Hafs & Warsh Quran prints, variants in texts, please post your best examples
-
Peace hafeez kazi, you've written a whole essay here.
I need to clarify some points, before I even begin to seriously consider what you've posted.
You said "my nonsense bible", yet allah speaks rather highly of the bible, are you aware of this? Surah 543 & 547, allah doesn't see a problem with the bible, but you do, are you better then allah?
Can you explain why Christians are supposed to judge by the bible in Surah 547?
Can you explain why Jews are told to judge by the Torah, (Pentateuch, 5 Books of Moses) in Surah 543?
Most of what you've posted, comes from the Torah, which allah commands both you and me to judge by, so if your serious, why would you attack, the very book that allah praises?
In other words allah has done me a huge favour here by rebuking and refuting every letter you've just typed.
Surah 543, this is your allah speaking here,"And how can they come to you for judgment, when they have the Torah, in it (FIHA) is allahs judgment, yet they turn away, such are NOT BELIEVERS"
So my question is, is strangely, exactly what allah is saying.
Why are you coming to me (nonmushrik) for judgment, when you have the Torah? In that torah is your allahs judgment.
Do you really want to attack allahs judgment, this proves, by allahs standards, your actually a kafir, not my words, but your allahs
Do you want to proceed hafeez kazi?
-
The "Torah" is just a minuscule part of the Biblical Old Testament. It is the instructions on how the Children of Israel are supposed to live their lives based on two stone tablets and no more and kept in the 'Ark of the Covenant' which appears long gone. The first stone tablet is said to contain 5 statutes on each side wheras the second contains supplementary information such as "eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth...", i.e. an equivalent punishment based on the crime.
That was the revelation to Moses which was straightly GOD's words, i.e. very brief revelation with a set of guidelines. As per Quran Moses is seen being addressed by GOD saying "I am with you as long as you uphold the guidance".
The 'Ten Commandments' are slighly corrupted in their form in the OT so it might be misunderstood, but Jesus fortunately elaborates upon them again roughly 2000 years ago. Jesus did not change anything as per himself, but he gave light to the old decree through his elaboration which is his Gospel. The Commandments is clearly a set of recommended guidelines for spiritual growth.
Salaam
-
Peace NONMUSHRIK
Quran never spoke of the present written old testament and new testament. It spoke about TORAH and INJEEL. Produce the original TORAH and INJEEL in the ORIGINAL language (not translated and written by men LUKES/JAMES/MATHEWS etc) then I will follow what the Quran commands.
If your Bible is authored by GOD then how HE committed blunders. I can post hundreds of such nonsense.
I told you that you convince me that your present Bible is authored by GOD then I will abandon the Quran and follow your Bible. But I am sure you will miserably fail in this attempt.
No follower of Quran will ever follow a man written book.
Thanks
-
http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/046.%20Al%20Ahqaaf/Temp%2001%2046.04%20i.gif
http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/046.%20Al%20Ahqaaf/Temp%2001%2046.04%20ii.gif
http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/046.%20Al%20Ahqaaf/Temp%2001%2046.04%20iii.gifYou people come to me with a Book which Allah the Exalted sent earlier in time before this Grand Qur'aan.
Or you people bring to me tangible evidences-traces which are verifiable part of knowledge;
If you were truthful in what you said-keep saying".
Allah the Exalted through the Elevated Universal Messenger has laid down the criterion of truth; how to define and identify truth; the roles that revealed and acquired knowledge play; in respect of both relative and absolute truths. Relative truth is a reality with reference/relation to time and space, and the absolute reality is not bound within specific, or affected by time and space; it is universal. The criterion of determining truth is the Book of Allah the Exalted, documental evidence about a relative truth created at the time under study; and the tangible traces that can be subjected to test and verification as part of knowledge.
People keep communicating frivolous, mythical and fascinating assertions. The burden of proof of its truthfulness is upon the person, scholar, clergyman who asserts it; and upon those who repeat and propagate or plagiarize it. They need to be asked to quote . In case they adopt "selective inattention"-famous technique of Psychological Manipulators and purposely decide not to respond, one must conclude accordingly what Allah the Exalted has given verdict about such people
- Grand Qur'aan Burhaan The Truth-bearer Primary Source of Information and Evidence.
-
Peace of The Lord Jesus Christ on you all
Wakas, if your position is that the Quran is not preserved in a sense of it being 1 text, 1 print, 1 revelatory book, and you accept that it's the "message" which counts, I guess that's your position, I'm not attacking you for that.
The only reason I personally don't accept that is because "LAHU" in Surah 159, is singular, either the "book" is singular or the "message is singular, which it's not.
For example, were those with a prophet "fought, QATAL" as in Hafs Surah 3146, or we're they "killed, QUTIL" as in Warsh Surah 3146? Either way, neither the text or the message is one here, to much doubt for me to claim either text or message as preserved.
I think you can see where I'm coming from, I have no issue with you or anyone else, so I'm sorry if I offended you, or anyone else.
Anyone actually reading what I'm saying, should see, I'm not lying, or being deceptive, I speak with proof and logic.
-
Peace of The Lord Jesus Christ on you all
Javalatte and hafeez kazi, can you clarify something for me please?
Surah 543, Surah 547, Surah 568, Surah 7157 & Surah 616, all related to the people of the book.
What meanings did these verses have in the time of muhammad, in other words, when muhammad is reciting these verses to his contemporaries, what did they understand from these?
I'm understanding both of you don't believe this is taking about the Jewish "Torah" and the Christian "Injeel" which they had in their hands at muhammads time.
So what are the people of the book being told to judge by, and in which book is muhammad found written "MAKTUBAN" in Surah 7157?
Similarly how should the world today, and people who come in the future, who hear these 5 verses being recited today understand these?
Thank you, I await a reply.
-
And how they Jews appoint you the Messenger as Judge?
Take note, the Tor'aat is available with them;
The command of Allah the Exalted is written within it.
Afterwards despite this Command they turn away;
And they are the people who are certainly not the believers.All meals were permissible for the posterity of Iesra'eel .
Except that which Iesraa'eel had forbidden upon his self in the times before Tor'aat were descended.
You the Messenger ask them "Thereby, to substantiate your assertion you come to me with At'Tor'aat, thereat, you read therein if you people were who express truthfully."Original was available in those days. They never produced the Original. Why?
-
You the Messenger pronounce "O you the people of the Book! You have not been upon a standpoint of anything concrete;
You will be so until you people might uprightly uphold the At-Tor'aat and Al-In'jeel, and uphold that Grand Qur'aan which has been compactly relayed towards you by your Sustainer Lord.
Be aware; it is certain that it Grand Qur'aan; which has since been communicated to you the Messenger by your Sustainer Lord, will augment the majority of them in brimming out of bounds and disbelief.
Therefore, you should not feel sorry and grief for the people who are deliberate and persistent deniers. -
Peace NON MUSHRIK
So what are the people of the book being told to judge by, and in which book is muhammad found written "MAKTUBAN" in Surah 7157?
Those who follow the apostle, the unlettered prophet. Whom they find written down with them in the Taurat and the Injil; he biddeth them to the seemly and prohibiteth unto them the unseemly, alloweth unto them things clean and forbiddeth unto them things unclean and relieveth them of their burthen and the shackles which have been upon them. Those who believe in him and side with him and succour him and follow the light which hath been sent down with him; those they shall fare well.
The same Taurat nd Injeel which I am asking you to produce in its original language, which you can't. Instead of breaking your heads in the Hafs and Warsh version of the QURAN look for the original Taurat and Injeel and find the name/description of the prophet therein.
Once you find your original Taurat and Injeel all your queries will be solved. Only then you will realize that you have been misguided for centuries by those who wrote your Torah and Bible.
Thanks
-
Peace hafeez, I need some clarification please,
So, are you saying at muhammads time, the Jews and Christians had the ORIGINAL revealed Torah and Gospel? I believe your saying today though they don't exist.
I suggest you do some detailed, authentic research, at least the "Septuagint" and see what educated historians say. These texts predate both muhammad and Jesus Christ, from around 3rd century BCE! Praise God, that's what we read today.
So basically what your saying is, allah is commanding the people of the book of today, to judge by an original Torah and Gospel, that doesn't exist? Even though history is against you?
Your also saying that allah is commanding us to judge by and look for muhammad (7157) in scripture that doesn't exist today?
Brother, can you see how illogical this is?
Mazhar, you believe that at muhammads time they had the original, thank you, but you don't believe they exist today correct?
So, mazhar, same points as presented to hafeez, what meaning do these 5 Surahs have today for the people of the book? Please can you clarify your position?
543, 547, 568, 7157 & 616
Thank you.
-
The Old Testament was not finished writing on until the first millennium AD. The version you have in print. Even though dealing with old events it was yet modified.
Quran tells people that they may judge by the Torah which was the revelation of the Mosaic decree as we call it, the "Ten Commandments". Anyone who adheres to an Abrahimic faith highlighting has the same foundation of rules, even if it is Torah, Gospel or Quran.
Salaam
-
Mazhar, you believe that at muhammads time they had the original, thank you, but you don't believe they exist today correct?
So, mazhar, same points as presented to hafeez, what meaning do these 5 Surahs have today for the people of the book? Please can you clarify your position?
Ease alahissalm is in absolute peace, our respect, reverence, and salute to him all the time.
Have you read the link I gave earlier about what is termed as Primary Evidence?
In legal parlance too the Primary Evidence prevails in a court of law.Grand Qur'aanhttp//www.haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Tabweeb%20Part%202/001.%20Roots%20originating%20in%20Surat%20002/2.111/349.%20Buthanakum%20Ba%20Ra%20Haa%20Noon/2.gif The Truth-bearer Primary Source of Information and Evidence.
The Truth-bearer Primary Source of Information and Evidence.
http//www.haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/028.%20Al%20Qasas/28.49p.gif
http//www.haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/028.%20Al%20Qasas/28.49pp.gif
http//www.haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.%20Tabweeb/0007.%20Tabe%20Ta%20Ba%20Ain/77.gif
http//www.haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/2.23h.gifYou the Messenger ask them "Thereby, to substantiate your assertion, you people come to me with a book received from Allah the Exalted which is a better guide than those two Torat and Qur'aan;
I will make myself literally follow that;
if you people are truthful in your assertions to people"Can anybody be more fair than this?
Primary source and evidence for an irrefutable statement of truth is the Book of Allah the Exalted in its original text. However, "In the study of history as an academic discipline, a primary source (also called original source or evidence) is an artifact, a document, a recording, or other source of information that was created at the time under study. It serves as an original source of information about the topic. Similar definitions are used in library science, and other areas of scholarship.
http//www.haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/028.%20Al%20Qasas/28.50.gif
Thereby, should they purposely decide not to respond to you thereat, conclusively know that they uninterruptedly follow only their desires, conjectures and fascinations.
And who is more astray than he who followed his selfish lusts and myths on the ground other than the Guidance-Book received from Allah the Exalted?
Indeed, Allah the Exalted does not guide, against their will-considered decision, those who are mischievous-distorters-Substituter of facts with conjectures-myths-concocted stories.
-
So, mazhar, same points as presented to hafeez, what meaning do these 5 Surahs have today for the people of the book? Please can you clarify your position?
543, 547, 568, 7157 & 616
Salamun alaika,
It seems you have not yet critically read the Grand Qur'aan. One of its epithet is http//www.haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Tabweeb%20Part%202/123.%20Al%20Haqqo%20Hi%20Qaaf%20Qaaf%20fact/1.gif
It is infallible doctrine for all times, audience will keep changing since they are not immortals.
The fundamental characteristics that render and earn for a book the title of great book include; validity and reliability of its contents. In timeline, we are always surrounded by information and to know which source to trust is not always an easy proposition. The ability to evaluate the credibility of information is the most important skill for success. Validity and reliability of a book is the primary and the foremost concern of a critical reader and searcher for the truth. Except Grand Qur'aan, presently no book in its body has addressed such concerns of a reader. The parameters, criteria for evaluating the validity and reliability of a book is that its contents must be absolutely void of psychologically disconcerting suspicious, conjectural, whimsical, conflicting, un-certain, illusory, unsubstantiated, biased and opinionated matter. These features grant a book the credentials of infinite validity and reliability. Conversely, we can say that only such book can be credited as valid and reliable which has in its miscellany nothing but infallible truths whose veracity can stand the accuracy test in timeline. In Arabic, this fact about the book is rendered in succinct and explicit manner by the epithet
http//www.haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Tabweeb%20Part%202/123.%20Al%20Haqqo%20Hi%20Qaaf%20Qaaf%20fact/1.gif
That revelation the Qur'aan is the Infallible Doctrine-Discourse;
Knowledge is primarily divided into two branches; knowledge of things/matter and what happened-was talked about by the people; their dialogues, habits and acts in the past. The knowledge about the matter is verifiable in time and space. Anything said by anyone or a book regarding physical matters could be subjected to verification in time and space about its truth to an exact detail. If we find the words of a book relating to physical matters, written earlier in time, as true, factually and materially correct in all respects then we will have to believe too, in those statements of the Book which narrate some events/dialogues between people of past/historical statements. The falsification test of any book/statement could be the physical one. The facts mentioned in the Qur'aan about the Universe and human body are in itself the falsification test of Grand Qur'aan in the entire timeline.
Grand Qur'aan has thus provided the mechanism of testability of its validity and reliability. After test, the validity and reliability attains the optimum status of absolute conviction and satisfaction
Grand Qur'aan The Infallible Doctrine-Discourse of Reality-Profitability and substance of permanence
-
I was a former quranist...
This Hafs & Warsh issue is 1 of my top 10 reasons why I left Islam
From a Sunni perspective, they accept both transmissions as "SAHIH", Quran verses and Hadith are both graded in the Sunni religion, based on riwayah, isnad etc...
The fact is, basically the grand mufti of Saudi,...
confused
I didn't bother replying to noon, because it's mere conjecture, he's having to decide himself what the Quran means, and put his own mind into it, because he can't accept that maybe the quran is false. I'm not attacking you noon, it's only because wakas bought you up.
Peace, you didn't reply since it was clearly shown how it's written hence case dismissed.
3126 ... the god he the ample
3515 ... and the god he the ample
carbon-14 dating researchers concluded > 95 % originated 649-675 CE
http//oi62.tinypic.com/280lfzo.jpg
5724 ... the god he the ample
606 ... the god he the ample
-
First off, apologies for resurrecting this old post, but truly the messages shared within this thread are amazingly thought-provoking. What I'm writing here is based upon my own spiritual journey - I am not God's (I am using this term so that everyone understands me) word. Thank you all for helping me evolve.
The diverse opinions laid out here are the irrefutable exposition of why not one people will ever come to a mutual agreement in terms of religion; it is indeed an eternally-bound recurring debate.
The main reasons for these continuous disagreements are Cultural and societal conditioning, the deep effect of emotions such as fear and blind faith/love, scientific ignorance as well as intellectual biases. This is extremely interesting because these same views were held by people before us, and will be held by people after us.
Humans will pray for truth, but then stay in the same paradigm because they cannot defeat their innate and basic human condition.Everything always works out. So be it.
True enlightenment is when one destroys correlation; True enlightenment is to not be affected by basic emotions (i.e. fear of blasphemy, attachment to past or present seemingly-pure religious-connection); True enlightenment is to lose any cultural / familial / societal condition and lose every pre-conceived notion of what is and what is not ; True enlightenment is to be extremely honest with oneself; True enlightenment is trusting and having faith in your honesty and where it will lead to.
Everything will always work out.
Man does not find truth with science. Man does not find truth with prayer. Man does not find truth with meditation. Man does not find truth with contemplation. Man does not find truth with research. Man does not find truth with study. Man does not find truth with the mind. Man does not find truth with the heart. Man does not find truth with the soul.
Everything always works out; our will determines in which way it will work out.
Man finds truth with everything. Truth fills the heart with relief and frees the mind of questioning forever. This understanding proves its veracity both with feeling which can never be humanly expressed and by a materialization of and physical / spiritual expression of said-truth. Man acquires then an absolute, life-long achievement of a pure unaltered truth.
But everything always works out.
God is One. The One is God. God is all of the entities ever mentioned in scriptures that have passed and will come to pass. In truth, Man must understand that Truth will never be altered, it is and will always be the same; the truth of the Old Testament, the truth of the New Testament, the truth of the Qu'ran, the truth of the Sutras, the truth of the Tao and all of the unmentioned scriptures.
Once Man understands that, Man needs then to understand that The Tao has been altered, the Sutras have been altered, The Old Testament has been altered, the New Testament has been altered, the Qu'ran has equally been altered. Scriptures come down to different people at different times, this is why for the unexperienced eye they are seemingly different. Scriptures will furthermore never be immune to alteration, for Man is perverted.
From then on, smaller details become explicit. Man created religion. Man created then hierarchy within religion. Man created ritual. Religion is not truth and truth will never be Religion. Religion can bring Truth, as Truth is Within religion. But religion disguises Truth and mixes it with Human weaknesses (explained above).
What is immune to anything is the Truth within and that same truth we find everywhere. With or without scripture we find that same truth. And everything will always work out, and So be it.
There are levels of enlightenment or heaven - whatever you want to call it. The basics of Truth such as good-heartedness will get you there; but the deeper Man digs, the more Understanding Man will get and the closer Man will get to The Truth.We will never have all of the answers - Even then, everything will always work out, and So be it and may understanding and faith be bestowed upon those who Believe Honestly. Beloved Men, you are going on a journey a very special journey do have a pleasant journey do.