Reassessing the identity of: Israēl's Progeny
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Salaam brother,
Certainly I am also curious about 'Israel'. The generally unreliable hadith of the Bible say Yeqoob was renamed Israel after the accomplishment of prophethood, but this is a very doubtful version in my opinion.
A theory (remember a THEORY) is that Israel is not really a name of a person or a group of people but a descriptive title for those who fulfill the description.
It is a good idea to identify the root of Israel. All semitic origin words stem from a root and names are/were spiritual and highly descriptive. Alif is not part of the root but a prefix and the word is probably actually two words (a compound) 1. Prefix Alif 2. Word - Siin-(Waw)-Ra 3. Word - Waw(Form of Alif)-Lam, i.e the first word is root Siin-Waw-Ra and the second is the famous AL article in a different (specified) form, which means 'such is like'. The linguistic style belongs to Hebrew (same as Gibra'il) and not Arabic and could be considered a loan word. Even if different languages to an extent they share a lot between the languages in terms of roots while the grammar and word structure works differently.
Siin-Waw-Ra has some available lexicon meanings, but interesting in the context is eminence/nobility, high/elevated station.
Bani Israel could mean the Elevated Children in reference to their relationship to GOD.Quran also gives reference to them as chosen above other people and obviously it does not mean certain people have exclusiveness vut those blessed with the identical knowledge as the 'Bani Israel'.
It does not prevent Yaqoob from being in the event when they were beginning to be called Bani Israel but Yaqoob himself is hardly Israel as an individual man but it is a referral to the collective of like-minded people. The tribes stemming from Yaqoob were probably "Bani Israel" because of their 'Elevated' status in terms of (divine) knowledge. After all, they were chosen for a specific purpose and the grace of knowledge and among them were a succession of prophets but also righteous clerics.
You will also have problems in Quran to find any individual reference to a person named Israel except once when it came to make prohibitions on foodstuffs etc, but that is probably in reference to the collective Israel including their clerics (who invented).
I doubt that all these extra prohibitions that these people imposed on themselves were from GOD but it was just the standard No Pig, no blood, no cadaver etc which always belonged to the decree. I doubt Jesus came with any "lifted sanctions" which never existed except telling people about invented traditions. With Quran it is the same. It just echoes the decree, giving elaboration and tells us about fabrications.
Sabbateh is likely still valid albeit it was misunderstood by the clerics and fabricated upon and extended to what it does not mean. Isa attacks the traditional practice quite harshly in the Biblical Gospels. Those who keep sabbat are responsible for that themselves and no clergymen should interfere. If you always think and work on the topic of GOD it is not very important.
Bani Israel today Anyone who joins the faction no matter whether the original claimants accept it or not and behave in an elevated way and follow what was prescribed upon the Bani Israel.
As for the real Bani Israel (descendants of the twelve tribes). It is hard to track this down I think. But the ones who follow the legacy of the Bani Israel are as them. I am still considering whether there is a need to be of a certain bloodline to be called Bani Israel due to the vague derivation and lack of a specific prophet and person called Israel.
In antiquity It refers to the twelve tribes spread across the Middle-East of that time who gained that Elevated knowledge, probably stemming from Yaqoob's many children who were forgiven by Yusuf (and probably GOD) and later formed their continuous offspring and assemblies with joining members who probably counted as 'Bani Israel'.
It appears that they are still twelve tribes when Musa appears as their twelve tribes miraculously get running water from the mountain.
Why it is just twelve is unknown to me.
But the multiple "homes" which are erroneously referred to in the passage which tells the Bani Israel to turn their "homes" into qiblat are most probably referring to the multiple tribes (assemblies) to focus on what is with (before) them, linguistically speaking when it comes to .There is a lacking consensus between the tribes in the Musa story where some obey and some mess up. Their many quarrels is likely due to this failure on the consensus part. Traveling together with them must have been horrible for Musa.
Salaam
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What do we know about Isral? ?
Salam Hicham,
The Quran 1703 & 1958 respectively
Descendants of whom We carried with Noah. Indeed, he was a grateful servant.
Those were the ones whom Allah bestowed favor upon them, of the Prophets from the descendants of Adam and of whom We carried with Noah, that is, of the descendants of Abraham and Israel, and of whom We guided and chose. When the verses of the Most Merciful were recited to them, they fell in prostration and weeping.
From the above verses, explicitly tells us that the descendants of Abraham and Israel was one of those people who were chosen and saved from the flood. Also in 0333, confirmed that the families of Abraham and Amran was one of those chosen by ALLAH....
Indeed, Allah chose Adam and Noah and the family of Abraham and the family of 'Imran over the worlds -
Abraham and Amran were of 2 different genealogies. Both were direct descendants of Nuh. Both of them and of their descendants - , were given Prophet hood.
And We have already sent Noah and Abraham and placed in their descendants Prophethood and the Book; so among them are guided, but many of them are defiantly disobedient.
Who are Isral's Progeny? (in antiquity and today) ?
The progeny of Israel after the ministry of Esa broke into 2 parties - the Quran 6114
O you who have believed, be supporters of Allah , as when Esa, the son of Maryam, said to the disciples, "Who are my supporters for Allah ?" The disciples said, "We are supporters of Allah." And a faction of the Children of Israel believed and a faction disbelieved. So We supported those who believed against their enemy, and they became dominant.
As the Quran says, when those who believe of the Children of Israel , became victorious and dominant. These dominant children of Israel in turn became a mingle race, they mingle with Arabs of South Arabia. The Quran 17104
And We said thereafter to the Children of Israel, "Dwell securely in the land (of promise)" but when the second of the warnings came to pass, We gathered you together in a mingled crowd.
The Book of Job stated that the Prophet Ayub who was descended from Esa, married an Arab woman.So, the Quran is aqurate in this extent. Further, archaeological evidence shows that The Children of Israel was in South Arabia, the grave of the ancestor of Israeli Prophets, Amran and the grave of Ayub are in South Arabia.
The Quranic Nasara, were not Christians as most Muslim and western apologist said. The Quran is very explicit on these. Christians from the Quranic point are those Monophysites and Trinitrians . According to the Quran, Monopysites and Trinitrians are unbelievers.
Conclusion
Israel, the father of the Israelite, his descendants were one of those who boarded the Ark of Nuh. In antiquity, they were a chosen people because they were the only ones left that was directly descended from Nuh. The other nations that existed were all Ismaelite. As it goes along, Musa became the first Prophet of the Israelite and follow on with Harun, Dawood and his son Sulaiman. Maryam, the sister of Harun, the mother of Esa, it IS plausible, were present during the ministry of Dawood or Sulaiman. The Taurat, which is a Zabur {Section of the Book] was first given to Dawood. It was written in a South Arabian language.
Esa who was born , was given the second Zabur, The Injeel, also written in South Arabian language. During his ministry, that the Israelite, disputed after knowledge had come to them. Some believe in him, some disbelieve. They became a BREAK AWAY PARTY. The believers, were the Al Ansar who mingle with the Arabs of South Arabia and become what is known to us, the Nasara. Those who do not believe among the Israelite and possible the Arabs also became the Monophysites.
Peace
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The Quranic Nasara, were not Christians as most Muslim and western apologist said. The Quran is very explicit on these. Christians from the Quranic point are those Monophysites and Trinitrians . According to the Quran, Monopysites and Trinitrians are unbelievers.
Bold I tend to agree with this. I doubt that the Christians were the Nazarenes.
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Conclusion
Israel, the father of the Israelite, his descendants were one of those who boarded the Ark of Nuh. In antiquity, they were a chosen people because they were the only ones left that was directly descended from Nuh. The other nations that existed were all Ismaelite. As it goes along, Musa became the first Prophet of the Israelite and follow on with Harun, Dawood and his son Sulaiman. Maryam, the sister of Harun, the mother of Esa, it IS plausible, were present during the ministry of Dawood or Sulaiman. The Taurat, which is a Zabur {Section of the Book] was first given to Dawood. It was written in a South Arabian language.
Esa who was born , was given the second Zabur, The Injeel, also written in South Arabian language. During his ministry, that the Israelite, disputed after knowledge had come to them. Some believe in him, some disbelieve. They became a BREAK AWAY PARTY. The believers, were the Al Ansar who mingle with the Arabs of South Arabia and become what is known to us, the Nasara. Those who do not believe among the Israelite and possible the Arabs also became the Monophysites.
Bold So, do you think that Taurat and Injeel was first written in Arabic?
I wonder if actually all of God's messages were originally written in Arabic.
@ mmkhan, @ hawk99
Brothers, I hope you two would notice and read what I quoted above.
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Bold So, do you think that Taurat and Injeel was first written in Arabic?
I wonder if actually all of God's messages were originally written in Arabic.
@ mmkhan, @ hawk99
Brothers, I hope you two would notice and read what I quoted above.
They were written in one of those South Arabian Musnad script eg, Sabaic, Qatabanic, Hadramautic, Minaic (or Madhabic), Himyaritic.
The Quran 0578
Cursed were those who disbelieved among the Children of Israel by the tongue of Dawood and of Esa, the son of Mary. That was because they disobeyed and transgressed.
From the verse above, it shows that the Israelite, of those who follow Dawood and Esa, had their own dialect and it is plausible that the Taurat and Injeel were written in the language of the Israelite of Dawood and Esa respectively. It can be one of those dialect mentioned above.
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Well, there is no such thing as unbelievers, at least not as far as kafar goes.
Those who imitate/assimilate and act in the aura of ALLAH are fine.
A'had is usually interpreted erroneously when it means in unity (as one) instead of "alone". It is the symbiotic state of which I have been telling. You are to be one in ALLAH. ALLAH is not a separate entity. You may check a dictionary definition for the word.
The trinity belief is erroneous because it makes a separation of the Messiah and not because they equal him with ALLAH.
Salaam
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http//i.imgur.com/Km71lnW.png
Peace
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Bold So, do you think that Taurat and Injeel was first written in Arabic?
I wonder if actually all of God's messages were originally written in Arabic.
@ mmkhan, @ hawk99
Brothers, I hope you two would notice and read what I quoted above.
Are you serious? Every word in Quran that refers to the Jews, Thora etc is borrowed from hebrew. This is a linguistic fact. If those words are borrowed from hebrew how can you even consider the Thora being written in arabic?
Peace
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For the creative linguists on this forum, here's one of the tools I use to check linguistic etymology. I can highly recommend it to crosscheck your 'theories'...
https//archive.org/stream/foreignvocabular030753mbp
Peace
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They were written in one of those South Arabian Musnad script eg, Sabaic, Qatabanic, Hadramautic, Minaic (or Madhabic), Himyaritic.
The Quran 0578
Cursed were those who disbelieved among the Children of Israel by the tongue of Dawood and of Esa, the son of Mary. That was because they disobeyed and transgressed.
From the verse above, it shows that the Israelite, of those who follow Dawood and Esa, had their own dialect and it is plausible that the Taurat and Injeel were written in the language of the Israelite of Dawood and Esa respectively. It can be one of those dialect mentioned above.
This 'dialect' you refer to is hebrew. Even the name Dawood itself is of hebrew origin. The names for Dawood, Esa, Mary all have hebrew roots, not one of them can be traced to a pre-islamic southern arabian language.
Peace
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Are you serious? Every word in Quran that refers to the Jews, Thora etc is borrowed from hebrew. This is a linguistic fact.
This 'dialect' you refer to is hebrew.
Linguistic fact?
More likely it is nothing but Orientalist, political propaganda.
I have said it before and I will say it again, for the 1000th time there is no such thing as a "Hebrew" language.
This term, which they brandish like a scourge in front of our faces, claiming its "holiness" and "originality" was invented from scratch by a Russian linguist named Eliezar Ben Yehudha, in order to create an esperanto for the Jews who came from all corners of the world, and to artificially unify them in a single nationality, eventhoiugh historical evidence shows they had nothing in common. How can you invent a national ndentity, if you don't have a common tongue for all?
The term "hebrew" , which is 'ibran (ن in Arabic, is not a proper noun. It is a common description which simply means "nomad" / "one who moves" / "wanderer" / "one who goes in search for a place to settle" / "one who crosses over".
Don't believe me? Look it up.
The photo you see below belongs to a Yemeni scholar and historian by the name of Muthir Ali Aryani . It is supperimposed on a Sheban inscription. This man, who is still alive today, and 83 years old, has examined hundreds of South Arabian inscriptions from his native country. Many of these same inscriptions were also analyzed previously by Eduard Glaser. A large number of the inscriptions has been stolen and are now on display in the museums of Europe, where they carry the tag of "GL" on them (refering to Glaser). So you will find them numbered as such, for example GL-1113 / GL-1114 / , etc...
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eduard_Glaser
http//i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb386/Gorefiendel/Aryani_zpsnad8tq9q.jpg
Among these relics, written in stone using the Musnad script, are dozens of tablets which feature the term 3ibran (HEBREWS) which clearly indicates NOMADS in the context thereof.
Here is one such example
http//i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb386/Gorefiendel/No.32_zpscagl82jb.jpg
The above photo is taken from tablet number 32 in Aryani's book "Himyaritic Inscriptions and Commentaries". The first few lines state the following
The chief, Sa'd Ta'leb Yatlif al-Jadni, great among the 'ibran (hebrews) of Saba' (Sheba), Kindah, Midhaj, aram, Bhil, Zad-eel, imyar, aramawt and Yamnt, hereby makes an offering to his Lord, Al-Maqah, Baal of Awm; this statuette of bronze and gold, thanking him for allowing safe passage of his servant, Sa'd Ta'leb Dhi-Jadn, and those with him of the 'ibrn, who sought refuge in the city of Nashaq, on their way from aramawt.
As you can see, the word clearly indicates nomads, in the context. There's plenty more where that came from.
One particular Musnad tablet, placed on display in a museum in Vienna, and tagged as GL1155, speaks of Misr and its ruler, whom it identifies as such
?Amdq...kabri Mr wa Ma?n Mr.
What this tells us is that Misr was within the boundaries of the Mai'n kingdom, in South Arabia. It is for this reason that the German proffessor Hugo Winckler made the following bold statement in the year 1899, which the "politically correct" Orientalists of his age did not like
The two Israelite Kingdoms were autonomous regions within the borders of the Minean Kingdom.
Here is another example of Misr, from a different occasion (marriage of two people)
http//i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb386/Gorefiendel/Glaser_zps739pq8u6.jpg
The above is tagged GL1282, and here is the translation
Zayd-eel bin 'Abd, from the clan of Tayzan, belonging to the tribe of Mawqih, herewith ties the knot with Mahar Badr, from Misr.
Is this Misr synonymous with the Egypt of the Nile?
There is a difference between saying the truth and saying what is politically correct. Very often the two don't agree.
Truth The Israelites were not the only hebrews (nomads) but simply one people from among many that were described so. These Israelites were originally residents of South Arabia, and they gradually made the transition to a more sedentary life. They were not culturaly different from the other tribes of the region. And the language they spoke was an ancient, South Arabian dialect. The Zinoist propaganda machine, seeking to "revive" a so-called "Hebrew" language which they claim had been dead for 2000 years, chose the perfect timing to do this the turn of the 20th Century, when their imperial project began to take shape. The aim was to create an artifical language that could unite the Jews of the world (Russians, Poles, Germans, Dutch, Hungarians, etc...) under one banner, and force a fake national identity for them in Palestine, an identity which had no historical basis whatsoever. To do this, Eliezar bin Yehuda took an ancient South Arabian vernacular (Sheba-Himyar), from a glossary he had access to, mixed it with Yiddish (a German rural dialect), peppered it with some Arabic here and there, adopted the Squared Aramaic script as its vehicle, and came out to the world with claims of holiness and originality.
All you have to do to verify this truth is listen to recordings of the bedouin tribes of Hadhramaut and Shibwah, who still speak these ancient dialetcs in the desolate corners of those countries, and you will immediately catch the drift and see how similar their speach is, in cadence and phonetics, to the so-called "Hebrew" that they boast of. When you say "Hebrew Language", you are basically reiterating the falsehood of a universal and unique tongue called "the Nomadic Labguage". Do you not see how absurd this is?
Political Propaganda The "Hebrews" are a culturally different and seperate race, having specific and unique attributes of "holiness" being that they are the only "Semitic" peoples, while other races are inferior beings of "non-Semitic" stock. These Hebrews are exclusively Israelites, and their promised land was in Palestine, and they spoke a special and unique language called "Hebrew" which is unlike any other, because it was tought to them by God Himself.
Peace.
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The oldest hebrew inscriptions are thousands of years older than any zionist movements saw daylight. Pretending hebrew is not a proper semitic language is just inane - ignoring linguistic and historical evidence. Evidence of a hebrew community existing in the kingdom of sheba does not erase the hebrew language from the semitic language family tree. In contrary.
@Pazuzu, if you are unable to seperate politics from linguistics I'm afraid your posts will contribute little to this debate except confusion and self-contradiction. Your self-contradiction is obvious. If hebrew was not a proper semitic language then why are hebrew words so often used in Quran? If the etymology of those words is not hebrew then what is it? They certainly aren't arabic. (see http//archive.org/stream/foreignvocabular030753mbp) What about the Gezer calendar? What about the Zayit Stone and paleo-hebrew?
Peace
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Zayit Stone, Gezer calendar, Mesha stele, Sidon, ...
Paleo-hebrew was originally written in phoenician alphabet. Are you unaware of this? The text is hebrew though.
If you opened an etymological arab lexicon even once, it's hard not to be hit in the face by the many similarities between phoenician, hebrew and quranic keywords.
Peace
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How is "Paleo-hebrew" not questionable!?
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You ask me how it is not questionable after I gave you examples of historical evidence of it? It linguistically interlocks with among others the moabite language, proto-canaanite language and phoenician. If you question paleo-hebrew, you will have to question all those others as well because they were indistinguishable before 1050 BCE. Paleo-hebrew started its own branch in the semitic language tree after 1050 BCE as the archaeological evidence shows you.
Peace
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To me the israelites in Quran are the descendants of the tribe of Jacob.
Peace