Fetish for Sacrifice and Pain
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Salaam huruf,
I think you missed the dimension of Jafar's question. He speaks of (strange) rituals such as the sacrifice of humans or self-harm such as cutting the knife in the body so that blood flows, and even torture of oneself to pacify the god.
Salaam
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Humans fear is one reason, its from the principle belief that if we get one thing we loose another, and the same way if we loose one thing we get another, kind of give and take.
Sacrifice is a such a form that one voluntarily does the sacrifice to prevent loses in future, ultimately the fear of loosing everything comes to one's mind and as a precaution one takes a lesser safer route of sacrifice. In some cases it exceeds logic in the form of human sacrifice.
A crude way to balance. -
Thanks guys for putting in your thought..
I'm not limiting the question to any context.. this is a free context question..
In case you're wondering.. no this had nothing to do with "50 shades of gray" either LOL
Yet feel free to put in your thought from BDSM context too..
As it also fell into "Human fetish for sacrifice and pain"..The most famous/revered/worshiped men in the history of the western hemisphere also relate to "Sacrifice and Pain". While nobody remembered those who (for example) invented agriculture or cattle farming.. although the impact of agriculture and farming is much more beneficial to the welfare and progress of humankind than those who merely sacrifice his own son or sacrifice his own life (with tremendous pain) on the cross.
So please... put in your thought.. on any angle regarding "Human fetish for sacrifice and pain".
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Aztecs, who are well known for human sacrifice, did it in principle as an act of acknowledgement of their devotion to divinity to whose Mercy everything that exists owes its existence. Human beings, as conscious of their dignity as created by God out of Its mercy, if they were true men, the first thing in their lives was this consciene of being a gift of divinity and most intimately tied to it and understood death as also a return to divinity when they died in an act of submission and thanks to that divinity.
There are abundant religious scriptures full of the most tender expressions of love and care for human beings by the divinity and Its readiness to firgive always.
Also, the bodies of those sacrificed ritually were distributed in as many pieces as possible for the people to comune, that was the communion, and since obviosuly there never was enough for everybody they made bread and made it ritually equivalent to the body of the newly divinized by their sacrifice.
This was the principle, with time some of them used the scrificing as a political and war tool, which obviously was a bad faith corruption of the doctrine. Human sacrificng in itself was a good corruption of the fundamental doctrine of human existence as a mnifestation of Divine Mercy.
Today, nobody speaks about human sacrifice, but there are plenty of humans being sacrificed lal the time. But even without any religious outward expression they ARE INDEED SACRIFIED as if they were shit, (collaterals or bad ones or whatever). It is not because certain words are not spoken or written that the the facts change. Human sacrifice by human beings continues as best as at any time, but we have no consience of it, except for those who do plan it and indeed they are not sacrificng to Divinity, but to the Enemy of huimanking, Iblees, desperation, nothingness.
We have no reason to be proud of any achievement on that count. We are still dependant on magic words in order to justify evils. If the apropriate words are said or not said then we are justified to not take any notice of it. If certain words are used then we should be really shocked and shaken but whatever gets the ritual words of subservience to the doctrine (exlicit or unnamed) ruling at the moment.
Salaam
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Many people are sacrificing themselves in so-called suicide attacks and think their acquire eternal bliss because they did it in the name of Allah.
Salaam
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Well if the cause is just that is far more noble than to kill others while one keeps safely out of it, as do those who have been planning and are still planning and executing of the downfall of many nations and peoples. Lynching muslims under the pretext of freedom of expression is as cowardly as it gets.
As to those purported suicide attacks by muslims, I very much doubt that most of them ar such suicide, mnay times thehy are scams and the one who dies did not suicide at all but was suicided by the plotters, if ever there was such death. To whit the 11 march attack in Madrid. Suicide orgies a dime a dozen and apparently no one left who could be judged and therefore open the possibility of exposing the whole scam.
Really, I doubt that we are improving on the deceit and double-crossing of Roman Emppire record, but we must not be far from it. Which big heaps of scams all for the greater glory of the official good ones.
Salaam
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Thanks guys for putting in your thought..
I'm not limiting the question to any context.. this is a free context question..
In case you're wondering.. no this had nothing to do with "50 shades of gray" either LOL
Yet feel free to put in your thought from BDSM context too..
As it also fell into "Human fetish for sacrifice and pain"..The most famous/revered/worshiped men in the history of the western hemisphere also relate to "Sacrifice and Pain". While nobody remembered those who (for example) invented agriculture or cattle farming.. although the impact of agriculture and farming is much more beneficial to the welfare and progress of humankind than those who merely sacrifice his own son or sacrifice his own life (with tremendous pain) on the cross.
So please... put in your thought.. on any angle regarding "Human fetish for sacrifice and pain".
If one wants to change something one has to come out of the system's safer zone and act differently, face opposition from those who enjoy all the existing system's benefit and this is a kind of sacrifice.
To give away ones wealth and become monk is infact is also a form of sacrifice and has infact benefited the people in one or more ways.
To be out of family and relationship infact gives them the time to spend on other new activties and excel in fields writing books, research in medecine. There are many stories of such people who went away from family life to become famous personalities. -
Many people are sacrificing themselves in so-called suicide attacks and think their acquire eternal bliss because they did it in the name of Allah.
Interesting and quite common, Japanese Kamikaze attack (literally "Divine Wind" is another example.
"When you eliminate all thoughts about life and death, you will be able to totally disregard your earthly life. This will also enable you to concentrate your attention on eradicating the enemy with unwavering determination, meanwhile reinforcing your excellence in flight skills."
-- Kamikaze Pilot ManualAnd the 'amazing' thing about "kamikaze pilots" and "Shinto state religion" indoctrination is that the suicide bomber never being promised with "72 virgins" or "Eternal bliss"..
"It was an order - help your country, your country being the family that you loved, your brothers and sisters, friends, your home town - to protect these things from the enemy. Nobody was chasing after death or trying to commit suicide - we did it because we had a duty to protect our country, our home and our family"
-- Toyotaro Nakajima (Former "Special Forces" pilot)Their "Sacrifice" also earn special place in today's Japanese society..
Islam 'suicide bombing' dogma have many striking similarity with Norse / Viking's religion..
"The dead who fall in battle shall become Odin's adopted sons in Valhalla, a great hall where dead heroes feasted at long tables. Odin sent his warror-maidens, the Valkyries, riding through the skies to bring dead warriors to Valhalla."
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_in_Norse_paganism#AfterlifeSimilar to "Islam's heaven", Valhalla is designed for "Male".. Valhalla is an "All men's club".
Where they can enjoy everlasting sex orgy and party until it's time to fight the "Last Great Battle" (Ragnarok)"The Valkyries are sadistic and terrifying, but were the seductress to fallen warriors. Each morning, after a night of rampant sex they would be reborn as virgins, wearing white robes and combing out their long hairs. The Valkyries are the warrior priestesses of Odin."
http//s2.quickmeme.com/img/ef/eff994127030f09802b410773b5758ac3952ffb7dccb9333396610513a237285.jpg
Is Islam "Saheed" dogma a copy cat of much earlier Viking's "Einherjar"?
In Viking and Islam case.. it's an efficient and effective belief to rally men to sacrifice their life and die in battle.
Japanese case is quite unique, they're not promised with any "Heaven" to have "everlasting sex and feast", yet it also works very effective. -
If one wants to change something one has to come out of the system's safer zone and act differently, face opposition from those who enjoy all the existing system's benefit and this is a kind of sacrifice.
To give away ones wealth and become monk is infact is also a form of sacrifice and has infact benefited the people in one or more ways.
To be out of family and relationship infact gives them the time to spend on other new activties and excel in fields writing books, research in medecine. There are many stories of such people who went away from family life to become famous personalities.The above is a 'good sacrifice' and doesn't necessarily involve any "Pain" or "Death"...
Yet such "sacrifice" doesn't earned much interest by human.. compared to other type of "sacrifice".
It seems that human are more interested in "Sacrifice" which involves "Pain" and "Suffering".
The pain can be induced towards human.. or animal..Case Study
Will Jesus became famous if he was not being tortured on the cross?
His cousin John dies quickly (and relatively painless) death through beheading, and John is not as famous as Jesus. -
And strange is that Jesus gives credit to John in the texts and says he is a great prophet.
John's abstention from the world is what makes Jesus say this about him while he jokes about himself that he is a drunkard and a glutton making a comparison of jinn indulgence. This is why he says no better prophet born of women is there.
It is clear though that Jesus lauded people who abstain from the world.
Salaam
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Sacrifice by suffering or giving up certain things is very, very relative. My experience and observation is that many people who are said "sacrificed" or gave up something in fact sacrificed something which although for other people or for some people might be desirable they, in fact, did not desire it nor felt any pain at all by giving up those things. Rennouncing having a family for many people are no sacrifice at all, it would be the family which would mean for them a sacrifice.
I distrust those self-sacrificing people who make others feel like wretches because they do not do as much. I realise that they enjoy that self-sacrificing part and in fact they are doing precisely what they like, which in itself of course is quite acceptable, but it is not acceptable as soon as it becomes a merit and for others becomes a demerit not to do it.
Salaam
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Salaam huruf,
Those people who do like that have missed the point in the abstention. You can work but give everything to charity for example or do voluntary work. It does not mean you have to sit on your buttocks all day.
If you have a family you cannot forsake it.
Salaam
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The rennouncing to have a family as a merit... merit for what? I think that the fact of having family is part of life, the kind of life derived from our GOD-given nature. To attempt to be better by avoiding difficulties I don't see it as a merit or a useful thing. Families are a real trial and do make you evolve and learn. It is the best school for anybody, particularly for anybody with any spiritual aim. You become more spiritua not by giving up the world but by trascending it. If you leave it side you merely beome ignorant and as a visitor in life not as a real participant.
The monk thing is good only for those who like being monks. Being a monk without liking it is useless to all purposes. You cannot do something you dislike without it reflecting badly on what you do.
Salaam
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Salam Jafar.
Per my understanding you are mixing up two separate things ? sacrifice and fetish for pain and death.
Sacrifice is forgoing interest of self for the benefit of others.
Fetish for pain and death is causing death and pain to others to serve one?s selfish interest OR simply for perverted satisfaction.In both above statements self can be a person, a cult or a religion or nation, or a gender.
In rare occasions fetish for pain and death causes death and pain to narrower self to serve the interest of one?s broader self (e.g. suicide bombers).The surgical knife of a physician and the knife of a robber do not serve the same purpose. The gun of a terrorist and the gun of a faithful soldier does not serve the same purpose. So let?s not paint everything with the same brush.
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The ritual for practicing sacrifice in controlled settings (e.g. sacrifice of time and effort, diet, wealth, livestock etc.) that seems to be a part of every religion is intended to make the practitioners prepared for greater selfless sacrifices in life. You can compare it with the lab test of the surgeons OR the training camp for the soldiers. YES, very often the practice loose the intended purpose and becomes a mindless slaughter game, but that is a different story. I believe the question of the thread surrounds what could be the ?intended purpose? of such rituals in religions.
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Your distaste for the practice of ?animal sacrifice? is quite evident in your post. I welcome you to consider the following
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The domestic animals (e.g. cows, goats, camels, chicken) would almost certainly have been extinct species by now because they simply lack the skills to survive in the wild. It is human intervention and nurturing that not only helped them survive but also thrive in numbers and diversity. Methodical slaughter is part of the process that helped them survive.
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Just like any carnivore creature in the wild has its natural right to seek foods for its survival in the wild through pray, humans being a omnivorous creature has natural right to seek source of food from other creatures. However the ?intelligence? built into humans gives them additional responsibility to limit their pray to only those species whom they can support and sustain in a controlled fashion.
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Assuming one accepts the above two arguments, if one practices a non-vegetarian diet it is only hypocrisy of highest order for one to claim any kind of animal slaughter is inhuman etc. However, there are certain religions which recommend strict vegetarian diet and they never recommend ritual slaughter. Those who practice such ?sacrifice?, for religion or otherwise, are indeed on a higher pedestal of morality and deserve to be respected for their vows.
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However, those who practice non vegetarian diet can be recommended to practice ritual slaughter, for
a. Firsthand experience of the pain and death involved in the process of obtaining meat
b. Appreciation of our inter-species dependencies.
c. Appreciation of how pain and death for higher purpose is necessary.-
Ritually slaughtered animals are generally better treated and better cared compared to animals commercially slaughtered in slaughterhouses.
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Where the ritual allows eating the meat ? such ritual often recommends sharing the meat with those who would otherwise not be able to afford meat.
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
Arman -
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Salam Huruf,
My point is about the way monkhood came into existence, its a belief that to renounce will bring in something better. Its there in all religions.
I agree with you, There are exceptions there are many who wanted to be a monk just for showing off and infact enjoy a wealthy life, there are many such especially in India, they run business empires mostly cheating people.
But still we can hear instances of normal people who voluntarily give off a wealthy life, do service to others in multiple ways, may be you can see that as a god given opportunity to service but still its the results of their service that made them look great and revered long after their life.Can we ignore the sacrifice of a mother compared to the father or anyone in supporting her kids and their welfare.
Jafar,
Inflicting pain and suffering on other innocents?
The suicide bombers who kill innocents and even kids do they have a valid reason? can they be compared with
a soldier in the military, he too kills and inflict pain on others,
but the soldier has a valid reason/duty of defending himself and his countrymen from the enemies, in a way both looks same
but the result of their actions will make the difference.The one who kill innocents do this misguided by their idols,
Their idols will only sit idle but the universal goodness(God or Allah) will shame those kind of acts. -
Salam Arman,
I agree with you, killing animals for food is a reality and thats the only way one can live in some environments in good health, The diversity of nature has to be respected, nature teaches us on whats good and bad and it can be followed.
But i do not like the religious custom of sacrificing animals especially at the time of Hajj. its completely out of Goodness and looks excess and wasteful done in the name of pleasing God.
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Salam Arman,
I agree with you, killing animals for food is a reality and thats the only way one can live in some environments in good health, The diversity of nature has to be respected, nature teaches us on whats good and bad and it can be followed.
But i do not like the religious custom of sacrificing animals especially at the time of Hajj. its completely out of Goodness and looks excess and wasteful done in the name of pleasing God.
Salam Amin.
Do you have any data / article based on which you are concluding that the sacrificing animals especially at the time of Hajj is wasteful? I know at least part of the animals slaughtered during the hajj are shipped to different countries for distributing among the poor, but I have no idea what % is actually wasted.
Any form of wastage is against human rationality and morality and hence impious.
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
Arman -
Its based on personal experience in my place and happens even in my house yearly.
Sacrifice is to share our excess with the needy and also our relatives and i definitely find Hajj practice of buying animals and giving sacrifice not the best act. Instead one can do in other different ways not sacrificing animals. -
Its based on personal experience in my place and happens even in my house yearly.
Sacrifice is to share our excess with the needy and also our relatives and i definitely find Hajj practice of buying animals and giving sacrifice not the best act. Instead one can do in other different ways not sacrificing animals.Salam Amin.
So, you are talking about the sacrifice ritual done at home during "Eid-ul-Adha" by traditional Muslims, not the sacrifice at Mecca?
Well, while I agree with you that just like virtually every other ritual the animal sacrifice rite has often lost its true essence - I am not yet convinced that by definition this is a wasteful practice.
Based on my personal experience I have seen - when the practice is conducted with proper intensions - it does provide the poor people access to meat which they would not otherwise get. I have also seen from personal experience that the animals which are ritually slaughtered are indeed better cared and well treated compared to commercially slaughtered animals.
It is not only the poor who recieve the charity, the professionals involved in the field of slaughtering and livestock raising and trading get a much needed financial boost during the ritual season. The movement of fund is generally in the direction of more solvent to less solvent and hence a beneficial boost to the society.
If someone turns the practice into a wasteful excercise, the blame should be upon the waster - not on the ritual. If the wastage is happening at your home yearly, you can actually step-up and stop the westage and compel your family to share more with the poor - without necessarily challanging the ritual. Hope you did your part, before criticising the ritual.
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
Arman