Petra is the Holy City of Islam
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I did read this interesting theory online (in the past),
matter of fact is however, there is no such a thing as " the holy city of islm " ! Notwithstanding, the archaic script of the Quran does indicate a "Nabatean" origin indeed. More can be said, but i digress.Salute.
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Who else?
I've read the book too, quite interesting. It's certainly possible but I still think more proof is needed. The pieces of this obscure puzzle seemingly fit, albeit I doubt the black stone played a part at all and is an object introduced much much later down the history line, say close to the time that cube in present day mecca was built.
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I have not yet read the book, but i have seen the "Sacred City" documentary that can be found on youtube. Showing the qiblas of the earliest known mosques as all pointing to Petra is compelling and can't be ignored. I tend to rest on that fact alone. However, when one delves further into the fact that Mecca was and has never been on any trade routes, is devoid of vegetation and has demonstrated a complete lack of archaeological evidence of anything, the case gets all the more compelling. Mecca could never have been what it has traditionally been held out to be. That said, in all of my conversations with other Muslims, the fact that this has all escaped them this so many centuries, and the constant need to dismiss any non-Muslim scholarship as a conspiracy to destroy Islam, will always maintain the status quo in thinking.
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Peace All .
Is this also another fact?
https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=IW0FrgSd80k&t=51s
One should dig deep about these claims and look for solid evidence .
Easy to believe all sorts of "facts".
The same can be said about digging deeper for Dan Gibson s background ,motives and works. Look for solid "evidence" .
To me ,I have not found any evidence overwhelming? But just plenty of Theories and assumptions .
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
good logic,
If Dan Gibson's qibla measurements are correct, i'm sorry, that is compelling and overwhelming. While the rest may be theory and supposition, if the qibla of the earliest known mosques all pointed to Petra, that requires explanation, in and of itself. One need not delve into Dan Gibson's alleged personal motives. Frankly, I am tired of, everytime a non-Muslim tries to produce any sort of scholarship on Islam, Muslims immediately turning the other way and suspecting some sort of conspiracy. -
peace redsulphar.
I had a look at this claim, no evidence.
This guy also was asking for evidence
https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUU9LAOQZPkGOD bless you.
Peace. -
Please see this article for an analysis of "qiblah" in Quran
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-masjid-al-haram-Quran.htmlIf it's a pysical place
masjid Al Haram in Mecca is full of polytheist So Allah revealed to you
O you who have believed indeed the polytheists are unclean, so let them not approach al-Masjid al-Haram( after this, their year).And if you fear privation, Allah will enrich you from His bounty if He wills. Indeed, Allah is Knowing and Wise.
(Even though your number are very few you should not fear because if you are 20 you can over come 200 plus Allah will reinforce you with more than 5000 Angels)
House of Allah is ruled by polytheist rotfl something need to be done about this , this is a serious matter.
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There are however strong archeological evidences of
- Judaism influence (including Messianic Judaism) on Arabic tribes, especially northern arabic tribes. Some logical explanation might include influence from evangelism activities from Judean diaspora after they were expelled from Canaan cities and towns (By the Byzantine Romans) and seek refuge to the neighboring northern arabian towns and villages.
- Polytheistic religion thrived on Petra, as evidenced by findings of numerous idols within the cities.
- Conversion of a northern Arabian tribes (ie Edomites) to Judaism, as evidenced by the infamous Judean King named Herod which was a native of Edom.
- Very strong influence of Judaism within the book titled Quran, especially Messianic Judaism, such as Adam & Eve, Fall Of The Devil, Moses, Exodus, Noah, David with specific characteristics indicating Messianic branch of Judaism, such as Jesus, John, Heaven Hell with Judgement Day. Basically it is a Messianic Judaist book written in Arabic tongue.
The hypothesis of Petra as the initial holy city can be explained if what actually happened was an effort or struggle of surrounding Arabic Judaist tribes to evangelize the city of Petra into Monotheism (read Messianic Judaism). And they eventually succeeded on doing such, before an internal strife sprunged up within themselves.
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I think it is useless to guess a specific religious tradition within the Quran. There is too much emphasis on God an not the Messiah for it to be Messianic Judaism, not to mention the latter is mostly a new age movement within Judaism and not something too spread around 5-7 c. A.D. But judging from some of the verses, it is possible to guess that there are also many traits of Essenes community's theology, early Christian Gnosticism and/or other resembling mystical beliefs.
Arabic as a standalone language too was not developed as a language we know today until mid-late 8th century, similar as the Early Modern English (KJB and William Shakespeare) were a product of English Protestantism to spread their influence. Arabic was eventually compiled out of many Northern and Southern languages and dialects. The Quranic script was also altered throughout the the periods of Islamic development. The "earliest" copies of the Quran available today look more like bad copies used by scholars to train their writing skills and do not serve any serious theological or research purposes, even Fatihah in them are missing /
So so far it is unknown which Semitic tradition does Quran adher too. One idea was Ge'ez, I will look at it one day. It can as well be constructed of various dialects and languages, because there is a clear indication of at least one calque word In-jeel, which is clearly not of Semitic origin but is a calque from Greek eu'angelos, for letter jiim is also spelled as G in Semitic traditions, similar as P/F and other consonants.
Unlike calque, we can also observe possible borrowing from Persian, which is jinn, meaning soul/spirit/invisible. Yet word is used for both THE JINN and GARDENS. Such controversy is unacceptable in the script which originally was pure ABJAD, meaning it lacked any fake/additional diacritics, therefore such polarly-different meanings make the book even more intricate and unclear. Well, modern Arabic language is certainly of no use in understanding the Quran, even counter-productive in studying the Quran.
It is clear that the Quran contains influences from the Old Testament, and not only Torah. But what thing of a particular interest is the story about the People of the Cave, identified as the Seven Sleepers, which is not even based on any of the previous holy scriptures
The earliest version of this story comes from the Syrian bishop Jacob of Serugh (c.450 521), which is itself derived from an earlier Greek source, now lost. An outline of this tale appears in Gregory of Tours (538594), and in Paul the Deacon's (720799) History of the Lombards. The best-known Western version of the story appears in Jacobus da Varagine's Golden Legend.
And biography of this dude is of particular interest
https//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob_of_Serugh
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Has there to be a holy city of Islam?
Haven't e got enough ith Rome, the seat of a worldly empire that broke so many other people? Jerusalem so that some fake religious nuts steal a country and use to keep the middle east under the nato empire?
If e are going to have aholy city for that God save us from holy cities. All in all, the meka of mega real estate developments looks almost naive.
ruh al quddus is for the hearts. Holy cities ar an invitation to worldly grandeurs, pure vanity.
Salaam
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I think it is useless to guess a specific religious tradition within the Quran. There is too much emphasis on God an not the Messiah for it to be Messianic Judaism, not to mention the latter is mostly a new age movement within Judaism and not something too spread around 5-7 c. A.D.
It's not a guess, it's a natural evolutionary path of tradition and how they influence each others..
Messianic Judaism does relatively focus more on God if compared to Coptics, Catholics or Orthodox.
Yet it focus more on Messiah if compared to Rabbanical Judaism...Apparently it gained more ground outside of traditional Judaism ground (ie. Judea Province of Roman Empire) during 5-7 AD.
The Cave Sleepers of Ephesus is among the popular widespread story of Messianic Judaism and Orthodox branch of Christianity.But judging from some of the verses, it is possible to guess that there are also many traits of Essenes community's theology, early Christian Gnosticism and/or other resembling mystical beliefs.
Definitely, the fall of the Devil (from a high ranking angel due to refusal to bow to Adam) is a popular story among the Essenes...
Considered as Apocrypha (ie Illegal / Unofficial Story) by Rabbanical Judaism or other Judaism branch..It is clear that the Quran contains influences from the Old Testament, and not only Torah. But what thing of a particular interest is the story about the People of the Cave, identified as the Seven Sleepers, which is not even based on any of the previous holy scriptures
It was a popular story / tale widespread among Orthodox, Copts and Messianic Judaism (Eastern Christianity), the 7 sleepers of Ephesus.
The earliest (surviving) record about such tale was written by the gentleman which you've mentioned, a Syrian Orthodox bishop named Jacob of Serugh. Which potentially derived from another older source.
Has there to be a holy city of Islam?
No.. it's all about politics and power grab anyway..
Haven't e got enough ith Rome, the seat of a worldly empire that broke so many other people? Jerusalem so that some fake religious nuts steal a country and use to keep the middle east under the nato empire?
Religious, Nationalist, Racist and other forms of Fanatics are indeed nuts...
What about the work of Pazuzu, Pazuzu disagree on Petra
Mr. Pazuzu is fanatical towards Yemen, everything is centered and oriented towards Yemen.
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Mr. Pazuzu is fanatical towards Yemen, everything is centered and oriented towards Yemen.
Pazuzu is not fanatic. Whatever he says he proves and gives all the facts and arguments. That you do not think Yemen deserves any attention at all, does not mean that truth should not be said aboutbecause truth is too good for it. It is not a cquestion of orienting or centering anything but whether it is false or right.
Salaam
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Pazuzu is not fanatic. Whatever he says he proves and gives all the facts and arguments. That you do not think Yemen deserves any attention at all, does not mean that truth should not be said aboutbecause truth is too good for it. It is not a cquestion of orienting or centering anything but whether it is false or right.
Thank you Mrs Pazuzu..
Yemen does deserve and really need world attention now..
It has been 2 years since Saudi troops invaded and performed murderous act there..
Thus a very good reason to put anyone attention towards Yemen..And apparently the (western and islamic) world turned a blind eye, perhaps due to the atrocities was performed by a holy islamic kingdom, a loyal ally to the western world.
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You intend to be insulting. Since I do not go allong with your surmissions nor lavish you with praise, you have to taint the person who praises somebody else's work or talents with something of a vested interest in what the person says, only great mr. jaffar is objective and wise.
You cannot undo what Pazuzu says but you divert the question to something that has nothing to do ith the present debate.
There are many ways to contribute to the help of people of Yemen now if you are interested in that. And most certainly Pazuzu is not to blame for that plight nor are those who find his research of great interest.
Don't use the plight of the people of Yemen to attack others.
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No city deserves attention in relation to Exodus, as it did not happen historically, nowhere and never. The attempts to "prove" anything is a result of literal understanding of those scriptures, which is the plague of many people. It's like reading book of Revelation and understading it...literally. The stories of Exodus were available long before the OT was even complied. It is a clear methaphor of people being guided by faith to escape lowly aspect of their souls, such as being misled and decieved by Firaun, which symbolizes unjust authority. Word for Egypt is misr which according to the root definitions I could find means "city", but its primary meaing is "to cover", "fence", "barrier". People were released from the barrier of their by the Messiah, which is Moses (according to respective gematria values Moses and Messiah-Moschiach refer to the same). If you ever want to learn anything outside of the bus stop in this life, learn to think that there is something behind the Cosmos as well. 12 tribes of Isreal? Are you too lazy to look at the calendar on your wall?
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It's not a guess, it's a natural evolutionary path of tradition and how they influence each others..
Messianic Judaism does relatively focus more on God if compared to Coptics, Catholics or Orthodox.
Yet it focus more on Messiah if compared to Rabbanical Judaism...There is no single specific tradition within the Quran, I think anyone interested can count at least several. Christian influence - certainly. Summeria-Akkadian influence of astro-theology and Phonician religion? 100% And many more.
Yes, every new tradition completes and surpasses something of the past, there is nothing new under the Sun as the saying goes. However, the more traditions or hints on traditions we can find in the Quran the more it seems that it aims to unite them in one volume, which looks very similar to what early pre-modern was all about (archaic).
I still don't follow what do you mean by Messianic Judaism, according to your explanation. From what I observe it focuses on Jesus Christ while adhering to traditional Judaism and is a new age movement circa around 1960's. The idea of Messiah in Judaism is/was very widespread up to the Zionist movements of the 17-19th centuries, which broke/adjusted the tradition stating that they do not have to wait for Messiah anymore and can now go back to Israel since they themselves united are Messiah (especially 19th century Zionism). This logic is very intact with theosophy movements which also appeared in the 19th century.
Apparently it gained more ground outside of traditional Judaism ground (ie. Judea Province of Roman Empire) during 5-7 AD.
The Cave Sleepers of Ephesus is among the popular widespread story of Messianic Judaism and Orthodox branch of Christianity.
Definitely, the fall of the Devil (from a high ranking angel due to refusal to bow to Adam) is a popular story among the Essenes...
Considered as Apocrypha (ie Illegal / Unofficial Story) by Rabbanical Judaism or other Judaism branch..It was a popular story / tale widespread among Orthodox, Copts and Messianic Judaism (Eastern Christianity), the 7 sleepers of Ephesus.
The earliest (surviving) record about such tale was written by the gentleman which you've mentioned, a Syrian Orthodox bishop named Jacob of Serugh. Which potentially derived from another older source.
Yes, Greek source. Aristotle I think had a similar story, so the story comes not necessarily from Christian or Jewish sources but Antiquity in general. The reason I mentioned it is an interesting observation is that the Quran, now it is obvious, does not claim specific Abrahamic tradition, but is more into antiquity, which for me personally is a great finding, as I do love antiquity and archaic, where man and religion was one unity of human life.
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There is no single specific tradition within the Quran, I think anyone interested can count at least several. Christian influence - certainly. Summeria-Akkadian influence of astro-theology and Phonician religion? 100% And many more.
Exactly!!
It's a mixed bag of neighboring tradition.
Sumerian-Akkadian (God wrote a book, Adam, Garden of Eden, Noah Flood), Egyptian (Judgement Day), Judaism (Monotheism, Abraham, Angry God because his people worship a golden calf, Moses, Solomon, David, No Pork etc...), Messianic (Jesus, John, Mary), Syrian Orthodox (Sleeper of Ephesus), Essenes (Fall of the Devil), Zoroastrianism (Battle between good and bad, Devil as the enemy of God) and local traditions.Which is natural, as those tradition lived nearby, it's easy for human to interact with each others thus influence each others...
It's however quite hard to find influence from far away land such as Taoism or Buddhism.
The same case happened when we dig and observe Chinese Buddhism, within you can find influence from Buddhism, Taoism, Confucianism and Local Tradition as well. And it's hard to find influence from far away land such as God wrote a book, angry and jealous God of other Gods, Abraham, Exodus, Moses, Adam, Garden of Eden, Holy City, A standardized location to face towards to upon meditation etc..
Yes, every new tradition completes and surpasses something of the past, there is nothing new under the Sun as the saying goes. However, the more traditions or hints on traditions we can find in the Quran the more it seems that it aims to unite them in one volume, which looks very similar to what early pre-modern was all about (archaic).
Ideas are continuously invented and adopted into the religion.
Then they make an effort to 'standardize' the religion by writing a holy book, to be the sole 'authority'.I still don't follow what do you mean by Messianic Judaism, according to your explanation. From what I observe it focuses on Jesus Christ while adhering to traditional Judaism and is a new age movement circa around 1960's. The idea of Messiah in Judaism is/was very widespread up to the Zionist movements of the 17-19th centuries, which broke/adjusted the tradition stating that they do not have to wait for Messiah anymore and can now go back to Israel since they themselves united are Messiah (especially 19th century Zionism). This logic is very intact with theosophy movements which also appeared in the 19th century.
An evidence that religion and tradition is continuously evolving up until today and well into the future..
Invented and adjusted to meet human needs at specific situation in accordance to it's place and time....Yes, Greek source. Aristotle I think had a similar story, so the story comes not necessarily from Christian or Jewish sources but Antiquity in general. The reason I mentioned it is an interesting observation is that the Quran, now it is obvious, does not claim specific Abrahamic tradition, but is more into antiquity, which for me personally is a great finding, as I do love antiquity and archaic, where man and religion was one unity of human life.
Variety and evolution of religion / tradition is an interesting phenomenon to observe..
Although fanaticism is really pain in the arse to deal with. Any form of fanaticism... -
It's a mixed bag
Which is great ) Emotionally for me it is interesting to have one comprehensive metaphysical mystical knowledge of the unseen summarized into one work rather than having to lurk among various traditions. But of course this does not release me from loving the seeking and studying from various sources of Western and Eastern philosophies anyway. In fact, if it was not for the latter I probably would not understand the ascepts of the Quran I do understand today.
It's however quite hard to find influence from far away land such as Taoism or Buddhism.
The same case happened when we dig and observe Chinese Buddhism, within you can find influence from Buddhism, Taoism, Confucianism and Local Tradition as well. And it's hard to find influence from far away land such as God wrote a book, angry and jealous God of other Gods, Abraham, Exodus, Moses, Adam, Garden of Eden, Holy City, A standardized location to face towards to upon meditation etc..
I've found two to begin with. One is seen at the beginning of every chapter, Basmallah, which is the copy of AUM mantra, and another is the symbol of flower of lotus, which is very important in Buddhism and other Eastern philosophies.
It is not a book of psychotic uncontrolled anger and arrogance. There is a reason it often refers to the Gospels. It is the Lunar book, i.e. the teaching which inclines its reader to read behind the lines by using intuition and wisdom, which belongs to the the lunar, feminine characteristics, as opposite to literal, logical masculine solar way of perception. In fact even Islamic symbolism of Sun and Moon tells a lot to someone interested in archetypes. Of course Lunar and Solar archetypes are themselves as old as the written human history itself and did not evolve out of religion called Islam. But it is quite symbolic and not suprising to me why Islamic calendar deems day of Freya (Friday) as its holy day, because in essence it is a lunar-based religious system (which itself is nothing negative and has a lot of positive connotations). Even female veil is a symbol of phalic domination over lunar, feminine mind.
But the way people perceive and the way common interpretation is given is quite psychotic and hard to read. In fact when I study it I have to take breaks, but in the end it proves worthy as I reach a comprehensive understanding by patient study, critical thinking, self-identification of myself as someone unimportant to lower a possible rise of arrogance and overconfidence, which always lead to biased research results as is evident in all of its translations, as well as employing multi-lateral methodology. But yeah...
The idea that God releases volumes I think has emerged out of Brahmanism establishment (organized clergy). In the very ancient times people used to analyze their reality as something unipolar between their physical space and spiritual space. This was until in relatively ancient times the Brahmanism caste developed, which has its reflection not only in Hinduism, but in all major religions in general and beyond, on social level. The common idea is that a common person does not understand the Scriptures and has to refer to someone called "scholar". This way the ancient pre-modern period gave in to the late antique period, which has revolutionized the way human and the divine interact. Unlike the most ancient unipolar understanding, the prole, or shudra in Sanskrit now have an intermediary between themselves and God, which is a scholar, Brahman, clergyman or organized religion in general. This brings up a whole vertical perception of our life
Brahman - the person of knowledge, resides on the top of pyramid and controls the flock
Kshatriya - warrior, ruler, psychopath who lacks natural compassion towards human suffering and is used by Brahmans as an intermediary between themselves and "lesser beings"
Vayisha - small and medium sized entrepreneurs, capitalists
Shudrahs - the proles (as defined by George Orwell), shit (as defined in one of the songs by Russian deceased rock-artist Yegor Letov), proletarians (as defined by Marx and Engels), commoners (in feudal terms), basically the lesser step in the system of castes, who are subject to higher ranked authorities, and are controlled by physical (soft and hard power enforcement and capital) and mental (mind control, false ideologies, patriotism, local or national religious institutions, valse values, education, manipulation by history and more) instruments.
And regardless of what Western culture we belong to, it is obvious how the most of the world has integrated this perhaps Mesopotamian system into their everyday lives in the family, in organizations, in governmental structures and pretty much all ascepts of human life, which is regulated by something Weber termed as bureaucracy.
Ideas are continuously invented and adopted into the religion.
Then they make an effort to 'standardize' the religion by writing a holy book, to be the sole 'authority'.Well, the reason Islam arose was to oppose the rapidly developing Eastern Roman Empire, Byzantine, which became Christianized. It is logical they needed a new religion. It does not explain from where the Quran came though. I suppose some underground monasteries and probably earlier than AD 540-630.
An evidence that religion and tradition is continuously evolving up until today and well into the future..
Invented and adjusted to meet human needs at specific situation in accordance to it's place and time....One thing I learned on my journey for gnosis is the fact that the more ancient is the tradition the better it is. Modern post WW2 New Age movements are just a bunch of fuzzy beliefs mixed of everything, which suits agenda of a particular movement without however building a comprehensive picture, which would involve all directions of human life, death and development, such as how Kaballah does it. One example is the modern Western mystical movements obsessions with meditation and yoga with a salt of some Abrahamic insignia. The true Eastern Buddhist devotees look at this with disgrace, not because of their selectivity of beliefs, but because how they integrate these Eastern practices into their Westernized busy life, which is traditionally based on Churches and Prayer. So to study Buddhism one has to actually grasp from their ancient Eastern sources or even talk to their elders, he would benefit way more from it than looking at popular modern Buddhism or esoteric stuff related websites.
Variety and evolution of religion / tradition is an interesting phenomenon to observe..
Although fanaticism is really pain in the arse to deal with. Any form of fanaticism...I completely agree. Comparative religion is actually a nice field to dive into sometimes.
