Fetish for Sacrifice and Pain
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Dreams are dreams and are interpreteed since a long long time ago, it was no novelty either for Ibrahim or for the contemporaries of the Qur'an's revelation. Dreams are not taken, either in the past or now, as meaning physically what they depict. Dreams are symbolical, not actual events. All of us would be hard put to make dreams into reality. The very idea that it should be taken literally is so impossible and absurd... If you sink to the bottom of a pit in a dream, do you even think of it having a "litteral" meaning? And people have known that always and therefore, when a dream seemed to them to have a meaning, they tried to interpret it or have somebody interppret it, preferably somebody knowledgeble in that field.
And again, there is no mention in the whole of Qur'an of such a thing as a human sacrifice. But on the other hand there is in Qur'an the interpretation of dreams or visions, like Yusuf's. Nobody comes up with the silly idea that they are "litteral" cows, thin or fat. Not Yusuf, not even people of far mental or spiritual level than Yusuf.
?What is the use of the Qur'an explaining, by Ibrahim's saying, that he sees that in his dreams if then we are to interpret out thin air that what they are talking is about butchering a human being?
And on top of that, in the face of something that if it were true would be of an enormous brutality for any person, prophets included, Ibrahim and Isma3il seem to be wholly unaffected. They strut happily along as if they were on a picnic. Which might have been, because the scene is quite peaceful, far from dramatic, moving in its simplicity and loving expresions between father and son, with the use of diminutives and all that marks the intimacy between them, and the humility of the father, consulting with his young son something that may have been occupying him a long time, but ?what a modellic behaviour by this old man! he keeps it to himself till he can exchange on it with his son when he is mature enough. No planning ahead for him, not binding him to his own visions, but humbly and affectionately consulting. He is indeed a beautiful example of a gentleman and prophet.
Bible mindset seems to have at times a really murderous influence on common sense.
No human sacrifice is mentioned in the Qur'an. None never, except in a dream, this dream.
But, for the failures of the Qur'an (astaghfirullah), we have the Bible setting things right and putting the butchering of a person in offering to God where it should be, as the indisputable merit a prophet of God at the end of his life. A long life of service to truth and humanity without compromise or concession to the fancies of spoilt humans. Again it seems that common sense is the least common of senses and very hard to swallow. It is understandable, butchering somebody, particularly a loved one, is by far more inspiring, for God's sake.
Salaam
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Another revealing word
Isma3il says you will see that I am of the patient ones.
Patience is not precisely the quality that would be called for for a butchering may be courage, strength...
But patience is something that has more to do with withstanding for a length of time, rather long length of time. For patience to be right in the context what Isma3il envisages has to be something that will entail sacrifice from him for a length of time. Something he must put up with for the foreseeable future. Not something that is going to be done to him, once, but somethingwith which he must contend on the long term.
Salaam
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Salaam huruf,
Yes. It could be about the establishment of the covenant and Ishmael's devotion to be a prophet and that he later had to travel and be the leader in a distant land. This is a sacrifice for Abraham because his son will be gone.
Abraham could have traveled away there with Ishmael and from there he sacrificed Ishmael to separate from him to make a community there.
No matter what it was there was no life at stake. That would have been unrighteous and against the decree. GOD would not contradict the own decree.
Whenever I have the time I am going to study these passages and see what they really say 100%, if GOD permits.
Salaam
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I think the whole passage, like so many of the Qur'an stories may be the source of many refletions and lessons. Like poetry, each person may find in it what it needs to know her or himself. Therein lies a magnificent aspecto of these stories, that they are suggestive but not constricting, making them very fruitful.
What I fin most moving in this story is the affectionate tone, the simplicity, the sincere feeling in it, giving relief, not just to the prophet and his son but to all humans, because what it says is that any sacrifice we do in the best intention, with pure heart, its source and its aim is in the love of God, the greatest reward and the greatest satisfaction. Particularly regarding offspring, we tend to have expectations and aims which are beyond our power and we do not bear in mind that children are nto ours, but God's, that we have no right nor reason to expect them to turn out to0 our pleasure or satisfaction. We should respect their destiny and God's property of them as well as of everything else.
Salaam
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Peace Arman .
What you say here
If your understanding of God is that he is a deity of goodness who seats helplessly when evil triumphs (even momentarily) ? your idea of God is fundamentally different from my idea of God. The God I worship is the Master of the Universe, He is in absolute control of everything that is happening in the universe ? from atoms to galaxies - seen and unseen - good or evil ? through which He continually tests which of His creations are best in action. It is His show all the way.
This has nothing to do with the point I was making. Regardless of what we understand what or who GOD is, there is no contradiction/ should be no contradiction in GOD s words.
GOD does not test anyone by asking them to "sacrifice" a human,because one of HIS main commandments is"DO NOT KILL" for no valid reason!!!!!!
That is the point I was making.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
GOD does not test anyone by asking them to "sacrifice" a human,because one of HIS main commandments is"DO NOT KILL" for no valid reason!!!!!!
That is the point I was making.
GOD bless you.
Peace.Peace Good Logic.
I never said God asked Abraham to slaughter a human.
Here is what I said
I am not sure the animal slaughter rite prescribed in Qur'an (2236) is actually linked to the incident of Abraham. I read and understand the Abraham incident (37102-104) quite differently from how it is traditionally interpreted. Per my understanding God tested Abraham with a dream to see if he acts against his God-gifted morality in order to show-off his piety. Abraham passed this test when he turned his son's face upside down (signifying a decision not to perform the slaughter.) From there on his decendents are required to practice sacrifice of their urge to show-off devotion which often supercedes their God gifted morality.
I am still convinced God did test Abraham like He is testing all of us all the time.
As long as you refrain from misrepresenting what I am saying, you are welcome to follow your own undersatnding and insight.
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
Arman -
Peace Arman.
Sorry brother.
O K then, Qoran does not say" God tested Abraham with a dream". You are implying that.
Qoran says" Abraham saw in a dream" Two different things.
GOD bless you brother.
Peace. -
Peace Arman.
Sorry brother.
O K then, Qoran does not say" God tested Abraham with a dream". You are implying that.
Qoran says" Abraham saw in a dream" Two different things.
GOD bless you brother.
Peace.Peace Good Logic.
Quran says, "Abraham saw in a dream".. and subsequently after Abraham and his som submitted to God's will pertaining to the dream Qur'an confirms they completed the vision and adds "it was a clear trial."
Yes, from the above sequence of events it was my conclusion that God tested Abraham with the dream. Feel free to accept or reject that conclusion. I understand where your shoe is pinching, I'm glad God saved me from wearing that shoe
For you is your understanding and for me is mine.
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards
Arman -
Peace Arman.
Look brother, do you agree that there is no contradiction with GOD s words?
Now ,this has nothing to do with my shoe,your shoe or anyone s shoe. I feel you are dancing around the problem.
"INNA ALLAHA LA YAAMURU BILFAHSHAA" . Period!
If you are saying" GOD tested Abraham with the dream", you are saying there is a contradiction in Qoran.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Salam Good Logic.
I offer you to consider the below verse instead
And when We saved your forefathers from the people of Pharaoh, who afflicted you with the worst torment, slaughtering your sons and keeping your females alive. And in that was a great trial from your Lord.
(Translation by Sahih International, emphasis added.)
Did God order Pharaoh to inflict suffering on the Children of Israel? Was it still not a trial from Him? Where is the contradiction?
If you still do not understand, I'll stop it here. May Allah give us the understanding to pursue His signs.
Regards,
Arman -
Peace Arman.
In the "Aya" you quoted ,is GOD testing/commanding... Pharoah to slaughter the children of Israel? Of course not.
Pharoah himself is choosing to do the evil. " GOD does not " Yamuru Bilfahshaaa"?
GOD is saying this life is a test to Beni Israeel!!! Life is a test for all Humans." We all be tested through our wealth/children...."
A completely different aspect. We choose to do GOOD/EVIL. That is the test.
GOD in all His scriptures is only asking/commanding us to do GOOD! You will never find GOD asking /commanding us to do Evil, except in the cause of justice.
We need to reflect, before we say anything about GOD? In case we end up saying ,about HIM,things that are not true.
But of course we can always repent and correct ,if we are not deliberate.
GOD bless you.
Peace.