Your opinions About Umrah
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Salam seekingthetruth.
Your original point was whether we believe one can get spiritual ?incentive? from visiting to a religious site (specifically Kabaa). To that point my answer, in a nutshell was, YES, it is possible that if one has faith in Kabaa as a symbol (Arabic Sha?aeer) of Allah, one can get primed to a mindset devoted to Allah by visiting Kabaa and it could help one to reflect upon one?s purpose and goal of life with devotion and seriousness.
Given we both agree on the above, you have raised a couple of different points in your reply, namely
- If someone (e.g. ISIS) accepts killing in the name of Allah to be a sacred act, should it be acceptable.
- Is the pilgrimage a financial burden on individual.
- Is the pilgrimage a financial burden on a nation.
Let me briefly touch on each of these points
If someone accepts killing in the name of Allah to be a sacred act, should it be acceptable.
The first and foremost teaching of Islam ? the fundamental is ? we must reject all artificial deities and have faith in the One who is the Master (Creator and Sustainer) of the entire universe. Having ?Faith? in the Master of the entire universe implies accepting the right of all creations in the universe to be dealt with ?fairly?. Having ?Faith? in the Master of the entire universe implies upholding our God-gifted intellect and conscience. Having ?Faith? in the Master of the entire universe implies being grateful for the gift of life and accepting our responsibility to facilitate all creations in the best way possible as our inviolable obligation. Having ?Faith? in the Master of the entire universe implies being patient in the life of this world and remain convinced that God is the ultimate authority to ensure justice to the universe ? in this life or hereafter.
Now, whoever deviates from having faith in the Master of the entire universe and starts to worship an artifical deity projected out of a book / religion / clan / race and strives to get worldly gain (set up a state, khilafat, kingdom etc.) by following the leaders of the book / religion / clan / race as partner to God and thereby violate their God-gifted intellect and conscience ? have indeed deviated into a wide deviation. Their ritual, their devotion, their striving (jihad) is NOT in the path of God, but in the path of devil. It is not for God to forgive them, nor to guide them to a trail ? except the trail to hell, they be in it forever.
Is the pilgrimage a financial burden on individual.
The act of pilgrimage has always been recommended for those who are able. For those who are able, we do not question if going for higher education is financially burdensome or even going for a holiday abroad is financially burdensome ? but if someone tries to visit a place for spiritual solace and enrichment, immediately we start to become concerned about the financial burden?
HOWEVER, if anyone is exploiting the pilgrims to unduly extract extra money, it is a different issue altogether. That must be considered as sinful like any form of exploitation.
Is the pilgrimage a financial burden on a nation.
Arguably due to the pilgrimage the people at the site of the pilgrimage get some financial benefit. But to what extent? Let?s take a look at the information here
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Tourism_rankings
Note
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Saudi Arabia (KSA) is not among the top 10 countries by number of annual tourist visit. France has #1 position with 84.7million visitors, while Thailand has # 10 position with 26.5 million visitors. Compared to these destinations KSA has 13.2 million annual visitor. Also note, very few of the top 10 tourist destination countries actually have any significant religious site (perhaps Italy being the exception).
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No ?Muslim? country is in the list of ?International tourism expenditure in 2013?. So, it seems a bit farfetched that ?Muslim? countries are spending too much money in Hajj and Umrah compared to what other countries are spending on various forms of tourism.
Given this data, do you still feel that ?religious tourism? in comparison to any other form of tourism is more of a money ?spender? in the global context? Most importantly there is no economic evidence that ?overseas tourism? harms the economy of a country; rather most economists would argue that international travel and tourism facilitates and boosts economic activity in general.
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
ArmanSalam Arman,
Yes, i talked about my personal experience because at that time, i did not have any other purpose for it except spirituality, then i asked about your opinions in general about Umrah because i became suspecious about it.
Thank you for your input and these data. KSA with its current situation, has no other way to attract this number of tourists. For other islamic countries, talking about my own country, it is one way of tens ways to exploit people under under a religious cover. Why would people should accept being fooled by religious ritual even if the economic cost not a big deal "as you've said"? If these rituals are similar with other religions, they might be man made. I think people deserve to know the truth and not being exploited. Even if it is only a penny.
Regards,
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Thanks Seekingthe truth.
I share your concerns. Hope you didn't miss my below comment in my last post
"HOWEVER, if anyone is exploiting the pilgrims to unduly extract extra money, it is a different issue altogether. That must be considered as sinful like any form of exploitation."
Regards,
Arman -
Why would people should accept being fooled by religious ritual even if the economic cost not a big deal "as you've said"? If these rituals are similar with other religions, they might be man made. I think people deserve to know the truth and not being exploited. Even if it is only a penny.
Religion are man made and the ritual is of course man made.
You're right about "people deserve to know the truth" as exploitation through mass manipulation is a crime.If after they're being told about the truth and they are willingly and happily like to be manipulated then it's their choice.
People flocked to "Organized Religion / Cult's Headquarter" in the past up until today with some (miraculous) hope, such as city of Rome, Constantinople / Istanbul, Jerusalem, Mount Girzim, Mount Olympus, Delphi and Mecca. Each have their own myth and legends associated to it.
- Saudi Arabia (KSA) is not among the top 10 countries by number of annual tourist visit. France has #1 position with 84.7million visitors, while Thailand has # 10 position with 26.5 million visitors. Compared to these destinations KSA has 13.2 million annual visitor. Also note, very few of the top 10 tourist destination countries actually have any significant religious site (perhaps Italy being the exception).
I add, Turkey (Hagia Sophia), Thailand (Wat Arun)
Given this data, do you still feel that ?religious tourism? in comparison to any other form of tourism is more of a money ?spender? in the global context? Most importantly there is no economic evidence that ?overseas tourism? harms the economy of a country; rather most economists would argue that international travel and tourism facilitates and boosts economic activity in general.
There is nothing wrong with Tourism...
Yet it's the 'manipulation' that's wrong.
It's similar with a belief of "Going to Las Vegas or Macau with high expectation to become Rich".
Well actually for some people "gambling in Macau" has become part of their tradition / religion.They need to be exposed to the fact that "Most people that gamble in Macau or Las Vegas is not becoming more rich or having better life, in fact it's the Casino's owner who shall become far richer and benefited the most from such tradition".
Salam
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There is nothing wrong with Tourism...
Yet it's the 'manipulation' that's wrong.
It's similar with a belief of "Going to Las Vegas or Macau with high expectation to become Rich".
Well actually for some people "gambling in Macau" has become part of their tradition / religion.They need to be exposed to the fact that "Most people that gamble in Macau or Las Vegas is not becoming more rich or having better life, in fact it's the Casino's owner who shall become far richer and benefited the most from such tradition".
Most people do not go to religious sites to make money. Most people go to religious sites for spiritual enrichment. So the comparison with Casino is inappropriate.
A more appropriate comparison would be as follows
It's similar with a belief of "Going to Paris or Venice with hope of finding Romance".
Well actually for some people "visiting Paris/Venice at least once in lifetime" has become part of their tradition / religion.They need to be exposed to the fact that "There is nothing inherently ?romantic? about Paris or Venice - it is all in their minds, in fact it's the hotel owners and tourism industry owner who shall become richer and benefited the most from financial point of view from such tradition".
Similarly,
Pilgrims need to be exposed to the fact that "There is nothing inherently ?spiritual? about Mecca or Vatican - it is all in their minds, in fact it's the hotel owners and ?religious authority? who shall become richer and benefited the most from financial point of view from such tradition".
Then if people still choose to go to Paris or Mecca, then that is their choice.
Perhaps they value "percieved" romance / spirituality more than the money spent and hence the visit still makes sense to them.Regards,
Arman -
Thanks Seekingthe truth.
I share your concerns. Hope you didn't miss my below comment in my last post
"HOWEVER, if anyone is exploiting the pilgrims to unduly extract extra money, it is a different issue altogether. That must be considered as sinful like any form of exploitation."
Regards,
ArmanHello,
Indeed, i agree with you on that any one has the right to practice any rituals. In fact, all of us have some rituals "not necessarily religious rituals". peace
My main concern is in assuming their holiness and forcing others to accept their opinions and blindly follow them, and for sure the consequential exploitation. Exploitation in these cases is nastier than any thing else.
Regards,
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Religion are man made and the ritual is of course man made.
You're right about "people deserve to know the truth" as exploitation through mass manipulation is a crime.If after they're being told about the truth and they are willingly and happily like to be manipulated then it's their choice.
People flocked to "Organized Religion / Cult's Headquarter" in the past up until today with some (miraculous) hope, such as city of Rome, Constantinople / Istanbul, Jerusalem, Mount Girzim, Mount Olympus, Delphi and Mecca. Each have their own myth and legends associated to it.
Hello,
I totally agree with you, except the part of if religions are totally or partially man made, i am still confused about it and i am searching for the most convincing to me.
Salam,
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Most people do not go to religious sites to make money. Most people go to religious sites for spiritual enrichment. So the comparison with Casino is inappropriate.
A more appropriate comparison would be as follows
It's similar with a belief of "Going to Paris or Venice with hope of finding Romance".
Well actually for some people "visiting Paris/Venice at least once in lifetime" has become part of their tradition / religion."He deals the cards as a meditation
He doesn't play for the money he wins
He deals the cards to find the answer
The sacred geometry of chance
The hidden law of a probable outcome"
-- Loosely quoted from Sting's Shape Of My HeartIn some tradition / culture "Making Money through chances" is part of "Spiritual Enrichment".. while for others; "Jogging around a black cube" is a "Spiritual Enrichment" thus it depends on one perspective...
I'm not making this up, within some Southern China province's society, "Making money through gambling" is part of a 'test' to reach 'adulthood'. Gambling is a process to learn about "Taking Chances and Risk, which are viewed as part of a 'necessary process' to reach adulthood.
What's wrong with such tradition / religion? Well nothing..
Except..
When the society impose a punishment to those who DO NOT BELIEVE in such tradition / religion.
And he/she decided to speak up and expose how "silly" the tradition / belief on "Gambling to reach adulthood" is..The "Wrong" is increasing when the "Casino's Owner in Macau" starting to be involved in shaping, entrenching and spread it in organized manner. They wrote a book which MUST be considered as "Holy" and "Unquestionable" and within; one can find that "The Chinese Sky God is condemning those to hell for all eternity to those who do not gamble in Macau at least once in their lifetime".
Pilgrims need to be exposed to the fact that "There is nothing inherently ?spiritual? about Mecca or Vatican - it is all in their minds, in fact it's the hotel owners and ?religious authority? who shall become richer and benefited the most from financial point of view from such tradition".
Fully agree...
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"He deals the cards as a meditation
He doesn't play for the money he wins
He deals the cards to find the answer
The sacred geometry of chance
The hidden law of a probable outcome"
-- Loosely quoted from Sting's Shape Of My HeartIn some tradition / culture "Making Money through chances" is part of "Spiritual Enrichment".. while for others; "Jogging around a black cube" is a "Spiritual Enrichment" thus it depends on one perspective...
Salam Jafar.
You are still mixing up two things. If someone is going to a casino for the "joy" of gambling fully aware that financially it will be "most likely" a loosing affair - his situation is comparable to one going to Paris for Romance and/or one going to a religious site for spiritual well being.
However, if someone is wishfully thinking there would be "financial gain" from a visit to a casino (which is quite often the case) that is a strightforward misconception leading to financial exploitation. This aspect of gambling is not present in case of a pilgrimage/tourism. Very few people (if any) actually hope that pilgrimage will be "financially" beneficial for them.
Secondly, the "excitement" of gambling often becomes additctive. There is scientific evidence of it (ref http//www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-the-brain-gets-addicted-to-gambling/). I have not ever heard that the "spiritual excitement" of pilgrimage has become addictive for anyone. This, too, is a big contrast between the two.
Best regards,
Arman -
Salam MOF, Arman and all,
Can someone explain this verse that talks about pilgrimage.
Quran 9/19
Have you made the providing of water for the pilgrim and the maintenance of al-Masjid al-Haram equal to one who believes in Allah and the Last Day and strives in the cause of Allah ? They are not equal in the sight of Allah . And Allah does not guide the wrongdoing people.What are those two actions that are not equal?
I have a different understanding about pilgrimage and masjid al haram, anyway i want your thoughts on the above verse.
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Well. The "spiritual enrichment" is because they believe in it. Their bodily instinctive "reward system" triggers a sensation of contentment, because they feel they have achieved something beneficial for their well-being (in the case of the "Black Cube" it is that they have pleased their god projection and thus secured their grace from this god). It is entirely a primitive drive and worked the same with older Pagan ideology.
The grandiosity of the fleshly architecture of so-called "Holy Sites" bias the mind to induce a deceptive sense of contentment. It is actually the jinn playing tricks on on the soul. The mind is usually too overwhelmed to think without the bias.
Interestingly, prophets and prayer rituals are often treated similarly where the sense of doing what is right triggers the "reward system" to yield a comforting sensation. This similar to drug effect reinforces the deed and the belief it is right, and often causes arrogance towards others who do not because they blindly believe what they do is right in their delusion. They think others are astray and wandering in confusion and the wrath of their god.
Now if scriptures are interpreted violently and it looks like the god is angry and hateful towards those who they deem disbelieve, then it may become tragic and even dangerous because they may act with hostility towards the "disbelievers" and their holy war is a service to that god to establish what is "right" (which it not always is). I see dangerous ideology even from some members of this forum even with support for dictatorship, because people believe that this is what their god wills.
This fleshly god can be a real danger to peace and stability.
Salaam
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Salaam amin,
This is my own translation of the passage independent of other available translation with the potential bias being Lane's Lexicon.
Surah At-Taubah, Verse 19
"Do perform your efforts of voluntary work/commitment and upholding of the 'Commandments' to become realized in Allah and the matter of transition and strive in the manner of Allah to be equal the image Allah and Allah is to bless the firmly steadfast."
As you can see the translation is quite off from the traditional one. The last word of the passage I found inconsistency about in the lexicon and it could either mean wrongdoing but also shelter and protection and even continue doing something (steadfastly), like perseverance. This goes hand in hand with the fact the word does not mean 'not' according to my research. The traditional interpretation of wrongdoing would fit very poorly so I investigated the final word.
The understanding of the passage confirms what Jesus spoke of in the Biblical Gospels about immersion in the "Father" rather than traditional sectarian claims. Allah is not a word for GOD but a collective word for those within the realm and means "be that it is". A hint is that Allah is always spoken of in plural. It is quite the phenomenon.
The words given deviating meanings compared to traditional interpretations are taken from Lane's list of viable definitions but rephrased to fit the context. They are not unfounded in my translation to fit my "whims and desires" as people tend to accuse me of.
I do not see masjed haram to refer to any building at all. Haram means sanctified and masjed means something respected (to be minded) I have interpreted it as the actual 'Commandments'. '(Of) Respected Sanctification', or how you should literally translate it.Salaam
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Salam Amin.
Per my understanding the two items are
- The providing of drinks to those who perform hajj and upkeep of the Masjid Al-Haraam imply infrastructural services to those who strive to be pious. The service itself maybe essential/useful but not necessarily ?equal? to piety itself.
- Having faith in Allah and the last day and striving hard in Allah?s path are the core esssences of piety.
Verse 919 tells us that the above two are not the same and 1 does not ?automatically? lead to 2.
So the summary is, one cannot become pious by simply providing infrastructural services to others striving to be pious. The journey to piety is everyone's internal and personal journey and "wrongdoers" are nowhere near that path, even if they take up a job of materialistically facilitating the pious. The common misconception that the religious clergy are by-default the most pious people - is invalid.
This is my straight forward reading. I am curious to know your thoughts on this and open to receiving more insight.
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
Arman -
Quran 9/19
Have you made the providing of water for the pilgrim and the maintenance of al-Masjid al-Haram equal to one who believes in Allah and the Last Day and strives in the cause of Allah ? They are not equal in the sight of Allah . And Allah does not guide the wrongdoing people.What are those two actions that are not equal?
I recommend
http//www.mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-hajj-Quran.html
