WHAT DOES QURAN SAY ABOUT BIBLICAL CORRUPTION

Man_of_Faith

Hi Tarekkhan

The important is to know what Toratah and Injeel are first.

Moses received only those statutes in stone and Jesus elaborated upon them giving insight and announced that the Kingdom is at hand.

What Jesus ever said is briefly summarized in those Biblical Gospels such as the elaboration on the commandments, e.g. "Moses said you should not kill, but I tell you do not be angry with your brother". The one who looks for other teachings is looking for the wrong thing. Jesus taught the misconception that the Sustainer is an object of worship but more for assimilation with imitating the deeds and features of the Sustainer to be perfected, i.e. Jesus taught about behavior.

People are usually more obsessed with rituals and stuff and that is a clear distraction. What is mostly discussed on this forum for example is on how to perform rituals the proper way rather than on lifestyle.

And acknowledge the Sustainer people do better without the constant hatred emitting from the traditional translation of Quran, if you mind me saying it. This god has a huge ego and seems to have a poor self-confidence and must feed it constantly. I have thought something to be wrong for a while now, and I have support from my own dedicated reinterpretation work.

I am sorry if this text upsets you in any way, but I ventilate a little.

Be well

tarekkhan29

Peace Hizbullah-

I read your articles and i have few comments. Hizbullah's comments is Red

High possibility that Prophet Muhammad, was born before the 4th Century of the Common Era and the Holy Quran was sent down in the 4th Century in order to counter the distortion of the 1st Book of ALLAH, which comprises of the Torah and Injeel by the Roman Christians as confirmed by the Quranic verse below

Not really. There is evidence that Muhammad (P) existing during the 7th Century.
http//www.islamic-awareness.org/History/Islam/Inscriptions/earlysaw.html
Q) Where was Prophet Muhammad (P) located?
Q) Any historical / archeological evidence?
Q) If he was supposedly existed before 4th Century, why is it that NOBODY ever mentioned him?

Holy Quran 0279 -So woe to those who write the "Book" with their own hands, then say, "This is from ALLAH ," in order to exchange it for a small price. Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they earn.
Let?s look at the verse which is one of the Quranic evidence, proving that the Quran was sent down during Nicaea. I will segregate the verse into A & B
A. So woe to those who write the "Book" with their own hands, then say, "This is from ALLAH," in order to exchange it for a small price.
Look at the imperfect verb , shows that the sentence in Present Tense. It proofs that the Quran was sent down during the time when a Book was written. This can only be during the Creed of Nicaea in 325, when the Romans under Constantine created the Bible. This was the time when the distortion of the Book of ALLAH started.

If you read it in the context it's talking about Jews corrupting the scriptures.

Please read 270-79.

275 Do you expect that they will believe you when a party of them hear the Word of ALLAH, then alter (yuarrifnahu) it after they have understood it, and they well know the consequences thereof.
278 Among them are gentiles who do not know the scripture, except through hearsay, then assume that they know it.

There were no gentiles in Council if Nicea.

I can be wrong but are you emphasizing that Muhammad (P) was near NIcea?

From The Bible's Ungodly Origins by Robert L. Johnson?.
Emperor Constantine, who was Roman Emperor from 306 CE until his death in 337 CE, used what motivates many to action - MONEY! He offered the various Church leaders MONEY to agree upon a single canon that would be used by all Christians as the word of God. The Church leaders gathered together at the Council of Nicaea and voted the "word of god" into existence. Constantine ordered and financed 50 parchment copies of the new "holy scriptures." It seems with the financial element added to the picture, the Church fathers were able to overcome their differences and finally agree which "holy" books would stay and which would go.

There is no historical proof of Constantine paying churches to agree upon one canon. What is the author's source if this information?
The First Council of Nicea purpose was settlement of the Christological issue of the nature of the Son of God and his relationship to God the Father(addressing Ariunism heresy),the construction of the first part of the Creed of Nicaea, establishing uniform observance of the date of Easter, and promulgation of early canon law.
And definitely, nobody was writing books in Council of Nicea.

Holy Quran 0568 - Say, "O People of the Scripture, you are on nothing until you uphold the Torah, the Gospel, and what has been revealed to you from your Lord."
The command of ALLAH thru HIS prophet is the above verse. This shows explicitly that the Book of ALLAH was intact. Nobody in their right mind, especially a prophet, would want to teach things that are already distorted! The Prophet warned the People of the Book to uphold the Torah and Gospel and the Quran for their own salvation. Unfortunately, they did not as per the Holy Quran...
Holy Quran 0566 -And if they had kept up the Taurat and the Injeel and that which was revealed to them from their Lord, they would certainly have eaten from above them and from beneath their feet, there is a party of them keeping to the moderate course, and (as for) most of them, evil is that which they do.

Agreed.

B. Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they earn.
Again, look at the perfect verb and imperfect verb , shows that the sentence in Past Tense and Present Tense respectively.

Exactly. Corruption has been taking place in Past and Present. Few example from the top of my head
Deut 34 (Death of Moses) Torah (Pentateuch) is supposedly written by Moses except for Deut 34 which describes Moses's funeral.
Translation of Hebrew Bible into Greek (Septuagint).
1 John57, Mark chapter 16 longer Ending, Jesus and the Adulteress story, the whole passion and resurrection even.
Deuterocanonical books removed by Protestant Christians

Further, an abstract from The Bible's Ungodly Origins by Robert L. Johnson?.
"Therefore, one can easily argue that the first Christian Bible was commissioned, paid for, inspected and approved by a pagan emperor for church use."

Not historically true. This is religious conspiracy theory. Internet scholarship. I would highly recommend Prof. Bart Ehrman's lectures From Jesus to Constantine on early Christian history.

So, it had been prophesied by the Almighty that the Bible will be distorted. Another most significant proof that the Holy Quran was sent down in the 4th Century is the story about the Sleepers of the Cave. This Glorious Quranic verse is a prophecy and a Quranic evidence.
AQ 1822 - They will say there were three, the fourth of them being their dog; and they will say there were five, the sixth of them being their dog - guessing at the unseen; and they will say there were seven, and the eighth of them was their dog. Say, , "My Lord is most knowing of their number. None knows them except a few. So do not argue about them except with an obvious argument and do not inquire about them among from anyone."
Study the tenses carefully and you will find that the sentence is in Future/Present Tense. None knows them except a few. Historical evidence from the earliest Christian version of this story comes from the Syrian bishop, Jacob of Sarugh (c. 450-521), in the 6th-century.
Another significant Quranic proof ?
AQ 1825 - And they remained in their cave for three hundred years and exceeded by nine
Historical evidence shows that the persecution of the so called Christians in the Roman Empire occurred over a period of about three centuries until the 313 Edict of Milan issued by Emperors Constantine and Licinius. This was the beginning of the era of official Christianity. A new religion was born. The Sleepers of the Cave slept in the year 13 and woke up 300 years later, in the year 313. 313 CE was the period where the persecutions to the believers stop. ALLAH THE EXALTED extended the lives of the Sleepers to another 9 years. They died in year 322. The 1st Nicene Creed was in the year 325.

Questions

How do you know Quran was written in the 4th Century?
How did the ARABS get their hands on the Quran?
Who started this conspiracy?
When was this conspiracy started?
Whose graves are in Al-Masjid an-Nibali, Medina, Saudi Arabia?
Who were Abu Bakr, Omar, Usman and Ali? Were they legend?
If Muhammad (P) existed during 4th Century, don't you think his tomb would have been visited by Muslims?

Peace.

Hizbullah

Peace

Not really. There is evidence that Muhammad (P) existing during the 7th Century.

http//www.islamic-awareness.org/History/Islam/Inscriptions/earlysaw.html

At that time a certain man from along those same sons of Ismael, whose name was Mahmet , a merchant, as if by God's command appeared to them as a preacher the path of truth. He taught them to recognize the God of Abraham, especially because he was learnt and informed in the history of Moses. Now because the command was from on high, at a single order they all came together in unity of religion. Abandoning their vain cults, they turned to the living God who had appeared to their father Abraham. So, Mahmet legislated for them not to eat carrion, not to drink wine, not to speak falsely, and not to engage in fornication. He said 'With an oath God promised this land to Abraham and his seed after him for ever. And he brought about as he promised during that time while he loved Ismael. But now you are the sons of Abraham and God is accomplishing his promise to Abraham and his seed for you. Love sincerely only the God of Abraham, and go and seize the land which God gave to your father Abraham. No one will be able to resist you in battle, because God is with you.

It is not referring to the Quranic Last prophet of ALLAH - MUHAMMAD - THE PRAISE ONE. The Quranic Last Prophet of ALLAH was descended from Prophet Ishaq and NOT Prophet Ismael. It is referring to someone who took the name of Muhammad.

Q) Where was Prophet Muhammad (P) located?
Q) Any historical / archeological evidence?
Q) If he was supposedly existed before 4th Century, why is it that NOBODY ever mentioned him?

The Prophet was a Rasulan-Nabiy just like Prophet Ismael and Prophet Musa. He was sent to ALL nations.

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9607488.0

Holy Quran 0279 -So woe to those who write the "Book" with their own hands, then say, "This is from ALLAH ," in order to exchange it for a small price. Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they earn.
Let?s look at the verse which is one of the Quranic evidence, proving that the Quran was sent down during Nicaea. I will segregate the verse into A & B

A. So woe to those who write the "Book" with their own hands, then say, "This is from ALLAH," in order to exchange it for a small price.
Look at the imperfect verb , shows that the sentence in Present Tense. It proofs that the Quran was sent down during the time when a Book was written. This can only be during the Creed of Nicaea in 325, when the Romans under Constantine created the Bible. This was the time when the distortion of the Book of ALLAH started.

If you read it in the context it's talking about Jews corrupting the scriptures.

Please read 270-79.

275 Do you expect that they will believe you when a party of them hear the Word of ALLAH, then alter (yuarrifnahu) it after they have understood it, and they well know the consequences thereof.
278 Among them are gentiles who do not know the scripture, except through hearsay, then assume that they know it.

There were no gentiles in Council if Nicea.

I can be wrong but are you emphasizing that Muhammad (P) was near NIcea?

If you read the verses in context you will find that they were not Jews. Jews are consider "People of the Book". The verse says..

278 Among them are UMMIYUNA - WHO HAVE NO KNOWLEDGE OF THE BOOK EXCEPT HEARSAY and indeed they only conjectured.

UMMIYUNA means those who have no knowledge of the Book. So it is not referring to the Jews but to the Greco-Romans who have no knowledge of the Book of Musa. They were the ones who created the NT and distort the OT .

Also please read 0320

So if they dispute with you say "I have submitted myself to Allah, and (so have) those who follow me.'' And say to those who were given the Book (Jews and Nasara) and to those who have no knowledge of the Book "Do you (also) submit yourselves'' If they do, they are rightly guided; but if they turn away, your duty is only to convey the Message; and Allah sees the servants.

There is no historical proof of Constantine paying churches to agree upon one canon. What is the author's source if this information?
The First Council of Nicea purpose was settlement of the Christological issue of the nature of the Son of God and his relationship to God the Father(addressing Ariunism heresy),the construction of the first part of the Creed of Nicaea, establishing uniform observance of the date of Easter, and promulgation of early canon law.
And definitely, nobody was writing books in Council of Nicea.

Quranic evidence proof that the church was bribed.

So woe to those who write the "Book" with their own hands, then say, "This is from ALLAH," in order to exchange it for a small price. Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they earn.

Christianity was established officially in 4th Century CE by Constantine. It is plausible his father Constantius I, had plan of its doctrine and some scriptures were wrote prior to the Creed of Nicea.

The ANTIQUITY of the Hebrew Bible (Old Testament).

Constantine needed some religious literature that was old, which was NOT Greek, and which could be used as a platform. It had to have an antiquity comparable to the Greek and Egyptian histories. Somehow, he came across the Hebrew Bible - possibly in the library of Caesarea, and possibly translated by Origen. of ALLAH! He was commanded to instruct them...

0568 - Say, "O People of the Book, you are on nothing until you uphold the Taurat and the Injeel and what has been revealed to you from your Lord." And that which has been revealed to you from your Lord will surely increase many of them in transgression and disbelief. So do not grieve over the disbelieving people.

AQ 0515 O People of the Book, there had come to you Our Messenger making clear to you much of what you conceal of the Book and obliterate much. There has come to you from Allah a light and a clear Book.

The above verse proofs that the last Prophet came at the time when the hidings and obliteration of the Book were being carried out and at the time when the Quran was first sent down.

Not historically true. This is religious conspiracy theory. Internet scholarship. I would highly recommend Prof. Bart Ehrman's lectures From Jesus to Constantine on early Christian history.

You can call what ever you want to. It does not matter to me. What matters to me most is the Quran. The Quran show me the history of it and the Last Prophet.

These are the verses of ALLAH which We recite to you in truth. Then in what statement after ALLAH and His verses will they believe?

So Mr Tarek, whose words do you trust, our CREATOR or Prof. Bart Ehrman's?

Questions

How do you know Quran was written in the 4th Century?
How did the ARABS get their hands on the Quran?
Who started this conspiracy?
When was this conspiracy started?
Whose graves are in Al-Masjid an-Nibali, Medina, Saudi Arabia?
Who were Abu Bakr, Omar, Usman and Ali? Were they legend?
If Muhammad (P) existed during 4th Century, don't you think his tomb would have been visited by Muslims?
Grammatical rules tells me that the Quran was written in the 3rd / 4th Century.
The Quranic Last Prophet of ALLAH was sent to nations, the Arabs was / are one of them.
The Arabs
5th Century, when the cursive musnad script of the Quran was change to Jazm script. That was the beginning of the Arabization of the Middle East. The Sanaa Codex was written in the Jazm script. That means, the Quran was already present before the birth of the so called Arab prophet in the 570 CE. The Kufic script of the Quran was first used by the Abbassiah Caliphate in the 7th Century when they established themselves in Kuffah, the present Iraq.
No one
They were all fictitious character just like Khadijah and Aishah
For what? so that the muslims would become prophet worshipper where we can see for ourselves at present in Medina. Millions of Muslims went there and worship the so called Arab prophet.

Peace

tarekkhan29

Hizbullah,

The 3rd / 4th Century CE was the era of corruption of the first edition of the Book of ALLAH. I reject the legend that it was circulated by Ptolemy of Egypt in the 2nd century BCE on the basis of zero evidence.
The above verse proofs that the last Prophet came at the time when the hidings and obliteration of the Book were being carried out and at the time when the Quran was first sent down.
If Prophet Muhammad?s ministry was in the 7th Century CE, 300 years after Nicea, what is the point of warning when the Book had already been distorted! Do you think is going to be easy.

That is totally incorrect. Torah was textually corrupted even before the arrival of Jesus(P) let alone Muhammad(P). How do we know that? Read Jeremiah 88

?How can you say, ?We are wise, and the law (Torah) of the LORD is with us??
But behold, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie.

Here Jeremiah is admitting that scribes had perverted the truth of the law (Torah) into a lie.

Secondly, Deut 34 which is a last book of Torah (supposedly authored by Moses) talks about his funeral, is now widely accepted by both Jewish and Christian scholars as a fabrication and interpolation.

Deuteronomy 345
5 So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD, 6 and he buried him in the valley in the land of Moab opposite Beth-peor; but no man knows the place of his burial to this day.
7 Moses was a hundred and twenty years old when he died; his eye was not dim, nor his natural force abated.
8 And the people of Israel wept for Moses in the plains of Moab thirty days; then the days of weeping and mourning for Moses were ended.

Comments
Some say that this was written by Joshua (Rabbi Abraham Ben Meir Ibn Ezra)

It is indeed not authored by Moshe. Perhaps either Joshua or one of his followers. (Torah- The Modern Commentary by Rabbi Gunther Plaut).

Thirdly, the translation of Old Testament from Hebrew to Greek (Septuagint LXX) has lots of mistakes in it (which existed before Prophet Muhammad (P)) as compared to Masoretic Text.

So your ?The 3rd / 4th Century CE was the era of corruption of the first edition of the Book of ALLAH? theory goes out of the window.

Christianity was established officially in 4th Century CE by Constantine. It is plausible his father Constantius I, had plan of its doctrine and some scriptures were wrote prior to the Creed of Nicea.
The ANTIQUITY of the Hebrew Bible (Old Testament).
Constantine needed some religious literature that was old, which was NOT Greek, and which could be used as a platform. It had to have an antiquity comparable to the Greek and Egyptian histories. Somehow, he came across the Hebrew Bible - possibly in the library of Caesarea, and possibly translated by Origen. .

?Greco-Romans ?not only had knowledge of Book of Moses but also the entire Old Testament. They had Septuagint (LXX) is their possession which is a Greek translation of Hebrew Bible.

Just try to understand the fallacy in your statement. Let?s say for the sake of argument I agree with you. If they have NO knowledge of the book, then how can they corrupt it? How can you corrupt something of which you don?t possess no knowledge of? Secondly, how did you reach the conclusion that the verse 278 is talking about Book of Moses? If so then how come New Testament quotes Torah (Book of Moses) 100 TIMES. How can they quote Torah if they don?t have any knowledge about it? That doesn?t make any sense.

Now let?s talk about who corrupted the scriptures in 275-278

275 Do you then hope that they(the Jews)would believe in you, and a party from among them(the Jews) indeed used to hear the Word of Allah, then altered(yuarrifnahu) it after they(the Jews) had understood it, and they(The Jews) know

(So it is established here beyond the show of the doubt that Jews did corrupt the scriptures)

276 And when they (The Jews) meet those who believe they say We (The Jews) believe, and when they (The Jews) are alone one with another they say Do you talk to them (The Jews) of what Allah has disclosed to you that they (The Jews) may contend with you by this before your Lord? Do you not then understand?

277 Do they not know that Allah knows what they keep secret and what they make known?

278 Among them are gentiles who do not know the scripture, except through hearsay, then assume that they know it.

(Gentiles do not know the scripture. They except through heresay.)

279 Therefore, woe to those (The Jews) who distort the scripture with their own hands, then say, "This is what GOD has revealed," seeking a cheap material gain. Woe to them for such distortion, and woe to them for their illicit gains.

?Woe to those!? Who is this referring to? This is NOT referring to the Gentiles, because they had no knowledge of the book hence they cannot corrupt it. But rather it?s referring to the people who altered / wrote / added / edited book of Allah i.e The Jews. How do we know this? Go back to 275 it clearly states that the Jews distorted (yuarrifnahu) the scripture.

So Mr Tarek, whose words do you trust, our CREATOR or Prof. Bart Ehrman's?

I agree with Quran where religious guidance is concerned. I also agree with Prof. Bart Ehrman where his expertise in the field are concerned. They are not in contradiction. What I don?t agree with is your interpretation imposed on the text. One that?s not consistent with the biblical history, one that is not consistent with historical context within the Quran.

Mr. Hizbullah I am staying with somebody and my access to computer is very limited. I?ll get back to the Prophet Muhammad?s lineage and the proof of his existence in 7th century using non Islamic sources in a week or so.

I do appreciate your time and your true efforts.

Peace.

almarh0m

Salamun Alaykum

Firstly, I would like to ask what "Biblical Corruption"? Secondly, if The Bible was a truly book from Allah than it is impossible for it to be corrupted. If one believes that the Bible is the lost Torah and Injeel, then they are accusing Allah or The God of failing to protect His words. As I do not believe The Bible is a book of revelation/message from God, there is no corruption in it. We either take what is good from it and apply it in our lives or treat the people who believes in them with respect regardless of our view of The Bible.

As for what The Qur'an say about corruption/invention of "holy books/writings, The Qur'an is very clear on that. Please read Qur'an 278-79 and 378-79. My own understanding is that the so called Bible has nothing to do with either Taurat and injeel but is is a compilation of many writings and extracts from various other writings which predated the the Bible as we know it today. although, there is no doubting about some verses of the Taurat and injeel somehow found their way into the bible, by no means renders the bible a "corrupted copy" of the Torah or Injeel. It is worth a look at what Allah and His Messenger say in The Qur'an regarding Unchange-ability or Un-alterability of the words of God as we shall see below;

6114...... Afaghayra Allahi abtaghee hakaman wahuwa allathee anzala ilaykumu alkitaba mufassalan waallatheena ataynahumu alkitaba yaAAlamoona annahu munazzalun min rabbika bialhaqqi fala takoonanna mina almumtareena

Say "Shall I seek for judge other than Allah? - when He it is Who hath sent unto you the Book, explained in detail." They know full well, to whom We have given the Book, that it hath been sent down from thy Lord in truth. Never be then of those who doubt.

6115......Watammat kalimatu rabbika sidqan waAAadlan la mubaddila likalimatihi wahuwa alssameeAAu alAAaleemu

The word of thy Lord doth find its fulfilment in truth and in justice None can change His words for He is the one who heareth and knoweth all.

From this verse ( 6115), it is safe to conclude that the words of god cannot be changed or corrupted by any human or Jinn.

Salam

almarh0m

Man_of_Faith

?How can you say, ?We are wise, and the law (Torah) of the LORD is with us??
But behold, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie.

They basically corrupted the two first commandments and reinforced the third to exaggerated levels, i.e. no vain talk, meaning no one can even question anything or have a hard time doing it without people telling them they are indulging in "vain words".

The corruption of the two first commandments is really having a huge impact on the faith. The first was to keep inseparably to the Being of unity and the second was not to erect any image of anything from either Heaven (abstract) or Earth (physical) and worship it.

Both were bitterly corrupted into heavily making a separation of the Sustainer phenomenon while it was never intended to be separate from oneself. The Sustainer said to Moses "I am who am I" and that is the third-person meaning of allah since then although clerics have corrupted is due to sinister motives or merely ignorance.

Rabb is the word for "God" although they are not equal in meaning and not allah and has always been. No righteous person says ya allah in Quran for a reason and why it is narrated in plural reference very often.

Be well

FreedomStands

Salamun Alaykum

Firstly, I would like to ask what "Biblical Corruption"? Secondly, if The Bible was a truly book from Allah than it is impossible for it to be corrupted. If one believes that the Bible is the lost Torah and Injeel, then they are accusing Allah or The God of failing to protect His words. As I do not believe The Bible is a book of revelation/message from God, there is no corruption in it. We either take what is good from it and apply it in our lives or treat the people who believes in them with respect regardless of our view of The Bible.

As for what The Qur'an say about corruption/invention of "holy books/writings, The Qur'an is very clear on that. Please read Qur'an 278-79 and 378-79. My own understanding is that the so called Bible has nothing to do with either Taurat and injeel but is is a compilation of many writings and extracts from various other writings which predated the the Bible as we know it today. although, there is no doubting about some verses of the Taurat and injeel somehow found their way into the bible, by no means renders the bible a "corrupted copy" of the Torah or Injeel. It is worth a look at what Allah and His Messenger say in The Qur'an regarding Unchange-ability or Un-alterability of the words of God as we shall see below;

6114...... Afaghayra Allahi abtaghee hakaman wahuwa allathee anzala ilaykumu alkitaba mufassalan waallatheena ataynahumu alkitaba yaAAlamoona annahu munazzalun min rabbika bialhaqqi fala takoonanna mina almumtareena

Say "Shall I seek for judge other than Allah? - when He it is Who hath sent unto you the Book, explained in detail." They know full well, to whom We have given the Book, that it hath been sent down from thy Lord in truth. Never be then of those who doubt.

6115......Watammat kalimatu rabbika sidqan waAAadlan la mubaddila likalimatihi wahuwa alssameeAAu alAAaleemu

The word of thy Lord doth find its fulfilment in truth and in justice None can change His words for He is the one who heareth and knoweth all.

From this verse ( 6115), it is safe to conclude that the words of god cannot be changed or corrupted by any human or Jinn.

Salam

almarh0m

If anything is corrupted, it is God who corrupted it ultimately.

Layth

Peace,

Musadiqan is closest to 'affirming'. The prophets affirmed what was previously revealed (they did not sanction what existed as is but revealed its corrections'. The request is for these people to rule by 'what God sent down', not 'by what they had' (there is a big difference in that small choice of words).

FreedomStands

Peace,

Musadiqan is closest to 'affirming'. The prophets affirmed what was previously revealed (they did not sanction what existed as is but revealed its corrections'. The request is for these people to rule by 'what God sent down', not 'by what they had' (there is a big difference in that small choice of words).

I like that!

Armanaziz

Salamun Alaikum.

For me 544-48 gives sufficient ground to believe that the Torah and Gospel were adequately preserved (at least till the time of Qur'an) for their respective communities to use them as shir'a (menifesto) and minhaz (open path).

However, I agree with MoF that we need to be careful about what Torah and Gospel mean. At least from Quranic perspective Torah is limited to the Law sent down on Moses and Gospel is the teaching of Jesus. While the book named "Bible" may contain the essence of Torah and Gospel in it, it also contains a lot of fables and conjectures added up by the scribes. So if the community of Torah and Gospel leave the core teaching in favor of those fables and conjectures that will be for their own detriment, just like for the community of Qur'an, if we leave the Qur'an in favor of fables and conjectures in the name of hadith - that will be for our own detriment.

May Allah guide us all to the straight route.

Regards,
Arman

huruf

That is the question, the nefarious habit of considering automatically that the Tawrah and the inyil that the Qur'an speaks about as The old testament and the new testament which make up the bible. That is the founding error from which all confusion ensues. That is very good for those fake christians or muslims who are interested in that linking, but it is not good at all for the sake of clarity and rigorous thinking.

That is also why I htink it is better most of the time to stick strictly to Qur'anic original terms, the same when we are dealing of prophets names. We cannot assign to the Qur'an assertions which are only made when translating something into something else taking it for granted.

Salaam

FreedomStands

That is the question, the nefarious habit of considering automatically that the Tawrah and the inyil that the Qur'an speaks about as The old testament and the new testament which make up the bible. That is the founding error from which all confusion ensues. That is very good for those fake christians or muslims who are interested in that linking, but it is not good at all for the sake of clarity and rigorous thinking.

That is also why I htink it is better most of the time to stick strictly to Qur'anic original terms, the same when we are dealing of prophets names. We cannot assign to the Qur'an assertions which are only made when translating something into something else taking it for granted.

Salaam

I'll add to that by saying the Bible is really hideous.

huruf

Already when translating froma semitis language to another there is a leap, the books of the old testment were translated to greek and the hebrew we have today is a translation from greek "back" to hebrew. Besides it is obvious, and bible followers, jews and christians have never hidden or pretended that it is not so, that the bible is not straight revelation from God but a mixture of material, some of it inspired. So it is no insult or demeaning of their religion to acknowledge something that they themselves know and accept. What is surprising is the attempt by some muslims to put the bible on the same standing as the Qur'an. Those christians or any other religion that consider the Qur'an a fake are in their right to think whatever they want of it, but it is indeed surprising that those who uphold the Qur'an want to give it the same standing that they give other scriptures which even those who have them as "their" scriptures vouch for them only up to a point.

The Bible, as you Freedom... say, has parts which are really shocking and disgusting.

Startin early that part of genesis 3.

To the woman he said,

?I will make your pains in childbearing very severe;
with painful labor you will give birth to children.
Your desire will be for your husband,
and he will rule over you.?

Childbirth pains as punishment for women is really vicious, and the second part

Your desire... which I think hss been embellished from earlier versions which were obviously rude and distasteful, puts is mildly but amounts to the same, and even the new formulation look a bit lame aas to expression. Nevertheless we get it, you will pant for the stud as a bitch and he will hand you as such.

Just that part is sufficient to run away a never look back. That cannot hsve bene written by a any man and I do not believe God has said it. Must have been some sick, deseased, male full of resentment for the womenfolk.

On the other hand the same genersis in 2. says something different, like this

So God created mankind in his own image,
in the image of God he created them;
male and female he created them.

That is more like the Qur'an, de simultaneous creation of both sexes. Then after it comes with the Adam and Eve stuff and goes haywire.

Obviously there must be a historical explanation for that Adam and Eve stuff, but then nothing to do with revelation and real creation as determined by God.

There hundreds more of shocking bible stuff but that is a handfull to start with.

Salaam

FreedomStands