Is AL-HARAM THE FORBIDDEN OR THE SACRED ? Please say why
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Literally it means "The place of forbidden prostration". It is a site dedicated to the forbidden that is to say the holy. Dedicated to the forbidden because it (the Jerusalem Temple) has been destroyed. The masjid al haram are the ruins of Temple Mount. Worshipped by the Judeo-Nazarenes.
The inner sanctum of the Temple was at the same time the most holy part of Temple Mount and a restricted (forbidden) area, not accessible to all (only to a certain caste). Not to mention the entirety of Jerusalem was during periods of time (see Jewish revolts against Heraclius) no longer accessible to anyone Judaic (including Judeonazarenes and their Arab allies).
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Literally it means "The place of forbidden prostration". It is a site dedicated to the forbidden that is to say the holy. Dedicated to the forbidden because it (the Jerusalem Temple) has been destroyed. The masjid al haram are the ruins of Temple Mount. Worshipped by the Judeo-Nazarenes.
The inner sanctum of the Temple was at the same time the most holy part of Temple Mount and a restricted (forbidden) area, not accessible to all (only to a certain caste). Not to mention the entirety of Jerusalem was during periods of time (see Jewish revolts against Heraclius) no longer accessible to anyone Judaic (including Judeonazarenes and their Arab allies).
Sura 17 refers to Moses , From Masjid Haraam to Masjid Aqsa........
So has nothing to do with jews and Heraclius.
hmm
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Sura 17 refers to Moses , From Masjid Haraam to Masjid Aqsa........
So has nothing to do with jews and Heraclius.
hmm
Where do you think Moses received the Torah? It is Temple Mount.
Of course the events during Heraclius reign are irrelevant to the story of Moses, but it doesn't take away the meaning of a forbidden place for the Judeonazarene Arabs of Syria during the time of Qurans revelation. -
Peace 357,
This has been discussed multiple times on this forum in the past. Haram as used in al-quran can only mean INVIOLABLE which fits all occurrences. Neither sacred or forbidden fits all occurrences. Search "inviolable" for past threads.
Al-masjid al-haram is "the truth from your lord" as clearly defined in al-quran (2149). The truth from your lord is inviolable and you can metaphorically turn your face towards the truth from your lord wherever you may be (2144, 2150) even if you are in an unobservable part of the universe, just like you can metaphorically turn your face towards the non physical one infinite creator (679) who is present everywhere (2115).
679 "I shall turn my face to the one who initiated the heavens and the earth, in monotheism, and I am not of the polytheists."
2177 clearly discourages turning your face towards a physical direction. It is about righteousness and clearly indicates that righteousness is not turning towards a physical direction. Additionally turning your face towards a physical direction is IMPOSSIBLE wherever you may be, for example if you are in an unobservable part of the universe. Even if you are on Earth, 10,000 km from a physical place, even if you are off by 0.01 degrees you will be off from a physical place by many kilometers!
Peace
PS Plus you will be facing the sky tangential to Earth instead of a physical place due to the spherical nature of Earth, if you are far away.
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Involiable doesn't make sense, there is no place on earth that is inviolable. Neither does 'turning your face metaphorically to the truth' mean anything more than total gibberish.
What kind of metaphor for turning to the truth would explicitly use "TURN YOUR FACE"?
ps @truthseeker do you seriously attribute these kind of irrational statements to God?
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Peace 357,
This has been discussed multiple times on this forum in the past. Haram as used in al-quran can only mean INVIOLABLE which fits all occurrences. Neither sacred or forbidden fits all occurrences. Search "inviolable" for past threads.
Al-masjid al-haram is "the truth from your lord" as clearly defined in al-quran (2149). The truth from your lord is inviolable and you can metaphorically turn your face towards the truth from your lord wherever you may be (2144, 2150) even if you are in an unobservable part of the universe, just like you can metaphorically turn your face towards the non physical one infinite creator (679) who is present everywhere (2115).
679 "I shall turn my face to the one who initiated the heavens and the earth, in monotheism, and I am not of the polytheists."
2177 clearly discourages turning your face towards a physical direction. It is about righteousness and clearly indicates that righteousness is not turning towards a physical direction. Additionally turning your face towards a physical direction is IMPOSSIBLE wherever you may be, for example if you are in an unobservable part of the universe. Even if you are on Earth, 10,000 km from a physical place, even if you are off by 0.01 degrees you will be off from a physical place by many kilometers!
Peace
Thanks.
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Involiable doesn't make sense, there is no place on earth that is inviolable. Neither does 'turning your face metaphorically to the truth' mean anything more than total gibberish.
What kind of metaphor for turning to the truth would explicitly use "TURN YOUR FACE"?
ps @truthseeker do you seriously attribute these kind of irrational statements to God?
Wajah isn't face - to my knowledge.
It can be course, purpose, object one is pursueing, direction which one is going or looking e.t.c
http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume8/00000304.pdf
peace
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Peace 357,
This has been discussed multiple times on this forum in the past. Haram as used in al-quran can only mean INVIOLABLE which fits all occurrences. Neither sacred or forbidden fits all occurrences. Search "inviolable" for past threads.
Al-masjid al-haram is "the truth from your lord" as clearly defined in al-quran (2149). The truth from your lord is inviolable and you can metaphorically turn your face towards the truth from your lord wherever you may be (2144, 2150) even if you are in an unobservable part of the universe, just like you can metaphorically turn your face towards the non physical one infinite creator (679) who is present everywhere (2115).
679 "I shall turn my face to the one who initiated the heavens and the earth, in monotheism, and I am not of the polytheists."
2177 clearly discourages turning your face towards a physical direction. It is about righteousness and clearly indicates that righteousness is not turning towards a physical direction. Additionally turning your face towards a physical direction is IMPOSSIBLE wherever you may be, for example if you are in an unobservable part of the universe. Even if you are on Earth, 10,000 km from a physical place, even if you are off by 0.01 degrees you will be off from a physical place by many kilometers!
Peace
PS Plus you will be facing the sky tangential to Earth instead of a physical place due to the spherical nature of Earth, if you are far away
Peace truthseeker11,
I think that your understanding of Al-masjid al-Haram is correct. It seems that the notion that Al-Masjid al-Haram is a physical direction has no basis in the Quran.
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I see how this metaphorically turning your face to the truth works I call it ignorance.
Qibla of ancient mosques coincidence
Dome of the rock coincidence
Hadith about Muhammad first praying to Jerusalem fantasy
Conquest of Jerusalem didnt happenRight! rotfl
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Peace 357,
It is a FACT that no mosque has been discovered from the time of revelation of al-quran.
It is a FACT that the most early mosques discovered are from a time AFTER revelation of al-quran was completed (650 to 750 AD).
It is a FACT that the direction of those early mosques was either winter sunrise or winter sunset and NOT EITHER JERUSALEM OR MECCA. The degrees were off from both by more than 30 degrees and were exactly in the pagan directions of winter sunrise or sunset.
This is proof that the so called "Muslims" reverted to paganism and worship of sun soon after death of Muhammad. Actually they were not even called "Muslims" then!
Peace
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Peace 357,
It is a FACT that no mosque has been discovered from the time of revelation of al-quran.
It is a FACT that the most early mosques discovered are from a time AFTER revelation of al-quran was completed (650 to 750 AD).
It is a FACT that the direction of those early mosques was either winter sunrise or winter sunset and NOT EITHER JERUSALEM OR MECCA. The degrees were off from both by more than 30 degrees and were exactly in the pagan directions of winter sunrise or sunset.
This is proof that the so called "Muslims" reverted to paganism and worship of sun soon after death of Muhammad. Actually they were not even called "Muslims" then!
Peace
Neither did a Quran exist before 650 (in the Uthmanic format we know today). Here is a testminoy of Arculf the Frankish Bishop who visited Jerusalem during the time of Muawiya - https//archive.org/details/libraryofpalesti03paleuoft
http//i.imgur.com/aweZPlN.png
Why would Muawiya raise a cubic structure there? Does that cube ring a Quranic bell?
He describes a structure raised on Temple Mount that could house 3000 people "reconstructed" under Muawiya. The presence of a structure there is quite irrelevant, since the ruins of Temple of Jerusalem are being referred to, as explained earlier. The reconstruction in place under Muawiya was a first primitive attempt of rebuilding the temple there, a judeonazarene ambition.
Second, your concept of astronomical orientations of early mosques is totally laughable, it only shows your ignorance about how their qibla was changed from Jerusalem to Syria, and ultimately to Mecca.
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Neither did a Quran exist before 650 (in the Uthmanic format we know today). Here is a testminoy of Arculf the Frankish Bishop who visited Jerusalem during the time of Muawiya - https//archive.org/details/libraryofpalesti03paleuoft
http//i.imgur.com/aweZPlN.png
Why would Muawiya raise a cubic structure there? Does that cube ring a Quranic bell?
He describes a structure raised on Temple Mount that could house 3000 people "reconstructed" under Muawiya. The presence of a structure there is quite irrelevant, since the ruins of Temple of Jerusalem are being referred to, as explained earlier. The reconstruction in place under Muawiya was a first primitive attempt of rebuilding the temple there, a judeonazarene ambition.
Second, your concept of astronomical orientations of early mosques is totally laughable, it only shows your ignorance about how their qibla was changed from Jerusalem to Syria, and ultimately to Mecca.
Clearly "Muawiya" has made use of the ayah indicating the "change in direction ayah" which he found in the quran, so to make use of that he made the second qibla - surely that is obvious from your own information!
The quran was memorised by thousands of people i think and written down as well , as that couldn't be changed they did what was feasible to make people prey to the cube in mecca, change from one thing to another.
Vow! cunning man.
Muawiya's father was the biggest enemy of prophet Muhammad, Muawiya was the enemy of Hazrat Ali, and the son of Muawiya was Yazid who then annihilated the family of Muhammad.
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it is very obvious that Al-masjid Al-Haram is a physical place, and the Qiblah is a physical direction you turn towards to pray.
...Why do these people misunderstand almost everything?
Perhaps it is because those who advocate your view have little reply to the various objections raised? Stated here for all to see and check
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-masjid-al-haram-Quran.html'The Sacred Mosque' fares most poorly in 171, 2142-150, 2217, 928, and relatively poorly in 2196, 2225, 919. Also, please note that traditional commentators (e.g. Tafsir of Ibn Kathir, Al-Jalalayn, Ibn Abbas) frequently switch their understanding of AMAH depending on verse, e.g. it can mean 'the sacred site/area of prostration' in 171, 'kaaba (cuboid)' in 2144/2149/2150, 'the sanctuary / Mecca' in 2196, 2217, 2225, 928. Usually, when one forces an incorrect understanding into AQ it will result in inconsistency/variance/contradiction, see the important test of 482. If the problems discussed in this work can be answered then it recommended for those advocating such a view to put forth their answers.
For example, if I held your view I'd simply look at the possible objections and tackle them one by one (with Quranic evidence, logic etc).
From my experience, most prefer to remain silent in reply.To be fair though, the objections are not listed all in one place in that article (one would have to read the analysis of each verse to see what the objections were). Perhaps I may return to it in future and provide a simplified summary list so people can check it more easily then reply. The reason I didn't do this is I'd expect a sincere truthseeker to actually check it themselves regardless if I made a summary list or not.
I did begin one, just with 171 in reply to rlz, he didn't reply to them however. The interesting thing is this is only objections for one verse and tackling it is already difficult if someone held your view. Don't take my word for it though, try it. It's the part below #####
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9604467.msg375129#msg375129 -
Perhaps it is because those who advocate your view have little reply to the various objections raised? Stated here for all to see and check
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-masjid-al-haram-Quran.htmlFor example, if I held your view I'd simply look at the possible objections and tackle them one by one (with Quranic evidence, logic etc).
From my experience, most prefer to remain silent in reply.To be fair though, the objections are not listed all in one place in that article (one would have to read the analysis of each verse to see what the objections were). Perhaps I may return to it in future and provide a simplified summary list so people can check it more easily then reply. The reason I didn't do this is I'd expect a sincere truthseeker to actually check it themselves regardless if I made a summary list or not.
I did begin one, just with 171 in reply to rlz, he didn't reply to them however. The interesting thing is this is only objections for one verse and tackling it is already difficult if someone held your view. Don't take my word for it though, try it. It's the part below #####
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9604467.msg375129#msg375129It seems very logical to me that Al-masjid Al-Haram is a physical place, and the Qiblah is a physical direction, its not that i 'prefer to remain silent in reply.' but quite frankly i cant be bothered, if you could sum it up it like a max of 3 sentances i might be more interested, however i will put it on my checklist of things to look further into
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Thanks for your honest reply.
It is as I said, since there is very little response from those who hold your view, forgive me (and others) if we dont also share your view. Personally, I prefer evidence-based discussion. I have presented mine (albeit in a lengthy article).
In my view the lack of replies is likely a combination of
insincerity - it's actually quite rare to meet a sincere truthseeker who reads things that actually questions their own views.
lazyness - can't be bothered reading such an article
genuinely limited time - rare
credibility - aware of article but does not put much stock in my analysis thus not worthy of reading
intellectual capability - some may read it but not understand it, or some parts of it, hence do not reply
blind following - prefer to remain ignorant, makes for an easy life they like to think
intellectual dishonesty - read it, knows the view they hold is weak, hence prefer not to answerYou asked for a sum up in 3 sentences, which is probably not possible BUT I did provide a link with a simplified list to answer for 171 only. Go on, try it. ;D
Enjoy
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9604467.msg375129#msg375129
