Ramadhan inevitably a proper noun?
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Crosschecking the occurrences of qablikum http//corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=qbl#(218312), one will notice this is most of the time used to refer to those before Muhammad who were given the Scripture.
So, no in my opinion this is not ALL those before us, it refers to those to whom "saum" was decreed. These are the descendants of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Ishmael etc.
Eg see http//corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=5&verse=5#(551)
"those who were given the Book before you"
alladhna t l-kitba min qablikum
I think it's obvious this excludes people in china, japan, canada, the jungles etc. At least as far as I'm aware there were no Jews there in that time.
Peace
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But surely people all over the world did fast and did so for religious reasons and for God's sake, also they did rceive revelations. So Qablikum may refer to those mentionned int he Qur'an because they were indeed en some way of the same tradition as those who are addressed certainly not because they were the only ones who received scriptures or did fast, who are all over the world and the Qur'an in no uncertain terms says have received their messengers and warners.
If it is said qablicum it is because they do know by themselves thorugh their own traditions, but not because God did not address or enjoin saawm to others.
Salaam
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Peace Timur, others,
Very interesting discussion.
Any examples of proper nouns in the reading that clearly carry descriptive information about that noun?
How about "Muhammad"?
Peace
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Good example. Ramadhan is descriptive. Not a noun though in the sense of a proper month name. Ramadhan as a name for a month is a hadith-fabrication. For the contemporaries of Muhammad there was no such thing as a month named Ramadhan.
To me it is the month of atonement. Coinciding with the time when the abrahamic faith received the decree Musa revealing the second tablet. The month of Ashura.
The only valid question in this discussion seems to me do you believe in the abrogation of the fasting in the month of Ashura? I personally don't.
To me Gods infinite wisdom is showing in the verses describing the fasting God knows those turning back on their heels will start meddling with any calendar system they can lay their hands on, and thus does not specify the month by any name used in any calendar system known at that time but by description.
Fasting abrogated? Qibla abrogated? Salaat abrogated? Zakaat abrogated? What else? There is very little left to abrogate.
Peace
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Crosschecking the occurrences of qablikum http//corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=qbl#(218312), one will notice this is most of the time used to refer to those before Muhammad who were given the Scripture.
So, no in my opinion this is not ALL those before us, it refers to those to whom "saum" was decreed. These are the descendants of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Ishmael etc.
So the rest of the world are free not to fast???
Eg see http//corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=5&verse=5#(551)
"those who were given the Book before you"
alladhna t l-kitba min qablikum
5.5
This day are (all) things good and pure made lawful unto you. The food of the People of the Book is lawful unto you..........So everybody else's food is haram for you???
I think it's obvious this excludes people in china, japan, canada, the jungles etc. At least as far as I'm aware there were no Jews there in that time.
Peace
So Allah doesn't care about those people- no need to fast??? to get all that blessing???
peace
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So the rest of the world are free not to fast???
God guides whoever God chooses to guide and is most Merciful. Though one should consider Quran and older scripture is available to the majority of cultures.
5.5
This day are (all) things good and pure made lawful unto you. The food of the People of the Book is lawful unto you..........So everybody else's food is haram for you???
What I understand from that verse is that they share the same principles on halal food which is true still today (if you ignore some of the Rabbinic traditions).
So Allah doesn't care about those people- no need to fast??? to get all that blessing???
See my first answer.
Peace
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God guides whoever God chooses to guide and is most Merciful. Though one should consider Quran and older scripture is available to the majority of cultures.
What I understand from that verse is that they share the same principles on halal food which is true still today (if you ignore some of the Rabbinic traditions).
See my first answer.
Peace
So you think not the same message to all the communities?
"We have sent a messenger to every community, saying, "You shall worship God, and avoid idolatry" 1636
"We did not send any messenger before you except with the inspiration "There is no god except Me; you shall serve me alone" 2125
peace
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So you think not the same message to all the communities?
"We have sent a messenger to every community, saying, "You shall worship God, and avoid idolatry" 1636
"We did not send any messenger before you except with the inspiration "There is no god except Me; you shall serve me alone" 2125
peace
Quran makes a distinction in what it calls 'umma'. What is your understanding? Mine is tribes. Depending on context the tribes of the descendants of Abraham, Jacob, Ishmael, Musa, etc - in other instances the tribe of followers of the messenger.
Peace
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You can find an example of distinction in Jewish/christian ummah here
http//corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=5&verse=66#(5661)
and here
http//corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=7&verse=160#(71601)
ith'natay ashrata asban umaman
Quran says an ummah is capable to invent things about God which do not come from God. This excludes the identification of ummah as a community that has never heared about God. I find only example of ummah being either the tribes of the descendants or the tribe of Muhammad, who is to set a better example and be a witness over the existing tribes.
Peace
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You can find an example of distinction in Jewish/christian ummah here
http//corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=5&verse=66#(5661)
and here
http//corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=7&verse=160#(71601)
ith'natay ashrata asban umaman
Quran says an ummah is capable to invent things about God which do not come from God. This excludes the identification of ummah as a community that has never heared about God. I find only example of ummah being either the tribes of the descendants or the tribe of Muhammad, who is to set a better example and be a witness over the existing tribes.
Peace
2213
Mankind was one single nation/ Ummatan, and Allah sent Messengers with glad tidings and warnings; and with them He sent the Book in truth, to judge between people in matters wherein they differed; but the People of the Book, after the clear Signs came to them, did not differ among themselves, except through selfish contumacy. Allah by His Grace Guided the believers to the Truth, concerning that wherein they differed. For Allah guided whom He will to a path that is straight.Messenger go to every nation , and give Allah's message in their own languages - but will be a very similar message with the same basic guidelines.
I think.
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Peace 357,
Messenger go to every nation , and give Allah's message in their own languages - but will be a very similar message with the same basic guidelines.
I think.
Agreed. My extensive research and study of the real world evidence has led me to the same conclucion.
What I have found is that the basic fundamental message given to every nation in the entire universe (!) is the following
- Oneness of the Infinite Creator (the law of one).
- The law of free will.
- Importance of service to others (STO). AKA good deeds.
- Concept of an afterlife and spiritual/mental/physical progression.
Please ponder on this and you will find that from these basic principles you can derive what to do and how to spend your life in every possible scenario and situation, without needing any additional guidance.
Al-Quran expounds these basic principles in more detail and presents a practical system on how to apply these principles in our lives. The practical systems given to other nations might have some difference in the finer points but they are based on the same fundamental principles. For example in the grand scheme of things, sawm is not ESSENTIAL to attain the higher spiritual/mental/physical state in the next existence. Even in the quraanic system, it is only for mumineen.
2183 O you who believe/"alladhee aamanoo", fasting has been decreed for you as it was decreed for those before you, perhaps you may be righteous.
262 Surely those who believe; and those who are jewish, and the nazarenes, and the sabians, whoever of them believes in the god and the last day and does good works; they will have their recompense with their lord, and there is no fear upon them, nor will they grieve.
Peace and best regards.
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I think you are making a mistake interpreting ummah as nations/communities not associated with the tribes of the descendants.
You can easily check if this is true. What messenger was sent to eg cannibals in papua new-guinee? Another example would be tribes in the Amazon that never heared about the abrahamic faith whatsoever.
Peace
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Hi runninglikezebras,
Some messenger must have been sent to the Korowai tribe of New Guinea for them to have this belief
Kembaren and I spend the morning talking to Lepeadon and the young men about Korowai religion. Seeing spirits in nature, they find belief in a single god puzzling. But they too recognize a powerful spirit, named Ginol, who created the present world after having destroyed the previous four. For as long as the tribal memory reaches back, elders sitting around fires have told the younger ones that white-skinned ghost-demons will one day invade Korowai land. Once the laleo arrive, Ginol will obliterate this fifth world. The land will split apart, there will be fire and thunder, and mountains will drop from the sky. This world will shatter, and a new one will take its place. The prophecy is, in a way, bound to be fulfilled as more young Korowai move between their treehouses and downriver settlements, which saddens me as I return to our hut for the night.
Emphasis mine.
http//www.smithsonianmag.com/travel/sleeping-with-cannibals-128958913/?page=5
Peace
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I think you are making a mistake interpreting ummah as nations/communities not associated with the tribes of the descendants.
You can easily check if this is true. What messenger was sent to eg cannibals in papua new-guinee? Another example would be tribes in the Amazon that never heared about the abrahamic faith whatsoever.
Peace
why go that far when you can look at the present day muslims and say what messenger if any came to these people so they bow to a building and go around it and stay hungry one month in a year to please God! and believe everything is written only that happens what god wants!
confused
The Quran and revelation simply tell us to be better human beings and to observe the commands - which are basically regarding how we interact with others, Its all about our behaviour towards others nothing else.
Not here to teach anybody anything but simply to question some of the things people are doing and why.
peace
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Hi runninglikezebras,
Some messenger must have been sent to the Korowai tribe of New Guinea for them to have this belief
Emphasis mine.
http//www.smithsonianmag.com/travel/sleeping-with-cannibals-128958913/?page=5
Peace
Hi truthseeker11,
We are carrying this debate pretty far off topic don't you agree? I don't recognize an abrahamic faith in the Korowai tribal tradition. If you want to we can discuss this in a proper thread of its own in which I'm willing to further elaborate why I don't consider those forms of paganism compatible with abrahamic monotheism.
Peace
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Firstly, let us define the term "proper name." A proper name, in the words of the grammarian AzZamakhshar (died 1144), is "what is attached to a thing itself without extending to what resembles it."
Now, let us define the term "generic noun." A generic noun is "what is attached to a thing and to all that resembles it."
In other words, a proper name is a name that is applied to a single individual of a genus, whereas a generic name is applied to all individuals of a genus.
Example, horse is a generic noun that is applied to every individual of the genus of horses, whereas was the proper name of a single horse that lived and died in pre-Islamic Arabian history. Another example, human is a generic noun that is applied to every individual of the genus of humans, whereas , , , , and are proper names that are only applicable to specific individuals within the genus of humans.
Similarly, month is a generic noun that is applied to all months, whereas is a proper name that is applied only to a specific month, namely, the ninth lunar month of the Hijr calendar.
Native proper names occurring in the Quran are as follows
- Raman (2185), a proper name for the ninth lunar month of the Hijr calendar
- so-and-so (252, a metonymic proper name used in place of someone's real name
- Zayd (3337), a proper name for a male human
- All numeral nouns etc. (1121, 5106, 2228, etc.), the Classical Arabic language spells out its numerals as "one," "two," "three" etc. all of which are considered to be proper names of numerals
- Amad (616), if not used as a superlative epithet, otherwise, if used as a superlative epithet, then it is not a proper name
- glorification (1210, a proper name for the verbal noun of (please note, is always necessarily inflected in the accusative case due to the action of a suppressed verb, it is inflected here in the nominative case for illustrative purposes)
- the Pleiades (531 and 556), if used to refer to such, otherwise, if used with the meaning of plant or star, then it is not a proper name
- Friday (629), a proper name for the sixth day of the week in the Hijr calendar (please note, the sixth day of the Hijr week corresponds to the fifth day of the Gregorian week)
However, I regard the Quran's use of proper names as only one piece of evidence in understanding the mode of their use. Other evidence that I deem just as admissible are corpora formed from texts composed proximate to the century of the Quran's revelation to Muammad.
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Firstly, let us define the term "proper name." A proper name, in the words of the grammarian AzZamakhshar (died 1144), is "what is attached to a thing itself without extending to what resembles it."
Now, let us define the term "generic noun." A generic noun is "what is attached to a thing and to all that resembles it."
In other words, a proper name is a name that is applied to a single individual of a genus, whereas a generic name is applied to all individuals of a genus.
Example, horse is a generic noun that is applied to every individual of the genus of horses, whereas was the proper name of a single horse that lived and died in pre-Islamic Arabian history. Another example, human is a generic noun that is applied to every individual of the genus of humans, whereas , , , , and are proper names that are only applicable to specific individuals within the genus of humans.
Similarly, month is a generic noun that is applied to all months, whereas is a proper name that is applied only to a specific month, namely, the ninth lunar month of the Hijr calendar.
Native proper names occurring in the Quran are as follows
- Raman (2185), a proper name for the ninth lunar month of the Hijr calendar
@uq don't you think understanding Raman as a proper name for the ninth lunar month is highly problematic considering the Hijri calendar is a post-quranic design (authorized by caliph Umar never Muhammad)?
I also like to add, you still haven't proven the significance of the non-full inflection to be allowed for proper nouns. So far you only provided evidence of non-quranic words - showing a similar symptom - of which you claim they are proof of Classical (Quranic) Arabic. I feel you are still deceiving, at the least yourself and at the worst the reader.
Peace
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I'm surprised by your minimalist reaction. So how were those who were first recited Quran to supposed to understand Ramadhan as a month when the hijri calendar didn't even exist yet?
Peace