After death
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I had been talking about that. Perhaps it is easy to understand how one might think you were "banned here".
I think I have made some errors in my statements.
www.free-minds.org is blocked/banned in the region I belong to. Not that i was banned by moderator here.
Not only the website, there are many other website blocked at my place.
I have personally no issues with this as I respect the country law and coming here does not mean I adhere to what is being said here in full.
It is only for having arguments and listen to other opinions.cheers
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Many thanks for sharing your point of view.
What you said is a possibility but no one knows for sure. It is your own interpretation. However I like to know what others think
about your view? Surely the true message of Lord can not be so vague that every one can interpret what they like.
However the topic I chose to discuss has lots of unknowns so I get your point.There is another point I want to make. Quran is the word of God and the subject of Quran is us.. humans.
So many places Quran makes claims that humans should find signs in message of God.
However would God require one to have a university degree in order to understand the real meaning of Quran?
I believe the message of Quran should be comfortably understood by an average sane person else where is the point?It doesn't say "ruh" in 8927, it says "nafs".
I don't believe there is even a soul really, in the way people imagine some kind of object or form, only the experience.
You are an experiencer, you experience information, all you are is the information you experience.
True death is non-experience, non-information.
God is not made of any information, thus it is called "returning to God".
What resumes on Judgment Day is your experience.
God can give any sort of experience to anything, can make you experience floating around as just vision, or anything. Currently you are supposedly experiencing a first person view inside a body with arms ahead of you that you can control, and maybe some legs you might not be paying attention to, unable to see your back unless you're the little girl from the exorcist.
There is no "ghost" image of a person, but God can make such a thing too. Your "self" or "nafs" is just the experience you are receiving, that limited amount of information that makes up what you are experiencing and all you are right now.
The real "soul" or "ruh" or spirit is the animation, what animates anything and everything. It is God's animating power which pervades everywhere, it animates the information you are experiencing and everything in existence, and is what you know as keeping your body alive, it is the life energy.
When the life energy leaves the body, all information reception is generally cut off because a person has no more of those senses active (or so it is thought), yet God can create any sort of experience or different stories or circumstances.
I don't necessarily think what you quoted is actually skipping Judgment Day, it just skips it in the writing, but it may be that it is skipped for some people, ultimately that isn't important, because "who cares" except as motivation to do and be good.
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I think I have made some errors in my statements.
www.free-minds.org is blocked/banned in the region I belong to. Not that i was banned by moderator here.
Not only the website, there are many other website blocked at my place.
I have personally no issues with this as I respect the country law and coming here does not mean I adhere to what is being said here in full.
It is only for having arguments and listen to other opinions.cheers
What country is it that you are in which has this website blocked?
Feel free to tell me what you might think of any of these if you find the time to read them
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9607603.msg370431#msg370431
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Many thanks for sharing your point of view.
What you said is a possibility but no one knows for sure. It is your own interpretation. However I like to know what others think
about your view? Surely the true message of Lord can not be so vague that every one can interpret what they like.
However the topic I chose to discuss has lots of unknowns so I get your point.Whatever I said was based on a few things, primarily normal definitions of words, our experience of reality itself, and the Qur'an.
The word "ruh" does not appear in that verse 8927, but instead "nafs".
When it comes to belief, I don't believe in a "ghost" form of a person really that people imagine is their "soul", but that I stated is just a belief of my own, there may be a "ghost" who is an illusory image of a person or something like that, but I think that is just people imagining things (stupidly).
It is totally factual to state "you are an experiencer". It just means that you are experiencing information supposedly. If that is incorrect, it means you are not experiencing anything at all. It may be true that you are just an illusion in my experience, all that can be stated as something I am sure of at least is that I am experiencing, and it is assumed that you are experiencing too. Experiencing is "existing" it is reception of information.
"True Death" is being defined here as "non-experience". It is the definition I am giving the term. If someone is "experiencing" they are thus "alive" or "existing". This is just basic language. If "death" is defined as "non-experience" then you are not "dead" "truly" if you are continuing to experience according to these definitions.
In terms of machines, the machine is still "running" if it isn't totally dead or off.
God is not made of information, because God is not made of anything at all, if God was made of something, this would be a problem, for more detailed information on this, you may want to read this
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9607171.msg362129#msg362129
Information means "visual information" too, thus a form, or "physical information" like binding laws, and none of these things apply to God. When Musa awoke, he said "subhanaka" meaning "Nothing are you" "Void are you", because Subhan means that. God said you can not experience him directly, and then demonstrated why by showing that God is total annihilation of all information (the mountain was atomized, and Musa lost consciousness, both demonstrating total Death or Destruction of all information, because God is Subhan, not made of anything).
Death is described in the Qur'an in ways that indicate the people are not really experiencing anything again until they start receiving information again, so the whole time is "skipped", and Death is compared to sleep, most likely a dreamless sleep, where all the time is likewise skipped, and it is called "returning to God", and God is non-information, can not be experienced directly, only information can be experienced, anything experienced is information, which is what God generates. If you see something, that is called "information", if you feel something, that is called "information" it is that you are being "informed". God in essential form is like Nothing, literally, is not a form of any sort, but can generate information which is how we come to appreciate the concept of God the Ultimate Power.
The "ghost" of a person can be created, but if that is actually the person even, can not be known for certain, and most everything can not be known for certain, except a few clearly understood things
That there is "stuff" being experienced by me, which I am calling "information".
That stuff is appearing "animated" and "changing", thus it appears "new information" is constantly being generated while other information is being eliminated in our experience, which is how we perceive anything.
This model might explain it in more detail if read carefully
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9607171.msg362129#msg362129 -
I think i am being interrogated here and not comfortable in answering in public.
For your second part of questions, yet I came across people who take the basic practices of islam out of context.
People will say why to fast? it is not good from medical point of view? and they will just find just about any explanation that satisfies them.I do believe in one God , the creator. and I also believe the more I read Quran, the more I see it is so beautiful and brilliant that only the supreme creator can send such writing.
What are your religious practices currently and beliefs? Could you list them out, including your daily life activities, and habits, like if you do any charity or whatever.
I haven't seen the really respectful atmosphere, I've just seen lots of people saying "peace" and following it up with snide remarks and underhanded remarks or insults.
I think it can probably safely be said there is no shortage of "kafirs" on this website, at least by the standards of the mainstream Muslims.
Those who do not perform salat and encourage others to leave off the formal prayers, who encourage others to not fast, who encourage others perhaps to fornicate as not believing in appropriate marriage rights for women, and a whole slew of other things like not going on pilgrimage, and also spreading what might be lies about the nature of reality or the universe or solar system or history or whatever else.
There are only a few active members, and it seems a good deal of them are either purposefully or inadvertently in the diligent process of turning people away from at least the mainstream interpretations of what it is to be a Muslim or even what it is to be a relatively sane and normal person.
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I think i am being interrogated here and not comfortable in answering in public.
For your second part of questions, yet I came across people who take the basic practices of islam out of context.
People will say why to fast? it is not good from medical point of view? and they will just find just about any explanation that satisfies them.I do believe in one God , the creator. and I also believe the more I read Quran, the more I see it is so beautiful and brilliant that only the supreme creator can send such writing.
That is good, I asked because of all the people who don't fast or pray and things like that.
I do all the mainstream Muslim practices generally, I just don't take the Hadiths as more than just things written some time after the death of those it is written about.
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I read your reply at least 3 times and what I am not able to understand is the following
"God is not made of information, because God is not made of anything at all, if God was made of something, this would be a problem"
I never believe that God is made of something. because if there is something made then it has to follow laws, it has to follow sequence of functions,
just like our kidneys or heart. Hence God can not be a slave to some sort of process.This is something which puzzles me for time to time. For example a person has a brain which creates signals and creates logical reasoning. However the though...
the very first thought?? where does it come from? Brain is not able to produce a thought? is it? what is the difference between a brain and thoughts? if thoughts are not produced in brain, where do thoughts originate from? is it nafs? is there a place called heart? which produces such thoughts which then find its place in a catalyst called brain?So for sure god is not subject to the above process, yet in Quran god gives many many examples which on the surface suggests that god thinks, god smiles, god has a hand (as a metaphor) and especially in verse where god says on day of judgement angels will come in rows and rows along with God. Perhaps god knows our limitation of thought and want to explain GOD in the way we can ?
What does the following verse tell us? I always wonder? how do we take it?
Allah is the Light of the Heavens and the Earth. The similitude of His Light is as a Niche, within which is a Lamp. The Lamp is in a glass (container). The glass (container) is as a bright planet. (The light of the lamp) is produced by fire from a blessed olive tree (oil), which is neither of the east nor of the west, whose oil would almost illuminate, without being touched by fire. Light Upon Light! Allah guides to His Light whom He wills. And Allah gives examples for people (as illustration), and Allah is knowledgeable of everything. (Al-Noor, 24 35)
Whatever I said was based on a few things, primarily normal definitions of words, our experience of reality itself, and the Qur'an.
The word "ruh" does not appear in that verse 8927, but instead "nafs".
When it comes to belief, I don't believe in a "ghost" form of a person really that people imagine is their "soul", but that I stated is just a belief of my own, there may be a "ghost" who is an illusory image of a person or something like that, but I think that is just people imagining things (stupidly).
It is totally factual to state "you are an experiencer". It just means that you are experiencing information supposedly. If that is incorrect, it means you are not experiencing anything at all. It may be true that you are just an illusion in my experience, all that can be stated as something I am sure of at least is that I am experiencing, and it is assumed that you are experiencing too. Experiencing is "existing" it is reception of information.
"True Death" is being defined here as "non-experience". It is the definition I am giving the term. If someone is "experiencing" they are thus "alive" or "existing". This is just basic language. If "death" is defined as "non-experience" then you are not "dead" "truly" if you are continuing to experience according to these definitions.
In terms of machines, the machine is still "running" if it isn't totally dead or off.
God is not made of information, because God is not made of anything at all, if God was made of something, this would be a problem, for more detailed information on this, you may want to read this
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9607171.msg362129#msg362129
Information means "visual information" too, thus a form, or "physical information" like binding laws, and none of these things apply to God. When Musa awoke, he said "subhanaka" meaning "Nothing are you" "Void are you", because Subhan means that. God said you can not experience him directly, and then demonstrated why by showing that God is total annihilation of all information (the mountain was atomized, and Musa lost consciousness, both demonstrating total Death or Destruction of all information, because God is Subhan, not made of anything).
Death is described in the Qur'an in ways that indicate the people are not really experiencing anything again until they start receiving information again, so the whole time is "skipped", and Death is compared to sleep, most likely a dreamless sleep, where all the time is likewise skipped, and it is called "returning to God", and God is non-information, can not be experienced directly, only information can be experienced, anything experienced is information, which is what God generates. If you see something, that is called "information", if you feel something, that is called "information" it is that you are being "informed". God in essential form is like Nothing, literally, is not a form of any sort, but can generate information which is how we come to appreciate the concept of God the Ultimate Power.
The "ghost" of a person can be created, but if that is actually the person even, can not be known for certain, and most everything can not be known for certain, except a few clearly understood things
That there is "stuff" being experienced by me, which I am calling "information".
That stuff is appearing "animated" and "changing", thus it appears "new information" is constantly being generated while other information is being eliminated in our experience, which is how we perceive anything.
This model might explain it in more detail if read carefully
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9607171.msg362129#msg362129 -
Buddy, I also try to follow main practices of Islam. Yes I do not look at people with critical eye. I do not go and proclaim fatwas. I do not look at
things which makes people argue. The Islam that I see today is full of cursing others for trivial issues, am far from it.My logic is what ever I believe or not..clock is ticking and the fact is that I will also come to a point of death. So why not be on the safe side.
And practice islam which talks about peace, charity, prayers and love every one. If I am wrong. I dont lose anything but if am right. i will not regret -)I hope am right...
That is good, I asked because of all the people who don't fast or pray and things like that.
I do all the mainstream Muslim practices generally, I just don't take the Hadiths as more than just things written some time after the death of those it is written about.
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I read your reply at least 3 times and what I am not able to understand is the following
"God is not made of information, because God is not made of anything at all, if God was made of something, this would be a problem"
I never believe that God is made of something. because if there is something made then it has to follow laws, it has to follow sequence of functions,
just like our kidneys or heart. Hence God can not be a slave to some sort of process.This is something which puzzles me for time to time. For example a person has a brain which creates signals and creates logical reasoning. However the though...
the very first thought?? where does it come from? Brain is not able to produce a thought? is it? what is the difference between a brain and thoughts? if thoughts are not produced in brain, where do thoughts originate from? is it nafs? is there a place called heart? which produces such thoughts which then find its place in a catalyst called brain?So for sure god is not subject to the above process, yet in Quran god gives many many examples which on the surface suggests that god thinks, god smiles, god has a hand (as a metaphor) and especially in verse where god says on day of judgement angels will come in rows and rows along with God. Perhaps god knows our limitation of thought and want to explain GOD in the way we can ?
What does the following verse tell us? I always wonder? how do we take it?
Allah is the Light of the Heavens and the Earth. The similitude of His Light is as a Niche, within which is a Lamp. The Lamp is in a glass (container). The glass (container) is as a bright planet. (The light of the lamp) is produced by fire from a blessed olive tree (oil), which is neither of the east nor of the west, whose oil would almost illuminate, without being touched by fire. Light Upon Light! Allah guides to His Light whom He wills. And Allah gives examples for people (as illustration), and Allah is knowledgeable of everything. (Al-Noor, 24 35)
The verse after that says that light, lights up the homes of the believers.
Now if you think of light, in a literal sense even (though most people imagine the light source like a light bulb or the sun), light in actuality is completely invisible and can not be perceived by the senses directly, only by what it is reflected on.
You only know a light is on in the room because of the reflection on the walls, you can't see the light itself, because it is invisible, if it wasn't, it would blind us entirely and we would not be able to see anything but the light itself.
So even if one is to think about the nature of actual light, it works as a similitude because God can not be perceived directly, only by what God is reflected on, and by the information that is made visible by God.
Light is often used as "knowledge", in the sense of "what makes known" just as light reveals things from the darkness and makes things visible, so too does knowledge or insight make things clearly visible to those who are given the light by which to see.
2436
(Lit is such a Light) in houses, which Allah hath permitted to be raised to honour; for the celebration, in them, of His name In them is He glorified in the mornings and in the evenings, (again and again),-So Allah is not literally light, but the example of a light in that case was referring to the light in the houses of worship and belief.
Yet, even in a very literal way, light works as a good example if one thinks about actual light, and how light fills a room but is invisible, yet is known by what it shines upon or is reflected by. That is, God is known by the reflections of the believers, and also by all information which is made visible and seen by God. That is everything, God is perceivable, like light, only by what is made known to us (information).
In the article I linked you, it goes through in detail about why God is not made of information or anything and how things necessarily have to work, without delving too much into opinion, and sticking pretty closely to tight logical necessity.
All the systems in between are transitory, and not knowable for sure, they can be anything or change, so what we can know though is that there is an Ultimate Cause for the thoughts, and we call whatever at all that Ultimate Cause is, God or Allah, the Absolute Ultimate.
That means, whatever the appearances may be, that the ball rolls down the hill or the man breathes the air, we say "All is from God", and that is the Ultimate Cause, so the answer to the question of where the first thought comes from, is that is comes from the Ultimate Cause. God generates the thoughts, all of them, no matter what they are, they are information and God is responsible for all the information whatsoever, there is no other creator or creative force or power, so God is responsible for every thought, action, and all information in existence ever.
The Qur'an uses the term which is often translated as "heart" to mean the "understanding" of a person. It was generally believed that all understanding comes from the heart, so the heart became the common term for one's understanding or innermost thoughts.
God definitely "thinks" in a sense, and every sort of emotion that we have, God as literally "the compassionate" has access to all information. That means, there is no one else who is truly "compassionate" in a literal sense. Compassion means "to suffer with" that is "to experience what another is experiencing", and what a person is experiencing is "information" and what God generates, encompasses, and "knows" is whatever "information" God creates, so God literally is the only truly "compassionate" one. All the "praises" of God are just factual statements, they aren't really like how we "praise" a human being, but they are just the truth about God's qualities. We can not experience what someone else is experiencing, or else we would be that person. We are made up of information, so if we experience the particular information someone else is experiencing, we are then that person unless there is some difference, then we are not. That is why Jesus is not God, because he doesn't know what God knows, and none of us are experiencing the information of "being God", yet God is experiencing all the information of what it is to "be" everything in every form of experience that God has created, that is a requirement of "omniscience" or to be "all knowing" and is stated in the Qur'an pretty clearly a few times too how God encompasses all vision but no vision encompasses God, and how all is known to God and the innermost thoughts and things like "How shall God not know, when he created it in the first place".
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I found an article below
http//www.quran-islam.org/main_topics/new_information/the_righteous_(P1255).html
According to the above article, all righteous will immediately enter paradise after death. Their souls will enter the same paradise from where adam and even were evicted.
How does this article relate to your viewpoint?
cheers
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Buddy, I also try to follow main practices of Islam. Yes I do not look at people with critical eye. I do not go and proclaim fatwas. I do not look at
things which makes people argue. The Islam that I see today is full of cursing others for trivial issues, am far from it.My logic is what ever I believe or not..clock is ticking and the fact is that I will also come to a point of death. So why not be on the safe side.
And practice islam which talks about peace, charity, prayers and love every one. If I am wrong. I dont lose anything but if am right. i will not regret -)I hope am right...
Your logic is the same as mine.
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I found an article below
http//www.quran-islam.org/main_topics/new_information/the_righteous_(P1255).html
According to the above article, all righteous will immediately enter paradise after death. Their souls will enter the same paradise from where adam and even were evicted.
How does this article relate to your viewpoint?
cheers
I believe there is no such thing as "heaven" and that Adam and Eve were on Earth, and then were expelled from the garden they were residing in or the heights as was actually part of the program. Later, the Earth will be destroyed, and a New and larger Earth will be created which will have Paradise and Hell as part of it, the good people being placed in paradise, and the bad in hell.
There is no such thing as "time" really, it is just an illusion. From the perspective of those who are dead, there is no time delay between their death and their experiencing again, whatever it is they may experience.
My beliefs are also based on the Qur'an, which states that Adam was created from the Earth for the Earth, there is no heavenly realm or other planet or sky realm mentioned really, they seem to be on Earth and even made from mud from the Earth, and are expelled only from the garden they were in and the state they were in, the Biblical version also places Eden on Earth.
Again the Qur'an says that Paradise will be on the New Earth, a newly created Earth after everything is wrapped up, and from our perspective such does not exist or else we would be experiencing it.
It is just more "information" and all of it is easy for Allah to generate and manipulate. We are uniquely closed in our own experiences and only know what God tells us "Know, you know not". We are practically made of "ignorance" and thus our limited information is what gives us our shapes and forms and being, otherwise we would be "one with God as God", but we aren't because we are made of limited information and boundaries and borders whereas God is the total opposite, not made of anything, having no limitations, able to generate information and having the only true "Free Will" where all our wills and our perception of having a "free will" or "choice" is actually God willing and choosing and generating the information and stories of our existences and lives and actively working through us and controlling our every move and thought.
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Quite interesting. It does make sense what You said but how can you relate from Quran that new paradise will be created?
Also where do the following verses fit within your viewpoint, because from all possible angles, these people did taste death in front of our eyes,
so they seem to die like rest of us because every living will have to taste death. However god especially mentions that these folks after death are
still alive and even more are fed?And do not say that whoso is killed in the path of Allah his dead. No! Indeed they are alive but you do not know how. (Surah 2, al-Baqarah verse 154)
And do not think of those killed in Allah?s path as dead indeed they are alive and receive their sustenance from their Lord. They rejoice in the bounty provided by Allah. (Surah 3, Aal-e Imran verse 169-170)
So if these folks are alive and fed, where do they live? in this earth where we are? in the mountains? or in the paradise which is not created yet?
Yes God says that how they live, we do not know. But they do live like real life... isnt it? so where?
I am just being critical to understand your views.I believe there is no such thing as "heaven" and that Adam and Eve were on Earth, and then were expelled from the garden they were residing in or the heights as was actually part of the program. Later, the Earth will be destroyed, and a New and larger Earth will be created which will have Paradise and Hell as part of it, the good people being placed in paradise, and the bad in hell.
There is no such thing as "time" really, it is just an illusion. From the perspective of those who are dead, there is no time delay between their death and their experiencing again, whatever it is they may experience.
My beliefs are also based on the Qur'an, which states that Adam was created from the Earth for the Earth, there is no heavenly realm or other planet or sky realm mentioned really, they seem to be on Earth and even made from mud from the Earth, and are expelled only from the garden they were in and the state they were in, the Biblical version also places Eden on Earth.
Again the Qur'an says that Paradise will be on the New Earth, a newly created Earth after everything is wrapped up, and from our perspective such does not exist or else we would be experiencing it.
It is just more "information" and all of it is easy for Allah to generate and manipulate. We are uniquely closed in our own experiences and only know what God tells us "Know, you know not". We are practically made of "ignorance" and thus our limited information is what gives us our shapes and forms and being, otherwise we would be "one with God as God", but we aren't because we are made of limited information and boundaries and borders whereas God is the total opposite, not made of anything, having no limitations, able to generate information and having the only true "Free Will" where all our wills and our perception of having a "free will" or "choice" is actually God willing and choosing and generating the information and stories of our existences and lives and actively working through us and controlling our every move and thought.
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Quite interesting. It does make sense what You said but how can you relate from Quran that new paradise will be created?
Also where do the following verses fit within your viewpoint, because from all possible angles, these people did taste death in front of our eyes,
so they seem to die like rest of us because every living will have to taste death. However god especially mentions that these folks after death are
still alive and even more are fed?And do not say that whoso is killed in the path of Allah his dead. No! Indeed they are alive but you do not know how. (Surah 2, al-Baqarah verse 154)
And do not think of those killed in Allah?s path as dead indeed they are alive and receive their sustenance from their Lord. They rejoice in the bounty provided by Allah. (Surah 3, Aal-e Imran verse 169-170)
So if these folks are alive and fed, where do they live? in this earth where we are? in the mountains? or in the paradise which is not created yet?
Yes God says that how they live, we do not know. But they do live like real life... isnt it? so where?
I am just being critical to understand your views.I believe that, since there is no real time, from their perspective they are experiencing immediately since there is no real experienced gap between information and information.
So the evil doers, from their experienced perspective, die and are immediately brought to Judgment day and hell and whatever.
Thus, similarly to how the Qur'an states examples of things occurring in Paradise, what people are saying and doing, it could be said "all those things are lies because we are not experiencing them yet" but those things are said to be experienced because God can or may have created those experiences.
The hurdle that needs to be leaped over is "time perception". In an instant, God could create your experience which places you in what is supposed to be the ancient past, or can place you in what it supposed to be the distant future. These things do not "exist" at all except in your experience. What you are "experiencing" is all you are, it is your "world", it is a Unit of Information, a particular combination. You have no access to anything outside of your perception.
You only have access to whatever is on your "viewscreen", whatever you are perceiving right now is your entire existence, what you are right now, it is a particular Unit of Information, a particular combination or "Shape". I don't mean just your body, I mean everything you are experiencing is all you are. No one else has access to it, nor do you have access to anything outside of it, it is a completely closed off unit.
Imagine a board with photographs on it, animated photographs that are in the first person view. God has access to all the photographs on the board, but you can not see anything but the photograph viewscreen, that is your limited perception, this is just an example.
"Time" is only something which appears to exist inside those photographs, one photograph can be showing a person who looks to be in ancient Rome, another can be looking like they are in the distant future, these are all just "units of experience" made up of "information" generated by God the Artist and Supreme Experiencer.
God is not bound by time, time is a concept in some of the experiences of people, God creates information, information is whatever at all is experienced, there is only ever "now" and we only ever have access to whatever God is informing us of "now" and God can change it entirely in an instant and "we" wouldn't even know better.
Consider also that "you" are long dead. How? Are you "experiencing" "10 minutes ago"? No, that information is no longer in existence in that exact form, or else you would be experiencing it exactly as it was, rather than a "memory" which only exists "now". So that person you were "ten minutes ago" no longer exists, is dead, gone, you only know what you are right "now", and you don't even know if your "memory" is true, since really what you are accessing is something that only exists now only, it didn't exist "10 minutes ago" which is just a concept anyway.
A moment ago you could have had a giant mustache, but you only know what God is telling you right this moment, and "a moment ago" doesn't even really exist, since there is no time, all that is happening is God and information, the information are "shapes of experience" and God is the experiencer, and is transforming them actively and "changing the shapes", and implanting in us the feeling or idea of "time" as a concept right now, and "progress" and "memory" and whatever else gives us the illusion of being the particular person we are now.
In truth, we are empty, only what God tells us, and God can tell us anything. That is why we are in a helpless state of dependency and Surrender. Islam is realizing that we are in a helpless state of absolute Surrender, willingly or unwillingly (and our willingness or unwillingness is even determined by God alone).
God tells some people they are in hell, creates the experience of tortures, and others God tells they are happy or rich or whatever.
The Qur'an says "God alone causes laughter and tears", "You can not will it, except as God wills you to", "Never any choice had they", and "God adds to their creation as he pleases".
We can be transformed in an instant, our experience is even now transforming, and we are told that it is transforming because a moment ago is no longer existing in our perception and now there is a new thing "God who creates and creates again".
So all these things are easy for Allah, and since there is no time at all, whatever at all Allah has created "exists now", though it does not "exist now" for us. For Allah, it is a matter of "Be" and it is.
So there may be in existence "now" other experiences, other worlds, other happenings, other people, Allah is Lord of Everthing, Lord of All the Realities and Experiences.
Each person is a reality unto themselves, a unit of experience, their own "world", that photograph on the board that is seeing and feeling whatever it may be and is cut off from the others.
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Peace Fusion.
Here is the version from Qoran (Check the verses)
We learn that death is exactly like sleeping; complete with dreams (660, 4046). The period between death and resurrection passes like one night of sleep (2259; 660; 1045; 1621; 1811, 1819, 1825; 3055).
At the moment of death, everyone knows his or her destiny; Heaven or Hell. For the disbelievers, death is a horrible event; the angels snatch away their souls (850, 4727, 791).
Consistently, the Qoran talks about two deaths, the first death took place when we failed to make a stand with God's absolute authority. That first death lasted until we were born into this world. The second death terminates our life in this world (228, 2266, 4011).
However,the Righteous Do Not Really Die. They Go Straight to Heaven
Give good news to those who believe and lead a righteous life that they will have gardens with flowing streams. When provided with a provision of fruits therein, they will say, "This is what was provided for us previously." Thus, they are given allegorical descriptions. They will have pure spouses therein, and they abide therein forever.
Do not think that those who are killed in the cause of God are dead; they are alive at their Lord, enjoying His provisions.
Do not say of those who are killed in the cause of God, "They are dead." They are alive at their Lord, but you do not perceive.
O you who believe, you shall respond to God and to the messenger when he invites you to what gives you life.* You should know that God is closer to you than your heart, and that before Him you will be summoned.
Those who emigrate for the sake of God, then get killed, or die, God will surely shower them with good provisions. God is certainly the best Provider.
They do not taste death therein - beyond the first death - and He has spared them the retribution of Hell.
(At the time of his death) he was told, "Enter Paradise." He said, "Oh, I wish my people knew.
"That my Lord has forgiven me, and made me honorable."The wages of sin is death
But we learn from 8927-30 that God invites the believers' souls "Enter My Paradise."
As for the disbelievers, they know at the moment of death that they are destined for Hell. The angels order them to evict their souls (693), then "snatch their souls" (791).
The Qoran teaches that the disbelievers go through 2 deaths (228 & 4011). They will be put to death - a state of nothingness during which they see Hell day and night in a continuous nightmare that lasts until the Day of Judgment (4046). Hell is not yet in existence (4046, 8923).
Do we think GOD treats the righteous like the wicked? The believers and the disbelievers death are not the same!!!
As far as people are concerned, the righteous "die.Their bodies cease to exists/get buried..." People do not realize that the righteous souls simply leave their bodies, and move on to Paradise.
The verses shown above are self explanatory. They tell us that the righteous die only once - the one death we have already experienced as a consequence of the great feud (3869). In 3626-27, we see the best evidence that the righteous go to Paradise, while other humans are still living on earth. i.e before resurrection.Of course they will also inherit paradise after the resurrection.
Check/cross examine the verses in Qoran.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Peace Fusion.
Here is the version from Qoran (Check the verses)
We learn that death is exactly like sleeping; complete with dreams (660, 4046). The period between death and resurrection passes like one night of sleep (2259; 660; 1045; 1621; 1811, 1819, 1825; 3055).
At the moment of death, everyone knows his or her destiny; Heaven or Hell. For the disbelievers, death is a horrible event; the angels snatch away their souls (850, 4727, 791).
Consistently, the Qoran talks about two deaths, the first death took place when we failed to make a stand with God's absolute authority. That first death lasted until we were born into this world. The second death terminates our life in this world (228, 2266, 4011).
However,the Righteous Do Not Really Die. They Go Straight to Heaven
Give good news to those who believe and lead a righteous life that they will have gardens with flowing streams. When provided with a provision of fruits therein, they will say, "This is what was provided for us previously." Thus, they are given allegorical descriptions. They will have pure spouses therein, and they abide therein forever.
Do not think that those who are killed in the cause of God are dead; they are alive at their Lord, enjoying His provisions.
Do not say of those who are killed in the cause of God, "They are dead." They are alive at their Lord, but you do not perceive.
O you who believe, you shall respond to God and to the messenger when he invites you to what gives you life.* You should know that God is closer to you than your heart, and that before Him you will be summoned.
Those who emigrate for the sake of God, then get killed, or die, God will surely shower them with good provisions. God is certainly the best Provider.
They do not taste death therein - beyond the first death - and He has spared them the retribution of Hell.
(At the time of his death) he was told, "Enter Paradise." He said, "Oh, I wish my people knew.
"That my Lord has forgiven me, and made me honorable."The wages of sin is death
But we learn from 8927-30 that God invites the believers' souls "Enter My Paradise."
As for the disbelievers, they know at the moment of death that they are destined for Hell. The angels order them to evict their souls (693), then "snatch their souls" (791).
The Qoran teaches that the disbelievers go through 2 deaths (228 & 4011). They will be put to death - a state of nothingness during which they see Hell day and night in a continuous nightmare that lasts until the Day of Judgment (4046). Hell is not yet in existence (4046, 8923).
Do we think GOD treats the righteous like the wicked? The believers and the disbelievers death are not the same!!!
As far as people are concerned, the righteous "die.Their bodies cease to exists/get buried..." People do not realize that the righteous souls simply leave their bodies, and move on to Paradise.
The verses shown above are self explanatory. They tell us that the righteous die only once - the one death we have already experienced as a consequence of the great feud (3869). In 3626-27, we see the best evidence that the righteous go to Paradise, while other humans are still living on earth. i.e before resurrection.Of course they will also inherit paradise after the resurrection.
Check/cross examine the verses in Qoran.
GOD bless you.
Peace.They seem rather confused in some verses when they wake up and then are exposed to the sight of hell and are asked something like "is this then magic?"
I thought the two deaths was a reference to our not existing before we are born, then our living, then our death, then our living again.
I thought all people agreed to the covenant of "hearing and obeying" and God asking who their Lord is. If death is exactly like sleep, there are many more than two, but any period in which no information is being received is entirely skipped, so if all information is cut off from a person, they aren't experiencing anything and will go right to their next experience from their perspective.
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Peace FreedomStands.
Here are the verses
Death like sleep
660
He is the One who puts you to death during the night, and knows even the smallest of your actions during the day. He resurrects you every morning, until your life span is fulfilled, then to Him is your ultimate return. He will then inform you of everything you had done.Of course if you wake up every morning then you have not ceased to be human hence not departed this life yet hence ...i.e still living the last departure is the death that counts. ( one death)
The disbelievers
4011
They will say, "Our Lord, you have put us to death twice,* and You gave us two lives; now we have confessed our sins. Is there any way out?"Also
1628
The angels put them to death in a state of wronging their souls. That is when they finally submit, and say, "We did not do anything wrong!" Yes indeed. God is fully aware of everything you have done.The believers
4456
They do not taste death therein - beyond the first death - and He has spared them the retribution of Hell.4457
Such is the blessing from your Lord. Such is the great triumph.Also.
1632
The angels terminate their lives in a state of righteousness, saying, "Peace be upon you. Enter Paradise (now) as a reward for your works."Remember "no contradiction in Qoran" in some verses the "nafs" can mean the person/body/..this life and in other verses "nafs" can mean the soul /the real person/spirit... It depends on the context.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Peace FreedomStands.
Here are the verses
Death like sleep
660
He is the One who puts you to death during the night, and knows even the smallest of your actions during the day. He resurrects you every morning, until your life span is fulfilled, then to Him is your ultimate return. He will then inform you of everything you had done.Of course if you wake up every morning then you have not ceased to be human hence not departed this life yet hence ...i.e still living the last departure is the death that counts. ( one death)
The disbelievers
4011
They will say, "Our Lord, you have put us to death twice,* and You gave us two lives; now we have confessed our sins. Is there any way out?"Also
1628
The angels put them to death in a state of wronging their souls. That is when they finally submit, and say, "We did not do anything wrong!" Yes indeed. God is fully aware of everything you have done.The believers
4456
They do not taste death therein - beyond the first death - and He has spared them the retribution of Hell.4457
Such is the blessing from your Lord. Such is the great triumph.Also.
1632
The angels terminate their lives in a state of righteousness, saying, "Peace be upon you. Enter Paradise (now) as a reward for your works."Remember "no contradiction in Qoran" in some verses the "nafs" can mean the person/body/..this life and in other verses "nafs" can mean the soul /the real person/spirit... It depends on the context.
GOD bless you.
Peace.I know about the death like sleep thing, but I'm not totally sure about the dreaming part, though that certainly can be possible and I have no major issue with it really, its just that in normal sleep, there are periods where dreams are not remembered, and there are other aspects of regular sleep that are not included in death, such as breathing, heart beating, whatever else. It is likely a person does go into some sort of dreamlike state shortly before total brain death and then when information ceases if it ceases the person is skipped right to the time they receive information again. I'm not sure about the idea that everyone is dreaming for thousands of years or whatever, but a dream may be included in their experience of sleep, but at other times people do not remember their dreams or have a dreamless sleep, so death is not exactly like sleep in the sense of there being no heartbeat and no breathing or other bodily functions (we assume), but yeah generally everything you said is fine and of no major issue or conflict, I don't have a problem with little things going this way or that.
In my view though I thought the death was before we were born meaning non-existence, then after we die, and then the two living periods as well.
I usually define total death as a cessation of all information, and that a person is only "living" in any sense if they are experiencing information.
No big whoop though, sounds fine.
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Peace FreedomStands.
Fine. Thank you for your replies.
The "dream/nightmare " scenario for the disbelievers is here ( Pharaoh and his followers as example)
4045
God then protected him from their evil schemes, while the people of Pharaoh have incurred the worst retribution.4046
The Hell will be shown to them day and night, and on the Day of Resurrection "Admit Pharaoh's people into the worst retribution."May the Lord save from the continuous nightmare and from the retribution that follows!
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
I think I have already provided the following verses in favor of my arguments earlier, seems my post i hijacked for some other debate -)
Freedom talks about death compared to sleep and then not quite agreeing with thousands of years of dream or sleep. While at least there are two verses in Quran where God tells us about people of cave or the other person riding his donkey, were put to sleep for 100 years plus.
What is the difference in these two examples? people of cave was mentioned as sleep on their ears. while the later exampled was mentioned as death?About the time. I read in quran that God talks about time where his one day is like 1000 or 50k of earth years? what is this relate to?
Also a person may experience information and his day of judgement is when he dies as said by freedom but i disagree because there is a clear process and steps and actions mentioned by God with regard to the actual judgement day for all mankind and jinn. Besides to re-create a scenario of information feeling, we will have issues of what other associated information (people , objects ) around the person will behave like or need to be created as well with precise?
I mean can we travel back in time? I can for example in my brain of knowledge but I have to understand I CAN not change the past?I think God has given an example of this life very clearly and I am really satisfied with this example
"The example of worldly life is but like rain which We have sent down from the sky that the
plants of the earth absorb - from which men
and livestock eat - until, when the earth has taken on
its adornment and is beautified and its people
suppose that they have capability over it, there
comes to it Our command by night or by day, and We make it as a harvest, as if it had not flourished
yesterday. Thus do We explain in detail the signs for
a people who give thought." (10 24)Peace FreedomStands.
Fine. Thank you for your replies.
The "dream/nightmare " scenario for the disbelievers is here ( Pharaoh and his followers as example)
4045
God then protected him from their evil schemes, while the people of Pharaoh have incurred the worst retribution.4046
The Hell will be shown to them day and night, and on the Day of Resurrection "Admit Pharaoh's people into the worst retribution."May the Lord save from the continuous nightmare and from the retribution that follows!
GOD bless you.
Peace.
