On intuition and false prophets
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Funny that you might be talking about Man of Faith here in this particular thread entitled as it is, since many might consider Man of Faith this website's premiere "false prophet".
There sure was many false prophets too. The hypocrites who came up with the Islam people follow and the interpretation people so blindly accept.
Be well
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There sure was many false prophets too. The hypocrites who came up with the Islam people follow and the interpretation people so blindly accept.
Be well
Yeah, and maybe me too, being considered that.
Though I think the ones considered Prophets (that are considered false) are the ones that seem to be bringing something "new" and so they are rejected.
My innovations or "new" stuff is just maybe the idea of reclaiming or seizing words back to use them more effectively, in order that people don't make up other partners with God, so how I was defining the term Lucifer for example.
In your case its the interpretation work that seems "new" to people and the translations.
Since I use the mainstream translations generally, people can't say I'm inventing things, since I'm quoting the mainstream established translations.
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Funny that you might be talking about Man of Faith here in this particular thread entitled as it is, since many might consider Man of Faith this website's premiere "false prophet".
I don't think he's a "false prophet," nor a "prophet" for that matter!
Beside the hazy methodology, and the cheesy percept, ...
the tireless repetition of the same misconception/s (here and there) I find vexatious!
It is no secret that if anything is repeated sufficiently frequently it will be believed, even outright lies.SLM
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Yes hicham. And it is exactly what happened with the traditional interpretation of Quran from where you get your information.
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Yes hicham. And it is exactly what happened with the traditional interpretation of Quran from where you get your information.
Well I like several of his ideas. He made me feel less trapped regarding Islam, compared to the mainstream version of it.
Peace.
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Samira,
For someone using the same traditional interpretation and language rules his ideas are sound which shows that there is some mindworks.
Be well
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I don't rely on "traditional interpretations"!
Do traditionalists interpret 'Iblys' as hybris @M0F!?
'mr' as Mesopotamia!? 'gn' as incorporeal!? or 'lq' as suspension!? ...I rely on reason and linguistics.
You, however, rely on whatever suits your fancy.
You put your hand in your pocket. You bring out "platform" ~ then you call it RB!SLM
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I don't rely on "traditional interpretations" @M0F!
Do traditionalists interpret 'mr' as Mesopotamia!? 'Jn' as incorporeal!? or 'aleq' as suspension!? ...I rely on reason and linguistics.
Our fallible dictionaries are not authoritative at all.
SLM
But Misr was the recognized term used in those days to refer to Egypt. It means "civilization" yeah, but that is the term used in the Semitic languages of the period to refer to Egypt, not Mesopotamia which had its own word.
The Jews, speaking Hebrew and Aramaic have the same word for Egypt and recognized it as Egypt, you can check any of those dictionaries and lexicons.
The word recognized for Mesopotamia or that area was totally different.
Would God speak in some futuristic definition for words or unknown ancient ways so that the people don't recognize what is being talked about, when the Jews and the Christians, both Aramaic and Arabic and others like Hebrew and whatever all recognized a certain word Misr and Misra as referring to Egypt while another word referring to another place?
The definition of words seem to come from the definition assigned to them by people and how they are used and what they are used to refer to.
Misr was used of Egypt by the Jews and the Christians, all the Semitic language speakers before even the Qur'an, and another word was used of Mesopotamia.
If your reasoning is (and I don't know what your reasoning is), that since Mesopotamia is considered the first or one of the earliest Civilizations or "Cradle of Civilization" today and that the word Misr means that, it should be noted that the word Misr meant Egypt to the Jews even before the Qur'an, and the Qur'an seems to use terms people are familiar with at the time.
Placing the whole story of Moses in Mesopotamia makes it particularly odd that the term "Pharoah" would be used, but one could say Firon was the person's actual name, where as Pharoah seems to come from a term meaning "Big House" and Musa in Egyptian would mean "Child" which would have seemed to make sense along with the nearby sea crossing but maybe none of that is true, and generations of Jews and Christians have been looking towards Egypt and using the word Misr to refer to Egypt, and without warning the Qur'an starts using this well established word for Egypt to refer to Mesopotamia (which is mentioned in the Qur'an under another name as well, when Harut and Marut are mentioned for example).
So the Qur'an couldn't inform people that another meaning is intended and a well established word is being used to supersede other well established words for no apparent reason except that the word means civilization so is somehow more rightfully belonging to Mesopotamia?
That is like me suddenly saying Egypt to you, and I secretly mean Japan. What the heck.
So many strange things happening on this flat Earth of ours.
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But Misr was the recognized term used in those days to refer to Egypt. It means "civilization" yeah, but that is the term used in the Semitic languages of the period to refer to Egypt, not Mesopotamia which had its own word.
The Jews, speaking Hebrew and Aramaic have the same word for Egypt and recognized it as Egypt, you can check any of those dictionaries and lexicons.
The word recognized for Mesopotamia or that area was totally different.
Would God speak in some futuristic definition for words or unknown ancient ways so that the people don't recognize what is being talked about, when the Jews and the Christians, both Aramaic and Arabic and others like Hebrew and whatever all recognized a certain word Misr and Misra as referring to Egypt while another word referring to another place?
The definition of words seem to come from the definition assigned to them by people and how they are used and what they are used to refer to.
Misr was used of Egypt by the Jews and the Christians, all the Semitic language speakers before even the Qur'an, and another word was used of Mesopotamia.
If your reasoning is (and I don't know what your reasoning is), that since Mesopotamia is considered the first or one of the earliest Civilizations or "Cradle of Civilization" today and that the word Misr means that, it should be noted that the word Misr meant Egypt to the Jews even before the Qur'an, and the Qur'an seems to use terms people are familiar with at the time.
Placing the whole story of Moses in Mesopotamia makes it particularly odd that the term "Pharoah" would be used, but one could say Firon was the person's actual name, where as Pharoah seems to come from a term meaning "Big House" and Musa in Egyptian would mean "Child" which would have seemed to make sense along with the nearby sea crossing but maybe none of that is true, and generations of Jews and Christians have been looking towards Egypt and using the word Misr to refer to Egypt, and without warning the Qur'an starts using this well established word for Egypt to refer to Mesopotamia (which is mentioned in the Qur'an under another name as well, when Harut and Marut are mentioned for example).
So the Qur'an couldn't inform people that another meaning is intended and a well established word is being used to supersede other well established words for no apparent reason except that the word means civilization so is somehow more rightfully belonging to Mesopotamia?
That is like me suddenly saying Egypt to you, and I secretly mean Japan. What the heck.
So many strange things happening on this flat Earth of ours.
Sorry @FS, but I don't intend to do ur homework for you.
The learned few know well what I'm talking about.SLM
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Sorry @FS, but I don't intend to do ur homework for you.
The learned few know well what I'm talking about.SLM
lol I thought I gave good reasoning. I had some questions in there I had hoped you could answer at least.
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lol I thought I gave good reasoning. I had some questions in there I had hoped you could answer at least.
Very well!
Here's the dealI promise to waste my time refuting your invalid argument/s (point-by-point)
if you can provide positive evidence for your very first claim.Misr was the recognized term used in those days to refer to Egypt.
SLM
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Very well!
Here's the dealI promise to waste my time refuting your invalid argument/s (point-by-point)
if you can provide positive evidence for your very first claim.SLM
That Misr was recognized as the word used to refer to Egypt? What would qualify as proof of that? Its what they translate the word as in the Bible too.
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Hicham,
I don't rely on "traditional interpretations"!
Do traditionalists interpret 'Iblys' as hybris @M0F!?
'mr' as Mesopotamia!? 'gn' as incorporeal!? or 'lq' as suspension!? ...I rely on reason and linguistics.
You, however, rely on whatever suits your fancy.
You put your hand in your pocket. You bring out "platform" ~ then you call it RB!SLM
Relax from your hostility friend.
Platform was just an alternative interpretation of the word, but the word means to continually supply something to someone and this is supported by lexicons that are even over 1000 years old. Why I chose platform is because such does do a similar thing.
I meant that you rely on their system of interpretation, grammar rules and you do still interpret Quran with their fog before your eyes. No rudeness intended. But you apply much more reason and logic that many other interpreters do.
But it is not true that I interpret according to my fancy because I study these ancient lexicons. But you have to take it a little lightly when I said platform because you need to know what I meant before you just come with attacks or say that I claim the word means literally platform. I did not say the word means platform. I said it means Sustainer, but if you consider that it means something else then so be it. But I say that something that is your Sustainer that is indirectly your platform because it maintains the platform of life.
I do not interpret Ebless even as a proper noun but part of the language as a normal word in the context. If you consider it to be a name then so be it. Nothing to fight over and be unpleasant.
Do traditionalists interpret 'Iblys' as hybris @M0F!?
'mr' as Mesopotamia!? 'gn' as incorporeal!? or 'lq' as suspension!? ...I rely on reason and linguistics.
And I do really consider that you are interpreting things according to your fancy, but like I said. It is more important not to be nasty than to argue over something in an unpleasant tone.
What is your argument for interpreting 'djen' as "incorporeal"? Ancient lexicons make indications towards the "outer layer" of something, i.e. body. The invisible or non-material entity illusion is something induced by the sectarian crowd.
What is your argument for interpreting Mesr as "Mesopotamia"? The syllables appear to be somewhat off for that purpose.
What is your argument for interpreting ebless as "hybris"? Have you ever considered that it is a bit crazy that a person is called something negative as a name even if the person does something bad?
Be well
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Any corroborating evidence would do!
Wrong answer.
I don't understand your question. What would act as corroborating evidence? There are centuries before the Qur'an where Misr is used to refer to Egypt by the Semitic language speakers, I don't know what else you're looking for? My point had been that it was the word used to refer to Egypt and recognized as Egypt by the people, so the common definition and understanding for the people at the time was Egypt.
Just like today the word Japan refers to a certain place. It isn't what the Japanese call it, and if I refer to a place called Japan and I'm secretly talking about America, no one would be able to tell that unless I explained that I was switching up the word on them because of the common definition.
So what is so illogical about that? What evidence do you need for the first point, that Misr was the word for Egypt used by the Jews and Semitic languages speakers? Do you want old scriptures? What are you looking for? If someone back then would say "I am taking a trip to Misr" they meant Egypt and would be found at Egypt, not Mesopotamia, it wasn't the Muslims after the Qur'an who suddenly used the word to refer to Egypt, it was the common word for it which had been used for centuries by the Jews and Semitic language speakers.
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Freedomstands,
but one could say Firon was the person's actual name
It is true that Pharaoh is treated as a proper noun in Quran linguistically. As far as I am aware, no other civilization has had any ruler called Pharaoh other than Egypt of today. It is important to know that also the word Feroun has its root in Semitic languages. Look at two different roots
Ra-Ayn-Ya = to pasture/feed/graze, observe aright, keep (an order), rule, have regard to, tend, mindful, watch, pay attention. One who feeds flocks, shepherd. ri'ayatun - right observance. mar'an - pasture. ra'a (vb. 3) - to observe/respect, look at, listen, give ear, hearken. ra'ina - listen to us (a phrase used also for showing disrespect for the person addressed).
Fa-Ra-Ayn = to ascend, go down, overtop, surpass, branch, top of a tree, sprout, hair, consequence of a principle. Appellation of the ancient kings of Egypt and not the name of a particular king.
His name means to be the head or top.
Mesr ought to also have its root in Semitic roots since they are all descriptive words. There is no root with beginning with miim that fits the bill, but it is important to know that many times when words begin with miim that is not part of the root. One can take a look at Siin-Waw-Ra meaning high/elevated station, ascend, eminence/nobility, height. The miim may simply be "Thereof" + word as giving attribute, e.g. to say "Of eminence". During its ancient time Egypt was a force to be reckoned with in the region being strong in terms of military strength and also wealth. Also Siin-Ra-Ra could be interesting as it could refer to heart, i.e. heart of civilization.
To think Mesr is in Mesopotamia unfortunately collides with accounts of history from the Assyrians which would make it slightly problematic to place them there, because placing two powerful empires next to each other would be somewhat strange.
I think that Moses and the people went away from Pharaoh went far east into Mesopotamia and I doubt that they settled in today's Palestine/Israel because that place was occupied by a people called the Philistines which came to be the arch-nemesis of Moses' people for quite some time. Moses' people went out in the deserts of Arabia and settled down there for many years. The question is which direction they headed afterwards. For today's Israel they went back north-west and if they went into Mesopotamia they went north-east east. Of course the historical account is quite dubious in my opinion and I am researching on it even though it is halted by my progress on the reinterpretation of Quran.
Be well
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And the only known place to have had a dictator named Pharaoh who thought they were a god or on rank with the great Sustainer was this place.
Be well
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And the only known place to have had a dictator named Pharaoh who thought they were a god or on rank with the great Sustainer was this place.
Be well
Yeah, though a different word was used of the King in Egypt, and the land was called Kemet to the Egyptians in their language, they do have at least the word "pr'ah" which referred to the Great House, which might be a reference to the Dynastic Family or their Estate which was generally a Great House.
Wikipedia says "The term pharaoh ultimately was derived from a compound word represented as pr-3, written with the two biliteral hieroglyphs pr "house" and "column". It was used only in larger phrases such as smr pr-aa 'Courtier of the High House', with specific reference to the buildings of the court or palace. From the twelfth dynasty onward, the word appears in a wish formula 'Great House, may it live, prosper, and be in health', but again only with reference to the royal palace and not the person."
"The earliest instance where pr-aa is used specifically to address the ruler is in a letter to Amenhotep IV (Akhenaten), who reigned circa 1353?1336 BC, which is addressed to 'Pharaoh, all life, prosperity, and health!. During the eighteenth dynasty (16th to 14th centuries BC) the title pharaoh was employed as a reverential designation of the ruler. About the late twenty-first dynasty (10th century BC), however, instead of being used alone as before, it began to be added to the other titles before the ruler's name, and from the twenty-fifth dynasty (eighth to seventh centuries BC) it was, at least in ordinary usage, the only epithet prefixed to the royal appellative.
From the nineteenth dynasty onward pr- on its own was used as regularly as hm.f, 'Majesty'. The term, therefore, evolved from a word specifically referring to a building to a respectful designation for the ruler, particularly by the twenty-second dynasty and twenty-third dynasty."
The word for King in the Egyptian language was
"There are several Ancient Egyptian words for king nswt and ity are perhaps the most common."
http//www.ucl.ac.uk/museums-static/digitalegypt/ideology/king/what.html
Just some little factoids for people to enjoy.
It is kind of cool that in the mainstream translations of the Qur'an, the actual estate seems to be mentioned as well as one of the scenes of the events on Musa's river trip.
"The name "Haman" was not known until the decoding of Egyptian hieroglyphics in the 19th century. When the hieroglyphics were decoded, it was understood that Haman was a close helper of the Pharaoh and was "the head of the stone quarries.""
http//www.miraclesofthequran.com/historical_01.html
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Hi FreedomStands,
Personally I clearly believe that Pharaoh is a Semitic origin word. If one searches like I did for the roots they see the meaning of his name. It refers to being high or highborn. The ending 'nun' in his name is not part of the root and refers to his integrity as a person, i.e. he was highborn, probably not referring to that he was of this world but likely referring to the position as god that he believed about himself. The High House was not referring to this world, and probably why the Egyptians in their sepulchers (pyramids) made a channel through the top of the pyramid that beams of light hit the chamber where the mummified corpse of the Pharaoh was.
"The earliest instance where pr-aa is used specifically to address the ruler is in a letter to Amenhotep IV (Akhenaten), who reigned circa 1353?1336 BC, which is addressed to 'Pharaoh, all life, prosperity, and health!. During the eighteenth dynasty (16th to 14th centuries BC) the title pharaoh was employed as a reverential designation of the ruler. About the late twenty-first dynasty (10th century BC), however, instead of being used alone as before, it began to be added to the other titles before the ruler's name, and from the twenty-fifth dynasty (eighth to seventh centuries BC) it was, at least in ordinary usage, the only epithet prefixed to the royal appellative.
In my theoretical mindworks Moses lived around 1500 BC. I think the Pharaoh was called Pharaoh before it is attested in any discovered text. I have made an estimation of 28 generations (based on a traditional account) between Jesus and Abraham. The average age may have varied, but I take it that prophets in general lived healthily and long lives of about 65-75 years on average and that becomes about 2000 years meaning Abraham lived about 2000BC. Taking that into consideration, when Moses lived may very well have been in the 16th century BC like you posted in the information from historical sources.
Apparently the Pharaohs did not learn their lesson with the drowned Pharaoh and kept calling themselves Pharaoh despite that.
"The name "Haman" was not known until the decoding of Egyptian hieroglyphics in the 19th century. When the hieroglyphics were decoded, it was understood that Haman was a close helper of the Pharaoh and was "the head of the stone quarries.""
I think it is quite clear Mesr was Egypt personally.
Be well