How would you translate 19:29/30/31

hafeez_kazi

You are the first person on the planet who says that these verses (1778/79) are addressed to reader/listener.

And their purpose was to tempt thee (READER/LISTENER) away from that which We had revealed unto thee (READER/LISTENER), to substitute in our name something quite different; (in that case), behold! they would certainly have made thee (READER/LISTENER) (their) friend! 1773

And if We had not strengthened you (READER/LISTENER), you (READER/LISTENER) would have almost inclined to them a little 1774

Then had we made thee (READER/LISTENER) taste a double (punishment) of living and a double (punishment) of dying, then hadst thou (READER/LISTENER) found no helper against Us 1775

And they indeed wished to scare thee (READER/LISTENER) from the land that they might drive thee (READER/LISTENER) forth from thence, and then they would have stayed (there) but a little after thee (READER/LISTENER) 1776

(Such was Our) method in the case of those whom We sent before thee (READER/LISTENER) (to mankind), and thou (READER/LISTENER) wilt not find for Our method aught of power to change 1777

(READER/LISTENER) Establish prayer at the decline of the sun until the darkness of the night and the Qur'an of dawn. Indeed, the recitation of dawn is ever witnessed. 1778

And from the night (READER/LISTENER), pray with it as additional for you (READER/LISTENER); it is expected that your (READER/LISTENER) Lord will raise you (READER/LISTENER) to a praised station. 1779

And say (READER/LISTENER), "My Lord, cause me (READER/LISTENER) to enter a sound entrance and to exit a sound exit and grant me (READER/LISTENER) from Yourself a supporting
authority 1780

mmkhan

The reader/listener/receiver of the message.

Peace

Peace brother,

I agree bravo
Surely almost all singular forms in alQuraan are direct referring to the reader.
If we don't take these aayaat directly addressing to us, then it is really difficult to understand the Book of Allah.
And secondly, it is of no use studying the Book which is not addressing directly to us but to someone else.

And Rasools and Nabis are not unique, they are simple humans like us. And to my understanding Rasool and Nabi in Arabic are the common words, there is nothing Islamic in it.

May Allah increase our knowledge and guide us on His path pr
mmKhan

runninglikezebras

If you find disharmony by interpreting them as such please show me where you see it. Because I don't see anything problematic about it.

Peace

runninglikezebras

Peace brother,

I agree bravo
Surely almost all singular forms in alQuraan are direct referring to the reader.
If we don't take these aayaat directly addressing to us, then it is really difficult to understand the Book of Allah.

Thank you for the kind words mmkhan. I would even take it one step further and say "If we don't take these aayaat directly addressing to us, then it is pointless to read them".

Peace

hafeez_kazi

Surely almost all singular forms in alQuraan are direct referring to the reader.
If we don't take these aayaat directly addressing to us, then it is really difficult to understand the Book of Allah.
And secondly, it is of no use studying the Book which is not addressing directly to us but to someone else.

Verily We have revealed unto thee (READER/LISTENER) clear tokens, and only miscreants will disbelieve in them. (Al-Baqara 99)

And We have sent thee (READER/LISTENER) with the truth, a bringer of glad tidings and a warner. And thou (READER/LISTENER) wilt not be asked about the owners of hell-fire. (Al-Baqara 119)

We have seen the turning of thy (READER/LISTENER) face to heaven And now verily We shall make thee (READER/LISTENER) turn (in prayer) toward a qiblah which is dear to thee (READER/LISTENER). So turn thy (READER/LISTENER) face toward the Inviolable Place of Worship, and ye (O Muslims), wheresoever ye may be, turn your faces (when ye pray) toward it. Lo! Those who have received the Scripture know that (this revelation) is the Truth from their Lord. And Allah is not unaware of what they do. (Al-Baqara 144)

They ask thee (READER/LISTENER), of new moons, say

They ask thee, (READER/LISTENER), what they shall spend. Say

They question thee (READER/LISTENER) with regard to warfare in the sacred month. Say

They question thee (READER/LISTENER) about strong drink and games of chance. Say

And they ask thee (READER/LISTENER) what they ought to spend. Say

And they question thee (READER/LISTENER) concerning orphans. Say

They question thee (READER/LISTENER) concerning menstruation. Say

Among the People of the Scripture there is he who, if thou (READER/LISTENER) trust him with a weight of treasure, will return it to thee (READER/LISTENER). And among them there is he who, if thou (READER/LISTENER) trust him with a piece of gold, will not return it to thee (READER/LISTENER) unless thou (READER/LISTENER) keep standing over him. That is because they say We have no duty to the Gentiles. They speak a lie concerning Allah knowingly. (Aali Imraan 75)

hafeez_kazi

It is no concern at all of thee (READER/LISTENER) whether He relent toward them or punish them; for they are evil-doers

And if they deny thee (READER/LISTENER), even so did they deny messengers who were before thee (READER/LISTENER), who came with miracles and with the Psalms and with the Scripture giving light.

Hast thou (READER/LISTENER) not seen those who pretend that they believe in that which is revealed unto thee (LISTENER/READER) and that which was revealed before thee (LISTENER/READER), how they would go for judgment (in their disputes) to false deities when they have been ordered to abjure them? Satan would mislead them far astray.

But for the grace of Allah upon thee (READER/LISTENER), and His mercy, a party of them had resolved to mislead thee (READER/LISTENER), but they will mislead only themselves and they will hurt thee (READER/LISTENER) not at all. Allah revealeth unto thee (READER/LISTENER) the Scripture and wisdom, and teacheth thee (READER/LISTENER) that which thou (READER/LISTENER) knewest not. The grace of Allah toward thee (READER/LISTENER) hath been infinite

Lo! We inspire thee (READER/LISTENER) as We inspired Noah and the prophets after him, as We inspired Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the tribes, and Jesus and Job and Jonah and Aaron and Solomon, and as We imparted unto David the Psalms;

And if they deny thee, (READER/LISTENER), messengers (of Allah) were denied before thee (READER/LISTENER). Unto Allah all things are brought back.

And thus We have inspired in thee (READER/LISTENER) a Lecture in Arabic, that thou (READER/LISTENER) mayst warn the mother-town and those around it, and mayst warn of a day of assembling whereof there is no doubt.

hawk99

Peace

nope true, we are to take the lessons from the Quranic narration/text
but the dialogue is to Muhammad. (rasul) and the reader.

I appreciate folks erroneously including me with this group but
I don't belong with them!

Lo! We inspire thee (READER/LISTENER) (Muhammad) as We inspired Noah and the prophets
after him, as We inspired Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the tribes,
and Jesus and Job and Jonah and Aaron and Solomon, and as
We imparted unto David the Psalms;

May God bless you all

Man_of_Faith

Everyone translates the root as "establish". How about consider it might mean something else. The root itself has a definition as keep. I would say it has to do with consciousness and the word is used for an Arabic word used to refer to people who have consciousnesses.

Be well

mmkhan

Thank you for the kind words mmkhan. I would even take it one step further and say "If we don't take these aayaat directly addressing to us, then it is pointless to read them".

Peace

Peace bro,

Yes I agree with you again there is no point in reading them. handshake

May Allah increase our knowledge and guide us on His path pr
mmKhan

mmkhan

Lo! We inspire thee (READER/LISTENER) as We inspired Noah and the prophets after him, as We inspired Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the tribes, and Jesus and Job and Jonah and Aaron and Solomon, and as We imparted unto David the Psalms;

Peace brother,

Thank you for the aayaat.

Yes, they all are referring to you and me and others as a reader unless it is addressed by names.
Try taking those aayaat as Allah is talking to you and you will see the lot of difference in yourself. Just take a try.

As you bold the part of the above aayat, we can talk on that for instance. Don't you think Allah inspired you as those who mentioned in that aayat? If not, then who inspired you and how did you reach up to this level of understanding without Allah's inspiration? You are not like others, compare yourself with those who are far far away from the understanding of the Book and be thankful to your Lord, Allah who inspired you and guided you up to here.

There is no way that you can update your level without the inspiration of Allah alone. And please do not forget that Allah is partial and inspired only rasools and nabis and forget you or leave you for others nope Think about it.

May Allah increase our knowledge and guide us on His path pr
mmKhan

mmkhan

Peace

nope true, we are to take the lessons from the Quranic narration/text
but the dialogue is to Muhammad. (rasul) and the reader.

Lo! We inspire thee (READER/LISTENER) (Muhammad) as We inspired Noah and the prophets
after him, as We inspired Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the tribes,
and Jesus and Job and Jonah and Aaron and Solomon, and as
We imparted unto David the Psalms;

May God bless you all

Peace bro,

Where did Muhammed came in picture? It is not there in the aayat!

Can you prove that the dialogue was to Muhammed?
If you say 'yes' then you have show me, how did Muhammed came in between?
If you say, alQuraan was given to him, then you have show me from which aayaat did you concluded this?

I appreciate folks erroneously including me with this group but
I don't belong with them!

I knew that

May Allah increase our knowledge and guide us on His path pr
mmKhan

NK

فَأَشَارَتْ إِلَيْهِ ۖ قَالُوا كَيْفَ نُكَلِّمُ مَن كَانَ فِي الْمَهْدِ صَبِيًّا

The above verse and the verses that follow are clear that this conversation did not take place when Jesus was an infant in the cradle, but when he had actually been made a prophet. The verb كَانَ in the verse makes it clear that Jesus was not a child in the cradle - A verb of the class called incomplete نَاقِصٌ means "was"

Old and learned Jews would no doubt speak of a young man who was born and brought up before their eyes as a child in the cradle as if disdaining to address one so young. Please correct me If I am wrong.

Nom_de_plume

فَأَشَارَتْ إِلَيْهِ ۖ قَالُوا كَيْفَ نُكَلِّمُ مَن كَانَ فِي الْمَهْدِ صَبِيًّا

The above verse and the verses that follow are clear that this conversation did not take place when Jesus was an infant in the cradle, but when he had actually been made a prophet. The verb كَانَ in the verse makes it clear that Jesus was not a child in the cradle - A verb of the class called incomplete نَاقِصٌ means "was"

Old and learned Jews would no doubt speak of a young man who was born and brought up before their eyes as a child in the cradle as if disdaining to address one so young. Please correct me If I am wrong.

‎1927 فاتت so came she به with him قومها folk hers تحمله taḥmiluhu/she carry him قالوا said they of ىمرىم O Maryam لقد hath assuredly جىت came thou شىىا thing of فرىا bewilderment of
‎1928 ىاخت O sister هرون Aaron ما not كان kāna/be/was ابوك father your امرا elder سو evil وما and not كانت kānat/be/was she امك mother your بغىا unchaste/immoral of
‎1929 فاشارت so points she الىه towards him قالوا said they of كىف how نكلم we talk من who كان kāna/be/is فى in المهد l-mahdi/the cradle صبىا ṣabiyyan/kid of (still breastfeeding 0 to 24 months)
‎1930 قال said انى indeed I عبد devotee الله the God اتىنى has given me الكتب the book وجعلنى and made me نبىا prophet of

NK

Nom de plume What is your point? Please elaborate more. Thanks

NK

Nom de plume Please add one more thing. Please explain to us what rules of Arabic grammar you used to translate كان kāna/be/is. I am not touching on any other topic, just interested in your translation rule of Kana. Thanks .

good_logic

Hi NK.
Nice to hear from you.

Brother , any past story ,when told by Qoran uses the past tense for "KANA", like for example

In Joseph and his brothers there are lessons for the seekers.
لَقَد كانَ فى يوسُفَ وَإِخوَتِهِ ءايٰتٌ لِلسّائِلينَ

As for the wall, it belonged to two orphan boys in the city. Under it, there was a treasure that belonged to them. Because their father was a righteous man, your Lord wanted them to grow up and attain full strength, then extract their treasure. Such is mercy from your Lord. I did none of that of my own volition. This is the explanation of the things you could not stand."
وَأَمَّا الجِدارُ فَكانَ لِغُلٰمَينِ يَتيمَينِ فِى المَدينَةِ وَكانَ تَحتَهُ كَنزٌ لَهُما وَكانَ أَبوهُما صٰلِحًا فَأَرادَ رَبُّكَ أَن يَبلُغا أَشُدَّهُما وَيَستَخرِجا كَنزَهُما رَحمَةً مِن رَبِّكَ وَما فَعَلتُهُ عَن أَمرى ذٰلِكَ تَأويلُ ما لَم تَسطِع عَلَيهِ صَبرًا

If "KANA" was in the present or future tense it will not make sense.
This is what the verse about Jesus means

She pointed to him. They said, "How can we talk with an infant in the crib?"
فَأَشارَت إِلَيهِ قالوا كَيفَ نُكَلِّمُ مَن كانَ فِى المَهدِ صَبِيًّا
(The infant) He said, "I am a servant of God. He has given me the scripture, and has appointed me a prophet.
قالَ إِنّى عَبدُ اللَّهِ ءاتىٰنِىَ الكِتٰبَ وَجَعَلَنى نَبِيًّا
...
If the case was "as adult" Then the question from her family will not be there..
Also another verse confirms this "He-Jesus- will speak to people in both "the crib and adulthood"-"Yukallimu Al Naas Fi Al Mahd Wa Kahla"-.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

NK

Hi, good logic,
Nice to hear from you too!

Thanks for your input. I fully understand the use and meaning of "Kaana" in the Quran. My question is regarding the text of the Quran and if someone can please explain to me what rules of Arabic grammar all translators have used to translate كان kāna/be/is in this verse. Whereas the original meaning of the word is "was". I know there are grammar rules to using "Kaana", meaning "is", but one can not apply them to this verse. I might be wrong, therefore, I have asked this question.

I can explain the other verses where God said, "Jesus- will speak to people in both "the crib and adulthood", but I am focusing purely on the text of the verse.
Thanks

NK

فَأَشارَت إِلَيهِ قالوا كَيفَ نُكَلِّمُ مَن كانَ فِى المَهدِ صَبِيًّا

My point is we can not translate the above verse into the present tense. Due to a verb كانَ we have no other choice but to translate it into the past tense. I have no problem accepting it that Jesus spoke in the cradle as a child, however, the Arabic text won't let this meaning. Therefore, I asked the question of how people translate it into the present tense.

I translate the above verse as

But she pointed to him. They said How should we speak to one who was a child in the cradle?

good_logic

Peace NK.
Thanks for explaining .
I get you..

But it cannot be translated into the present or future tense if the story is in the past anyway. what difference does saying" how can we speak to an infant who was in a crib" or just saying "how can we speak to an infant in a crib" make? If the infant spoke from the crib.

Unless one assumes the speech from the infant comes much later, the meaning is the same.
I thought the intent of the question was " does the infant speak from the crib or not"?
Thank you.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

Nom_de_plume

Nom de plume Please add one more thing. Please explain to us what rules of Arabic grammar you used to translate كان kāna/be/is. I am not touching on any other topic, just interested in your translation rule of Kana. Thanks .

peace, always "be" using context to translate as is/was/were, etc.

210 كانوا kānū/be (were) they of
234 وكان wakāna/and be (was/became)
236 كانا kānā/be (were) dual
294 كانت kānat/be (is) she/it (feminine)
297 قل say من who كان kāna/be (is) عدوا enemy of لجبرىل to Gabriel

411 ىوصىكم instructed you (pl.) الله the God فى in اولدكم offspring yours للذكر to the male مثل similitude حظ apportion الانثىىن the females two فان so if كن kunna/be (are) (f/pl.) نسا womenfolk فوق above اثنتىن two (females) فلهن so for them (f/pl.) ثلثا third dual (2/3) ما what ترك left وان and if كانت kānat/be she وحده one (female) فلها so for her النصف the half ولابوىه and to parents two his (said person) لكل to each وحد one منهما of them dual السدس the sixth مما from what ترك left ان if كان kāna/be (is) له for him (said person) ولد offspring فان so if لم not ىكن yakun/beeth له for him (said person) ولد offspring وورثه and inherit him (said person) ابواه parents dual his (said person; if both parents alive) فلامه so to mother his (said person) الثلث the third فان so if كان kāna/be (are) له for him (said person) اخوه siblings (3+ at least one male) فلامه so to mother his (said person) السدس the sixth من from بعد after وصىه instruction (behest/last will and testament) ىوصى instructed بها in it او or دىن dept اباوكم parents yours وابنوكم and children yours لا not تدرون thou knowing اىهم which of them اقرب nearer لكم to you نفعا benefit of فرىضه an obligation من from الله the God ان indeed الله the God كان kāna/be (is) علىما knower of حكىما wisdom of

likewise from context determine age and how to translate "be" as is/was/were etc.

1927 تحمله tahmiluhu/she carry him (infant, young child, baby)
1929 من who كان kāna/be (is) فى in المهد l-mahdi/the cradle
صبىا sabiyyan/young child of (breast feeding age i.e., birth to 24 months)

3114 وفصله and separation (breastfeeding) his (said person) فى in (within <=) عامىن years two
4615 وحمله and pregnancy his وفصله and separation his ثلثون thirty شهرا lunar cycles of
inequality equation e.g., gestation period plus weaning time = 30 lunar cycles

if pregnancy 6 months then weaning time = 24 months
if pregnancy 8 months then weaning time = 22 months
if pregnancy 10 months then weaning time = 20 months

likewise use dictionaries or hadith for word meanings etc.

Narrated `Umar bin Al-Khattab
and behold, a woman amongst them was milking her breasts to feed and whenever she found a child amongst the captives, she took it over her chest and nursed it (she had lost her child but later she found him)

حَدَّثَنَا ابْنُ أَبِي مَرْيَمَ، حَدَّثَنَا أَبُو غَسَّانَ، قَالَ حَدَّثَنِي زَيْدُ بْنُ أَسْلَمَ، عَنْ أَبِيهِ، عَنْ عُمَرَ بْنِ الْخَطَّابِ ـ رضى الله عنه ـ قَدِمَ عَلَى النَّبِيِّ صلى الله عليه وسلم سَبْىٌ، فَإِذَا امْرَأَةٌ مِنَ السَّبْىِ قَدْ تَحْلُبُ ثَدْيَهَا تَسْقِي، إِذَا وَجَدَتْ صَبِيًّا فِي السَّبْىِ أَخَذَتْهُ فَأَلْصَقَتْهُ بِبَطْنِهَا وَأَرْضَعَتْهُ، فَقَالَ لَنَا النَّبِيُّ صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏"‏ أَتَرَوْنَ هَذِهِ طَارِحَةً وَلَدَهَا فِي النَّارِ ‏"‏‏.‏ قُلْنَا لاَ وَهْىَ تَقْدِرُ عَلَى أَنْ لاَ تَطْرَحَهُ‏.‏ فَقَالَ ‏"‏ اللَّهُ أَرْحَمُ بِعِبَادِهِ مِنْ هَذِهِ بِوَلَدِهَا ‏"‏‏.‏

Reference Sahih al-Bukhari 5999
In-book reference Book 78, Hadith 30
USC-MSA web (English) reference Vol. 8, Book 73, Hadith 28