How much 'shirk' is OK?
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Let's say there's this Muslim, who is the top surgeon in the world and has won a Noble prize. He has contributed to science, saved countless lives, and is a philanthropist. He is humble, kind, and well-liked. Everyone would say that he's the best person they've ever met and would have absolutely nothing bad to say about him.
But every morning before going to work, he would bow down to a tree outside his house, praying that his day would go well. This little ritual doesn't actually affect his day and nobody else knows about it.
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Is what he's doing 'shirk'?
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If yes, then would all his work, his entire contributions to mankind, suddenly become nothing? All of it?
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How and why does it all become null and void when his ritual doesn't affect his day or his past contributions? How and why does bowing down to or praying to a tree cancel someone's entire work in life?
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Peace zayd, all.
I recommend a post in this thread.
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9606706.msg354418#msg354418
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GOOD deeds will never be nullified; however, the nobel prize won't be of any worth in the hereafter.
The question might be did he save the lives out of concern for the people, or because he wanted to be honored.Concerning the tree, it might happen that he will be in company of that tree instead of the company of God (but I am not the one to decide on that).
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How can we know that he attributes divinity to that tree. It all is a mere assumption that he does that out of considering that tree a kind of god. What if that tree symbolises for him his respect for God0s creation? a reminder that there is nature to take into account when he cures people? How can we know his true heart when he does that? what conclude, just like that, out of the blue that he is worshipping that tree?
That is why I said that only the person concerned can know whether he or she is still in shirk and to what degree. Nobody can pronnounce that for somebody else, because nobody knows well somebody elses heatfelt beliefs.
I do not think that anybody is in a condition to pronnounce that somenody else commits shirk, many times not even the person himself commits shirk.
But we are all better off if we analyse ourselves and lear to what extent are we still off real non association.
The consciousness of shirk I do not think is about judging others, but about improving ourselves, becoming purer ourselves.
Of course we all know that some people think more of money or wealth than in God, or so it appears, but it is not our job to brand them anything but just to bear it in mind and be better than that ourselves.
Salaam
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... every morning before going to work, would bow down to a tree outside his house, praying that his day would go well ...
Why would one beseech/pray to a tree (instead of G-D) in the first place!?
Does it answer his prayer/s!?
Who's to thank for his existence, his gifts and/or provisions?
The tree!? ... How ungrateful!SLM
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The question might be did he save the lives out of concern for the people, or because he wanted to be honored.
He does it out of concern for the people. He is a genuinely good person, but he prays to a tree for good luck, so to speak.
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9606706.msg354418#msg354418
Let's take the physical bowing out of the picture. He only closes his eyes and prays to the tree. Would you say that what he's doing a commitment/devotion to the tree? It's just a little ritual that takes a few seconds and doesn't actually affect his day or work. He doesn't do anything bad because of the tree.
I get what you're saying about not judging people, but for example says that you shouldn't marry a mushrik, so it's something that you should be able to tell, at least.
Imagine that you've been dating the surgeon, and right before marriage, he/she confesses to you about this ritual and does not intend to stop praying to the tree. Would you still proceed with the marriage?
And if what he does is 'shirk', how and why does it cancel his entire life's work?
It's not my intention to press for an immediate answer or anything. You don't have to reply if you don't feel like it. Hell, if you asked me the same questions, I wouldn't know how to answer them myself.
It's just that this is something that's been on my mind for quite some time, and I just wanna know what other people think of this. And even if it takes you weeks/months/years to think of something, please do share it with us. I appreciate all the comments. Salaam.
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Let's say there's this Muslim, who is the top surgeon in the world and has won a Noble prize. He has contributed to science, saved countless lives, and is a philanthropist. He is humble, kind, and well-liked. Everyone would say that he's the best person they've ever met and would have absolutely nothing bad to say about him.
But every morning before going to work, he would bow down to a tree outside his house, praying that his day would go well. This little ritual doesn't actually affect his day and nobody else knows about it.
-
Is what he's doing 'shirk'?
-
If yes, then would all his work, his entire contributions to mankind, suddenly become nothing? All of it?
-
How and why does it all become null and void when his ritual doesn't affect his day or his past contributions? How and why does bowing down to or praying to a tree cancel someone's entire work in life?
it does not become null and void, it actually has nothing to do with anyone accept himself - i think.
he is a perfect me- although i don't do that, all of us do something out of the ordinary i am sure. peace
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Let's say there's this Muslim, who is the top surgeon in the world and has won a Noble prize. He has contributed to science, saved countless lives, and is a philanthropist. He is humble, kind, and well-liked. Everyone would say that he's the best person they've ever met and would have absolutely nothing bad to say about him.
But every morning before going to work, he would bow down to a tree outside his house, praying that his day would go well. This little ritual doesn't actually affect his day and nobody else knows about it.
-
Is what he's doing 'shirk'?
-
If yes, then would all his work, his entire contributions to mankind, suddenly become nothing? All of it?
-
How and why does it all become null and void when his ritual doesn't affect his day or his past contributions? How and why does bowing down to or praying to a tree cancel someone's entire work in life?
Hi, thank you for your bad question!
If the Qur'an represents the accurate rules presented by the Ultimate Power which makes the rules, then anything that the Ultimate Power says, is what will be (if it represents what is going to be true).
It is not shirk to bow down in-front of a tree (there is always something in-front of someone when they are praying or worshiping). It is a shirk to say or think that bowing down in-front of this tree is what is going to help them or that the tree is a power of its own, a power besides Allah, a lesser power than Allah but still a power, or a greater power than the Ultimate.
If Allah has ruled and decreed that the rules of this particular session are such that those who dance on a Friday looking to the right are rendered null, then God does whatever God wills.
In this case, the Qur'an says it is considered a major crime to attribute power to anything but God. This is called "shirk" meaning "sharing" in normal accounts of the definition of the word.
The Qur'an says that the judgment is up to God alone, but that the works of people will be rendered null and void and they will not be forgiven for dying in a state of being a mushrik (shirk performer).
So how is he a "Muslim". He is a Hypocrite, and a polytheist, a Mushrik and not a Muslim.
A Muslim is one who surrenders to Allah only and acknowledge and Allah is the only power.
Furthermore, it should be noted that all his "deeds" are from Allah in the first place. His contributions to the world are not from himself, but from God (if you believe otherwise, you're really the mushrik in this case). So whatever kindness he has done, whatever charity, whatever accomplishments, whatever discoveries, all were done by Allah alone, he had no strength or ability to accomplish anything on his own, even his will to do such and such and his doing it came from Allah, and just like he is an empty vessel, Allah can decide what to do with clay vessels, placing them in the garden, the cupboard, the closet, a box, or into the fire. Allah creates and chooses and does what Allah wills, Allah is the Ultimate Power, there is no other Power.
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I get what you're saying about not judging people, but for example says that you shouldn't marry a mushrik, so it's something that you should be able to tell, at least.
Imagine that you've been dating the surgeon, and right before marriage, he/she confesses to you about this ritual and does not intend to stop praying to the tree. Would you still proceed with the marriage?
And if what he does is 'shirk', how and why does it cancel his entire life's work?
The thing is tyhat you ar neither in his mind nor in his heart to know the way, the real, deep motive or the meaning he has when he does that in fornt of the tree. No you don't. May be even he does not know. God knows.
So one should not marry a mushrik, fine, if you think that somebody is a mushrik and you think you are not, then do not marry that person. You may be right you may be wrong as to what he or she really is, but you act rightly if you avoid marrying a person that to you is a mushrik. But what you think or feel does not make that person a mushrik or a non mushrik. You are acting your yourself, for your own sake not as a judge of anybody.
About cancelling everything...
If somebody is as good as that I do not think the person is a mushrik. T me it is rather obvious. He may make a bad formulation of his beliefs, but most likely if he is honest, really self sacrificing for the good of others and all that, I do not think he is a mushrik, far from that. The tree makes him comfortable to collect himself, what is wrong with that. Don't we look for silence and recollection when we pray or want to do something right. What is wrong with a tree. Not for a second I have thought that he was praying th tree to do something for him...
Salaam
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The thing is tyhat you ar neither in his mind nor in his heart to know the way, the real, deep motive or the meaning he has when he does that in fornt of the tree. No you don't. May be even he does not know. God knows.
So one should not marry a mushrik, fine, if you think that somebody is a mushrik and you think you are not, then do not marry that person. You may be right you may be wrong as to what he or she really is, but you act rightly if you avoid marrying a person that to you is a mushrik. But what you think or feel does not make that person a mushrik or a non mushrik. You are acting your yourself, for your own sake not as a judge of anybody.
About cancelling everything...
If somebody is as good as that I do not think the person is a mushrik. T me it is rather obvious. He may make a bad formulation of his beliefs, but most likely if he is honest, really self sacrificing for the good of others and all that, I do not think he is a mushrik, far from that. The tree makes him comfortable to collect himself, what is wrong with that. Don't we look for silence and recollection when we pray or want to do something right. What is wrong with a tree. Not for a second I have thought that he was praying th tree to do something for him...
Salaam
Maybe people are forgetting, the first lesson humanity received was that God can create arbitrary rules. Remember it was said "don't go to that tree".
So God can make a rule or ruling on anything and can make a person do all sorts of good and then throw them in hell too.
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If the Qur'an represents the accurate rules presented by the Ultimate Power which makes the rules, then anything that the Ultimate Power says, is what will be (if it represents what is going to be true).
It is not shirk to bow down in-front of a tree (there is always something in-front of someone when they are praying or worshiping). It is a shirk to say or think that bowing down in-front of this tree is what is going to help them or that the tree is a power of its own, a power besides Allah, a lesser power than Allah but still a power, or a greater power than the Ultimate.
If Allah has ruled and decreed that the rules of this particular session are such that those who dance on a Friday looking to the right are rendered null, then God does whatever God wills.
In this case, the Qur'an says it is considered a major crime to attribute power to anything but God. This is called "shirk" meaning "sharing" in normal accounts of the definition of the word.
The Qur'an says that the judgment is up to God alone, but that the works of people will be rendered null and void and they will not be forgiven for dying in a state of being a mushrik (shirk performer).
So how is he a "Muslim". He is a Hypocrite, and a polytheist, a Mushrik and not a Muslim.
A Muslim is one who surrenders to Allah only and acknowledge and Allah is the only power.
Furthermore, it should be noted that all his "deeds" are from Allah in the first place. His contributions to the world are not from himself, but from God (if you believe otherwise, you're really the mushrik in this case). So whatever kindness he has done, whatever charity, whatever accomplishments, whatever discoveries, all were done by Allah alone, he had no strength or ability to accomplish anything on his own, even his will to do such and such and his doing it came from Allah, and just like he is an empty vessel, Allah can decide what to do with clay vessels, placing them in the garden, the cupboard, the closet, a box, or into the fire. Allah creates and chooses and does what Allah wills, Allah is the Ultimate Power, there is no other Power.
I'm not going to argue about free will here, but can you at least spot the contradiction in what you just wrote? It's something very fundamental and with major implications. I hope you'll be able to find it and change your mind some day, Insha Allah.
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I'm not going to argue about free will here, but can you at least spot the contradiction in what you just wrote? It's something very fundamental and with major implications. I hope you'll be able to find it and change your mind some day, Insha Allah.
Instead of being incredibly cruel, why don't you be so kind to point it out, and mention the implications as well. You hope that I'll change my mind from "Allah is the only power, the absolute, determiner of everything" to what? Don't worry about arguing, help me, please tell me the problems, don't leave it to me to find it.
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Freedomstands lacks patience and has pride in his interpretation. It is suggested that he calms down and gets himself together, and starts to use logic.
This is advice only.
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Freedomstands lacks patience and has pride in his interpretation. It is suggested that he calms down and gets himself together, and starts to use logic.
This is advice only.
I think it would be wise if FreedomStands would heed such advice. That is if it is actually true that FreedomStands lacks patience and has pride in his interpretation, since FreedomStands is a bit of a fraud and can't really be trusted at all. Could be up to his games like he blatantly mentioned in other posts. Weird person that he is, one never knows what he is quite up to, a liar and an actor, constant drama with him, that he calls "comedy", yeah right, who is laughing?
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These are troubling questions. I have been friends with good polytheists, but then again, I am aware of stuffs like this
<a href="http//www.ibtimes.co.uk/india-man-beheaded-suspected-sacrifice-better-harvest-1504156">Man beheaded in ritual sacrifice for a better harvest</a>
<a href="http//www.ibtimes.co.uk/indian-woman-beheaded-human-sacrifice-black-magic-530535">Woman Beheaded in Gory Tantrik Ritual</a>
<a href="http//www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/centralamericaandthecaribbean/mexico/9177633/Children-sacrificed-to-Mexicos-cult-of-Saint-Death.html">Children 'sacrificed' to Mexico's cult of Saint Death</a>
<a href="http//latino.foxnews.com/latino/news/2015/06/17/satanic-ritual-details-emerge-in-gruesome-murder-texas-teen/">Satanic ritual details emerge in gruesome murder of Texas teen</a>However, from observation, I came to conclusion that one false thing leads to another. In this case, if someday the man decides that the tree is not giving him the luck, he may end up looking for it in another object. In one of my friend's case, it was first a palm reader, then tarot reader followed by the feeling that old items and houses bring bad luck. Another had a family which saw bad luck in women's short hair o
I would like to add that even some Muslims are guilty of doing this. But at the end of the day, its Allah's right to judge.
As for marriage, just like Islam, polytheism is a way of life and not exactly a religion. If a Muslim person thinks it would not be hindrance in his life then he should feel free to marry the polytheist woman. That said, this is how I feel about all marriages regardless of what religions the couples have. Love is not a game at all.
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I am not adding humor in it, Freedomstands. Not laughing.
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People could think my way of seeing things as polytheism, but it is a kind of "Mono-pantheism". There is still one way mightier than you. But God works on symbiotic level with the Spirit. Your soul not clouded by the body is part of the Spirit. The dynamics of God is actually simple yet esoteric to understand.
We are independent beings, but part of God's Spirit is within us to form a kind of symbiosis. In ways it makes it polytheism by the truth. A very strong-spirited person shares qualities with God, yet he or she is not separate but one and the same. You're self-conscious, but still aware in God. The functionality of your thinking will be improved and you can almost hear a voice in your mind yet more feeling like telepathy. It is difficult to explain, and the newest in my transcendence is actually new to me.
I have written it before, that the Rabb/Sustainer is like a network platform where there are many nodes connected with various strengths in the transmission of their signal. You cannot become better than your hardware, but you can transmit at the peak rate if the signal is stable without interference. Your body is that interference.
Another parable is the 'Borg' in Star Trek who are all connected to a mainframe and they are linked on a network, sharing the assimilation synchronously. In that way each unit is sharing and contributing to the maximum capacity.
Be well
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He does it out of concern for the people. He is a genuinely good person, but he prays to a tree for good luck, so to speak.
Let's take the physical bowing out of the picture. He only closes his eyes and prays to the tree. Would you say that what he's doing a commitment/devotion to the tree? It's just a little ritual that takes a few seconds and doesn't actually affect his day or work. He doesn't do anything bad because of the tree.
I get what you're saying about not judging people, but for example says that you shouldn't marry a mushrik, so it's something that you should be able to tell, at least.
Imagine that you've been dating the surgeon, and right before marriage, he/she confesses to you about this ritual and does not intend to stop praying to the tree. Would you still proceed with the marriage?
And if what he does is 'shirk', how and why does it cancel his entire life's work?
It's not my intention to press for an immediate answer or anything. You don't have to reply if you don't feel like it. Hell, if you asked me the same questions, I wouldn't know how to answer them myself.
It's just that this is something that's been on my mind for quite some time, and I just wanna know what other people think of this. And even if it takes you weeks/months/years to think of something, please do share it with us. I appreciate all the comments. Salaam.
Do you have a problem with my answer?
It is shirk. See that dot there? It is a period. <- behold! another one!
This is an exclamation mark ->!
Watch this IT IS SHIRK!
Those are capital letters.
IF ANYONE AT ALL HOLDS IN THEIR HEART OF HEARTS, MIND OF MINDS, THAT THERE IS ANOTHER "LUCK" OR POWER BESIDES ALLAH ALONE, THAT DETERMINES WHAT IS DONE OR WHAT ALLAH DOES, THEN THEY ARE DISEASED WITH SHIRK.
You might have "difficulty answering" because of the shirk inside of you too, the one that says "oh but that is unjust, and God is bound up by what I imagine to be justice or the power of Justice is ruling over God determining what God decides".
Only stupid people who are not sure in their religion will have trouble answering this question which is so easy.
Do I know if such a man will go to hell or not? NO, because Allah determines, and I don't know.
Yet, what I do know is the following statements, NOTICE HOW THEY ARE CAREFULLY WORDED
The Qur'an says that a person who dies while in the state of shirk will not be forgiven for it.
The ones who are considered disbelievers and evildoers and liars are said to go to hell.
Shirk means "sharing", it means a "share in the power" a co-determiner, helper or otherwise.
Islam is the belief in the Ultimate as the only power and surrendering to the realization that there is no other power but God, ashadhu unlaw illaha il lil lah!
How demented can a person be in this religion that they don't even know its most basic principles?
Shirk is the DIRECT OPPOSITE of the Islamic monotheism.
Shirk attributes partners and co-powers and co-determiners to God alone.
In ancient times, the "partners" were often words for concepts like "Justice" "Love" "Righteousness" and things like that.
They were said to withhold and manipulate God or alter God's decisions.
Today people take themselves as determiners of God's will, rather than the other way around.
So if one harbors the idea that "my prayer to the tree" or even less "my thought of the tree" and "the tree blesses me" "it is not the Ultimate who blesses me, but the tree blesses me" then they are doing SHIRK.
It is also shirk to say "the tree has been given free rein to bless me by God" and any other variants.
There is no such thing, there are no intercessors, there is only the Ultimate and the Ultimate creates everything whatsoever, all the experiences, no one can harm you or help you, bless you or curse you, it is all God doing everything and working everything.
Is it still a puzzling question in your mind?
Go ahead and teach me how I'm wrong in what I'm saying.