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  4. How would you translate 19:29/30/31

How would you translate 19:29/30/31

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  • R Offline
    R Offline
    runninglikezebras
    wrote on last edited by
    #18

    "Allah has enjoined me the prayer and charity till I remain alive."

    How could Allah enjoin/command Jesus WITH Salat and Zakah?

    I answered this. This is the new convenant. It is not an instruction from God to Jesus to pray and give charity himself but to establish the new convenant which includes the system of prayer and charity for the people of Israel.

    7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion to look for a second. 8 For he finds fault with them when he says "Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, 9 not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt. For they did not continue in my covenant, and so I showed no concern for them, declares the Lord. 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord I will put my laws into their minds, and write them on their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 11 And they shall not teach, each one his neighbor and each one his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest. 12 For I will be merciful toward their iniquities, and I will remember their sins no more." 13 In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

    Hebrews 87?13

    Peace

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    • H Offline
      H Offline
      hafeez_kazi
      wrote on last edited by
      #19

      Pece rlz

      Thanks for the interest shown.

      Again you are missing.

      How could Allah enjoin/command Jesus WITH Salat and Zakah?

      Yes Allah could not enjoin Jesus (BI S SALAT) WITH salat and zakat.

      But the verse say so, which is grammatically incorrect

      the meaning of BI S SALAT is (WITH/BY/FOR SALAT).

      AUSANI BIS SALAT - enjoined me WITH the salat which is not possible.

      I need a logical translation of the verse

      Thanks

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      • R Offline
        R Offline
        runninglikezebras
        wrote on last edited by
        #20

        Imagine, hypothetically, you receive from God instructions for prayer and charity. You are endorsed by God to establish these in the peoples hearts and minds...

        Then what is grammatically incorrect in the verse when you say

        "God enjoined me WITH the salat"

        Take a more mundane example. I give you a book and I endorse you to return it to the library

        "I enjoined you WITH the book"

        I really fail to see a problem.

        Peace

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        • H Offline
          H Offline
          hafeez_kazi
          wrote on last edited by
          #21

          Peace

          ENJOINED (VERB) to order (someone) to do (something); urge strongly; command
          The code enjoined members TO trade fairly
          The doctor enjoined the patient TO walk daily
          If your doctor enjoins you TO stop smoking, he is suggesting strongly that you quit

          If it was a command to Jesus then he should have been commanded TO estasblish the salat and GIVE zakah

          Jesus cannot be commanded WITH salat and ZAKAH

          Don't say that he was commanded TO establish the prayer and give zakah, because this is not mentioned in the verse.

          And ESTABLISH prayer and GIVE zakah, and whatever good you put forward for yourselves - you will find it with Allah. Indeed, Allah of what you do, is Seeing. (Al-Baqara 110)

          And abide in your houses and do not display yourselves as the display of the former times of ignorance. And ESTABLISH the prayer and GIVEzakah and obey Allah and His Messenger. Allah intends only to remove from you the impurity , O people of the household, and to purify you with purification. (Al-Ahzaab 33)

          If AUSANI is command/enjoin then what was the command to Jesus WITH salat and ZAKAH.

          Thanks

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          • R Offline
            R Offline
            runninglikezebras
            wrote on last edited by
            #22

            It seems you ignored my examples showing it's linguistically perfectly sound.

            The code enjoined members TO trade fairly

            => The code enjoined members WITH fair trade

            The doctor enjoined the patient TO walk daily

            => The doctor enjoined the patient WITH daily walks

            If your doctor enjoins you TO stop smoking, he is suggesting strongly that you quit

            => The doctor enjoins you WITH a smoking ban.

            What concerns ESTABLISH zakah and prayer. This is actively realizing them yourself. Again, God does not instruct Jesus to ESTABLISH prayer and zakah himself. God instructs him WITH the prayer.

            In your example, the Messenger is neither asked to ESTABLISH the prayer. The followers of the messenger are instructed to ESTABLISH. The messenger is enjoined WITH the prayer and zakat.

            When Quran uses ESTABLISH in combination with prayer and zakat it refers to a duty you have to realize yourself. When Quran does not use ESTABLISH it speaks about the blueprint for the prayer and zakat.

            When you are enjoined with something, it means the subject is WITH you, in your possession, under your supervision, in your control. This is illustrated by the fact that none of the prophets were told to pray or give charity given certain rules. They are not asked to establish. That message is for those following them. It seems that the messengers/prophets like Jesus knew how to pray and give charity from the heart. As such they served as an example. The prayer and zakat were in a way part of their identity, natural to them or God-given.

            To make things easy enjoined with means almost the same as "joined with". It has a different meaning than "enjoined to". "Enjoined with" does not necessarily mean a command but expresses what one is "joined" with.

            Jesus is enjoined with the prayer. The followers when they are enjoined to the prayer and obey the messenger/message they also become joined with the prayer. When you accepted prayer/charity, you are joined with it. Connected with it. In a larger perspective joined with God. It connects one with God.

            Peace

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            • H Offline
              H Offline
              hafeez_kazi
              wrote on last edited by
              #23

              This is illustrated by the fact that none of the prophets were told to pray or give charity given certain rules. They are not asked to establish. That message is for those following them.

              Verily thy Lord knows that thou stay up near two- thirds of the night, Or half thereof, or a third thereof, and also a party of those who are with thee. And Allah measures the night and the day. He knows that ye can compute it not, He hath relented toward you. Wherefore proclaim now of the Qur'an, so much as is easy. He knows that there will be among you some diseased, and others shall be travelling in the land seeking grace of Allah, and others shall be fighting in the way of Allah. Wherefore (O Prophet ) proclaim thereof so much as is easy; and establish the prayer and give Zakat and lend Unto Allah a goodly loan. Whatsoever good ye shall send on for your souls, ye shall find it with Allah, better and greater in reward. And ask forgiveness of Allah; verily Allah is Forgiving, Merciful 7320

              (O Prophet) establish the prayer at the sun set until the darkness of the night and the Qur'an of dawn. Indeed, the recitation of dawn is ever witnessed. 17 78

              And establish (O Prophet) the prayer at two ends/sides of the day BUT in the nearness of the night. Indeed, good deeds do away with misdeeds. That is a reminder for those who remember. 11 114

              Prophet Muhammad was explicitly commanded to establish the prayer and give zakah

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              • R Offline
                R Offline
                runninglikezebras
                wrote on last edited by
                #24

                Lol hafeez. The parts between brackets are additions not part of the quranic text. Please, bring some real evidence.

                Peace

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                • R Offline
                  R Offline
                  runninglikezebras
                  wrote on last edited by
                  #25

                  The prophet is hardly mentioned in the quranic text (you are misled by the injections in sectarian translations). Proving my point. The messenger already prayed the right way, gave charity the right way. Guided by God.

                  The entire message in Quran is a message for the followers of the message and the messenger. When the instructions are explicitly for the prophet, the prophet is explicitly mentioned. But there aren't many of those.

                  Peace

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                  • H Offline
                    H Offline
                    hafeez_kazi
                    wrote on last edited by
                    #26

                    (111141)
                    wa-aqimi
                    And establish CONJ ? prefixed conjunction wa (and)
                    V ? 2nd person masculine singular (form IV) imperative verb

                    (111142)
                    l-alata
                    the prayer N ? accusative feminine noun

                    (17781)
                    aqimi
                    Establish V ? 2nd person masculine singular (form IV) imperative verb

                    (17782)
                    l-alata
                    the prayer, N ? accusative feminine noun

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                    • R Offline
                      R Offline
                      runninglikezebras
                      wrote on last edited by
                      #27

                      Sure. But where does it mention "The prophet"? It doesn't say "O Prophet, establish". It says "Establish". So these are instructions for those following the message and following the messenger.

                      Peace

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                      • H Offline
                        H Offline
                        hafeez_kazi
                        wrote on last edited by
                        #28

                        Chapter (2) srat l-baqarah (The Cow)

                        (2431)
                        wa-aqm
                        And establish

                        CONJ ? prefixed conjunction wa (and)
                        V ? 2nd person masculine plural (form IV) imperative verb
                        PRON ? subject pronoun

                        AQIMI is SINGULAR therefore addressed to the prophet

                        AQIMU is PLURAL therefore addressed to the followers of the prophet.

                        And when he came to it, he was called, "O Moses Indeed, I am your Lord, so remove your sandals. Indeed, you are in the sacred valley of Tuwa And I have chosen you, so listen to what is revealed . Indeed, I am Allah. There is no deity except Me, so worship Me and establish prayer for My remembrance. (20 14)

                        REVEALED TO PROPHET MOSES. IS THERE ANY DOUBT. IS THIS REVEALED FOR HIS FOLLOWERS.

                        O my son, establish prayer, enjoin what is right, forbid what is wrong, and be patient over what befalls you. Indeed, that is of the matters determination. (31 17)

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                        • R Offline
                          R Offline
                          runninglikezebras
                          wrote on last edited by
                          #29

                          Chapter (2) srat l-baqarah (The Cow)

                          (2431)
                          wa-aqm
                          And establish

                          CONJ ? prefixed conjunction wa (and)
                          V ? 2nd person masculine plural (form IV) imperative verb
                          PRON ? subject pronoun

                          AQIMI is SINGULAR therefore addressed to the prophet

                          AQIMU is PLURAL therefore addressed to the followers of the prophet.

                          And when he came to it, he was called, "O Moses Indeed, I am your Lord, so remove your sandals. Indeed, you are in the sacred valley of Tuwa And I have chosen you, so listen to what is revealed . Indeed, I am Allah. There is no deity except Me, so worship Me and establish prayer for My remembrance. (20 14)

                          REVEALED TO PROPHET MOSES. IS THERE ANY DOUBT. IS THIS REVEALED FOR HIS FOLLOWERS.

                          O my son, establish prayer, enjoin what is right, forbid what is wrong, and be patient over what befalls you. Indeed, that is of the matters determination. (31 17)

                          2014 is an example of how God instructs Moses when God chose moses as a prophet. Moses is an exception because he is the only prophet in Quran to which God spoke directly.

                          Jesus was not chosen as prophet somewhere during his life. He was born as a prophet and thus ENJOINED WITH.

                          The other verse is not addressed at Muhammad. It's conjecture to understand singular means addressed at the prophet. If it was addressed at the prophet it would explicitly mention it like in 2014. There is no verse I know of like 2014 that addresses Muhammad in such a way. Muhammad never spoke directly with God. To Muhammad God sent Djibril. One of the few exceptions in Quran are the verses where the prophet gets reprimanded by God.

                          "O my son" can be anyone. We are all created by God. Or are you like the christians claiming Jesus is Gods son?

                          Peace

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                          • R Offline
                            R Offline
                            runninglikezebras
                            wrote on last edited by
                            #30

                            Just use your reason hafeez. Why would the messenger recite a message that is addressed to himself? Wouldn't that be totally crazy?

                            The entire Quran is a message for the follower(s) of the message. When it is not, the names are explicitly mentioned.

                            Peace

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                            • H Offline
                              H Offline
                              hafeez_kazi
                              wrote on last edited by
                              #31

                              Establish (SINGULAR) prayer at the decline of the sun until the darkness of the night and the Qur'an of dawn. Indeed, the recitation of dawn is ever witnessed. AND from the night, pray with it as additional FOR THEE (SINGULAR) it is expected that THY LORD (SINGULAR) will RAISE THEE (SINGULAR) to a praised station 1778/79

                              Both these verses are addressed to a SINGLE person and that very person would be raised to a praised station.

                              WHO IS THAT PERSON?

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                              • R Offline
                                R Offline
                                runninglikezebras
                                wrote on last edited by
                                #32

                                The reader/listener/receiver of the message.

                                Peace

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                                • H Offline
                                  H Offline
                                  hafeez_kazi
                                  wrote on last edited by
                                  #33

                                  The reader/listener.

                                  GOOD REPLY

                                  Everyone is a reader/listener, so everyone will be raised to a praised station.

                                  Thanks

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                                  • R Offline
                                    R Offline
                                    runninglikezebras
                                    wrote on last edited by
                                    #34

                                    It is conditional (establish the salat). And you missed a part in your translation "maybe". It does not say "it is expected". It says "maybe/perhaps".

                                    Establish the salat and it may be that the Lord lifts you to a praised station. Even if you establish the salat, it is no guarantee you will gain more praiseworthiness. But it helps.

                                    Peace

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                                    • H Offline
                                      H Offline
                                      hafeez_kazi
                                      wrote on last edited by
                                      #35

                                      You are the first person on the planet who says that these verses (1778/79) are addressed to reader/listener.

                                      And their purpose was to tempt thee (READER/LISTENER) away from that which We had revealed unto thee (READER/LISTENER), to substitute in our name something quite different; (in that case), behold! they would certainly have made thee (READER/LISTENER) (their) friend! 1773

                                      And if We had not strengthened you (READER/LISTENER), you (READER/LISTENER) would have almost inclined to them a little 1774

                                      Then had we made thee (READER/LISTENER) taste a double (punishment) of living and a double (punishment) of dying, then hadst thou (READER/LISTENER) found no helper against Us 1775

                                      And they indeed wished to scare thee (READER/LISTENER) from the land that they might drive thee (READER/LISTENER) forth from thence, and then they would have stayed (there) but a little after thee (READER/LISTENER) 1776

                                      (Such was Our) method in the case of those whom We sent before thee (READER/LISTENER) (to mankind), and thou (READER/LISTENER) wilt not find for Our method aught of power to change 1777

                                      (READER/LISTENER) Establish prayer at the decline of the sun until the darkness of the night and the Qur'an of dawn. Indeed, the recitation of dawn is ever witnessed. 1778

                                      And from the night (READER/LISTENER), pray with it as additional for you (READER/LISTENER); it is expected that your (READER/LISTENER) Lord will raise you (READER/LISTENER) to a praised station. 1779

                                      And say (READER/LISTENER), "My Lord, cause me (READER/LISTENER) to enter a sound entrance and to exit a sound exit and grant me (READER/LISTENER) from Yourself a supporting
                                      authority 1780

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                                      • M Offline
                                        M Offline
                                        mmkhan
                                        wrote on last edited by
                                        #36

                                        The reader/listener/receiver of the message.

                                        Peace

                                        Peace brother,

                                        I agree bravo
                                        Surely almost all singular forms in alQuraan are direct referring to the reader.
                                        If we don't take these aayaat directly addressing to us, then it is really difficult to understand the Book of Allah.
                                        And secondly, it is of no use studying the Book which is not addressing directly to us but to someone else.

                                        And Rasools and Nabis are not unique, they are simple humans like us. And to my understanding Rasool and Nabi in Arabic are the common words, there is nothing Islamic in it.

                                        May Allah increase our knowledge and guide us on His path pr
                                        mmKhan

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                                        • R Offline
                                          R Offline
                                          runninglikezebras
                                          wrote on last edited by
                                          #37

                                          If you find disharmony by interpreting them as such please show me where you see it. Because I don't see anything problematic about it.

                                          Peace

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