On intuition and false prophets
-
Yeah he has a good message to give.
Thanks for agreeing ) MoF does work hard to refine what he is learning himself.
Peace.
-
I have problems with this parable. There is something fishy about it. I suspect the entire story of Adam and Eve, parable or not, to be a purely man-made story, to fill in the gaps where humans are unable to understand, such as why there exists a separation between them and the Source in the first place, and how it was human beings' fault for it that time.
Peace.
I take the whole story to be a demonstration of Satan (which I mention in the Shaytan and Anger thread in the general forum) and what humans are in for, more than there being any real separation between humans and God.
-
The mainstream versions of the Qur'an seem to describe a situation where sexual intercourse for pleasure exists rather than for procreation only.
It describes spouses as a mutual comfort and garments for one another, and talks about having intercourse with your wives with no implication of children related to it, such as the permission to have sexual intercourse during Ramadan.
I have trouble with the mainstream version of the Quran. That version also talks about allowance for taking multiple wives. So basically under some circumstances, a man can have multiple women providing him with comfort and as sources of garments. Makes me partly wish I was a man. Would have been temptation enough to marry a widow or something along with my original wife, so I can experience having multiple garments and sources of pleasure this way.
Normal people are supposed to recoil at what I wrote above. And on top it is clearly precisely written that it is forbidden for a woman to do the same. Kind of puts female chastity and faithfulness above that of a man's, right? Even though both have the exact same need for faithfulness and chastity from each other? And what's with that mainstream version's idea of protecting and safeguarding women through marrying them in multiple numbers? Couldn't more alternatives have been mentioned just as precisely instead?
Bunch of ancient ideas written by ancient men. And then daring to call this mainstream version of Quran as "timeless". Well, if societies decide to become more matriarchal, then the idea of men needing protection and safety by having multiple co-husbands with one wife would be just as valid.
Peace.
-
I have trouble with the mainstream version of the Quran. That version also talks about allowance for taking multiple wives. So basically under some circumstances, a man can have multiple women providing him with comfort and as sources of garments. Makes me partly wish I was a man. Would have been temptation enough to marry a widow or something along with my original wife, so I can experience having multiple garments and sources of pleasure this way.
Normal people are supposed to recoil at what I wrote above. And on top it is clearly precisely written that it is forbidden for a woman to do the same. Kind of puts female chastity and faithfulness above that of a man's, right? Even though both have the exact same need for faithfulness and chastity from each other? And what's with that mainstream version's idea of protecting and safeguarding women through marrying them in multiple numbers? Couldn't more alternatives have been mentioned just as precisely instead?
Bunch of ancient ideas written by ancient men. And then daring to call this mainstream version of Quran as "timeless". Well, if societies decide to become more matriarchal, then the idea of men needing protection and safety by having multiple co-husbands with one wife would be just as valid.
Peace.
I don't find that the Qur'an gives permission for multiple wives really. I think it says "you'll never be able to treat them equally, so take one".
-
The pervert seems to be stuck @M0F!
Help her "separate the spirit from the flesh" dude!
I wouldn't recommend the shortest route to your "goal" tho!lol I thought you were calling me "the pervert" for a second.
Is Samira somehow famous for some perverted thing?
-
Hello Samira,
In other words you seem somewhat disappointed that the Quran does not explicitly forbid sex for pleasure (if it was forbidden, female and male genital mutilation would be totally justified). Thats why you seem to fill in with your words to make it sound that sex for pleasure would land you in Gehennom. And you are probably against birth control as well, seeing the emphasis on family alongside sex. I am just saying, I am sorry if I sound offensive in any way.
It is not sex for pleasure that causes you to end up in endless cycles of Gehennom. It is not becoming a good enough "fruit" that the Sustainer will pick you out that will.
I have however not said that sex for pleasure is forbidden, but it is not your primary objective and there is danger in doing what makes your hormones flow and activate primate instinctive drives. Quran tells a person to abstain from the world and that includes sex as well which is unnecessary if one has the spiritual strength to do this. If the Quran says one should abstain from worldly indulgence then sex is included in that, but it is just a friendly advice just like all words of Quran is.
It is not my opinion, it is the Sustainer's and because this is a contradicition we live in and the body and the world meant as a trap.
The Sustainer does not really forbid anything dogmatically nor do I, but I am posting recommendations.
if it was forbidden, female and male genital mutilation would be totally justified
Not at all. Even if it would theoretically be forbidden, this kind of act is an abomination.
And the Sustainer is explicit that those recommendations or decrees can never be enforced dogmatically, but it is the wise man or woman who follows them and I said I was disappointed because I have enlightened you so much, however I am not more than your teacher. It is up to the student to do what they like with the words, although I feel sad that the student failed the exam. (parable)
I do not understand where you get forbidden from like that I am a zealous or dogmatic cleric. The real word for the lines of the "Ten Commandments" are synonymous with stone in Arabic (Hajjarateh) and implies that something is a prevention or block to not cause a person to do a certain thing, but you can still walk around a stone if you like. The same is true for the Sustainer's advice.
What is wrong with sex with full pleasure with a partner with whom you share love, compassion, security and understanding?
It is not wrong per se and you can have sex with your bondmate that you have become one body with, but one must know sex is an instinctive drive and such is among what should be suppressed for a maximum spiritual ascension. You should not do something when the body tells you to do it but because you do something from your spirit when you see it fit. That is not falling victim to satan.
You misunderstand me. You misunderstand the whole point. The real question is not really just about sex here, but it is about worldly indulgence at all. The one who cannot abstain they are victim of their instincts, but one can be slave to it on different levels. Some give in totally, some have mastered partially.
And you are probably against birth control as well
This is actually irrelevant since it is the giving in to bodily signals that matters, but certainly when you use birth control you are intentionally doing it for pleasure. I have however used birth control myself because I do not want to end up with an army of kids. Lately it is my wife who likes to do this and I do it because I have to. I have my drive under control.
Men and women need to learn that one can love each other through the spirit with something other than sex. The sex reinforces the attachment to body and not spirit.
Um, this point needs to be treaded on cautiously as well. I am still figuring things out, so I cannot comment for now properly on it.
This is also why you have failed to understand even a tiny word of what I have ever said to you. The world is a deception and was not meant to be enjoyed. It a growing ground for a spiritual being with a body as a distraction.
If you understood this then you would not argue about this sex thing.
Be well
-
Because the "Sustainer" likes to grow a kind of "super-race".
Gibberish,
all of it.
In your opinion it can be.
One day you will be familiar with the fact it was not gibberish.
Be well Mr. Hicham
-
Hello Samira,
It is not sex for pleasure that causes you to end up in endless cycles of Gehennom. It is not becoming a good enough "fruit" that the Sustainer will pick you out that will.
I have however not said that sex for pleasure is forbidden, but it is not your primary objective and there is danger in doing what makes your hormones flow and activate primate instinctive drives. Quran tells a person to abstain from the world and that includes sex as well which is unnecessary if one has the spiritual strength to do this. If the Quran says one should abstain from worldly indulgence then sex is included in that, but it is just a friendly advice just like all words of Quran is.
It is not my opinion, it is the Sustainer's and because this is a contradicition we live in and the body and the world meant as a trap.
The Sustainer does not really forbid anything dogmatically nor do I, but I am posting recommendations.
Not at all. Even if it would theoretically be forbidden, this kind of act is an abomination.
And the Sustainer is explicit that those recommendations or decrees can never be enforced dogmatically, but it is the wise man or woman who follows them and I said I was disappointed because I have enlightened you so much, however I am not more than your teacher. It is up to the student to do what they like with the words, although I feel sad that the student failed the exam. (parable)
I do not understand where you get forbidden from like that I am a zealous or dogmatic cleric. The real word for the lines of the "Ten Commandments" are synonymous with stone in Arabic (Hajjarateh) and implies that something is a prevention or block to not cause a person to do a certain thing, but you can still walk around a stone if you like. The same is true for the Sustainer's advice.
It is not wrong per se and you can have sex with your bondmate that you have become one body with, but one must know sex is an instinctive drive and such is among what should be suppressed for a maximum spiritual ascension. You should not do something when the body tells you to do it but because you do something from your spirit when you see it fit. That is not falling victim to satan.
You misunderstand me. You misunderstand the whole point. The real question is not really just about sex here, but it is about worldly indulgence at all. The one who cannot abstain they are victim of their instincts, but one can be slave to it on different levels. Some give in totally, some have mastered partially.
This is actually irrelevant since it is the giving in to bodily signals that matters, but certainly when you use birth control you are intentionally doing it for pleasure. I have however used birth control myself because I do not want to end up with an army of kids. Lately it is my wife who likes to do this and I do it because I have to. I have my drive under control.
Men and women need to learn that one can love each other through the spirit with something other than sex. The sex reinforces the attachment to body and not spirit.
This is also why you have failed to understand even a tiny word of what I have ever said to you. The world is a deception and was not meant to be enjoyed. It a growing ground for a spiritual being with a body as a distraction.
If you understood this then you would not argue about this sex thing.
Be well
I believe in acting strategically and not just following whims. I tell people that their thoughts should flow freely, and be considered like the weather, influenced by various things like chemicals, but they should not act on them, they should act according to careful strategy. This is because people who follow their whims without any consideration for rightness or compassion or justice often do great evil, they cheat, they end up having random sex, they often don't even realize they are following their animal chemical impulses and often they even justify it and it ends up in more suffering for them and bad decisions.
I've been saying this stuff for years, but nobody listens to me and more and more people keep following their whims and reacting to whatever things come to their mind and doing whatever they feel like at the moment, no impulse control, to their own detriment, and it makes them hateful people as well who are totally untrustworthy scum.
-
In your opinion it can be.
One day you will be familiar with the fact it was not gibberish.
Be well Mr. Hicham
I hope to be foremost of the super-race, and I don't mind at all if Man of Faith is with me in that regard. In the meantime, I'll try my best to be foremost of the super-race and hope that I am transformed more and more into that ideal of supreme excellence, loved by all the worlds and God and myself.
-
Hello Freedomstands,
You'll all have ample amounts of time to discuss this in hell together (along with me?)
There is no hell to discuss things. The hell is here in this very world. Gehennom is a word for that one is attached to the flesh.
I believe in acting strategically and not just following whims. I tell people that their thoughts should flow freely, and be considered like the weather, influenced by various things like chemicals, but they should not act on them, they should act according to careful strategy. This is because people who follow their whims without any consideration for rightness or compassion or justice often do great evil, they cheat, they end up having random sex, they often don't even realize they are following their animal chemical impulses and often they even justify it and it ends up in more suffering for them and bad decisions.
Exactly. People do not understand that much of what they do in their lives was actually not their conscious decision, but it was the body and satan (instinctive drive) that caused them to do it. Sex is one example of this and that is why I propagate this thing about sex for pleasure. But sex is not forbidden by the Sustainer. This is just a method and advice for maximum spiritual growth.
The Sustainer does not tell everyone to become monks or nuns. That is an individual decision.
I hope to be foremost of the super-race, and I don't mind at all if Man of Faith is with me in that regard. In the meantime, I'll try my best to be foremost of the super-race and hope that I am transformed more and more into that ideal of supreme excellence, loved by all the worlds and God and myself.
In that case there is lot of improvement to be done. You cannot look down on other people, even if they are "lifeless" (al-mowt), amongst other things.
Be well
-
The pervert seems to be stuck @M0F!
Help her "separate the spirit from the flesh" dude!
I wouldn't recommend the shortest route to your "goal" tho!That you too would do if you were the slightest wise.
be well
-
Hello Freedomstands,
There is no hell to discuss things. The hell is here in this very world. Gehennom is a word for that one is attached to the flesh.
Exactly. People do not understand that much of what they do in their lives was actually not their conscious decision, but it was the body and satan (instinctive drive) that caused them to do it. Sex is one example of this and that is why I propagate this thing about sex for pleasure. But sex is not forbidden by the Sustainer. This is just a method and advice for maximum spiritual growth.
The Sustainer does not tell everyone to become monks or nuns. That is an individual decision.
In that case there is lot of improvement to be done. You cannot look down on other people, even if they are "lifeless" (al-mowt), amongst other things.
Be well
Lots of work to be done, but by constantly working on improving and being the best we can possibly be, we might just make it! Even if we don't, there is nothing better for us than the struggle, though we may despise it, it is not as despicable as those who behave otherwise.
-
Hello again Samira,
I have problems with this parable. There is something fishy about it. I suspect the entire story of Adam and Eve, parable or not, to be a purely man-made story, to fill in the gaps where humans are unable to understand, such as why there exists a separation between them and the Source in the first place, and how it was human beings' fault for it that time.
What kind of problem do you have with the story. It is a parable and it is not literally like that. Of course man cannot understand because the Sustainer is like one kind of singularity in which the existence is contained.
You did not read my clarification of the parable or you would see it was never any human's fault but it was an intentional test environment and the "fruit" is indulgence in the world for fruit symbolizes desire due to its sugary contents. Mankind, their spirit, was to be put inside of this "husk". And you see it everywhere you look, people stuck in their bodies. The spirit does not escape just because a person dies but it keeps existing even then. The point here, the spirit which used to be stuck in the body when it dies and is successful and considered a "good fruit" will be picked up by the Sustainer and not having to experience Gehennom which is attachment to the flesh.
Be well
-
Man of Faith,
Please do not think that due to some disagreements I did not learn or benefit from you or something. I did, greatly, and you were the one who managed to pull me out of the mainstream version of Islam (where I felt trapped) and to seeing new visions of what is possible. So I am already immensely grateful to you for that. Also I have said several times here here how much I appreciated a number of your ideas and perspectives.
Its difficult to figure out things clearly in this deeply complex world. Which is why I am always on the seek for newer and better perspectives, which would help create a good and peaceful living for humans both in this world and also after death. So yeah.
Peace.
-
I don't find that the Qur'an gives permission for multiple wives really. I think it says "you'll never be able to treat them equally, so take one".
Common perspective given by people. In that case, the all-rounder question why did the prophet of the Quran have multiple wives? Check verses 3350 and 661-5. Makes no sense right?
And whats with this fairness and justice stuff? Is that why we get married in the first place? Different civilizations have different reasons for marriage. The mainstream version of the Quran gives one perspective on polygyny as the only other type of union besides monogamy and keeps it timeless. Shouldn't the Quran at least get updated every few centuries to keep up with the rapidly changing civilization?
Peace.
-
Common perspective given by people. In that case, the all-rounder question why did the prophet of the Quran have multiple wives? Check verses 3350 and 661-5. Makes no sense right?
And whats with this fairness and justice stuff? Is that why we get married in the first place? Different civilizations have different reasons for marriage. The mainstream version of the Quran gives one perspective on polygyny as the only other type of union besides monogamy and keeps it timeless. Shouldn't the Quran at least get updated every few centuries to keep up with the rapidly changing civilization?
Peace.
If it was updated, when society says it is ok to kill children again it might then be updated to include that. The Prophet was given permission by the Qur'an to have multiple wives, some people might think its just Muhammed giving permission to himself to marry multiple wives, but they are usually imagining he is doing it for lustful reasons, which may or may not be true if any of it is true at all. Yet there are also political reasons for such things in the process of uniting the Arabian tribes and through marks of kinship as Muhammed was establishing a new system, tribe dynamic, and society.
So there may have been more at work than simply wanting sex, which is a more modern idea anyway in many respects. I don't think he was particularly hedonistic, but it was common for leaders and the people to have more than one wife. It doesn't generally work though for the average people often, especially in today's society, but if the verses of the Qur'an are read carefully it may not be that an actual 4 wives for everyone is really permitted, and its also difficult financially.
My usual question to you though is who cares?
I believe one should absolutely and completely reject the Qur'an, I don't understand why people hold on to it simply to argue about it. Throw it in the trash or give it to someone who cares! The book is absolutely worthless to some people, especially when they become absorbed with issues like this which are the least important aspects of the book. If a person is disgusted with the Qur'an they should leave it aside and forget about Islam.
-
Salamun Alaikum.
"Marriage" was not created in heaven. Those who believe that marriage ceremony originated when Adam and Eve got married in the heaven in the presence of angels and God - may need to rethink your propositions. Humans, like their predecessors, were by nature polygamous.
In the earliest hunter gatherer human societies there was no need for marriage. Humans could live in tribes, reproduce freely and the tribe would take care of the babies. In those societies the concept of marriage was absent. The earliest religions (e.g. Buddhism) in their original form also do not mandate the "marriage" ritual.
When humans settled down into agricultural society the concept of personal property ownership became important. Individual's property ownership gave the individual an assurance of certain level of quality of living. In this scenario it became important that the society knows who the parents of the kids are, so that the children can be responsibility of the parents and they can inherit from their parents. This need for the society to know the parents led to the innovation of the social ritual named "marriage". However, there was still no requirement for monogamy - virtually in all ancient societies polygamy was socially and morally acceptable. The innovation of marriage is endorsed in the first part of verse 43
43 But if you fear that you would not be able to deal equitably concerning the orphans then marry, who is agreeable for you, of the women in twos or threes or fours...
(My personal translation, cross checking is recommended.)
The evolution of the human society did not stop there. Human societies continued to become more and more complex. It was no longer enough to support the children with food and shelter during their childhood. Children needed to be nurtured and educated till their early adulthood. Spouses also needed more financial, social and emotional support from each other to navigate the complex human societies. In such changing scenario it started to become more and more difficult for a husband to deal evenly between multiple spouses. This situation is covered in the second part of verse 43
43 ...But if you fear that you would not deal evenly, then (only) one or upon whom you have confirmed authority (literally what possesses your right hand). That is closer to you not violating.
(My personal translation, cross checking is recommended.)
Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) came from a society which was in transition. The nomadic Bedouin society was getting more complex. So, it would not be a surprise that in his personal life we will see reflection of this transition.
Prophets teaching against what they themselves experienced due to prevailing social condition was not the first time in Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). Prophet Moses, who was provoked to kill an Egyptian prohibited killing. Prophet Jesus who was himself circumcised due to prevailing Jewish tradition, advised against this practice.
The marriage related verses in Qur'an give us the generic principles for all societies along with insight into the practices of earlier societies.
426 Allah intends to make clear to you and to guide you to customs of those from before you and to relent upon you. And Allah is Knowledgeable, Wise.
(My personal translation, cross checking is recommended.)
The key for us is to take the signs from Qur'an and then deciding what is appropriate for us, in our society, in our time. The key is to exercise our God gifted sense of right and wrong in our given circumstances.
2134 That was a community (which has) certainly passed away . What it earned was for it, and what you earn is for you. And you will not be asked about how they used to act.
(My personal translation, cross checking is recommended.)
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
Arman -
Anyway, it shows the mainstream translation version of the Quran is in need of editing in such parts in order to keep it up with the advancing times, where also baby's parents can be easily identified through evolving technology. In other words, this version is not at all a timeless scripture.
Peace
-
Anyway, it shows the mainstream translation version of the Quran is in need of editing in such parts in order to keep it up with the advancing times, where also baby's parents can be easily identified through evolving technology. In other words, this version is not at all a timeless scripture.
Peace
Per my reading Qur'an covers the generic understanding which can be taken as the guiding principle throughout all changing times. If a society really comes to a stage where technology has become so advanced that marriage has become redundant (we are definitely not at that stage yet), that situation too is covered by the same verse 43...
"But if you fear that you would not be able to deal equitably concerning the orphans then marry,..." i.e. marriage is mandated only if injustice is feared for the orphans.
Unlike FreedomStands I would not claim anyone "non-muslim" for failing to accept / understand Qur'an. Qur'an is not but a guidance and wise reminder. The true test of muslim is whether one has faith and acts righteously. However I do agree with him that the Qur'an only guides those who approach it with faith and respect.
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
Arman