may have bisexual flowers, some both male and female flowers, and others some combination thereof, such as female and bisexual flowers. The condition is thought to represent a transition between bisexuality and dioecy.
Subgynoecious having mostly female flowers, with a few male or bisexual flowers.

LMC

I am really sorry, I have been reading this post and I got so sad that people are making a problem about 133. I just have to discuss this here. Please forgive me for bringing back an old topic, but I NEED to address it because this thread had no closure!!

Same problem. 133 says "two pairs" meaning a total of 4. Are fruits always produced in fours?

Back to square one; this seems to be a serious contradiction in the quran.

Actually, it is not a contradiction, and in fact, it is a major miracle--if you understand the science behind plant development.

Let's start with

Exalted is He who created (in) pairs all things.

This is an example of the inferiority of the English translation compared to the original Arabic. This verse does not say "in" pairs all things. Rather, if you look at a word for word translation, it says "the pairs", not "in pairs". That is, Allah created "all the pairs" of the Earth. i.e He created all the existing pairs, so what.

kol=all

In arabic you can say "kol alazwaj or "alazwaj kollaha" interchangeably.

And of all things We created two pairs...

In Arabic, (مِنْْ) “min“ could mean "some of"

Definitions from, some, some of .

Some of, of. Indicating a segment of; a portion of. In other words, "Some of all things we created pairs" in essence "a part of all things are made into pairs".

and from all of the fruits He made therein two mates

Same thing as above. A part of all the fruits have in them pairs. In other words of all the fruits, there are pairs within them (fi-ha). This could be referring to some of the fruits with seeds which are diploid (have two sets/pairs of chromosomes, from the male and female components of the plant)

Believe it or not, this verse is a significant MIRACLE. It is something, the prophet Muhammad could not have known! Let me explain. This verse uses the terminology "zawjayni ith'nayni"--which is weird terminology. Zawjayni means "two"/"pair" and Ith'nayin also means "two". That means 4 in total! (2 pairs)! What???! That doesn't make any sense?!! Actually it does

Double fertilization "The launch of seed development in flowering plants (angiosperms) is initiated by the process of double fertilization two male gametes (sperm cells) fuse with two female gametes (egg and central cell) to form the precursor cells of the two major seed components, the embryo and endosperm, respectively." From https//doi.org/10.3389/fpls.2014.00452

This is a peer reviewed scientific article, so cut the BS from those atheist/anti-Muslim websites that claim this Quranic verse is a contradiction because plants only have 1 sperm and 1 egg and that no plants have 2 pairs of sperm and eggs. WRONG THEY ARE!! Double fertilization happens in some fruits (not single fertilization, DOUBLE fertilization). I cannot believe the stupidity and ignorance of anti-muslim apologists and the BS they spew on their websites and forums!

Now, did 7th century Arabs have a concept of double fertilization? How did Muhammad (pbuh) know??

It seems to be that Allah is appealing to 7th century Arabs' astonishment with duality/dualism of the world and is saying "you see that thing that you are astonished by?--Allah created it". Allah said this in such a way to appeal to 7th century Arabs' dispositions while not making it a contradiction for future generations. Allah may have wanted to make it sound like to the 7th century Arabs that he was talking about duality in the world (Quran must support 7th century belief by relating to their dispositions) AND the objective nature of reality that will be discovered through science). If Allah said "and everything that exists in the heaven and the Earth are made in pairs", that would be a clear scientific error, but notice how the Quran was careful to avoid this. It is only human interpretation that messes things up; It is only the English translators that mess things up.

LMC

The word فيها , which was used in Quran 133 means "in"

In other words, we see a "double marriage", "double mating", "double pairing"--double fertilization IN fruits!

Here is a good resource talking about how double fertilization evolved specifically in "FLOWERING PLANTS" (Angiosperms)--fruit IS an organ of flowering plants--fruit is produced by flowering plants.

https//bio.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/Introductory_and_General_Biology/Book%3A_General_Biology_(Boundless)/32%3A_Plant_Reproductive_Development_and_Structure/32.2%3A_Pollination_and_Fertilization/32.2D%3A_Double_Fertilization_in_Plants

Houriya

Peace mclinkin94,

Welcome to the forum, thank you for your insights.

LMC

Per my last post, the Quran says that Some fruits, Allah put in them double marriages (Zawj= pair, marriage). Hmm...double marriages inside fruits, double mating inside fruits--fruits have double mating within them...double fertilization within them...

Welcome to the forum, thank you for your insights.

Thank you, I hope it will be helpful.

jkhan

I am really sorry, I have been reading this post and I got so sad that people are making a problem about 133. I just have to discuss this here. Please forgive me for bringing back an old topic, but I NEED to address it because this thread had no closure!!

Actually, it is not a contradiction, and in fact, it is a major miracle--if you understand the science behind plant development.

Let's start with

Exalted is He who created (in) pairs all things.

This is an example of the inferiority of the English translation compared to the original Arabic. This verse does not say "in" pairs all things. Rather, if you look at a word for word translation, it says "the pairs", not "in pairs". That is, Allah created "all the pairs" of the Earth. i.e He created all the existing pairs, so what.

kol=all

In arabic you can say "kol alazwaj or "alazwaj kollaha" interchangeably.

And of all things We created two pairs...

In Arabic, (مِنْْ) “min“ could mean "some of"

Definitions from, some, some of .

Some of, of. Indicating a segment of; a portion of. In other words, "Some of all things we created pairs" in essence "a part of all things are made into pairs".

and from all of the fruits He made therein two mates

Same thing as above. A part of all the fruits have in them pairs. In other words of all the fruits, there are pairs within them (fi-ha). This could be referring to some of the fruits with seeds which are diploid (have two sets/pairs of chromosomes, from the male and female components of the plant)

Believe it or not, this verse is a significant MIRACLE. It is something, the prophet Muhammad could not have known! Let me explain. This verse uses the terminology "zawjayni ith'nayni"--which is weird terminology. Zawjayni means "two"/"pair" and Ith'nayin also means "two". That means 4 in total! (2 pairs)! What???! That doesn't make any sense?!! Actually it does

Double fertilization "The launch of seed development in flowering plants (angiosperms) is initiated by the process of double fertilization two male gametes (sperm cells) fuse with two female gametes (egg and central cell) to form the precursor cells of the two major seed components, the embryo and endosperm, respectively." From https//doi.org/10.3389/fpls.2014.00452

This is a peer reviewed scientific article, so cut the BS from those atheist/anti-Muslim websites that claim this Quranic verse is a contradiction because plants only have 1 sperm and 1 egg and that no plants have 2 pairs of sperm and eggs. WRONG THEY ARE!! Double fertilization happens in some fruits (not single fertilization, DOUBLE fertilization). I cannot believe the stupidity and ignorance of anti-muslim apologists and the BS they spew on their websites and forums!

Now, did 7th century Arabs have a concept of double fertilization? How did Muhammad (pbuh) know??

It seems to be that Allah is appealing to 7th century Arabs' astonishment with duality/dualism of the world and is saying "you see that thing that you are astonished by?--Allah created it". Allah said this in such a way to appeal to 7th century Arabs' dispositions while not making it a contradiction for future generations. Allah may have wanted to make it sound like to the 7th century Arabs that he was talking about duality in the world (Quran must support 7th century belief by relating to their dispositions) AND the objective nature of reality that will be discovered through science). If Allah said "and everything that exists in the heaven and the Earth are made in pairs", that would be a clear scientific error, but notice how the Quran was careful to avoid this. It is only human interpretation that messes things up; It is only the English translators that mess things up.

Peace..

2327 "So We inspired to him, "Construct the ship under Our observation, and Our inspiration, and when Our command comes and the oven overflows, put into the ship from each two mates and your family, except those for whom the decree has proceeded. And do not address Me concerning those who have wronged; indeed, they are to be drowned..

Would you pls explain the verse 2327 connecting to your above explanation
Thank you..

LMC

Peace..

2327 "So We inspired to him, "Construct the ship under Our observation, and Our inspiration, and when Our command comes and the oven overflows, put into the ship from each two mates and your family, except those for whom the decree has proceeded. And do not address Me concerning those who have wronged; indeed, they are to be drowned..

Would you pls explain the verse 2327 connecting to your above explanation
Thank you..

Yes, I will address this in two parts. First, this reflects the complexity and multiple meanings of the Arabic language and the Quran.

'Zawj' can mean "pairs" or "kinds" or "sorts". It is not clear which one is the case--it can mean either thing depending on the context of the Quran, and sometimes the context of the Quran doesn't give us the answer and remains ambiguous.

'Min kol' can mean "a part of every/each" or "a part from/of the set of all" (ie. a part from ). In other words, it can mean a 'portion of each thing', or it can mean a 'portion of/from the set of all things' (ie. a portion of/from ) For example, imagine the number set --we will call this set "Set A". If I say "pick numbers from the whole Set A"--it is ambiguous. Does it mean pick some numbers from Set A, or pick all the numbers of Set A? The way I worded it allows for both translations and is thus ambiguous. This too is ambiguous and can mean either depending on the context of the Quran and sometimes the context does not reveal which is the case. The Quran tells us that it is sometimes deliberately ambiguous in 37.

Ambiguity is a strength of the Quran, not a weakness--it allows support of 7th century dispositions while not contradicting ours. Maybe this is one of the reasons why Allah chose it to be revealed in Arabic, which is a rich language containing words with multiple meanings.

Now, the second part

With the above said, I want to mention a nuance in those two verses (133 and 2327)--specifically, Allah's word choice.

If you notice in both verses it says zawjayni ith'nayni

In Arabic, there are three types of nouns

Singular
Dual
Plural

(In English, there is only singular and plural)

Zawjani is a dual noun. Ith'nayni is also a dual noun.

https//imgur.com/a/GWLDCyN

So even if "Zawjani" is translated as "kinds" rather than "pairs", it is in dual form--so it means "2 kinds" which means the same thing as a "pair". Thus the verses that say "zawjayni ith'nayni" would be saying "two kinds two". It is using the number 2 twice. 2 x 2.

Some English translators have picked up on this, for example In translating 133, Yusof Ali writes "and fruit of every kind He made in pairs, two and two". Other English translators have also written "two pairs"--see Dr. Laleh Bakhtiar, T.B.Irving, Abdul Hye, Abdul Majid Daryabadi, Muhammad Mahmoud Ghali, Syed Vickar Ahamed, Farook Malik, Dr. Kamal Omar, Maududi, Ali Bakhtiari Nejad, A.L. Bilal Muhammad, Sayyed Abbas Sadr-Ameli, Mir Aneesuddin etc.

Allah could've just simply said "and fruits he made Zawjani" which would say "fruits made in pairs"--but Allah didn't say that. He added the redundant word "ith'nayni". It is clear from the science what Allah is referring to--double marriages, double mating, double fertilization IN fruit. Notice how the verse says "Fiha" which means In/inside. It is saying INSIDE the fruit there are double pairings of mates. Male and female gametes/cells are inside the fruit. It is not a contradiction at all--in fact, given the deliberate seemingly unnecessary redundancy of using "Ith'nayni" in 133, Allah is pointing to that redundancy INSIDE fruits. Literally double spouses; double fertilization.

Part of the miracle is that Allah used the word "inside" when referencing the double pairings in fruit. "inside" ("fiha" in Arabic) also seems to be an unnecessary thing to say if Allah was just saying 'fruits, he made them pairs'--rather, Allah instead put the word "inside", which directs our attention to something happening inside fruits, rather than fruits having genders. The specificity of Allah's use of language in this verse is very telling.

As a side note, notice how the Quran does not rule out the existence of a multiplicity of double fertilization in fruits (eg. Fruits can have multiple seeds--each seed is doubly fertilized)--it just said inside fruits, there are double matings. It didn't say how many double matings are occurring, as thus, it does not explicitly rule them out. It's kind of like saying "In plants, there is X"<---When I say this, I am not ruling out that plants also have Y--I just said they have X in them that is a true statement.

Now, regarding 2327, I think we should consider Allah's word choice--he is saying "2 pairs"--as in two sets of a mating pair (as in 4 animals). Likewise, If I tell you to give me 2 pairs of socks, I am asking for 4 socks.

Interestingly, in the bible, it says "seven pairs" rather than "two pairs" in Genesis 73. If you look at a mechanical word for word translation https//www.mechanical-translation.org/mtt/G7.html it says

"From all of the clean beasts you will take for you seven seven males and females"--so 7 pairs of males and females.

https//www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/8170/jewish/Chapter-7.htm The Jews translate it as "Of all the clean animals you shall take for yourself seven pairs, a male and its mate".

So this could be a corruption in the bible. But note that the common understanding that they only took ONE male and female only of each animal is not correct in either the Bible nor the Quran.

As a side note, the Quran does not conclusively lay out whether the flood was a local or global event, nor does it say if they took animals from all the Earth or just from all the animals that they use for subsistence (like the grazing animals--Quran just said take 2 pairs each and thus could be referring to what was around or proximal to Noah's settlement--it didn't say take 2 pairs of each living being on the planet) and thus this ambiguity allows for either understanding.

tutti_frutti

salam mclinkin94

i understand from the Quran that the flood was global

surah 71 verse 26

“and noah said my Lord, do not leave on the earth from among the rejecters an inhabitant."

so from my understanding the flood was global (i may be wrong so please verify for yourself)

peace

ade_cool

I am really sorry, I have been reading this post and I got so sad that people are making a problem about 133. I just have to discuss this here. Please forgive me for bringing back an old topic, but I NEED to address it because this thread had no closure!!

Salam mclinkin94,

There is nothing wrong about replying an old thread especially in this case you bring insights to others.

Like you said in "introduce yourself" section, "Don't leave any thoughts that support Islam unsaid!" sun

Actually, it is not a contradiction, and in fact, it is a major miracle--if you understand the science behind plant development.

Let's start with

Exalted is He who created (in) pairs all things.

This is an example of the inferiority of the English translation compared to the original Arabic. This verse does not say "in" pairs all things. Rather, if you look at a word for word translation, it says "the pairs", not "in pairs". That is, Allah created "all the pairs" of the Earth. i.e He created all the existing pairs, so what.

kol=all

In arabic you can say "kol alazwaj or "alazwaj kollaha" interchangeably.

And of all things We created two pairs...

In Arabic, (مِنْْ) “min“ could mean "some of"

Definitions from, some, some of .

Some of, of. Indicating a segment of; a portion of. In other words, "Some of all things we created pairs" in essence "a part of all things are made into pairs".

and from all of the fruits He made therein two mates

Same thing as above. A part of all the fruits have in them pairs. In other words of all the fruits, there are pairs within them (fi-ha). This could be referring to some of the fruits with seeds which are diploid (have two sets/pairs of chromosomes, from the male and female components of the plant)

Believe it or not, this verse is a significant MIRACLE. It is something, the prophet Muhammad could not have known! Let me explain. This verse uses the terminology "zawjayni ith'nayni"--which is weird terminology. Zawjayni means "two"/"pair" and Ith'nayin also means "two". That means 4 in total! (2 pairs)! What???! That doesn't make any sense?!! Actually it does

Double fertilization "The launch of seed development in flowering plants (angiosperms) is initiated by the process of double fertilization two male gametes (sperm cells) fuse with two female gametes (egg and central cell) to form the precursor cells of the two major seed components, the embryo and endosperm, respectively." From https//doi.org/10.3389/fpls.2014.00452

This is a peer reviewed scientific article, so cut the BS from those atheist/anti-Muslim websites that claim this Quranic verse is a contradiction because plants only have 1 sperm and 1 egg and that no plants have 2 pairs of sperm and eggs. WRONG THEY ARE!! Double fertilization happens in some fruits (not single fertilization, DOUBLE fertilization). I cannot believe the stupidity and ignorance of anti-muslim apologists and the BS they spew on their websites and forums!

Now, did 7th century Arabs have a concept of double fertilization? How did Muhammad (pbuh) know??

It seems to be that Allah is appealing to 7th century Arabs' astonishment with duality/dualism of the world and is saying "you see that thing that you are astonished by?--Allah created it". Allah said this in such a way to appeal to 7th century Arabs' dispositions while not making it a contradiction for future generations. Allah may have wanted to make it sound like to the 7th century Arabs that he was talking about duality in the world (Quran must support 7th century belief by relating to their dispositions) AND the objective nature of reality that will be discovered through science). If Allah said "and everything that exists in the heaven and the Earth are made in pairs", that would be a clear scientific error, but notice how the Quran was careful to avoid this. It is only human interpretation that messes things up; It is only the English translators that mess things up.

Thanks for the insights!

Wassalam,
Ade

LMC

salam mclinkin94

i understand from the Quran that the flood was global

surah 71 verse 26

“and noah said my Lord, do not leave on the earth from among the rejecters an inhabitant."

so from my understanding the flood was global (i may be wrong so please verify for yourself)

peace

Salam, tutti_frutti

The issue is the translation.

"ard" which they translated as "Earth" can also mean "Land". We know that Noah existed long before Abraham and long before the Jews. He may have existed shortly after Adam before humans really dispersed around the Earth.

I'm not saying the Quran definitively said the flood was local--I'm saying the Quran did not specify whether it was local or global and thus either could be the case.

jkhan

Yes, I will address this in two parts. First, this reflects the complexity and multiple meanings of the Arabic language and the Quran.

'Zawj' can mean "pairs" or "kinds" or "sorts". It is not clear which one is the case--it can mean either thing depending on the context of the Quran, and sometimes the context of the Quran doesn't give us the answer and remains ambiguous.

'Min kol' can mean "a part of every/each" or "a part from/of the set of all" (ie. a part from ). In other words, it can mean a 'portion of each thing', or it can mean a 'portion of/from the set of all things' (ie. a portion of/from ) For example, imagine the number set --we will call this set "Set A". If I say "pick numbers from the whole Set A"--it is ambiguous. Does it mean pick some numbers from Set A, or pick all the numbers of Set A? The way I worded it allows for both translations and is thus ambiguous. This too is ambiguous and can mean either depending on the context of the Quran and sometimes the context does not reveal which is the case. The Quran tells us that it is sometimes deliberately ambiguous in 37.

Ambiguity is a strength of the Quran, not a weakness--it allows support of 7th century dispositions while not contradicting ours. Maybe this is one of the reasons why Allah chose it to be revealed in Arabic, which is a rich language containing words with multiple meanings.

Now, the second part

With the above said, I want to mention a nuance in those two verses (133 and 2327)--specifically, Allah's word choice.

If you notice in both verses it says zawjayni ith'nayni

In Arabic, there are three types of nouns

Singular
Dual
Plural

(In English, there is only singular and plural)

Zawjani is a dual noun. Ith'nayni is also a dual noun.

https//imgur.com/a/GWLDCyN

So even if "Zawjani" is translated as "kinds" rather than "pairs", it is in dual form--so it means "2 kinds" which means the same thing as a "pair". Thus the verses that say "zawjayni ith'nayni" would be saying "two kinds two". It is using the number 2 twice. 2 x 2.

Some English translators have picked up on this, for example In translating 133, Yusof Ali writes "and fruit of every kind He made in pairs, two and two". Other English translators have also written "two pairs"--see Dr. Laleh Bakhtiar, T.B.Irving, Abdul Hye, Abdul Majid Daryabadi, Muhammad Mahmoud Ghali, Syed Vickar Ahamed, Farook Malik, Dr. Kamal Omar, Maududi, Ali Bakhtiari Nejad, A.L. Bilal Muhammad, Sayyed Abbas Sadr-Ameli, Mir Aneesuddin etc.

Allah could've just simply said "and fruits he made Zawjani" which would say "fruits made in pairs"--but Allah didn't say that. He added the redundant word "ith'nayni". It is clear from the science what Allah is referring to--double marriages, double mating, double fertilization IN fruit. Notice how the verse says "Fiha" which means In/inside. It is saying INSIDE the fruit there are double pairings of mates. Male and female gametes/cells are inside the fruit. It is not a contradiction at all--in fact, given the deliberate seemingly unnecessary redundancy of using "Ith'nayni" in 133, Allah is pointing to that redundancy INSIDE fruits. Literally double spouses; double fertilization.

Part of the miracle is that Allah used the word "inside" when referencing the double pairings in fruit. "inside" ("fiha" in Arabic) also seems to be an unnecessary thing to say if Allah was just saying 'fruits, he made them pairs'--rather, Allah instead put the word "inside", which directs our attention to something happening inside it, rather than fruits having genders. The specificity of Allah's use of language in this verse is very telling.

As a side note, notice how the Quran does not rule out the existence of a multiplicity of double fertilization in fruits (eg. Fruits can have multiple seeds--each seed is doubly fertilized)--it just said inside fruits, there are double matings. It didn't say how many double matings are occurring, as thus, it does not explicitly rule them out. It's kind of like saying "In plants, there is X"<---When I say this, I am not ruling out that plants also have Y--I just said they have X in them that is a true statement.

Now, regarding 2327, I think we should consider Allah's word choice--he is saying "2 pairs"--as in two sets of a mating pair (as in 4 animals). Likewise, If I tell you to give me 2 pairs of socks, I am asking for 4 socks.

Interestingly, in the bible, it says "seven pairs" rather than "two pairs" in Genesis 73. If you look at a mechanical word for word translation https//www.mechanical-translation.org/mtt/G7.html it says

"From all of the clean beasts you will take for you seven seven males and females"--so 7 pairs of males and females.

https//www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/8170/jewish/Chapter-7.htm The Jews translate it as "Of all the clean animals you shall take for yourself seven pairs, a male and its mate".

So this could be a corruption in the bible. But note that the common understanding that they only took ONE male and female only of each animal is not correct in either the Bible nor the Quran.

As a side note, the Quran does not conclusively lay out whether the flood was a local or global event, nor does it say if they took animals from all the Earth or just from all the animals that they use for subsistence (like the grazing animals--Quran just said take 2 pairs each and thus could be referring to what was around or proximal to Noah's settlement--it didn't say take 2 pairs of each living being on the planet) and thus this ambiguity allows for either understanding.

Peace brother..

I wish you stay in this forum actively In sha Allah.. I sense your knowledge and guidance within book and most of all, the way of clarification to a question by not deviating from the point of question..

God bless you..

By the way my undying Zawjain is gender (both male and female only)
5345 "And that He creates the genders (Zawjain) - the male and female"

Zawj is just kind or pair or any gender regardless

Izthnain is just two numbers and nothing else regardless of gender..

In my case.. Ja'ala(made) and khalaqa (creates) should be noted carefully to understand certain relevant verses..

In the case of 'min kullu' to be called 'part of' as well, you need to give a big support from Quran whether it has meant anywhere and if so reason it why taken as 'part of' leaving 'all of'

I agree 2327 quantity is 04 ..

tutti_frutti

salam mclinkin94

i agree with you that there could be a possibility that the people of noah pbuh were the only people that existed at that time, when mankind was one community

i think the people of noah pbuh were what we call neanderthals (as per below verse)

surah 7 verse 69 (i understand it is hud pbuh talking to the people he was sent to in the verse)

"are you surprised that a reminder has come to you from your Lord through a man from among you to warn you? ans remember that He made you successors after the people of noah, and He increased you in CREATION vastly. so remember the grace of God, that you may succeed."

scientist also say that some neanderthal genes are in all humans (here is an article https//www.cnn.com/2020/01/30/africa/africa-neanderthal-dna-scn/index.html ) and i think they say it is because humans mated with neanderthals (as they have no other explanation s )

i think if we all have some of such genes it is rather because all humans are descendants of the people of noah pbuh a.k.a. neanderthals

i also think that the first ship ever built was the ship of noah pbuh that The Lord created for noah pbuh and subsequently taught humans how to build ships

so my opinion, big possibility that people of noah pbuh were the only community of humans and that the flood was global

i might be wrong so please again verify for yourself

peace

LMC

Like you said in "introduce yourself" section, "Don't leave any thoughts that support Islam unsaid!"

I wish you stay in this forum actively In sha Allah.. I sense your knowledge and guidance within book and most of all, the way of clarification to a question by not deviating from the point of question..

Thank you!

By the way my undying Zawjain is gender (both male and female only)
5345 "And that He creates the genders (Zawjain) - the male and female"

Zawj is just kind or pair or any gender regardless

Izthnain is just two numbers and nothing else regardless of gender..

In my case.. Ja'ala(made) and khalaqa (creates) should be noted carefully to understand certain relevant verses..

I don't think it is necessary. Zawjain can be the dual form of Zawj and it can be any pair. But, if what you say is true, then it strengthens the case of the miracle I mentioned.

Zawjain is still dual form, so it would be dual form of the sexes (as in, both sexes). So now the Quranic verse 133 is saying "two sexes, two"--which is referring to the 2 sexual pairings that happen in double fertilization. If what you say is necessarily true, then that's even better!

In the case of 'min kullu' to be called 'part of' as well, you need to give a big support from Quran whether it has meant anywhere and if so reason it why taken as 'part of' leaving 'all of'

'min kullu' is technically translated as 'from/of/part-of all'. As such, when understanding that technical morphology, we recognize that it could mean 'part of the whole of' or 'a piece from every'. It can mean one or the other--and what it means can vary between different verses as they can use that same phrase to mean different things.

But then, why use "from ALL" and not just "from them". Because it carries a greater rhetorical effect and signifies massive multitudes. "from ALL" has a greater rhetorical effect and better signifies the magnitude than "from them", yet at the same time, it does not necessarily mean "a part from every single thing", but it can also mean "a part of/from " (just I described with the number set example in my previous post).

I agree that it would be great to have direct support from the Quran, but I don't think it is necessary. If a phrase could mean something else, then it could mean something else--even if nothing else in the Quran helps us identify which is the case.

The Quran's ambiguity is a strength of the Quran, not a weakness. It allows for flexibility in translation and by using this Allah can support 7th century dispositions while still being vague enough not to contradict ours.

That being said, I still want to give examples of verses where "min kullu" does not always mean 'a part from every single thing' and rather it can mean 'a part from ' (just as I described in the number set example in my previous post). These verses are not required to understand that "min kullu" can mean different things, but since you asked

Indeed, we established him on the Earth and gave him "min kulli" thing a means.

This verse doesn't mean that Dhul Qarnayn was omnipotent or that Allah allowed him to do absolutely anything. Could Dhul Qarnayn become prophet Muhammad? Could Dhul Qarnayn ask Allah to forgive mushrikeen of Shirk (something Allah will never do)? Did Allah give Dhul Qarnayn the power to disobey him without any punishment at all? Rather it means Allah gave him capabilities from a big part of .

And We have certainly presented for the people in this Qur'an from every ("min kulli&quot example - that they might remember.

Does this verse mean that the Qur'an has all the examples Allah can provide? Or does it mean that Allah gave us many examples (pieces) of/from ? There are many examples within Allah's infinite knowledge and wisdom that he could've given us, yet the examples in the Quran are many, but finite. Allah demands that we ponder/reflect over the Quran--so we must arrive at this conclusion.

Either way, even if the Quran provided us with no help regarding this, it doesn't change the fact that "min kulli" could mean either "a part from every thing" or "a part from ".

LMC