Can we have concensus?
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Peace Bender.
As far as GOD is concerned the future has already happened.
GOD bless you.
Peace.Hi,
When did it happen?
Also if it already happened then it implies there was a first time but hey the first time was also not the first time because that would make God also doen't know the future at that time.
Thus implies that God is re-re-re-re-re...re-re-re-watching a movie.This is His creation. You are in the middle of it.
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Salamun Alaikum.
Although the debate has moved off-topic here, since the discussion is persisting let me share my perspective.
What does the Qur?an say
2255 God ? no god except Him the Ever Living Foundation of Existence. Drowsiness or sleep does not take him over. Whatever (is there) in the heavens and whatever (is there) on the earth (all) belong to Him. Who is the one who can intercede with Him except with His authorization? He knows whatever (happened) up until them (literally between their hands) and whatever (would happen) after them and they do not capture (literally surround) anything from His knowledge except what He wills. His domain encompasses the heavens and the earth and guarding of both does not fatigue Him and He is the Highest, the Greatest!
(My personal translation, cross checking is recommended, emphasis added.)
That God knows our future is a recurring theme in Qur?an, including the famous instance above. Another very clear declaration in Quran is that, God has predetermined where/how each of us will die
3154 (And) later, from after the distress, He sent down upon you security ? slumber veiled a faction of you while certainly a faction themselves made their souls anxious believing about God beyond the truth ?assumptions of ignorance ? saying, ?Is there anything for us from the command?? Say, ?Indeed the command ? all of it ? is for God?. They hide in their souls what they do not make apparent to you. They say, ?If there happened to be anything for us in the command we would not have been killed here.? Say, ?If you happened to be in your houses, those upon whom murder was booked would have surely come out towards their death-beds.? And so that God could test what was in your breasts and that He might purge what was in your hearts, and God is Knowledgeable of what (you) have in the breast.
(My personal translation, cross checking is recommended, emphasis added.)
If God does not know whether the murderer/killer will choose to kill.. He cannot predetermine the death of the victim.
So, one can choose to have a view that God does not know the future ? but it would be practically impossible to pass on such a view as ?Quranic?.
Also, that God determines what we will is clearly expressed here
7630 And you will not will accept that God wills. Indeed God happens to be Knowledgeable, Wise.
(My personal translation, cross checking is recommended, emphasis added.)
Let?s do a thought-experiment. Let?s hold a loaded gun to our head and plan for a suicide. If God knows when we are going to die, He must know if I am going to decide to pull the trigger or not. Right?
Is it logically possible for God to know the future
Yes it is. This is especially true for those who understand the relativity of time as postulated in modern Physics. Here is an excerpt about what Einstein believed about time
Surprising as it may be to most non-scientists and even to some scientists, Albert Einstein concluded in his later years that the past, present, and future all exist simultaneously. In 1952, in his book Relativity, in discussing Minkowski's Space World interpretation of his theory of relativity, Einstein writes
Since there exists in this four dimensional structure no longer any sections which represent "now" objectively, the concepts of happening and becoming are indeed not completely suspended, but yet complicated. It appears therefore more natural to think of physical reality as a four dimensional existence, instead of, as hitherto, the evolution of a three dimensional existence.
Einstein's belief in an undivided solid reality was clear to him, so much so that he completely rejected the separation we experience as the moment of now. He believed there is no true division between past and future, there is rather a single existence. His most descriptive testimony to this faith came when his lifelong friend Besso died. Einstein wrote a letter to Besso's family, saying that although Besso had preceded him in death it was of no consequence, "...for us physicists believe the separation between past, present, and future is only an illusion, although a convincing one."
Similar view about time is endorsed by the leading scientists of our time. The above site has more details.
If the Future is already existing and God is the One who created it, then God logically knows it. All of it.
Well then, If God determines my wills and choices then how come I am responsible for my actions
Actually this is the Question which confuses most of us into believing that we make our choices independent of God. To clarify this one needs to fully understand this ? God is NOT A DEITY who magically controls certain events and activities in the universe. God is the One who has caused the universe to be. He is the One who gives all objects their properties and He is the One who gives all living beings their consciousness. Everything that is happening in this universe, including the movements of every electron and proton inside our brain is happening because of God?s will. If God is the Foundation of Existence then rather it is impossible for anything to happen or exist beyond God?s will. If we understand God like this, there is no question that every choices that we are making are determined by God.
Everything that is happening in this universe has two sides of it - one the apparent physical side of cause and effect - the other the God's will in the background like the other side of the coin. The wind brings the cloud, the cloud brings the rain - yet God is the One who brings all of it. God's will and the apparent causal relationships in the universe are always simultaneously true.
We eat food that is not ours ? it is from God ? but still we eat it and satisfy our hunger. We breathe not our air ? the air is from God ? but still we breathe and live on. We operate our body ? though the body is not ours ? it is from God ? but still we run around with this body by our choice. Then very well we should make choices with our free will and take responsibility of such ? yet God is the authority who is making those choices for us.
But why we should be held responsible for our choices then? That is because we are making those choices just as much as God is making those choices. We are, in this very limited scope of personal choice making, acting with the authorization of God (bi idhnillah). God brought us into being and given us the freewill ? so He is the One supremely responsible for all of our actions anyway. The fact that God is supremely responsible for everything that happens in the universe does not take away anything from our personal responsibility of the choices that we make with God?s authorization.
When God created Adam, He knew very well that Iblis would choose not to prostrate to Adam. This was all part of God's plan. And Yet Iblis is responsible for his own choice. And he knows and acknowledges this
712 He said, ?What prevented you that you did not prostrate when I commanded you?? He said, ?I am better than him. You created me from fire and You created him from clay.?
713 He said, ?Then descend from it ? for it would not be for you that you be arrogant in it. So get out ? indeed you are among the humbled ones.?
714 He said, ?Reprieve me till the day they are animated.?
715 He said, ?Indeed you are among the reprieved ones.?
716 He said, ?So because you have let me astray, surely I will sit for them on Your straight way.?
717 (And) later surely I will be brought to them from up until them (literally between their hands) and from after them and unto their right and unto their left and You will not find most of them appreciative.?
718 He said, ?Get out of it disgraced and expelled ? surely whoever follows you ? surely I will fill Hell with you all together.?
(My personal translation, cross checking is recommended, emphasis added.)
The best approach to understand our ownership of our choices is to think like this - we do not make the choices to create our destiny. Our destiny is already predetermined by God. We merely exercise our choices to "earn" that destiny that God has already chosen for us. For some of us who deserve to be guided - God has chosen guidance for us and we will earn such guidance by our own choice. For some others - who deserve to be deviated - God has chosen deviation for them and they will earn such deviation by their own choice.
God is your Master and my Master. Everything in the heavens and on earth are slave to Him willingly or under compulsion. Our Master guides to the straight way whomever He wills.
Best regards,
Arman -
Peace Bender.
Yes it is GOD s creation with a purpose and an outcome that GOD has already predetermined.
For me , the fact that I am here speaking about GOD is a blessing. I could have been nothing, not existed at all!
I am grateful to the Creator for my "creation". I am also grateful that I have been born now . I do not question nor complain about the time or place where I exist.GOD has given me the means to "reflect", the opportunity to learn /study/check His message. This is a bonus ,a double blessing.
While I agree with Arman s post, I also think that what GOD does or knows is beyond our comprehension as humans
" Wa Ma Outeetum Mina Al- Ilmi Illa Kallila"How much do we know?The main message, since we find ourselves humans living on earth, is to do our best, be as best as we can, conduct ourselves in the best manner, do what is best for others and ourselves . We should be appreciative to GOD for giving us this chance and try our best.
My final say in this thread is to wish everyone the best.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Recluse,
Not accurate, I know what God/Rabb is or at least a great deal of His/Her/Its nature. It is not so hard if you find the right information. It is absolutely possible to know what God/Rabb is if you learn about it. I also know exactly why we are here and what we have to do and what is our remedy.
What is vague when I have not even detailed it for you at the moment? I only gave you a teaser of how content you would feel if you knew the nature of God/Rabb.
I also wrote to you that the Quran you have is interpreted by a bunch of hypocrites. Anyways either that or it is a garbage book not useful for much at all due to all the disinformation it spreads. The sectarian interpretation of Quran mainly spreads hatred and Paganistic idealism of the God/Rabb concept. You become much wiser when you begin to think beyond its narrow scope, just as you already seem to have begun to do. Albeit you seem almost hostile towards my input which is actually intended to aid you towards something which would be a relief to you if you hearkened.
I would advise you to look elsewhere into other so-called books of guidance because as Quran is presented by the common people makes it far inferior to certain East Asian spiritual teachers' writings and even the Biblical Gospels. Look beyond Quran even if you do not believe me and my realization and you might eventually draw the same conclusion as friends of mine did who nowadays believe in my declaration.
Jafar in this forum has come a longer way and grasped the truthful account better than most other people in the forum. He is not among the ones mentioned in the previous paragraph, but he is yet advanced in how much he has realized.
Be well
Amenuel -
Hi,
RED Do you mean something like this with "retroactive" I kill someone, God rewinds creation (goes back in "time", then He reacts just in time. Just like in "Back to the Future".
If so then no I do not believe this for a lot of reasons.
No, meaning that God knows after the fact/during the event etc rather than before I suppose. Too much sci-fi on your mind I take it.BLUE Waiting is a bit strange word I think. Because He is witnessing everything that is. You do He knows, you think He knows, you plan He knows, etc. With other words there is not a single thing that happens and He is witness over it.
Okay, so the moment we do/think/whatever something THAT is when He knows? He can't really predict or know what we are going to do since we haven't done it yet...is that closer to what you mean?GREEN Yes. If He already knows what I will do tomorrow then it implies that I have not a free will but a will that is determined to do what is predestined for me. To know what I am going to do tomorrow means that I am "programmed" in such a way that the author who wrote me made an algorithm in me to predict exactly what I will be tomorrow. This implies that it's not me who is doing all the things but God is letting me do it. I do not believe in this because it goes against free will and more than that it goes against that God is Just and implies that God is just re-watching a movie He already wrote. His inspirations/messengers are just for fun, He al ready knows what I will choose, He is just doing it for the sake of doing it, or to test if there is no bug in what He created.
Just a lot of things that totally make no sense to me to believe in this.
No, it doesn't necessarily mean you don't have free will. That's one way of looking at it. Another is that he knows but you still make your own choices without any compulsion. Some conflate this with well if he knows, then why make us suffer, not avoid pitfalls, rot in hell and so on. This I believe has been extensively discussed and there are different viewpoints. The point here is that if God knows then there can be other valid reasons as to why things happen the way they do. It's not mutually exclusive.I believe God knows everything that is past AND God knows everything that is now AND God knows everything that will happen for the things He speaks His word over it. But NOT what is not determined yet. And I believe we humans are special because we are not predetermined, He gave us a free will, free from His own will. He gave us the KHALIFA over earth. What we make of the earth is our responsibility. But God is not hiding somewhere but He is watching us and He is continuously guiding us to make clear for us what is best for us. Then He let us choose, do we follow His huda or do we follow shaytaan. That is our choice, He does not know what we will choose till the moment we choose. So with other words He does not know what I will do tomorrow but tomorrow the moment I do something He knows it.
Celestial bodies for example are predestined creatures, He wrote for them an algorithm from beginning to end. If he wanted to do that with us then He would have done it, He already showed that He is capable to "even" predestinate stars, so it is for sure He can do that also to us but He didn't, He gave us a free will.
I find reading the quran gives me a different impression e.g. 2255 and if I don't use the quran, it still gives me a different impression of what an almighty being in full control and authority would know to deserve such a mantleMaybe another way of looking at this would be what one's thoughts regarding omnipotence and almighty etc. On one hand, God is in full control and has also created the universe and whatever is in it etc which would not work as it does had the creator not calculated everything down to the smallest thing and knows/known/whatever tense how it would all unfold. Not guesswork or I think this will work and as/when issues come up I, God, will be proactive about them...but know that it is the only way it is going to, in those particular ways in specific, down to the last particle since he is the creator/director call it what you will. There are no alternatives or paths that can show up suddenly without it already being known, since as we know bugs in the system, whether beneficial or detrimental are surprise elements due to the limitations of a less than perfect programmer. The latter would be omnipotence or the essence of almighty but of course one could argue that the former could be as well but in my opinion, that is very weak and against the meaning of the concept. It's elegance/efficiency/smartness versus shoddy/inelegant/not so smart. I think of God as elegant, smart and efficient...perfect too, and have no doubt that's the better way of having any set up/system as we can see in designing systems on this material plane. Signs if you will.
This would apply to ALL things. Humans are part of the universe and their interactions with it and with themselves would obviously be included. It would be foolish to assume that humans are somehow shielded by a black spot where God's powers of observation/knowing cannot see...for all we know everything has already happened in all the possible ways already...is the reasoning if God did know he'd be extremely cruel if he let it happen or extremely compassionate and stop it? Reminds me of documentary makers recording cute cubs dying. Did God stop at some point and say I don't want to know since it hasn't happened yet and time apparently suddenly applies to Me too? Doesn't mean we don't have control in the ways that we do, and doesn't mean that we are puppets on a string. For the quran to say with authority in many places who is going to hell and who isn't, about events that haven't unfolded yet and so on and so forth we can only take it to mean someone up there knows, what's the alternative? that that was mostly just generic talk, and events could unfold in different ways and we'll see what happens as it happens so stay tuned for further bulletins as events warrant, or not. Not very authoritative is it?
Did I understood your questions correctly? And of course this is only what I believe, maybe we are indeed just puppets, but I do not believe that and I refuse to believe that >
There can be alternatives other than binary.
So, one can choose to have a view that God does not know the future ? but it would be practically impossible to pass on such a view as ?Quranic?.
I agree.For some others - who deserve to be deviated - God has chosen deviation for them and they will earn such deviation by their own choice.
No one deserves to be deviated, they earn it themselves. I would opine that guidance is the set path/package for all and by their actions they choose and thereby earn deviation or further guidance. -
No one deserves to be deviated, they earn it themselves. I would opine that guidance is the set path/package for all and by their actions they choose and thereby earn deviation or further guidance.
When the community rejects the signs of God, they deserve to be deviated. Then they earn the deviation by following the footsteps of devil.
When a person takes worldly pleasure and desires as his goal of life he deserves to be deviated. Then he earns his deviation by acting wickedly and by consuming the unlawful.
When a people become heedless about living in sustainable manner and get obsessed with consumption, they deserve to be deviated - they earn the deviation by depleting the natural resources and destroying their own habitat.
When a people choose their traditions and practices of their parents over their God-gifted sense of right and wrong, they deserve to be deviated. They earn this deviation by engaging in sectarian hostility, conflict and war.
Our attitude and priorities decide what we deserve. Our specific choice of actions decide what we earn.
Hope this clarifies what I meant.
Reference verses from Qur'an based on which I am adopting this terminology
3181 Verily God has heard the statement of those who say, ?Indeed God is poor while we are rich.? We will record what they said and the killing of the Prophets without (any) right, and We will say, ?Taste the suffering of burning.?
3182 That is because what your hands have offered and that God is not unfair to His slaves.
... ...
564 And the yahud said, ?The hands of God are shackled?. Shackled are their (own) hands. And they are condemned for what they had said. No! His both hands are fully stretched out ? He spends however He wills. And what has been sent down to you from your Master surely augments many of them in their defiance and (faith) repression. And We have offered among them enmity and hatred till the day of rising. Every time they kindled the fire of the war it was put out by God and they become busy spreading corruption on the earth. And God does not love the corrupter.
565 But if that the fraternity of the book had faith and been conscious, surely We would have suppressed their faults for them and surely We would have admitted them into the gardens of delight.
... ...
730 He guided a group, and (for) another group - the deviation came true/rightful upon them. Indeed they take the devils as patrons from other than God thinking that they are being guided.
...
770 They said, ?Have you come to us that we be slave to God alone and we leave whatever our fathers happened to be slave to? Then bring us with what you promise us if you happen to be sincere.?
771 He said, ?Verily, filth and anger from your Master is due upon you. Do you argue with me concerning names that you have named them - you and your fathers ? (whereas) God has not sent down for them any (delegation of) authority? Then keep watching, indeed I am with you among the ones keeping a watch.?
772 So We saved him and those with him by mercy from Us, and We cut-off the roots of those who denied Our signs ? and they did not happen to be faithful.
(My personal translation, cross checking is recommended, emphasis added.)
May Allah guide us all to the straight way.
Regards,
Arman -
No, meaning that God knows after the fact/during the event etc rather than before I suppose. Too much sci-fi on your mind I take it.
Hi,
I guess so. btw did you see Predestination?
Okay, so the moment we do/think/whatever something THAT is when He knows? He can't really predict or know what we are going to do since we haven't done it yet...is that closer to what you mean?
RED I am just a simple human being and I can make some accurate predictions if I was going to observe you. If I see you walking in the direction of a fridge, then I will predict that you are hungry and that you are going to get yourself some food.
God on the other hand knows exactly why you stood up and where you are heading at, you can not call it a prediction, because you yourself are not predicting what you are going to do. This is I believe what is meant with "Allah is knowledgeable of every matter".His knowledge about you is bigger than your knowledge about yourself. Lets say at 4 pm you eat some bread, then He knows (not predict but knows) exactly at what time you will get hungry based on your actions while you do not know this, you can only predict this.
No, it doesn't necessarily mean you don't have free will. That's one way of looking at it. Another is that he knows but you still make your own choices without any compulsion. Some conflate this with well if he knows, then why make us suffer, not avoid pitfalls, rot in hell and so on. This I believe has been extensively discussed and there are different viewpoints. The point here is that if God knows then there can be other valid reasons as to why things happen the way they do. It's not mutually exclusive.
That is the general thinking but I believe this is flawed.
I will try to explain.Ever thought about random nummers? Well random numbers don't exist. Yes there are a lot of sites/tools which generate random numbers but in fact they are not random but there is a algorithm behind it. If you know the algorithm (it doesn't matter how complex it is, even if you let it randomize by several natural phenomenons) then you can predict every "random" number. So what this means is that the supposed random nummers are in fact not random but are just a result of an algorithm.
If God knows before I was born my whole life already, then it means that there is a algorithm in me from which He gets this information, and because God Himself is my maker it means that He is also the one who wrote this algorithm. Thus it means that every action of me was predestined to happen. So if I kill someone then it's not my fault because it was already written that I am going to kill someone. It looks like it was my own decision for you and me but the reality is that it was already programmed in me.
This thus means that this whole life of me and everyone else is just joke, I can not accept this, because God does not play games.
I find reading the quran gives me a different impression e.g. 2255 and if I don't use the quran, it still gives me a different impression of what an almighty being in full control and authority would know to deserve such a mantle
RED If you meant this phrase " " this is really so badly translated by everyone.
BLUE But He is in full control and has full authority over you. If He wanted then He can make you a puppet any moment He wants to, but He willed that you have a free will independend from His own will.
There are several verses in the quran were it is said something like this "And if He wanted then He could have made you ..., but He willed that you..."Maybe another way of looking at this would be what one's thoughts regarding omnipotence and almighty etc. On one hand, God is in full control and has also created the universe and whatever is in it etc which would not work as it does had the creator not calculated everything down to the smallest thing and knows/known/whatever tense how it would all unfold. Not guesswork or I think this will work and as/when issues come up I, God, will be proactive about them...but know that it is the only way it is going to, in those particular ways in specific, down to the last particle since he is the creator/director call it what you will. There are no alternatives or paths that can show up suddenly without it already being known, since as we know bugs in the system, whether beneficial or detrimental are surprise elements due to the limitations of a less than perfect programmer. The latter would be omnipotence or the essence of almighty but of course one could argue that the former could be as well but in my opinion, that is very weak and against the meaning of the concept. It's elegance/efficiency/smartness versus shoddy/inelegant/not so smart. I think of God as elegant, smart and efficient...perfect too, and have no doubt that's the better way of having any set up/system as we can see in designing systems on this material plane. Signs if you will.
This would apply to ALL things. Humans are part of the universe and their interactions with it and with themselves would obviously be included. It would be foolish to assume that humans are somehow shielded by a black spot where God's powers of observation/knowing cannot see...for all we know everything has already happened in all the possible ways already...is the reasoning if God did know he'd be extremely cruel if he let it happen or extremely compassionate and stop it? Reminds me of documentary makers recording cute cubs dying. Did God stop at some point and say I don't want to know since it hasn't happened yet and time apparently suddenly applies to Me too? Doesn't mean we don't have control in the ways that we do, and doesn't mean that we are puppets on a string. For the quran to say with authority in many places who is going to hell and who isn't, about events that haven't unfolded yet and so on and so forth we can only take it to mean someone up there knows, what's the alternative? that that was mostly just generic talk, and events could unfold in different ways and we'll see what happens as it happens so stay tuned for further bulletins as events warrant, or not. Not very authoritative is it?
There can be alternatives other than binary.
I agree.No one deserves to be deviated, they earn it themselves. I would opine that guidance is the set path/package for all and by their actions they choose and thereby earn deviation or further guidance.Will come back to this later as I have top reread this and let it sink a bit to understand what you exactly mean.
peace
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Salamun Alaikum.
Although the debate has moved off-topic here, since the discussion is persisting let me share my perspective.
Best regards,
ArmanHi,
Yes sorry for this.
Maybe a moderator can cut this topic somewhere around reply 35 and make a new topic of it.
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Hi,
I guess so. btw did you see Predestination?
Yep, wasn't bad.RED I am just a simple human being and I can make some accurate predictions if I was going to observe you. If I see you walking in the direction of a fridge, then I will predict that you are hungry and that you are going to get yourself some food.
God on the other hand knows exactly why you stood up and where you are heading at, you can not call it a prediction, because you yourself are not predicting what you are going to do. This is I believe what is meant with "Allah is knowledgeable of every matter".His knowledge about you is bigger than your knowledge about yourself. Lets say at 4 pm you eat some bread, then He knows (not predict but knows) exactly at what time you will get hungry based on your actions while you do not know this, you can only predict this.
Yes, I know the difference between knowing and a prediction. Not sure if it's your wording here but given your earlier replies as 'God does not know until it becomes a matter'...what are you saying? Does God know you are going to get hungry at the precise time you do before you actually do and will be going to the fridge using the precise number of steps that you eventually end up taking etc or not? If he does, then yay, we are done pretty much. If not, then if I get up to go to the fridge because I'm hungry and can count my steps if I wanted to...what is the difference between God's knowledge and mine? Are you saying I randomly walk towards the fridge and don't know why I'm walking towards it and only God does? I'm sure you can appreciate the convoluted disconnect that seems to be manifesting itself here.Ever thought about random nummers? Well random numbers don't exist. Yes there are a lot of sites/tools which generate random numbers but in fact they are not random but there is a algorithm behind it. If you know the algorithm (it doesn't matter how complex it is, even if you let it randomize by several natural phenomenons) then you can predict every "random" number. So what this means is that the supposed random nummers are in fact not random but are just a result of an algorithm.
Apple was criticised for the random algorithm behind it's shuffle since it appeared it wasn't as random as people expected, and then they tried to make it appear more random to users by making it less )If God knows before I was born my whole life already, then it means that there is a algorithm in me from which He gets this information, and because God Himself is my maker it means that He is also the one who wrote this algorithm. Thus it means that every action of me was predestined to happen. So if I kill someone then it's not my fault because it was already written that I am going to kill someone. It looks like it was my own decision for you and me but the reality is that it was already programmed in me. This thus means that this whole life of me and everyone else is just joke, I can not accept this, because God does not play games.
The algorithm thing and the rest doesn't follow with the leaps here. God didn't pull the trigger for you. And here is where we come back to 'if God knew then I shouldn't have existed/should've intervened/not my fault/i'm just a tool like Iblis' complaint so on. Like I said, we can take this to mean we are all puppets or we can look at alternatives which might include viable reasons as to why God would create this type of a scenario. My view on it currently is that free choice has a lot to do with it. No one has true free will no matter if this was a random creation or not, we are constrained by something or another. The point is to see how we perform given the choices available to us which we are free to choose from. If the argument now is that the choices presented themselves are a form of compulsion, when are we free from such I ask you? No matter which model you bring up, there are always constraints and choices are always limited to within those constraints. I've probably digressed but I suppose first we need to deal with can God know everything (no exceptions) or not, then deal with the ramifications of such, instead of rolling the cart backwards or whatever the saying is.RED If you meant this phrase " " this is really so badly translated by everyone.
I'm sure it is, I suppose you'll tell me it has to do with the stones in the pavement that are in front and the wind at the back laughBLUE But He is in full control and has full authority over you. If He wanted then He can make you a puppet any moment He wants to, but He willed that you have a free will independend from His own will.
There are several verses in the quran were it is said something like this "And if He wanted then He could have made you ..., but He willed that you..."
Yeah, free choice. He could always compel you to do whatever but that isn't the goal.Will come back to this later as I have top reread this and let it sink a bit to understand what you exactly mean.
No worries. -
Maybe another way of looking at this would be what one's thoughts regarding omnipotence and almighty etc. On one hand, God is in full control and has also created the universe and whatever is in it etc which would not work as it does had the creator not calculated everything down to the smallest thing and knows/known/whatever tense how it would all unfold. Not guesswork or I think this will work and as/when issues come up I, God, will be proactive about them...but know that it is the only way it is going to, in those particular ways in specific, down to the last particle since he is the creator/director call it what you will. There are no alternatives or paths that can show up suddenly without it already being known, since as we know bugs in the system, whether beneficial or detrimental are surprise elements due to the limitations of a less than perfect programmer. The latter would be omnipotence or the essence of almighty but of course one could argue that the former could be as well but in my opinion, that is very weak and against the meaning of the concept. It's elegance/efficiency/smartness versus shoddy/inelegant/not so smart. I think of God as elegant, smart and efficient...perfect too, and have no doubt that's the better way of having any set up/system as we can see in designing systems on this material plane. Signs if you will.
So, if I'm correctly understanding what you are trying to say here, the flaw in saying that God does not know the future is that God is not as omnipotent and almighty as He claims?
This would apply to ALL things. Humans are part of the universe and their interactions with it and with themselves would obviously be included. It would be foolish to assume that humans are somehow shielded by a black spot where God's powers of observation/knowing cannot see...for all we know everything has already happened in all the possible ways already...is the reasoning if God did know he'd be extremely cruel if he let it happen or extremely compassionate and stop it? Reminds me of documentary makers recording cute cubs dying. Did God stop at some point and say I don't want to know since it hasn't happened yet and time apparently suddenly applies to Me too? Doesn't mean we don't have control in the ways that we do, and doesn't mean that we are puppets on a string. For the quran to say with authority in many places who is going to hell and who isn't, about events that haven't unfolded yet and so on and so forth we can only take it to mean someone up there knows, what's the alternative? that that was mostly just generic talk, and events could unfold in different ways and we'll see what happens as it happens so stay tuned for further bulletins as events warrant, or not. Not very authoritative is it?
The concept of time and relationship of time to our actions is what is difficult for me to understand and wrap my head around, I think. I think I understand what you said about the black spot. I will ponder about it more.
You said "For the quran to say with authority in many places who is going to hell and who isn't, about events that haven't unfolded yet and so on and so forth we can only take it to mean someone up there knows, what's the alternative?" A possible alternative argument could be that God knows the nature of how He initially created humans, so based on that knowledge of human nature He knows people will deviate. He set up laws in place that people will stray from.
I agree.No one deserves to be deviated, they earn it themselves. I would opine that guidance is the set path/package for all and by their actions they choose and thereby earn deviation or further guidance.
I agree. peace
When a people choose their traditions and practices of their parents over their God-gifted sense of right and wrong, they deserve to be deviated. They earn this deviation by engaging in sectarian hostility, conflict and war.
I think the above statement is what Recluse has been repeatedly saying is unfair. How much do people really chose? If I try to assume more about your response based on "engaging in sectarian hostility, conflict and war", I could assume you may categorize these people by how much harm (or peace) their actions result in.
Hi,
Yes sorry for this.
Maybe a moderator can cut this topic somewhere around reply 35 and make a new topic of it.
I support this.
Apple was criticised for the random algorithm behind it's shuffle since it appeared it wasn't as random as people expected, and then they tried to make it appear more random to users by making it less
I was shuffling through my iTunes library when I read this...
Peace all. peace
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Yep, wasn't bad.
I guess it was to complex for you ;D
Yes, I know the difference between knowing and a prediction. Not sure if it's your wording here but given your earlier replies as 'God does not know until it becomes a matter'...what are you saying? Does God know you are going to get hungry at the precise time you do before you actually do and will be going to the fridge using the precise number of steps that you eventually end up taking etc or not? If he does, then yay, we are done pretty much. If not, then if I get up to go to the fridge because I'm hungry and can count my steps if I wanted to...what is the difference between God's knowledge and mine? Are you saying I randomly walk towards the fridge and don't know why I'm walking towards it and only God does? I'm sure you can appreciate the convoluted disconnect that seems to be manifesting itself here.
REDI agree, I was not totally clear, but I thought that you would understand what I meant without making it to boring. But I agree, in such discussions it is indeed better to be very clear.
What I meant with "He knows exactly when you will get hunger again" is because He knows your body and He knows the things He determined.
Lets say the optimal position to hold out hunger is laying still in an optimal environment. And lets say 1 apple will give you 5 hours of satiety. You do not have this information, God does. If you just flash with your eyes then He knows that you do not have 5 hours left but 1 second less because you spilled some energy. With every movement you make He knows exactly how much energy it costs and how much time will go off from the optimal 5 hours. You do not have this information.
Thus He knows the effects of your moves but not when you will make a move, that is your choice.I got some words from google translate (so not sure if those are the right terms) and my sentences are not worth a nobel prize but I hope you understand now.
The algorithm thing and the rest doesn't follow with the leaps here. God didn't pull the trigger for you.
Who did if it wasn't Him?
3873or did I misunderstood you?
And here is where we come back to 'if God knew then I shouldn't have existed/should've intervened/not my fault/i'm just a tool like Iblis' complaint so on. Like I said, we can take this to mean we are all puppets or we can look at alternatives which might include viable reasons as to why God would create this type of a scenario.
My view on it currently is that free choice has a lot to do with it. No one has true free will no matter if this was a random creation or not, we are constrained by something or another.RED constrained by what? You are not constrained in your choices by anyone UNLESS you are forced by someone. And that is what Allah does not like, oppression. Those who oppress, thus take away the free will Allah gave them, they will have a difficult day when they will face Allah.
The point is to see how we perform given the choices available to us which we are free to choose from.
I can agree with this )
In fact you have endless choices on your account, but of course this endless has an end. You can will to kill someone with your eyes, but you do not have the power for such things, so there is for sure a border.If the argument now is that the choices presented themselves are a form of compulsion, when are we free from such I ask you?
No matter which model you bring up, there are always constraints and choices are always limited to within those constraints.You have a choice to eat a red apple or a green one you can even decide to go to a shop and buy a banana or not eat at all or wait a little bit, how long you wait is also your choice etc. So only with this you have like endless options to choose from.
But there are also situations were you have only 2 choices. Fire in your house, jump from your window and hope for the best or not jump and burn (if that was the only choice of course).
So yes sometimes we are restricted, but we have always at least 2 choices.I've probably digressed but I suppose first we need to deal with can God know everything (no exceptions) or not, then deal with the ramifications of such, instead of rolling the cart backwards or whatever the saying is.
Of course He can. Like I said He can make every free will not free at any moment He wants.
But according to the quran (of course MY understanding of the quran) is that he willed a free will for us. Of course free with restrictions like I I mentioned before.I'm sure it is, I suppose you'll tell me it has to do with the stones in the pavement that are in front and the wind at the back laugh
A lot translate it something like this "He knows their past and their future" or something similar.
And this is simply a false translation. -
Comrox,
How can someone know something that has not been created or performed yet? Is that a fallacy? The future is being created as we go. I do not deem Rabb fallacious or lacking omnipotence because of that.
Surely if now Rabb had determined that the future had certain events to occur then sure they are predetermined (sort of predestination) and we are living through events prophesied thousands of years ago right now. Still the events surrounding the main events can vary and there are other circumstances. For you as person, you are in control of your development and you cannot blame Rabb for that as is the case with the believers in predestination. In practice you give Rabb the blame for you failing and entering Hell if that is your destiny with this reasoning concerning predestination.
The prophecy that occurs now depends on the people and their readiness to have a good versus bad role in it although those taking the negative side do it in ignorance (are "kafaroon" as their ability to see straight is impaired by their lack of spiritual development. The culprit here is their very own bodies which have an increasing domination over their spirit and could be perceived like dense fog over a meadow making it nearly impossible to see what is around and at the other side of it.
Be well
Amenuel -
So, if I'm correctly understanding what you are trying to say here, the flaw in saying that God does not know the future is that God is not as omnipotent and almighty as He claims?
Not really, the flaw I suppose may lie in what we think of those terms.The concept of time and relationship of time to our actions is what is difficult for me to understand and wrap my head around, I think. I think I understand what you said about the black spot. I will ponder about it more.
Absolutely, thinking about stuff like this is an ongoing process.
You said "For the quran to say with authority in many places who is going to hell and who isn't, about events that haven't unfolded yet and so on and so forth we can only take it to mean someone up there knows, what's the alternative?" A possible alternative argument could be that God knows the nature of how He initially created humans, so based on that knowledge of human nature He knows people will deviate. He set up laws in place that people will stray from.
If we are talking knowledge, it can be complete/absolute or incomplete/partial. It's the level of accuracy/specificity that we're kinda talking about...or rather I'm talking aboutI was shuffling through my iTunes library when I read this...
They call such things synchronicity...I guess it was to complex for you
Or not enoughREDI agree, I was not totally clear, but I thought that you would understand what I meant without making it to boring. But I agree, in such discussions it is indeed better to be very clear.
What I meant with "He knows exactly when you will get hunger again" is because He knows your body and He knows the things He determined.
Lets say the optimal position to hold out hunger is laying still in an optimal environment. And lets say 1 apple will give you 5 hours of satiety. You do not have this information, God does. If you just flash with your eyes then He knows that you do not have 5 hours left but 1 second less because you spilled some energy. With every movement you make He knows exactly how much energy it costs and how much time will go off from the optimal 5 hours. You do not have this information.
Thus He knows the effects of your moves but not when you will make a move, that is your choice.I got some words from google translate (so not sure if those are the right terms) and my sentences are not worth a nobel prize but I hope you understand now.
So he's essentially a chess player who knows the opponent entirely? Lol. At the end of the day, you're thinking God is some kinda Sherlock and so am I. The ways and means are different. In my view, it's not mutually exclusive and I see viable alternatives.Who did if it wasn't Him?
3873or did I misunderstood you?
I'm really not sure what you mean here.RED constrained by what? You are not constrained in your choices by anyone UNLESS you are forced by someone. And that is what Allah does not like, oppression. Those who oppress, thus take away the free will Allah gave them, they will have a difficult day when they will face Allah.
You are constrained by your circumstances.In fact you have endless choices on your account, but of course this endless has an end. You can will to kill someone with your eyes, but you do not have the power for such things, so there is for sure a border.
We don't have endless choices
You have a choice to eat a red apple or a green one you can even decide to go to a shop and buy a banana or not eat at all or wait a little bit, how long you wait is also your choice etc. So only with this you have like endless options to choose from.
But there are also situations were you have only 2 choices. Fire in your house, jump from your window and hope for the best or not jump and burn (if that was the only choice of course).
So yes sometimes we are restricted, but we have always at least 2 choices.I think you're using endless as a way of saying many, alright.
Of course He can. Like I said He can make every free will not free at any moment He wants.
But according to the quran (of course MY understanding of the quran) is that he willed a free will for us. Of course free with restrictions like I I mentioned before.Responded previously. Doesn't have to conflict.
A lot translate it something like this "He knows their past and their future" or something similar.
And this is simply a false translation.
What's the true translation? -
When a people choose their traditions and practices of their parents over their God-gifted sense of right and wrong, they deserve to be deviated. They earn this deviation by engaging in sectarian hostility, conflict and war.
I think the above statement is what Recluse has been repeatedly saying is unfair. How much do people really chose? If I try to assume more about your response based on "engaging in sectarian hostility, conflict and war", I could assume you may categorize these people by how much harm (or peace) their actions result in.
Thanks Comrox.
I am not talking about people deserving deviation because of their religion / tradition. It is not the birth of a person to a religion that is to be held against the person - but his/her blind following of tradition especially when such following goes against his/her God-gifted sense of right and wrong. And this applies to people of all religions equally.
Being born of a Hindu family is not a sin, nor is it a sin that one follows what one finds best in the tradition that he inherited. But burning widows alive in the name of tradition is of course a sin - and whoever supports such view deserves the deviation and suffering.
Being born of a Buddhist family is not a sin, nor is it a sin that one follows what one finds best in the tradition that he inherited. But persecuting Rohingyas in the name of Budhdhist solidarity is of course a sin - and whoever supports such view deserves the deviation and suffering.
Being born of a Christian family is not a sin, nor is it a sin that one follows what one finds best in the tradition that he inherited. But practicing white supremacy ideology (like the KKK) in the name of Jesus is of course a sin - and whoever supports such view deserves the deviation and suffering.
Being born of a Jewish family is not a sin, nor is it a sin that one follows what one finds best in the tradition that he inherited. But persecuting Palestinians in the name of Zionism is of course a sin - and whoever supports such view deserves the deviation and suffering.
Being born of a Sunni family is not a sin, nor is it a sin that one follows what one finds best in the tradition that he inherited. But harboring hostility against the Shias (and vice versa) and people of other religion in general in the name of Islam is of course a sin - and whoever supports such view deserves the deviation and suffering.
May Allah guide us all to the straight way.
Regards,
Arman -
At the end of the day, you're thinking God is some kinda Sherlock and so am I.
Hi,
Not totally sure what you meant.
Anyway my position is that He knows every outcome of every action/matter there is.
And because I believe He gave us a free will (thus no algorithm in us), He can not know what I will do next year because me myself have not even thought about it thus it's not a matter yet which He can know.
With other words if you plug in me a supercomputer which is "almighty" and it analyses all the data in me, then this computer can never know what I will do tomorrow. Because there is no information in me now, except the trivial things (I will breathe, eat, sleep, etc tomorrow), which will give this computer data to know what I will do tomorrow.
If this supercomputer is able to predict exactly every action of me what I will do tomorrow then it means, that it can not only predict tomorrow, but also predict exactly what I do next year and what my grand grand grand children wil do, this thus means that we do not have a free will but are puppets who were doomed to hell or heaven at the moment He said "Be" and I do not believe in this as this goes against my believe and I do also not see a single verse in the quran where such thing is claimed. In fact all verses about this subject in the quran look like to support my view (ofcourse my understanding of it).We don't have endless choices )I think you're using endless as a way of saying many, alright.
No not really, I meant endless like infinite.
You have $1000000 and I have $100. You have more choices then me what to do with your million but I still have like you infinite choices what to do with my $100.
But we both are restricted to the amount of money we have.What's the true translation?
imo it should be something like this "He knows what is within their reach/might and what is outside them"
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God is not as omnipotent and almighty as He claims?
Peace all. peace
Hi,
What do you think, can God win a game of tic tac toe against me?
Some information about me before you answer to quickly or misjudge me, I am the best tic tac toe player in the world.
Since I found the not loosing strategy, I never lost to anyone.So what do you think? I am actually also interested in the answers of other members if they like to answer.
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Peace bender, you have a very interesting point of view.
Are you saying that Allah does not know the future?Hi,
First of all I believe the future does not exists. Only the now exists.
What you see now and what is now, that is what is.
We are developing in what He creates and He did not create tomorrow yet, what is now that is His creation.
So speaking in terms of future or time does not make sense.
The destination of a lot of things however is determined, but we humans are not of those who have been predestinated, we have our own "future" in our own hands.
If we have it in our hands as the quran and my own feeling suggests then He can not know my "future" unless He decides that I will be one of the predestinated, and doing this last thing is as easy for Him as giving me my own "future" in my own hands.So in short, He is able to know the "future", He has might over it, but He willed that we will evolve on our own but restricted by His laws.
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First of all I believe the future does not exists. Only the now exists.
ok so no future, so words like tomorrow, later, in the future, next, Insha'Allah mean what?
What you see now and what is now, that is what is.
I agree
We are developing in what He creates and He did not create tomorrow yet, what is now that is His creation.
So speaking in terms of future or time does not make sense.ok, any support from Quran on this?
The destination of a lot of things however is determined, but we humans are not of those who have been predestinated, we have our own "future" in our own hands.
If we have it in our hands as the quran and my own feeling suggests then He can not know my "future" unless He decides that I will be one of the predestinated, and doing this last thing is as easy for Him as giving me my own "future" in my own hands.So in short, He is able to know the "future", He has might over it, but He willed that we will evolve on our own but restricted by His laws.
Interesting, so you are saying Allah does not know or does not want to know some things? hmm
peace
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ok so no future, so words like tomorrow, later, in the future, next, Insha'Allah mean what?
Hi,
They mean that we trust Allah that His word is true.
We calculate "time" by the movement of things which are predestinated, because we trust that Allah will not change His laws/word.ok, any support from Quran on this?
Not really. But there is also not a single verse were it states that tomorrow is already created.
Interesting, so you are saying Allah does not know or does not want to know some things? hmm
peace
That is not the correct formulation, because He knows all things.
Whatever you do/think/whatever, He knows.
But what you have not done/thought/whatever, He does not know that, as He left it in your hands, you are writing your own book and He is "reading" your book while you write it.The pages of tomorrow are blank in your book till tomorrow then you will write them.
Yes there are some sketches on those blank pages, your plans for tomorrow, and He knows all those sketches, but those are sketches and while tomorrow nears those sketches change and He knows all the changes in your sketches but not what you really going to write there, till the moment of real writing.I think I am repeating myself now. And do not know how to make my view more clear than I already did.