Dr. Jonathan Brown discusses Quran-alone Muslims
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Dr. Jonathan Brown from Georgetown University discusses the Quran-alone movement here
https//youtu.be/kUDHzdiYgws?t=17m13s
He makes the standard argument that "the Quran cannot be read on its own. Because otherwise you wouldn't know how to pray 5 times a day."
He also claims that there was no Quran-alone movement in pre-modern Islam.
While I think he makes a logical contradiction here by claiming that you need the Prophet's teachings to follow the Quran, this forum is actually a good example about the fact that we cannot get any significant number of people to agree on how to pray according to the Quran alone.
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He also claims that there was no Quran-alone movement in pre-modern Islam.
Then who did Shafi address when he was trying to convince in his debate about why hadiths are necessary?
While I think he makes a logical contradiction here by claiming that you need the Prophet's teachings to follow the Quran, this forum is actually a good example about the fact that we cannot get any significant number of people to agree on how to pray according to the Quran alone.
Debate over prayer is far better than debates over why "prophet told us to do this and that" by reading conflicting reports which still require edits.
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While I think he makes a logical contradiction here by claiming that you need the Prophet's teachings to follow the Quran, this forum is actually a good example about the fact that we cannot get any significant number of people to agree on how to pray according to the Quran alone.
If Salat means prayer according to the Quran alone, then I think your example is good/valid. But if Salat does not mean prayer according to the Quran alone, then why should we get any significant number of people to agree on a non-quranic ritual?
How do you know for sure that Salat means prayer according to the Quran alone? Do you have any Quranic evidence that supports your claim?
How do you know for sure that the Quranic way of doing Salat is identical/similar to the Sunni/Shia way of doing Salat? What if the Quranic Salat is completely different than the Salat of traditional islam (Sunni and Shia)? Have you ever thought about that?
Keep in mind that I have not said that Salat means prayer or does not mean prayer. I am not denying the possibility that the word Salat means prayer. But I think that in order to find the truth, one has to question ones beliefs about Salat. Personally, I don't care about "opinions" in regards to the teachings of the Quran. When it comes to the teachings of the Quran, I only care about "Quranic evidence" and "Quranic facts." Because the Quran speaks for itself. And the Quran is complete and fully detailed. Hence I think islam does not need any extra-quranic/non-quranic teachings.
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Easy to claim the Quran is incomplete without Bukhari & company. Does Jonathan not pause for a moment and listen to the words he utters? To claim that the Quran requires hadith books is to claim that Bukhari & co had to come to rescue and fill those empty gaps God left in the Quran. In other-words, God couldn't get a simple revelation right and needed the help of his own creation.
On top of that, prayer is not a robotic physical thing so his argument is baseless. -
To everyone who will inevitably bring up the words prayer and ritual, I'd like to nip this in the bud.
The salah, whatever it is, is a ritual. This is incontrovertible.
We are told that it is a timed obligation, and we are given specific times of the day to do it in, and we are told to stand, read in a medium voice, perform ablutions before it, etc.So no matter how you interpret salah, it is still a daily ritual, like brushing your teeth before bed, or taking a shower.
And I translate it as 'prayer' here for ease. Even if it's just reading out of the Quran and nothing else, I'd still count it as a 'prayer' of some sort.
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Peace
The reason why there aint given directly instructions on how to bend and bow how many time. Is because praying isn?t a time for counting and making a picture of your favorite prophet in you head, and truing to copy him.
Its simply up to yourselves to try to establish that contact.Then again there are given certain instructions about direction, voice and prayer/worship points.
But there aint a free ticket to heaven just if you following an exact instruction.Besides all that we are told to bow down with the ones who bow down (or kneel).(2.43) That verse have troubled me somehow,,
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The salah, whatever it is, is a ritual. This is incontrovertible.
I agree. I think Allah guides me to accept that Salat is ritual.
I think that basically, SALAT IS NOT PRAYER, Salat is solemn/earnest ritual,
however, prayer/s (from the Qur'an) could be included/performed in Salat,
and this daily ritual is to maintain and refresh our connection with Allah.
That's my understanding, currently.
We are told that it is a timed obligation, and we are given specific times of the day to do it in, and we are told to stand, read in a medium voice, perform ablutions before it,
Indeed. I can't deny those things.
So no matter how you interpret salah, it is still a daily ritual
*nod
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Peace ths and everyone else,
You are right when you say that Salat is a timed obligation. Since Salat is a "timed obligation" according to the Quran, there seems to be no doubt that Salat is a ritual. But is Salat a "Ritual prayer" or is it another type of ritual? I think that this is what we should be focusing on.
The notion that Salat is a ritual does not necessarily mean that it is a Ritual prayer IMO. Because "Ritual prayer" is not the only type of ritual that exists. There are other types of rituals as well.
If the Quranic Salat is completely different than the Salat of traditional islam (Sunni/Shia), does this suggest that the Sunni/Shia Salat is a non-quranic ritual? And if it is a non-quranic ritual, does this suggest that it is invented by humans? And if it is invented by Humans, does this suggest that we do not need to do it? Does God want us to do a ritual that God has not included in the Quran? Does islam need non-quranic or extra-quranic teachings in order to be complete and detailed? Please ponder on these questions.
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Peace JavaLatte,
I agree. I think Allah guides me to accept that Salat is ritual.
I think that basically, SALAT IS NOT PRAYER, Salat is solemn/earnest ritual,
however, prayer/s (from the Qur'an) could be included/performed in Salat,
and this daily ritual is to maintain and refresh our connection with Allah.
That's my understanding, currently.
bravo bravo bravo
Peace
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Peace Taro Hiroshi,
You are right when you say that Salat is a timed obligation. Since Salat is a "timed obligation" according to the Quran, there seems to be no doubt that Salat is a ritual. But is Salat a "Ritual prayer" or is it another type of ritual? I think that this is what we should be focusing on.
The notion that Salat is a ritual does not necessarily mean that it is a Ritual prayer IMO. Because "Ritual prayer" is not the only type of ritual that exists. There are other types of rituals as well.
If the Quranic Salat is completely different than the Salat of traditional islam (Sunni/Shia), does this suggest that the Sunni/Shia Salat is a non-quranic ritual? And if it is a non-quranic ritual, does this suggest that it is invented by humans? And if it is invented by Humans, does this suggest that we do not need to do it? Does God want us to do a ritual that God has not included in the Quran? Does islam need non-quranuc or extra-quranic teachings in order to be complete and detailed? Please ponder on these questions.
bravo bravo bravo
Peace
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I think that basically, SALAT IS NOT PRAYER, Salat is solemn/earnest ritual,
however, prayer/s (from the Qur'an) could be included/performed in Salat,
and this daily ritual is to maintain and refresh our connection with Allah.
That's my understanding, currently.
Indeed. I can't deny those things.
*nod
You might be right )
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Peace taro Hiroshi
The notion that Salat is a ritual does not necessarily mean that it is a Ritual prayer IMO. Because "Ritual prayer" is not the only type of ritual that exists. There are other types of rituals as well.
So what kind of ritual should it then be?
What about the bowing (2.43), prostating (53.62), direction(2.144), washing(5.6), thanksgiving (31.14), timing(4.103), and the posibility for making it together (2.43)
I can only see it as prayer. Or what do you call it. An other ritual preformed 3 - 5 times a day? -
Several times I have said other than prayer, assalat might be comunion. Comunion does nto have to be the eating of a corpse, but may be understoo in the larger meaning of union with God and with those who also unite with God. We take it usually that it is through prayer that we do that, but reduce it to prayer may be too narrow. Silence may be a way of comunion if we empty ourselves.
Salaam
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Peace Niels Jacob,
I think you raise some good points.
In my view, before one can understand what Salat is, one has to understand what Salat is not. If ones beliefs about Salat are based on evidence/proof/facts, then ones beliefs are true IMO. But if ones beliefs about Salat are not based on evidence/proof/facts, then ones beliefs seem to be baseless. And then I think it would be reasonable to reevaluate ones beliefs. In my view, the best way to find the truth about Salat is by using a logical/rational approach to Salat.
I am planning to write a post about Salat in the future. The post will tackle the objections you raised and some other objections as well. I will write the post about Salat in due time.
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Peace huruf,
Several times I have said other than prayer, assalat might be comunion. Comunion does nto have to be the eating of a corpse, but may be understoo in the larger meaning of union with God and with those who also unite with God. We take it usually that it is through prayer that we do that, but reduce it to prayer may be too narrow. Silence may be a way of comunion if we empty ourselves.
Wow! Amazing words!
bravo bravo bravo
Peace
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Peace NielsJacob,
So what kind of ritual should it then be?
What about the bowing (2.43), prostating (53.62), direction(2.144), washing(5.6), thanksgiving (31.14), timing(4.103), and the posibility for making it together (2.43)
I can only see it as prayer. Or what do you call it. An other ritual preformed 3 - 5 times a day?There is no direction in salat. 2144 has no SALAT in its context for miles. It has nothing to do with salat but is a mental focal point/target/purpose for believers wherever they might be (the truth from our lord).
243 is not about bowing during salat. There is zakat also mentioned in between ruku and salat. So do you PHYSICALLY BOW DURING ZAKAT ALSO? All it means is be humble with those who are humble. One can be humble during salat and zakat and at all times.
There is no verse that indicates ruku is only part of salat.
If I tell you
Eat healthy and exercise and focus with those who focus.
Would that mean that focus is something physical you do (like focusing your vision) while eating and exercising or would it mean a mental focus at all times?
5362 has no SALAT in context. It is talking about being obedient to allah. The only place where SUJUD seems to be directly part of salat is 4102.
243 is also not about possibility of making salat together. 629 and 4102 are about the group salat.
4103 has nothing to do with timing of salat. The salat timing verses are 11114 and 1778.
3114 is not about thanksgiving during salat. It is about thanksgiving in general. Please see 17111 which is relevant to what we are supposed to say during salat.
For prayer al-quran uses the word "du3a" and not salat. Salat can include prayer but it is much more than just prayer. It is "communion" or "intimate communication/connection" with allah.
"Ritual" is a bad word for it. More appropriate words would be "routine" or "practice".
Eating 3 times a day, or exercising once a day, are they "rituals", or are they "routines" or "practices"?
Peace
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Peace Taro Hiroshi
Peace Niels Jacob,
I think you raise some good points.
In my view, before one can understand what Salat is, one has to understand what Salat is not. If ones beliefs about Salat are based on evidence/proof/facts, then ones beliefs are true IMO. But if ones beliefs about Salat are not based on evidence/proof/facts, then ones beliefs seem to be baseless. And then I think it would be reasonable to reevaluate ones beliefs. In my view, the best way to find the truth about Salat is by using a logical/rational approach to Salat.
I am planning to write a post about Salat in the future. The post will tackle the objections you raised and some other objections as well. I will write the post about Salat in due time.
Inshallah
