Pagans: Greatest sin or not? Heaven or Hell? Q&A for the Quranists...
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This is a question once again that Quranists are unable to answer without exegeses, for them; this is a contradiction and when they admit it's a contradiction, they are committing heresy and thus, not Muslims. For normal Muslims, we have tafseer & ahadith that explains this.
Pagans... is it an unpardonable sin or not? If we say it is, we come with these justifications
Indeed, he who associates others with Allah - Allah has forbidden him Paradise, and his refuge is the Fire. And there are not for the wrongdoers any helpers.
Allah forgiveth not (The sin of) joining other gods with Him; but He forgiveth whom He pleaseth other sins than this one who joins other gods with Allah, Hath strayed far, far away (from the right).
But how can this be if Abraham was a pagan? Does that mean he will not go to Heaven?
From Quran
And when Ibrahim said to his sire, Azar Do you take idols for gods? Surely I see you and your people in manifest error, and thus did We show Ibrahim the kingdom of the heavens and the earth and that he might be of those who are sure. It is therefore when the night over-shadowed him, he saw a star; and he said "This is my Lord." But when it set, he said, "I like not those that disappear." Then, as soon as he saw the moon emerging, he said, "This is my Lord." Yet as soon as it set, he said, "Indeed unless my Lord guides me, indeed I will definitely be of the erring people." Then, as soon as he saw the sun emerging, he said, "This is my Lord, this is greater." Yet as soon as it set, he said, "O my people, surely I am quit of whatever you associate with God. And his people argued with him. He said, "Do you argue with me concerning Allah, and He has already guided me? And I do not fear what you associate with Him, except my Lord will decide anything. My Lord embraces everything in His Knowledge; will you not remind yourselves?
God forgave the prophet for his sin, how come? Or is worshiping the planets not a sin and just another Qiblah for Abraham? Like the philosophy of alchemy of the Sabians about stars and Mercury? The thing is you cannot accept Sabians identification with Hermetic followers, even though it is long established. Therefore, you cannot use this as a excuse for yourselves to keep the infallibility of the Quran.
Also, how can you profess Muhammad as your prophet and curse his (pagan) mother, father, uncle, grandfather and others to Hell? As if Muhammad would be delighted to hear that and tell you; "You're on the right path, keep curse the mother I loved dearly for your faith!"
Is Shirk unpardonable or not, if it is not, is it allowed to regard the stars as God? If yes, where does paganism end? Can I not worship a stone from the Earth in the same fashion? If it is pardonable, then why does that contradict Quran?
If every human (save for the Zalimun whom will be in Hell for all eternity and the infallible (in faith) prophets, like Abraham, whom will go directly to Heaven) is going to Hell and then Heaven, will the Pagans not? It is made clear that Pagans will not go to Hell, then where is this interpretation possible?
This will fade your heretical way and confirm Sunnah again, the prophet & Islam as the truth.
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Why don't you direct your (silly) questions towards G-D (alone)!?
Is the (alleged) "consensus" of your "Umma" not enough for you (that you come here demanding answers from "Qurnists"!?
Don't ye claim to hold G-D's covenant by making a "connection" with our Master (at least 5 times a day)!?
Does G-D not answer your prayers/requests!? ...
... Or is it that you're the one not answering G-D's Solemn Call/Message?
Who's 'The Master'!? Who's 'the slave/servant'!?
What are you trying to rebut here, precisely!? ... That the Qurn is self-authenticating and self-contained?
Or, that it is perspicuous to the objective reader!? Or, that it's its own interpreter ("Scripture interprets Scripture"? ...
~ Perhaps you're trying to overthrow the fact that this enlightening, marvel of a text is (more than) sufficient of itself to be the sole, relevant authority (as far as Divine Guidance is concerned)!?
Do you sincerely believe that G-D's Word is "useless" without your "ulama"!?
Why does the unifying position of Qurnists frighten you so much, ?
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Weren't you adjured to hold fast to the rope of G-D!?
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Why should all those questions be of concern to those who follow Qur'an or have faith in God? Not us who should condemn to hell or send to Heaven. It is God who does that and He knows. Why should we solve your big problems, as the other brothers says, go and ask who knows, God. We are not answerable for that and it would be out of place for any human to pretend to predict what God will do with anybody.
We trust God, and are quite happy and comfortable with Him being the Judge.
Salaam
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Why don't you direct your (silly) questions towards G-D (alone)!?
Don't ye claim to hold G-D's covenant by making a "connection" with our Master (at least 5 times a day)!?
Does G-D not answer your prayers/requests!? ...
... Or is it that you're the one not answering to G-D's Solemn Message?Isn't the (alleged) "consensus" of your "Umma" enough for you (that you come here demanding answers from "Qurnists"!?
What are you trying to refute here, precisely!?
... That the Qurn is self-authenticating?
Or, that it is perspicuous to the objective reader!?
Or, that it's its own interpreter ("Scripture interprets Scripture"?
Or, (perhaps) that it's (more) than sufficient of itself to be the sole, relevant authority (as far as Divine Guidance is concerned)!?
...Do you sincerely believe that G-D's Word is "useless" without your "ulama"!?
Why does the (unifying) position of Qurnists bother you so much, ?
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You do not answer the question, you are desperately defensive. As I predicted, I have collapsed your whole firm belief that Quran stand on its own, which is not true, it requires authentic Ahadith & Sunnah to be understood, Quran is obscure, how are you to interpret Surat al-Fil without Sirat & Hadith? Impossible! Your sect is weak and self-contradicting, just accept the true sect Sunnah, authentic Ahadith with reliable chains from son of Sahabi of Muhammad. Three in chain, authentic it thus means.
You people do not even realize historians view Ahadith as more reliable than they do with Gospels, which were only written mere 40 years after Jesus' death - they view other than 2-3 events in Gospels, it is whole fiction! Tell me, does the majority of orientalists and historians think the same or even similarly about the Ahadith? No, they use them as a primary source along with Sirat, with external sources as secondary and the Quran as the last to worry about. Sure, there are weak Ahadith, such as Muhammad commanding unjust murder or being a pedophile, but there are also authentic ones, like the Year of the Elephant, Sermon of Ali's Authority. Do you think God is just speaking gibberish in Surat al-Fil? That is TRUE KUFFAR!!!! Historical context is always important.
But now, this is for another thread, we are talking about the apparent Quranist contradiction of whether or not Shirk is an unpardonable sin, is it or is it not? Regardless of what you write, consider what I wrote in my first post.
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Why should all those questions be of concern to those who follow Qur'an or have faith in God? Not us who should condemn to hell or send to Heaven. It is God who does that and He knows. Why should we solve your big problems, as the other brothers says, go and ask who knows, God. We are not answerable for that and it would be out of place for any human to pretend to predict what God will do with anybody.
We trust God, and are quite happy and comfortable with Him being the Judge.
Salaam
You also do not answer the question, you dodge what is being said because truth hurts and I have just shown you a contradiction in Quran when you do not use Ahadith. You're too desperate.
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You also do not answer the question, you dodge what is being said because truth hurts and I have just shown you a contradiction in Quran when you do not use Ahadith. You're too desperate.
That's cute! And why should I feel that I should answer such a useless question. What interest does it have?
Le the pagans or whoever worry about their problems, I trust God fully.
Salaam
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And when Ibrahim said to his sire, Azar Do you take idols for gods? Surely I see you and your people in manifest error, and thus did We show Ibrahim the kingdom of the heavens and the earth and that he might be of those who are sure. It is therefore when the night over-shadowed him, he saw a star; and he said "This is my Lord." But when it set, he said, "I like not those that disappear." Then, as soon as he saw the moon emerging, he said, "This is my Lord." Yet as soon as it set, he said, "Indeed unless my Lord guides me, indeed I will definitely be of the erring people." Then, as soon as he saw the sun emerging, he said, "This is my Lord, this is greater." Yet as soon as it set, he said, "O my people, surely I am quit of whatever you associate with God. And his people argued with him. He said, "Do you argue with me concerning Allah, and He has already guided me? And I do not fear what you associate with Him, except my Lord will decide anything. My Lord embraces everything in His Knowledge; will you not remind yourselves?
Please look at the first red highlight. Why you take "he" as Ibrahim and not Azar. Ibrahim was already guided by Allah as per second red highlight.
So where do you see shirk by Ibrahim in the text? -
As how I interpret that narrative is that Abraham is speaking out rhetorically and in a slightly sarcastic way rather than that he was believing in the divinity of bodies in the sky. It is quite apparent in how the passage ends as well where there is an immense rebuttal.
Besides that, considered how the key signature for GOD is "al-rahman, al-raheem" then obviously GOD would forgive a person who realizes their error and completely reforms from their previous bad habits before their interim is over. However, the only thing in life which is important is not this but you have to be a good person too which is of diminished importance to sectarians where they make away with that by translating words as righteous as in piety only by adherence to superficial religious rules and claim this will save them while soundness (م is not them.
Upright and goodly prophets have no affiliation with this bunch. It is like visually comparing black sheep against white sheep.
Salaam
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I've got you all cornered here, none of you can answer the question because you have all realized the irrationality in Quranism, the fact it cannot answer basic things. Your faith is collapsed, dismissed, the Sunnah prevails.
One comes with that Azar says these things, but you're wrong. Quran would have made it clearer who "he" was then.
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I already answered you, hadithete, and you have not got me cornered in any way. It is obvious that Abraham is dealing in rhetorics.
What kind of information is unclear in Quran?
Salaam
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Peae Hadithete.
When you say that"Shirk" is the only unforgivable sin. What do you mean?
If you are saying ,when one does not repent before death, then of course it is.
However, if one repents and corrects before death, then every sin can be forgiven ,including if one committed "shirk"!!!!
You either do not have a good understanding of Qoran, or you are ignoring this fact.
There is no question to answer here in the context of Qoran.
There is no contradiction in Qoran, however,there is bad understanding of Qoran.Pagan now, can become Muslim later and vice-versa.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
O Hadithe,
what makes you think you can use Quran verses for deception? We aren't your sunnis and shias. We aren't scared of checking what is in the Quran. You forgot that we follow just this holybook.
Indeed, he who associates others with Allah - Allah has forbidden him Paradise, and his refuge is the Fire. And there are not for the wrongdoers any helpers.
Editing too much just to make yourself look wiser????
Unfortunately, oopsie! Quran is available for free online. )
These are all the lines that come before that one specific line you mentioned.
They have certainly disbelieved who say, " Allah is the Messiah, the son of Mary" while the Messiah has said, "O Children of Israel, worship Allah , my Lord and your Lord." Indeed, he who associates others with Allah - Allah has forbidden him Paradise, and his refuge is the Fire. And there are not for the wrongdoers any helpers.572
Lesson Truth shown, yet they disbelieve.
Now let's go to your second verse.
Allah forgiveth not (The sin of) joining other gods with Him; but He forgiveth whom He pleaseth other sins than this one who joins other gods with Allah, Hath strayed far, far away (from the right).
The verse before 4116
And whoever opposes the Messenger after guidance has become clear to him and follows other than the way of the believers - We will give him what he has taken and drive him into Hell, and evil it is as a destination.4115The verse after 4116
They call upon instead of Him none but female , and they call upon none but a rebellious Satan.4117Now that you know
And when Ibrahim said to his sire, Azar Do you take idols for gods? Surely I see you and your people in manifest error, and thus did We show Ibrahim the kingdom of the heavens and the earth and that he might be of those who are sure. It is therefore when the night over-shadowed him, he saw a star; and he said "This is my Lord." But when it set, he said, "I like not those that disappear." Then, as soon as he saw the moon emerging, he said, "This is my Lord." Yet as soon as it set, he said, "Indeed unless my Lord guides me, indeed I will definitely be of the erring people." Then, as soon as he saw the sun emerging, he said, "This is my Lord, this is greater." Yet as soon as it set, he said, "O my people, surely I am quit of whatever you associate with God. And his people argued with him. He said, "Do you argue with me concerning Allah, and He has already guided me? And I do not fear what you associate with Him, except my Lord will decide anything. My Lord embraces everything in His Knowledge; will you not remind yourselves?
tell us if a Prophet came to Ibrahim to tell him to worship Allah alone? We Quran followers know this Ibrahim pondered, was guided and became a Prophet himself )
By the way, there is a Surah (hope you know the definition of it) called Al Furqan which addresses what is forgiven and what is not forgiven. It addresses your question very clearly. Here is one verse
Except for those who repent, believe and do righteous work. For them Allah will replace their evil deeds with good. And ever is Allah Forgiving and Merciful.2570
Say, "What would my Lord care for you if not for your supplication?" For you have denied, so your denial is going to be adherent.2577
By the way, if you are extremely scared to read the Quran let me tell you, Prophet Ibrahim repented to Allah
Our Lord, and make us Muslims to You and from our descendants a Muslim nation to You. And show us our rites and accept our repentance. Indeed, You are the Accepting of repentance, the Merciful.2127 -
OP
Just let everyone here remain cornered, frustrated, contradicting and lost.... like you predicted.
But why are you still here??? What are you actually doing here?? Trying to convert people?
He has come to show here that it is not "trendy" to read the Quran.
http//www.sherv.net/cm/emo/icons-land/cool.gif
Its like being an ignorant American from the middle of nowhere of Midwest who thinks its fashionable to think that Uganda is an European country situated between Pakistan and California. That's how he sounds in his every question and this is even worseI've got you all cornered here, none of you can answer the question because you have all realized the irrationality in Quranism, the fact it cannot answer basic things. Your faith is collapsed, dismissed, the Sunnah prevails.
As we know, there is only one Sunnah which happens to be
Then, can they expect anything (else), but the Sunnah (way of dealing) of the peoples of old? So no change will you find in Allah's Sunnah (way of dealing), and no turning off will you find in Allah's Sunnah (way of dealing). (Fatir 3543)The term "Sunnah of Muhammad" is nowhere to be found in Quran. Yes, Allah says obey the messenger, but he doesn't say obey the contradicting and obscene words of bukhari which would be scattered all around Middle East first, go through a period of moderate silence during Mutazila period and then would get collected to override the laws of protected Quran. We also don't find in Quran
You will have his hairstyle
You will follow his fashion statement
You will have his diet
You will have your house designed like his
You will have his walking style
And only then you will be in heaven.And as we discussed earlier Zulf, Hadiths don't even explain Surahs 23, 27, 29, 35, 51, 57, 58, 64, 67, 69, 70, 73, 76, 81, 82, 86, 88, 89, 90, 94, 100, 101, 103, 104, 105, 106, 107, and 109.
But oh well, who cares......right Hadithete D?
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Hadithete,
Peae Hadithete.
When you say that"Shirk" is the only unforgivable sin. What do you mean?
If you are saying ,when one does not repent before death, then of course it is.
However, if one repents and corrects before death, then every sin can be forgiven ,including if one committed "shirk"!!!!
You either do not have a good understanding of Qoran, or you are ignoring this fact.
There is no question to answer here in the context of Qoran.
There is no contradiction in Qoran, however,there is bad understanding of Qoran.Pagan now, can become Muslim later and vice-versa.
GOD bless you.
Peace.See above.
However, you admitted as such
But how can this be if Abraham was a pagan?
was = past tense.
Now, let me ask a question to you what would it take for you to be convinced that Quran is sufficient for believers?
