WHAT DOES QURAN SAY ABOUT BIBLICAL CORRUPTION
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Freedomstands,
The Father is also in me and I am in the Father. No big deal. Such is the result of "separating the spirit from the flesh".
Be well
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Freedomstands,
The Father is also in me and I am in the Father. No big deal. Such is the result of "separating the spirit from the flesh".
Be well
Yeah, it is no big deal to me either.
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When I say Jesus of the Gospels , I meant what the adherents of that faith believe in. Not how we interpret those very same Gospels.
Salamun Alaikum.
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Are you absolutely sure that all the adherents of Christian faith interpret the Gospels the same way? That all the adherents of Christian faith imagine Jesus to be a biological child of an entity named "God"? Or that Christians believe in 3 Gods? Did you get a chance to study the writings of Mother Terresa? Or those of Father Desmond Tutu?
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If you are referring to how the majority of the Christians interpret the Gospels - then ask yourself do you interpret the Qur'an the same way that the majority of the Muslims interpret the Qur'an?
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If you do not follow the majority interpretation of Qur'an then ask yourself are you being fair and consistent to apply your best interpretation to Qur'an and by pushing the other scriptures aside to be read only in the light of how majority of their followers understand them?
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If you are not being fair and consistent on your treatment of the scriptures, then ask yourself are you not differentiating among the messengers?
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
Arman -
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Salamun Alaikum.
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Are you absolutely sure that all the adherents of Christian faith interpret the Gospels the same way? That all the adherents of Christian faith imagine Jesus to be a biological child of an entity named "God"? Or that Christians believe in 3 Gods? Did you get a chance to study the writings of Mother Terresa? Or those of Father Desmond Tutu?
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If you are referring to how the majority of the Christians interpret the Gospels - then ask yourself do you interpret the Qur'an the same way that the majority of the Muslims interpret the Qur'an?
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If you do not follow the majority interpretation of Qur'an then ask yourself are you being fair and consistent to apply your best interpretation to Qur'an and by pushing the other scriptures aside to be read only in the light of how majority of their followers understand them?
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If you are not being fair and consistent on your treatment of the scriptures, then ask yourself are you not differentiating among the messengers?
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
ArmanW/Salaam,
"1. Are you absolutely sure that all the adherents of Christian faith interpret the Gospels the same way? That all the adherents of Christian faith imagine Jesus to be a biological child of an entity named "God"? Or that Christians believe in 3 Gods? Did you get a chance to study the writings of Mother Terresa? Or those of Father Desmond Tutu?"
I don't know about their beliefs but are you talking about biblical unitarianism?
"2. If you are referring to how the majority of the Christians interpret the Gospels - then ask yourself do you interpret the Qur'an the same way that the majority of the Muslims interpret the Qur'an?"
The Christian interpretation of the Gospel is only one aspect of the issue for me. The other major one is that I believe that the Gospel (in its current form) constitutes 5% teachings of Jesus and 95% christian "Hadith" literature written by people other than the Prophet Jesus (PBUH). If I am going to start believing in Christian Hadith then why deny the Muslim hadith which has comparatively much greater credibility in its preservation?
"3. If you do not follow the majority interpretation of Qur'an then ask yourself are you being fair and consistent to apply your best interpretation to Qur'an and by pushing the other scriptures aside to be read only in the light of how majority of their followers understand them?"
I would give the bible the very same scrutiny if I believed that the bible had been preserved in its original form. Right now it is near impossible to judge what is original and what is a later addition. The only yardstick I have is the Quran. If the verses of the bible match what the Quran says then I have no issue in following both. However, when things like, Jesus dieng on the cross for our sins show up in the bible, or God wrestling with Jacob etc then I set it aside and consider it be a faulty book.
"4. If you are not being fair and consistent on your treatment of the scriptures, then ask yourself are you not differentiating among the messengers?"
This has nothing to do with differentiating between the Messengers. All messengers were great men of God and brought us the same message. The last message i.e. the Quran is the only one in its complete and unaltered form. Hence, we use it to determine the right and the wrong within the scripture books of the Jews and the Christians.
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The Christian interpretation of the Gospel is only one aspect of the issue for me. The other major one is that I believe that the Gospel (in its current form) constitutes 5% teachings of Jesus and 95% christian "Hadith" literature written by people other than the Prophet Jesus (PBUH). If I am going to start believing in Christian Hadith then why deny the Muslim hadith which has comparatively much greater credibility in its preservation?
Salam UserOnlyOneGod and others.
546 And We made Jesus son of Mary follow their footsteps - confirming what was up until him (literally between his hands) of the Torah, and We gave him the Gospel ? in it guidance and light, and confirming what was up until it (literally between its hands) of the Torah and guidance and instruction for the conscious.
547 And let the fraternity of the Gospel judge with what Allah has sent down in it. And whoever does not judge with what Allah has sent down then they are the ones ? they are willfully disobeying.
(My personal translation, cross checking is recommended.)
The Gospels we have with us today were canonized in third and fourth century before Qur'an was sent down. So per my humble understanding Qur'an does not support the idea of wholesale rejection of the Gospels.
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
Arman -
The Biblical Gospels are of higher integrity than 5%. It is quite thorough actually, but the translations are poor and definitions misinterpreted.
Son of God is entirely on spiritual level where God is the "Father" of the Spirit inherent in every human soul. And only those who "separate the Spirit from the flesh" (its delusional effect) can see the Father and Spirit. Father does not imply any gender but the word stems from the Semitic languages and would mean that you are an initiator of life.
Be well
Emanuel -
Yes thankyou .. somehow some people here don't understand the difference between the two. Denying the authenticity of the bible in its current form has nothing to do with denying the prophethood or the validity of Jesus (pbuh) or Moses (pbuh).
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You say they were canonized in the 3rd and 4th centuries. Do you then accept that they were written by people other than Jesus? Is this not their "hadith" literature?
Is this the unaltered injil mentioned in the Quran?
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Although the word Gospel means similar to Injeel, plus in some languages you say Evangelicum, for example, in Swedish which is a form of the original Injeel. Ev - enjeel - icum.
Be well
Emanuel -
The words mae mean whatever they mean, but the question is what is being spoken of when they are used. The injil given to Isa cannot be the four books of the gospel writers which are comprised the New testament together with many other writings from different authors. They might be coments to the injil some collection of quotes from the injil without any quotation marks...
but they are not the injil.
Salaam
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Well, the message Eisua came with is what people call Enjeel. The Biblical Gospels are testimonies written by his followers, and the four canonical ones are not the best ones. There are unofficial versions that convey a better account.
But there is no real Enjeel just as no Torateh. People could look forever. The Ten Commandments could be regarded as Torateh.
People always look for religious rules but there simply is no more than the decree of ten statutes. Quran is just a compilation with Wisdom on how to deal with the Ten Commandments, just as what Eisua came with. Plus Quran explains the nature of "God" very well, to the point that what Eisua said about God comes forth very well. I consider the translation of the word Quran to be 'The Testament'.
And Eisua's name means something like Dispenser (of knowledge).
And what I think Injeel refers to is the announcement "Reform, the Kingdom is at hand" and that he showed the way. He elaborated on the ancient decree.
Be well
Emanuel -
The Qur'an calls injil, not the people. Qe are talking about qhat the Qur'an says, not about what the people call or anything like that.
So in the gospels of the four collected authors in the bible (there are many more gospels) there are wise things which could have been handed down by some fisciples or something. So there we are again, why hadith on gospels is virtuous but hadith on the Qur'an is not?
Not that I want to certify the hadith, but why that thirst to certify hadith on some things and hate to certify hadith on others.
If the gospels are good, so be it, be they the inyil or be they not, be they written by anybody if they are good they are good and if not the are not, but what is the need to "authenticate" them?
Salaam
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You say they were canonized in the 3rd and 4th centuries. Do you then accept that they were written by people other than Jesus? Is this not their "hadith" literature?
Is this the unaltered injil mentioned in the Quran?
I accept and recognize that the Canonized Gospels we have today were written by people other than Jesus. For all possible likelihood they were written by unnamed scribes based on narrations from certain disciples of Jesus.
"Is this not their Hadith literature?" - depends on how you define "hadith". In pure linguistic sense "Hadith" means a narrative. Yes, from that sense Gospels are hadith and the Qur'an is also hadith (Q 487).
If you are asking how I evaluate the reliability of the Gospels - I do not take the comments of the authors in the Bible as authoritative or infallible. However, I believe the stories of Jesus and the statements attributed to Jesus that we find in the Gospels are what left of the "Injil" with us today.
Based on verses 547 and 568 of the Qur'an it is my understanding that at least at the time of Qur'an being revealed the "Injil" was protected to the extent that it included right guidance sufficient to guide their communities. And based on the historical accounts, the Gospels that we have today are pretty much similar to what Christians had at the time of Qur'an being revealed.
There is of course the other hypothesis that Qur'an is talking about a different Jesus and different Gospel / Injil from the Jesus and Gospel that Christians follow today. The authentic Jesus and Gospel are apparently all lost in time. Should that have been the case, it makes very little sense to me why an All-Knowing God would make the statement "Let the fraternity of Gospels Judge with it ..." (Q 547) as an standing instruction in Qur'an to be followed by the followers of the Qur'an till the end of time.
I am rather convinced that just like the "reminder (Dhikr)" in Qur'an enjoys divine protection, the key accounts and teaching of the Christ also enjoys divine protection (as part of God's promise to the Christ as we can see in Q 355). In the same manner, the commandments / law (Torah) sent upon Moses also enjoy divine protection - within what's left of Torah with us today; although the books named "Old Testament" include lots of fictional stories in addition to the Torah. Whoever follows the messenger in good faith and due sincerity not compromising his/her God gifted sense of right and wrong, nor taking the scribes and story tellers as infallible partners to God - are equally entitled to right guidance and salvation. That is the standard that I follow in not differentiating between the messengers.
That is of course a matter of belief / understanding. We are all accountable for sincere application of our own understanding.
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Best regards,
Arman -
I accept and recognize that the Canonized Gospels we have today were written by people other than Jesus. For all possible likelihood they were written by unnamed scribes based on narrations from certain disciples of Jesus.
"Is this not their Hadith literature?" - depends on how you define "hadith". In pure linguistic sense "Hadith" means a narrative. Yes, from that sense Gospels are hadith and the Qur'an is also hadith (Q 487).
If you are asking how I evaluate the reliability of the Gospels - I do not take the comments of the authors in the Bible as authoritative or infallible. However, I believe the stories of Jesus and the statements attributed to Jesus that we find in the Gospels are what left of the "Injil" with us today.
Based on verses 547 and 568 of the Qur'an it is my understanding that at least at the time of Qur'an being revealed the "Injil" was protected to the extent that it included right guidance sufficient to guide their communities. And based on the historical accounts, the Gospels that we have today are pretty much similar to what Christians had at the time of Qur'an being revealed.
There is of course the other hypothesis that Qur'an is talking about a different Jesus and different Gospel / Injil from the Jesus and Gospel that Christians follow today. The authentic Jesus and Gospel are apparently all lost in time. Should that have been the case, it makes very little sense to me why an All-Knowing God would make the statement "Let the fraternity of Gospels Judge with it ..." (Q 547) as an standing instruction in Qur'an to be followed by the followers of the Qur'an till the end of time.
I am rather convinced that just like the "reminder (Dhikr)" in Qur'an enjoys divine protection, the key accounts and teaching of the Christ also enjoys divine protection (as part of God's promise to the Christ as we can see in Q 355). In the same manner, the commandments / law (Torah) sent upon Moses also enjoy divine protection - within what's left of Torah with us today; although the books named "Old Testament" include lots of fictional stories in addition to the Torah. Whoever follows the messenger in good faith and due sincerity not compromising his/her God gifted sense of right and wrong, nor taking the scribes and story tellers as infallible partners to God - are equally entitled to right guidance and salvation. That is the standard that I follow in not differentiating between the messengers.
That is of course a matter of belief / understanding. We are all accountable for sincere application of our own understanding.
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Best regards,
ArmanThe Gospels we know today are not the Gospels mentioned in the Quran
Several Pali and Chinese manuscripts from the first centuries of our age suggest a total of ? 42 soutra-s.? No one can say for sure what this number represents. But it could very well refer to the -as yet- little known collection of Aramean-Christian holy scriptures in existence during the first century. The word we use today to designate the text of the Gospel only applied to its content then (literally, it meant the Proclamation). Moreover, today?s ?gospels ? didn?t exist as such no specific term designated the memory aids or transcriptions of the twelve Apostles? preaching, whose only prescriptive value rested on oral teaching. According to the Judeo-Aramean way of counting, what we call today the ?Old Testament ? consisted of thirty books (the ?other writings ? being left aside), namely the five books of the Torah, the Psalms (=1 book), the six ?major prophets ? (i.e. Joshua, who is believed to have written the book of Joshua; Samuel, the presumed author of the books of Judges and Samuel; Jeremiah, the presumed author of the books of Kings and Jeremiah; Isaiah; Ezekiel, and the twelve ?minor prophets ?, from Hosea to Malachi), giving a total of 30. If one adds the twelve ?Memoirs of the Apostles ? mentioned by Papias and several oral Eastern traditions, one arrives at 42 texts. All these ?books ? must have been referred to as ?writings ? / ir? ?s in first-century Aramean. To be continued
.Quoted from my post http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9607731.0 on the origins of the term surah.
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Corrupted or not, the Bible should be looked at, and the people with what I consider a good heart will reject most of it with abhorrence. It doesn't matter the source, the source is always the same. What it says? Lots of wicked and despicable things.