After death

Fusion

Hi folks,
I really missed the forum, as I was unable to enter the website (banned here) and my proxies were also banned.
Today I was able to find a new proxy , hence am here.
I have an intriguing question , just for self satisfaction reasons.

Based on my understanding and some of the explanations from posts on the site, for the following verses

3651 And the horn will be blown, whereupon they will rise from the graves massing towards their Lord.
3652 They will say ?Woe to us! Who has resurrected us from our resting place? This is what the Almighty had promised; and the messengers were truthful!?

4045 So God protected him from the evil of what they schemed, while the people of Pharaoh have incurred the worst retribution.
4046 The Fire, which they will be exposed to morning and evening, and on the Day when the Hour is established ?Admit the people of Pharaoh into the most severe of the retribution

228 How can you reject God when you were dead and He brought you to life? Then He makes you die, then He brings you to life, then to Him you return

3942 God seizes the souls at the time of their death; and for those that have not died, during their sleep. He then keeps those that have
been overtaken by death, and He sends the others back until a predetermined time. In that are signs for a people who will think.

Based on the above and the fact that God is also saying signs for people who want to think. I have the following questions/statements.

When a person dies, his soul departs from the body and he or she went into dreamless sleep until the judgement day.
He or she will enter into a state of NULL/VOID/UNKNOWN similar to what the person was before birth ( 228 where god talks about two deaths.
meaning we were dead before we are born, (dead in the sense of body, perhaps soul was alive and kept as dormant)).
The above is true for most of the people. But if God wants as a special case, HE may let a soul feel the heat even after death as in the case of verse 4046, where the hell fire was shown to the king day and night, because his sins were so evil that God may want to make him realize that his judgement is already done.
But this could be a special case. While all other folks will wake up only at the judgement day.
The story of people of caves, although not related but gave me an indication that when a person will wake up after death on judgement day, he or she may experience that the sleep lasted for few days or less and would not realize that he was actually dead for centuries, because of the simple fact that he was made dead (null) and could not recollect how long was he asleep.
So in essence there is some sort of punishment after death and before judgement day (not the kind which is so popular in most of the muslim concepts of azab-e-qabar) but definitely some consciousnesses is there for some extreme cases/people as in case of pharaoh example above.
I am more inclined to believe that the reward and punishment is only going to happen at the judgement day as it is mentioned in so many places in quran. The talk about a book which does not leave a thing, the talk about people whose faces were glow or become dark based on their deeds evaluation etc etc.

Now I would not care what happens after death, as the only place I have control is this life. However I just wanna share if what I understand is some what close to what you folks think ?

I would also like to understand the context of the following verse based on what verses I have quoted above

3620 And a man came running from the farthest part of the city, saying ?O my people, follow the messengers.?
3621 ?Follow those who do not ask you for any wage, and are guided.?
3622 ?And why should I not serve the One who initiated me, and to Him is your ultimate return??
3623 ?Shall I take gods besides Him? If the Almighty intends any harm for me, their intercession cannot help me in the least, nor can they save me.?
3624 ?Then I would be clearly astray.?
3625 ?I have believed in your Lord, so listen to me!?
3626 It was said ?Enter Paradise.? He said ?Oh, how I wish if only my people knew!?
3627 ?Of what my Lord has forgiven me, and made me of the honored ones.?

Does the above verse is talking about a real story that has happened ? if yes, does it mean the man running from the city and when he dies, he was made to enter the paradise (the same paradise that we all believe will be enabled only after day of judgement and its doors will open to believers)?
So does this mean that man in question enters the same paradise after he was dead or killed and he was a soul? and before he is even made to life on judgement day?
If it is true, that means one can enter the same paradise after his death? and before the actual judgement day and it is not just some illusion or dream entry? as per the verse above, the man was so happy that he exclaimed had the people know what a paradise is..... because he had witnessed it and entered it?
Did he enter as a body?

I really am not questioning the validity because I think maybe I am not interpreting correctly. But some verses clearly are exceptions cases . especially the last one?

Update
I forgot to mention the following verse
8927 ?O you soul which is peaceful.?
8928 ?Return to your Lord happy and content.?
433
8929 ? 9020
8929 ?And enter in among My servants.?
8930 ?And enter My Paradise.?

So I guess for some privileged people, God will waive the death, will waive the judgement day, and will make them enter the same paradise immediately they die or killed? I was under the impression that this is limited to those who are killed in the name of god or it can happen to any one?

Cheers

FreedomStands

Why were you banned and what did you miss about this place?

Fusion

Why were you banned and what did you miss about this place?

My goodness. I never said I was banned. www.free-minds.org is not accessible at my place, it is restricted from access.
What I miss is the reasoning freedom. No one labels another one as kafir or similar. Every one has their opinion and respect others.
Of course, I have to have my own thoughts and intelligence in order to grasp the knowledge.

However I must admit that after I have joined the forum, I began to suspect everything... even the book... I guess it is quite natural.
However when certain things are become clear to me, they are now crystal clear... more clean that the previous version of accept all beliefs and concepts AS IS because I was born as a muslim. Now I guess am having a choice to become muslim.

Not everything is to my satisfaction here. But it has lot of good content.

Cheers

FreedomStands

It doesn't say "ruh" in 8927, it says "nafs".

I don't believe there is even a soul really, in the way people imagine some kind of object or form, only the experience.

You are an experiencer, you experience information, all you are is the information you experience.

True death is non-experience, non-information.

God is not made of any information, thus it is called "returning to God".

What resumes on Judgment Day is your experience.

God can give any sort of experience to anything, can make you experience floating around as just vision, or anything. Currently you are supposedly experiencing a first person view inside a body with arms ahead of you that you can control, and maybe some legs you might not be paying attention to, unable to see your back unless you're the little girl from the exorcist.

There is no "ghost" image of a person, but God can make such a thing too. Your "self" or "nafs" is just the experience you are receiving, that limited amount of information that makes up what you are experiencing and all you are right now.

The real "soul" or "ruh" or spirit is the animation, what animates anything and everything. It is God's animating power which pervades everywhere, it animates the information you are experiencing and everything in existence, and is what you know as keeping your body alive, it is the life energy.

When the life energy leaves the body, all information reception is generally cut off because a person has no more of those senses active (or so it is thought), yet God can create any sort of experience or different stories or circumstances.

I don't necessarily think what you quoted is actually skipping Judgment Day, it just skips it in the writing, but it may be that it is skipped for some people, ultimately that isn't important, because "who cares" except as motivation to do and be good.

FreedomStands

Hi folks,
I really missed the forum, as I was unable to enter the website (banned here) and my proxies were also banned.

I had been talking about that. Perhaps it is easy to understand how one might think you were "banned here".

FreedomStands

My goodness. I never said I was banned. www.free-minds.org is not accessible at my place, it is restricted from access.
What I miss is the reasoning freedom. No one labels another one as kafir or similar. Every one has their opinion and respect others.
Of course, I have to have my own thoughts and intelligence in order to grasp the knowledge.

However I must admit that after I have joined the forum, I began to suspect everything... even the book... I guess it is quite natural.
However when certain things are become clear to me, they are now crystal clear... more clean that the previous version of accept all beliefs and concepts AS IS because I was born as a muslim. Now I guess am having a choice to become muslim.

Not everything is to my satisfaction here. But it has lot of good content.

Cheers

What are your religious practices currently and beliefs? Could you list them out, including your daily life activities, and habits, like if you do any charity or whatever.

I haven't seen the really respectful atmosphere, I've just seen lots of people saying "peace" and following it up with snide remarks and underhanded remarks or insults.

I think it can probably safely be said there is no shortage of "kafirs" on this website, at least by the standards of the mainstream Muslims.

Those who do not perform salat and encourage others to leave off the formal prayers, who encourage others to not fast, who encourage others perhaps to fornicate as not believing in appropriate marriage rights for women, and a whole slew of other things like not going on pilgrimage, and also spreading what might be lies about the nature of reality or the universe or solar system or history or whatever else.

There are only a few active members, and it seems a good deal of them are either purposefully or inadvertently in the diligent process of turning people away from at least the mainstream interpretations of what it is to be a Muslim or even what it is to be a relatively sane and normal person.

Fusion

I had been talking about that. Perhaps it is easy to understand how one might think you were "banned here".

I think I have made some errors in my statements.

www.free-minds.org is blocked/banned in the region I belong to. Not that i was banned by moderator here.
Not only the website, there are many other website blocked at my place.
I have personally no issues with this as I respect the country law and coming here does not mean I adhere to what is being said here in full.
It is only for having arguments and listen to other opinions.

cheers

Fusion

Many thanks for sharing your point of view.
What you said is a possibility but no one knows for sure. It is your own interpretation. However I like to know what others think
about your view? Surely the true message of Lord can not be so vague that every one can interpret what they like.
However the topic I chose to discuss has lots of unknowns so I get your point.

There is another point I want to make. Quran is the word of God and the subject of Quran is us.. humans.
So many places Quran makes claims that humans should find signs in message of God.
However would God require one to have a university degree in order to understand the real meaning of Quran?
I believe the message of Quran should be comfortably understood by an average sane person else where is the point?

It doesn't say "ruh" in 8927, it says "nafs".

I don't believe there is even a soul really, in the way people imagine some kind of object or form, only the experience.

You are an experiencer, you experience information, all you are is the information you experience.

True death is non-experience, non-information.

God is not made of any information, thus it is called "returning to God".

What resumes on Judgment Day is your experience.

God can give any sort of experience to anything, can make you experience floating around as just vision, or anything. Currently you are supposedly experiencing a first person view inside a body with arms ahead of you that you can control, and maybe some legs you might not be paying attention to, unable to see your back unless you're the little girl from the exorcist.

There is no "ghost" image of a person, but God can make such a thing too. Your "self" or "nafs" is just the experience you are receiving, that limited amount of information that makes up what you are experiencing and all you are right now.

The real "soul" or "ruh" or spirit is the animation, what animates anything and everything. It is God's animating power which pervades everywhere, it animates the information you are experiencing and everything in existence, and is what you know as keeping your body alive, it is the life energy.

When the life energy leaves the body, all information reception is generally cut off because a person has no more of those senses active (or so it is thought), yet God can create any sort of experience or different stories or circumstances.

I don't necessarily think what you quoted is actually skipping Judgment Day, it just skips it in the writing, but it may be that it is skipped for some people, ultimately that isn't important, because "who cares" except as motivation to do and be good.

FreedomStands

I think I have made some errors in my statements.

www.free-minds.org is blocked/banned in the region I belong to. Not that i was banned by moderator here.
Not only the website, there are many other website blocked at my place.
I have personally no issues with this as I respect the country law and coming here does not mean I adhere to what is being said here in full.
It is only for having arguments and listen to other opinions.

cheers

What country is it that you are in which has this website blocked?

Feel free to tell me what you might think of any of these if you find the time to read them

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9607603.msg370431#msg370431

FreedomStands

Many thanks for sharing your point of view.
What you said is a possibility but no one knows for sure. It is your own interpretation. However I like to know what others think
about your view? Surely the true message of Lord can not be so vague that every one can interpret what they like.
However the topic I chose to discuss has lots of unknowns so I get your point.

Whatever I said was based on a few things, primarily normal definitions of words, our experience of reality itself, and the Qur'an.

The word "ruh" does not appear in that verse 8927, but instead "nafs".

When it comes to belief, I don't believe in a "ghost" form of a person really that people imagine is their "soul", but that I stated is just a belief of my own, there may be a "ghost" who is an illusory image of a person or something like that, but I think that is just people imagining things (stupidly).

It is totally factual to state "you are an experiencer". It just means that you are experiencing information supposedly. If that is incorrect, it means you are not experiencing anything at all. It may be true that you are just an illusion in my experience, all that can be stated as something I am sure of at least is that I am experiencing, and it is assumed that you are experiencing too. Experiencing is "existing" it is reception of information.

"True Death" is being defined here as "non-experience". It is the definition I am giving the term. If someone is "experiencing" they are thus "alive" or "existing". This is just basic language. If "death" is defined as "non-experience" then you are not "dead" "truly" if you are continuing to experience according to these definitions.

In terms of machines, the machine is still "running" if it isn't totally dead or off.

God is not made of information, because God is not made of anything at all, if God was made of something, this would be a problem, for more detailed information on this, you may want to read this

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9607171.msg362129#msg362129

Information means "visual information" too, thus a form, or "physical information" like binding laws, and none of these things apply to God. When Musa awoke, he said "subhanaka" meaning "Nothing are you" "Void are you", because Subhan means that. God said you can not experience him directly, and then demonstrated why by showing that God is total annihilation of all information (the mountain was atomized, and Musa lost consciousness, both demonstrating total Death or Destruction of all information, because God is Subhan, not made of anything).

Death is described in the Qur'an in ways that indicate the people are not really experiencing anything again until they start receiving information again, so the whole time is "skipped", and Death is compared to sleep, most likely a dreamless sleep, where all the time is likewise skipped, and it is called "returning to God", and God is non-information, can not be experienced directly, only information can be experienced, anything experienced is information, which is what God generates. If you see something, that is called "information", if you feel something, that is called "information" it is that you are being "informed". God in essential form is like Nothing, literally, is not a form of any sort, but can generate information which is how we come to appreciate the concept of God the Ultimate Power.

The "ghost" of a person can be created, but if that is actually the person even, can not be known for certain, and most everything can not be known for certain, except a few clearly understood things

That there is "stuff" being experienced by me, which I am calling "information".

That stuff is appearing "animated" and "changing", thus it appears "new information" is constantly being generated while other information is being eliminated in our experience, which is how we perceive anything.

This model might explain it in more detail if read carefully
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9607171.msg362129#msg362129

Fusion

I think i am being interrogated here and not comfortable in answering in public.

For your second part of questions, yet I came across people who take the basic practices of islam out of context.
People will say why to fast? it is not good from medical point of view? and they will just find just about any explanation that satisfies them.

I do believe in one God , the creator. and I also believe the more I read Quran, the more I see it is so beautiful and brilliant that only the supreme creator can send such writing.

What are your religious practices currently and beliefs? Could you list them out, including your daily life activities, and habits, like if you do any charity or whatever.

I haven't seen the really respectful atmosphere, I've just seen lots of people saying "peace" and following it up with snide remarks and underhanded remarks or insults.

I think it can probably safely be said there is no shortage of "kafirs" on this website, at least by the standards of the mainstream Muslims.

Those who do not perform salat and encourage others to leave off the formal prayers, who encourage others to not fast, who encourage others perhaps to fornicate as not believing in appropriate marriage rights for women, and a whole slew of other things like not going on pilgrimage, and also spreading what might be lies about the nature of reality or the universe or solar system or history or whatever else.

There are only a few active members, and it seems a good deal of them are either purposefully or inadvertently in the diligent process of turning people away from at least the mainstream interpretations of what it is to be a Muslim or even what it is to be a relatively sane and normal person.

FreedomStands

I think i am being interrogated here and not comfortable in answering in public.

For your second part of questions, yet I came across people who take the basic practices of islam out of context.
People will say why to fast? it is not good from medical point of view? and they will just find just about any explanation that satisfies them.

I do believe in one God , the creator. and I also believe the more I read Quran, the more I see it is so beautiful and brilliant that only the supreme creator can send such writing.

That is good, I asked because of all the people who don't fast or pray and things like that.

I do all the mainstream Muslim practices generally, I just don't take the Hadiths as more than just things written some time after the death of those it is written about.

Fusion

I read your reply at least 3 times and what I am not able to understand is the following

"God is not made of information, because God is not made of anything at all, if God was made of something, this would be a problem"

I never believe that God is made of something. because if there is something made then it has to follow laws, it has to follow sequence of functions,
just like our kidneys or heart. Hence God can not be a slave to some sort of process.

This is something which puzzles me for time to time. For example a person has a brain which creates signals and creates logical reasoning. However the though...
the very first thought?? where does it come from? Brain is not able to produce a thought? is it? what is the difference between a brain and thoughts? if thoughts are not produced in brain, where do thoughts originate from? is it nafs? is there a place called heart? which produces such thoughts which then find its place in a catalyst called brain?

So for sure god is not subject to the above process, yet in Quran god gives many many examples which on the surface suggests that god thinks, god smiles, god has a hand (as a metaphor) and especially in verse where god says on day of judgement angels will come in rows and rows along with God. Perhaps god knows our limitation of thought and want to explain GOD in the way we can ?

What does the following verse tell us? I always wonder? how do we take it?

Allah is the Light of the Heavens and the Earth. The similitude of His Light is as a Niche, within which is a Lamp. The Lamp is in a glass (container). The glass (container) is as a bright planet. (The light of the lamp) is produced by fire from a blessed olive tree (oil), which is neither of the east nor of the west, whose oil would almost illuminate, without being touched by fire. Light Upon Light! Allah guides to His Light whom He wills. And Allah gives examples for people (as illustration), and Allah is knowledgeable of everything. (Al-Noor, 24 35)