Can we have concensus?
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That's a good question. It's so difficult to think beyond the constraints of time
that are bound to us in this reality. If we try to think outside time, must one know everything?
Or is it possible to know everything and nothing at the same time?We do have Quran Kareem to guide us.
He said, "Now we have to part company. But I will explain to you everything you could not stand.
"As for the ship, it belonged to poor fishermen, and I wanted to render it defective. There was a king
coming after them, who was confiscating every ship, forcibly."As for the boy, his parents were good believers, and we saw that he was going to burden them
with his transgression and disbelief.*"We willed that your Lord substitute in his place another son; one who is better in righteousness and kindness.
"As for the wall, it belonged to two orphan boys in the city. Under it, there was a treasure that belonged to them.
Because their father was a righteous man, your Lord wanted them to grow up and attain full strength, then extract their
treasure. Such is mercy from your Lord. I did none of that of my own volition. This is the explanation of the things
you could not stand."Please read preceding verses for context.
peace
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) So you believe Allah is constrained/limited by time?
peace
Hi Hawk,
What is time according to you?
What is the purpose of His inspirations and messengers to you if He already knows what you will decide tomorrow?
Peace Bender.
GOD knows the past , the present and the furture. If GOD knows what you did and what you are doing, then GOD also knows what you will do. As simple as that
7226GOD bless you.
PeaceHi GL,
He knows the future of the things which He has predetermined/predestined.
The difference between us humans and other creatures is that we are not predetermined/predestined but that we have it under our own control, we are the authors of our own books.A nice example is the story of Lut's people. At some moment they were predetermined/predestined, if that happens then you are lost, even Ibrahim can not save you
A other example is Firaun, he was not yet predetermined/predestined when Musa was send to him.
2042Salaam,
Bender -
What is time according to you?
What is the purpose of His inspirations and messengers to you if He already knows what you will decide tomorrow?
Peace bender, you answer my question with a question? Could you answer my question first?
Do you believe Allah is constrained/limited by time?
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Peace bender, you answer my question with a question? Could you answer my question first?
Do you believe Allah is constrained/limited by time?
Hi Hawk,
I answered your question with a question because I first want to know what you understand under time.
In my view time is just an abstract human invention to "measure" a change between 2 existing moments.
So what is time according to you, then I will try to answer your question.I do not believe Allah is "re-watching" a movie, or "watching" a movie He wrote, if that is what you understand under time.
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Hi Hawk,
I answered your question with a question because I first want to know what you understand under time.
In my view time is just an abstract human invention to "measure" a change between 2 existing moments.
So what is time according to you, then I will try to answer your question.I do not believe Allah is "re-watching" a movie, or "watching" a movie He wrote, if that is what you understand under time.
I agree with your definition of time, I also do not believe Allah is "re-watching" a movie, or "watching" a movie He wrote.
However, I believe we are living through what Allah already knows/created. For us it is year 2016. What year do you think
it is for Allah? Is sura 18 of any value to you?peace
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Peace comrox.
"Al-ghaib" can either mean unseen or future.
In 7226 it means the future.Here is another example with the same meaning
1020They say, "How come no miracle came down to him from his Lord?" Say, "The future belongs to God; so wait, and I am waiting along with you."
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
We do have Quran Kareem to guide us.
He said, "Now we have to part company. But I will explain to you everything you could not stand.
"As for the ship, it belonged to poor fishermen, and I wanted to render it defective. There was a king
coming after them, who was confiscating every ship, forcibly."As for the boy, his parents were good believers, and we saw that he was going to burden them
with his transgression and disbelief.*"We willed that your Lord substitute in his place another son; one who is better in righteousness and kindness.
"As for the wall, it belonged to two orphan boys in the city. Under it, there was a treasure that belonged to them.
Because their father was a righteous man, your Lord wanted them to grow up and attain full strength, then extract their
treasure. Such is mercy from your Lord. I did none of that of my own volition. This is the explanation of the things
you could not stand."Please read preceding verses for context.
peace
Couldn't that story support the argument that Man of Faith stated in an earlier post?
If Rabb determines something it is destined, but it was not predestined.
God determined that His servant would be inspired with knowledge.
1865 So they came upon a servant of Ours whom We had given him mercy from Us and We had taught him Knowledge from Us.
Now I have to think, what is this knowledge? Knowledge of the future? Knowledge of the present? Knowledge of human nature? Or simply knowledge that something was being requested of him? I feel that the servant having knowledge of the future (in other words, knowing with absolute certainty what was going to happen) is the most unlikely in this scenario. Knowing the future isn't necessary for a person to commit the actions that this servant did.
All of the people and actions that were taking place during this time could be known in the present (ex one could assume that a king will take every good boat by force if he has already begun to take boats by force. Because the action has already started, you can expect it will continue until it is affected somehow). It's possible that God didn't even inspire him to do those specific actions; perhaps this servant was knowledgeable enough to take the best course of action he believed in these scenarios.
If God Wills the boys will grow up well. But at this moment of time I think that the boys still have the choice of extracting their treasure. They may, or may not, at the time the servant is teaching his lesson. It is up to us to accept or deny the mercy of our Lord.
I feel like there was more I wanted to say, but alas, it is gone now. )
Peace. )
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Peace comrox, Bender.
In this story GOD is telling you HE knows what is going to happen
285
We willed to compensate those who were oppressed on earth, and to turn them into leaders, and make them the inheritors.286
And to establish them on earth, and to give Pharaoh, H?m?n, and their troops a taste of their own medicine.287
We inspired Moses' mother "Nurse him, and when you fear for his life, throw him into the river without fear or grief. We will return him to you, and will make him one of the messengers."GOD knew all the decisions the people involved were going to make.
GOD bless.
Peace. -
Like I have already written; if God/Rabb knew what would happen then all of this is redundant and would have no logical reason to exist and happen. It would not be a test as the outcome would be already known and hence have no use. It is a logical fallacy to argue otherwise.
Destiny is not predetermined except for when someone determines what will occur. Our destinies are shaped as we go and we create them by our deeds.
Life is like in a video game were several factors determine your game experience and the programming was made by God/Rabb and the game content is interactive. God/Rabb controls your situation in the game but lets you play your character/avatar. Life can be metaphorically compared this way with a video game.
The timeline is being altered over time and albeit God/Rabb determined a fate for you that fate is adjustable depending on your way of living, i.e. nothing is absolute in advance. If it was, all the testing would be redundant and have no use since God/Rabb would already know what to do with you.
If God/Rabb knew the outcome of the time in this world then it is vain to place them like puppets in there while they could instead directly rot in Hell since God knows this is what they will do. It does not make sense. It is as if God/Rabb is sadistic too.
How primitive do you like to make God/Rabb in your opinion? This God/Rabb could as well be an ape man.
Be well
Amenuel -
1865 So they came upon a servant of Ours whom We had given him mercy from Us and We had taught him Knowledge from Us.
All of the people and actions that were taking place during this time could be known in the present (ex one could assume that a king will take every good boat by force if he has already begun to take boats by force. Because the action has already started, you can expect it will continue until it is affected somehow). It's possible that God didn't even inspire him to do those specific actions; perhaps this servant was knowledgeable enough to take the best course of action he believed in these scenarios.If God Wills the boys will grow up well. But at this moment of time I think that the boys still have the choice of extracting their treasure. They may, or may not, at the time the servant is teaching his lesson. It is up to us to accept or deny the mercy of our Lord.
I feel like there was more I wanted to say, but alas, it is gone now.
Peace. )
) Peace Comrox, The Quran does not support your argument! The Quran states that the boys would grow
up "then" or at that time in the future extract the treasure, no maybe in the ayat. Also the boys would reach maturity!
(not die before then). Also there is no "assume" as you state in your reply.
nope You did not read all of ayat 82 where the person of knowledge states
" I did none of that of my own volition" (he was commanded to). If you think the boys still have a choice?
please provide evidence.peace
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I agree with your definition of time, I also do not believe Allah is "re-watching" a movie, or "watching" a movie He wrote.
However, I believe we are living through what Allah already knows/created. For us it is year 2016. What year do you think
it is for Allah? Is sura 18 of any value to you?peace
Hi,
RED Strange question. I said that time is just a human invention.
BLUE Yes. Can you point out where the mysterious man knows the future?
He is not a soothsayer, just read carefully and you will see that he does not know the future. -
Peace comrox, Bender.
In this story GOD is telling you HE knows what is going to happen
285
We willed to compensate those who were oppressed on earth, and to turn them into leaders, and make them the inheritors.286
And to establish them on earth, and to give Pharaoh, H?m?n, and their troops a taste of their own medicine.Hi,
In the verses before it is told what Firaun and his company were doing and Allah knows what Firaun and his company think and what their plans are.
As an example you can take IS nowadays. Even I can predict what will happen on earth when IS gets the upper hand. I do not know what is in their minds but from their actions and their propaganda. I believe I can make a relatively accurate prediction. Unlike me Allah knows what they have in mind what their plans are and knows what kind of people they are.287
We inspired Moses' mother "Nurse him, and when you fear for his life, throw him into the river without fear or grief. We will return him to you, and will make him one of the messengers."GOD knew all the decisions the people involved were going to make.
GOD bless.
Peace.Musa was a chosen one, as is pointed out in several verses. Like Allah can decree that you will be lost, He can also decree that you will be a chosen one.
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Peace Bender.
What is the difference between what you say,quote
Musa was a chosen one, as is pointed out in several verses. Like Allah can decree that you will be lost, He can also decree that you will be a chosen one.
And what I said in my posst i.e that GOD knows what you will do?
I see contradiction in some of your posts ?
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Peace Bender.
Let me further confirm for you that GOD knows the past ,the present and the future
Anything that happens on earth, or to you, has already been recorded, even before the creation. This is easy for God to do.
Your only god is God; the One beside whom there is no other god. His knowledge encompasses all things.
He knows their past and their future, while none encompasses His knowledge.Of course you can look up the original Arabic and choose your own translation.
We are responsible for our own decisions. What GOD knows will not make a difference as far as we are concerned
Each of you chooses the direction to follow; you shall race towards righteousness. Wherever you may be, God will summon you all. God is Omnipotent.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Peace Comrox, The Quran does not support your argument! The Quran states that the boys would grow
up "then" or at that time in the future extract the treasure, no maybe in the ayat. Also the boys would reach maturity!
(not die before then). Also there is no "assume" as you state in your reply.
nope You did not read all of ayat 82 where the person of knowledge states
" I did none of that of my own volition" (he was commanded to). If you think the boys still have a choice?
please provide evidence.peace
Peace Hawk,
So, question, do you think the servant was or became similar to a robot then? That's how I interpreted the last few lines you wrote, so if you could please clarify that. As long as we are not robots I think we always have a choice. And I don't think any of us are robots.
Side comment, interestingly enough, last night I went out to get ice cream at my local ice cream shop, not knowing truly why I had decided to get the ice cream, other than the fact I had been craving it for a few hours. Anyways, the point of this story is that I ended up not having the best night and the uneaten ice cream was there to comfort me... Made me think of those verses.
I'll admit there was also another time that a had a feeling about a motorcycle on the road ahead of me, while I was in a car. There was just something about it. Seconds later I was in a car accident with that motorcycle.
Initution is a funny thing. p
Anyways, now I'm just rambling now.
Peace Bender.
Let me further confirm for you that GOD knows the past ,the present and the future
Anything that happens on earth, or to you, has already been recorded, even before the creation. This is easy for God to do.
Your only god is God; the One beside whom there is no other god. His knowledge encompasses all things.
He knows their past and their future, while none encompasses His knowledge.Of course you can look up the original Arabic and choose your own translation.
We are responsible for our own decisions. What GOD knows will not make a difference as far as we are concerned
Each of you chooses the direction to follow; you shall race towards righteousness. Wherever you may be, God will summon you all. God is Omnipotent.
GOD bless you.
Peace.Yesterday I came across an old reply by Man of Faith on a different thread (forget which one) but same subject. I thought he had a good reply. (I hope you don't mind me quoting you from an old thread, Man of Faith!)
He first said
"The test would be redundant if Allah knew that answer already. I find it flawed logic. It would mean that Allah just does all this for entertainment and not really have any purpose."
Then he said
"However, Allah knows everything that happens everywhere in the universe in any dimension simultaneously due to omnipresence and actually being existence itself. I consider it like a simulation where Allah has ultimate control. Allah tests our "hearts"."
At my current knowledge and understanding, I agree with the above. (I don't know how else to explain it besides the way Man of Faith wrote it.)
And as we each go further into our debates in this thread we are proving within how little concensus can be reached... rotfl
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Peace Bender.
What is the difference between what you say,quote
Musa was a chosen one, as is pointed out in several verses. Like Allah can decree that you will be lost, He can also decree that you will be a chosen one.
And what I said in my posst i.e that GOD knows what you will do?
I see contradiction in some of your posts ?
GOD bless you.
Peace.Peace GL,
I think you did not understand my view.
Ok let me explain a bit better.
If I can get in your head right now then it does not mean that I know what you will do tomorrow.
I only know what you are thinking now and not what you will do tomorrow or think tomorrow.
Yes I know your plans for tomorrow but before tomorrow you can change your plans.
Allah knows what is in our minds right now, you think it and He knows it.In the case of Musa, he was choosen by Allah. If Allah chooses you for something then no one can stop it.
2038
2039
2040
2041 -
Peace Bender.
Let me further confirm for you that GOD knows the past ,the present and the future
Anything that happens on earth, or to you, has already been recorded, even before the creation. This is easy for God to do.
Your only god is God; the One beside whom there is no other god. His knowledge encompasses all things.
He knows their past and their future, while none encompasses His knowledge.Of course you can look up the original Arabic and choose your own translation.
Hi GL,
May I ask from where you got these translations?
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Peace Bender.
I said you can use your own translation. So what does yours say?
I happen to agree with the translation I gave you .It goes with the context of other verses in Qoran. It also goes with "GOD being All Knowing".
If you say "GOD does not know such..." You are contradicting the statement in Qoran that GOD knows "Everything" there is no exception.
"Wa Hua Bikulli Chaiin Aleem".
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Peace Bender.
I said you can use your own translation. So what does yours say?
Hi GL,
I believe that you already know that some words in your translation are not there.
I happen to agree with the translation I gave you .It goes with the context of other verses in Qoran. It also goes with "GOD being All Knowing".
If you say "GOD does not know such..." You are contradicting the statement in Qoran that GOD knows "Everything" there is no exception.
"Wa Hua Bikulli Chaiin Aleem".
GOD bless you.
Peace.RED He is knowledgeable of every matter. I fully agree with that. But what is not a matter now is not a matter but nothing.
My thoughts over a year (if I am still alive) are not a matter yet, I do not even know what I wil be thinking in 1 minute so how can that be a matter?