Why Should We Believe the Quran is Divine?
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Okay. I read you.
I am not impossible, but this is not supported by my very extensive research. It just seems so sad if the corruption is deeper than only limited to Arabic.
I just did some brief investigation
It is not wrong to say means not in Arabic even by conventional grammar.
Samples from Hebrew
yeish li chadashot bishvilkha - I got news for you
(seems very similar to the use of in Arabic, the real interpretation)
?iyn
not, no, without, there is noWhat I do think is that the influence from (the fake) Arabic was immense among the Jewish people as well back then. 'lo/la' I doubt is a no word in the original tongue.
I am very persistent because there simply exists no sign in Quran that would mean 'no/not', even if it conflicts with Aramaic/Syriac/Hebrew. There has been conflicts before which only revealed further falsehood.
I am glad that you brought this up though, it gave me more to think about. It is a clear indicator to why the Old Testament looks like it does which uses a lot of Aramaic/Hebrew.
It is the same with that Qatal has for a long time been perceived as kill/slay while it does not mean that but it means master/subdue a person but also to successfully convince them.
Be safe
Amenuel -
The rule around Ma <like many aspects of the language> is dependent upon its context.
That is nonsense. No usable language would be so unspecific, especially a scripture like Quran allegedly from God, that you could have a passage where it would either mean what or no.
Be safe
Amanuel -
That is nonsense. No usable language would be so unspecific, especially a scripture like Quran allegedly from God, that you could have a passage where it would either mean what or no.
Be safe
AmanuelI'm sorry but you're completely incorrect, many languages have a context-based dependency on meaning, it's called Pragmatics.
It's clear that you're another person who frequents this forum who has very little knowledge of both Arabic and linguistics in general yet simultaneously makes many, MANY sweeping statements and claims without knowledge necessary to back it up - this is the height of arrogance.
I don't mean to insult Amenuel but until you begin to do some real research you're only decieving yourself. This is an endemic problem among many frequenters of Free-Minds.
If you want I can provide you plenty of examples in Arabic grammar where context is absolutely necessary for correct understanding.
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La! aush fi alsharq alwasath, wa ta'elam qaleelann min huna!
Haha, it's not the best, but I can pick up the general theme from arabic conversations and texts!
I respect Man Of Faith's effort. However I feel that what would be more useful, is a dictionary listing all possible word meanings from the words of the Quran. I assume that MOF has done something of the sort more or less, it's a shame if he does not share it. Mind you I am not saying he's all correct but at least it'll be out there for scrutiny and study.
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Peace Osman.
All the languages belong to GOD. HE created them like He created us. Arabic is not the "holy language" of GOD!
Does it matter if one does not understand Arabic? Will he/she not be able to understand Qoran?
Of course those who can read Arabic can appreciate the excellence of the literature structure of the Qoran.
But also those who do not, can appreciate the excellence of the message by reading the Qoran in any language.Anyway, probably about 80% of the "Muslims" in this world cannot read, understand or speak Arabic. Yet they managed to follow Bukhari and co with no problem?
in my opinion, only those who understand the purpose of the book will understand why it is in Arabic or non-Arabic. ,
God knows that that the true believer will get His message in any place that was destined to be, in any language that they speak.
God would not send a message that cannot be given to everyone clear and unambiguous.In short, It is the message of the Qoran that actually counts.
To me it is not an issue. I do not understand Arabic,but I am trying my best to understand Qoran.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Peace good logic,
Peace Osman.
All the languages belong to GOD. HE created them like He created us. Arabic is not the "holy language" of GOD!
Who started talking about Arabic being the "holy language"? Please stop putting words into my mouth.
Does it matter if one does not understand Arabic? Will he/she not be able to understand Qoran?
You've missed the point.
The issue relating to Man of Faith is that he's making many linguistic claims about Arabic yet its clear he doesn't know much of Arabic or linguistics in general.
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Peace Osman.
Iwas making a general statement. I am not putting words in your mouth.
When you said,quote
It's clear that you're another person who frequents this forum who has very little knowledge of both Arabic and linguistics in general ...
I answered this particular statement of yours.
Hope that clarifies for you.
Thank you.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Peace good logic,
Please stop it, you clearly weren't making a general statement.
Does it matter if one does not understand Arabic? Will he/she not be able to understand Qoran?
Of course those who can read Arabic can appreciate the excellence of the literature structure of the Qoran.
But also those who do not, can appreciate the excellence of the message by reading the Qoran in any language.Anyway, probably about 80% of the "Muslims" in this world cannot read, understand or speak Arabic. Yet they managed to follow Bukhari and co with no problem?
in my opinion, only those who understand the purpose of the book will understand why it is in Arabic or non-Arabic. ,
God knows that that the true believer will get His message in any place that was destined to be, in any language that they speak.
God would not send a message that cannot be given to everyone clear and unambiguous.In short, It is the message of the Qoran that actually counts.
To me it is not an issue. I do not understand Arabic,but I am trying my best to understand Qoran.
Again you completely missing the point, it does matter if those same people want to start making gradiose claims and stating anything else to be 'nonsense' when the reality is in fact the opposite.
It's clear that you're another person who frequents this forum who has very little knowledge of both Arabic and linguistics in general ...
I answered this particular statement of yours.
Hope that clarifies for you.
Peace.And this is the problem with Free-Minds, there are too many self-styled experts swanning about making a whole host of grandiose claims.
Maybe the problem is that I keep comparing Free-Minds to the other forums I'm frequenting where people actually engage in meaningful debate. I've heard more sense come from the Flat Earth forum than here.
I think a lot of people here have taken the term 'Free-Minds' too literally and let their brains fall out.
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Peace Osman.
I understand the point you are making .
However ,I was making another point that not knowing Arabic is not an issue. One can understand Qoran,regardless.
Just like you are entitled to make your point about people making "grandiose claims",when they do not know the linguistics....
No, I have not missed the point. Mine was a different ,relevant point,I hope.
As far as "free minds" goes,it does what it says on the tin. Every member is entitled to their say,good bad or indifferent,providing they do not break the rules and respect each other.
GOD bless you.
Peace.. -
I understand the point you are making .
If this is the case can you please respond to me properly in the future instead of responding to something I never said, it's getting a little tiresome.
However ,I was making another point that not knowing Arabic is not an issue. One can understand Qoran,regardless.
You didn't frame it as simply introducing another point to the discussion you framed it as a direct response to what I said.
Just like you are entitled to make your point about people making "grandiose claims",when they do not know the linguistics....
What we're talking about here is people challenging another group (usually Sunni muslims) making all kinds of silly claims and then when being questioned about it they have nothing to back it up.
It's quite funny you have an issue with me on this as you had the same disagreement with Man of Faith a few days ago, is this an attempt at getting me back? Because that's what it's coming across as and you really should be better than that good logic.
No, I have not missed the point. Mine was a different ,relevant point,I hope.
Not really, it was just the same old tired mantra that gets repeated at Free-Minds over and over and over again. Ultimately posts of this nature serve to reduce the quality of what could otherwise be an engaging debate.
As far as "free minds" goes,it does what it says on the tin. Every member is entitled to their say,good bad or indifferent,providing they do not break the rules and respect each other.
So again it seems you're confusing 'We're all entitled to our own opinion' with the actual matter at hand.
If you're going to go around making claims here and there and on every other topic about nothing is the way we think it is then be prepared for people to question you about it.
It's as simple as that.
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Hello Osman,
I am probably an expert at the Arabic language. Stop speaking preconceived ideas, please. Hard to be leading a reinterpretation and translation project not knowing much.
Edit You can have the opinion though. Feel free. But do please do not sound like everyone shares your opinion.
Be safe
Amenuel -
peace Osman.
When you say,quote
It's quite funny you have an issue with me on this as you had the same disagreement with Man of Faith a few days ago, is this an attempt at getting me back? Because that's what it's coming across as and you really should be better than that good logic.
I do not have an issue with you or with Man Of Faith or with any other person. I give a view about the point the person makes.
I hope I treat everyone the way I want to be treated, whether I agree or disagree with a view, I still respect the person .
Brother,with respect,expect me to keep tackling issues here,I will do my best to try and explain/evidence my opinions/views/arguments from Qoran.
However ,I will listen to those who have convincing/logical/Qoranic based arguments.I accept that I should have clarified my point in my earlier post and acknowledge that I should have introduced it a bit different.
Having said that, I did not relate it to any of your posts,even though I addressed you personally. Apologies.
Looking forward to our next conversation.
GOD bless you.
Peace -
Hello Osman,
I am probably an expert at the Arabic language.
No you're not. Stop lying. It's VERY clear that you're not.
Edit You can have the opinion though. Feel free. But do please do not sound like everyone shares your opinion.
Again, it's not about opinions, it's about backing up claims with facts.
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It's quite funny you have an issue with me on this as you had the same disagreement with Man of Faith a few days ago, is this an attempt at getting me back? Because that's what it's coming across as and you really should be better than that good logic.
Here is your quote to Man of Faith in the thread "Quran Alone Muslims Need To Connect With One Another"
Peace Man Of Faith.
When Jesus said "I am in the father and the father is in me" It does not mean - The father is me?!!!!!!
It could mean "Your GOD is whatever is in your mind 24/7?!!! Why not? ( If you love the father with all your heart ,with all your mind and with all your soul that is a good explanation for it?)
Please explain/publish/show clearly your Arabic and its meaning so people here are not" perplexed"( Your own word)
If you are still completing your studies( as you keep claiming) ,then please wait until all is ready so we can check your findings properly.
And
Peace Man Of Faith.
I do not believe you are insisting " Yasaa"in that verse means Isaiah?! This is nonsense.
Common brother, this is bordering on ridiculous. You are just insisting on your ways even when wrong?
I like your friendly platitudes towards me but they won't have any true meaning to me until you stop being a hypocrite.
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Peace Osman.
So you are saying I disagree with Man Of Faith. I have already said that to him.
I also disagree with your last comment, but I do not insult anyone or be personal.But that is your choice.
I do not see any benefit carrying on this conversation,brother. I have clearly explained and there is no more to add.
Thank you .
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Peace Osman.
So you are saying I disagree with Man Of Faith. I have already said that to him.
I also disagree with your last comment, but I do not insult anyone or be personal.But that is your choice.
I do not see any benefit carrying on this conversation,brother. I have clearly explained and there is no more to add.
Thank you .
GOD bless you.
Peace.You're being hypocritical in the fact that in this thread you're taking issue with me for questioning Man of Faith's claims with no evidence, whereas in another thread you did exactly the same thing to Man of Faith AND ON TOP OF THAT earlier in this thread we had an altercation about your posting with claims and no evidence.
I'm sorry if you're taking it personally but I have to tell you that I don't like the way you conduct yourself.
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Fa-Lam-Ha = cut/slit/crack/split/fissure, furrowed/plough/cultivate, agriculture, till the ground, to prosper be successful, attain/acquire, become fortunate/happy, become independent, permanence/lastingness/duration.
Arabic is a very descriptive language and reproductive organ could very well be "What you reproduce/attain/cultivate (with)" , i.e. using the objectifier . It could probably also be used to say what you HAVE attained/cultivated as in talking about your achievement, your harvest.
The fact that when I have independently analyzed it, it does not add up and when I just had an open mind and browsed ancient lexicons I realized something was fishy and I soon noticed that the understood grammar was beyond criticism, a joke. I have but few people with me, however I am very serious about this and the Arabic speaks for itself in my translations so there is little to argue about; I did not force the translations which are linguistically coherent yet reveal an entirely different discourse. In the end it is probably word against word and people have to decide what kind of translation makes sense and I am not going to give up without a fight and therefore my project contains everything a person evaluating needs, i.e. documentation, own lexicon et cetera; everything with a clear explanation to how I came up with many passages and words. I am sure the actual revealed discourse will make people convinced though; for the logical mind my translation makes much more sense and does not sound like what a sectarian cleric has come up with.
I do consider that Quranic Arabic is made or heavily influenced by God. Both Arabic and Aramaic use the same root system.
Having a holy place is simply against the old Mosaic Decree, but Muslims seem to have done away with it even if it was classified as eternal (for as long as this World is). You should not take an image of anything in Heaven (abstract) or Earth (physical) and worship it, and that includes a cubic building somewhere in the desert. It is hard to realize for most, but it is not much different from shaping a statue of stone and having it represent your god. That is against the Decree.
I know I often keep myself short, but that is because I cannot spend whole days on forums writing when "it is for nothing" with people that are not worth "investing in" (nothing personal) because they are not receptive enough. I do however not exclude anyone interested but that is why I am here and throwing out bait like a fisherman perchance anyone would perceive I am onto something.
I have a parable "I am a goodly shepherd but my fellow shepherd colleagues keep our sheep in a bad meadow and they are too naive, misinformed and do not trust me to move elsewhere and despite my whistling the sheep will simply not run over to where I have found a greener meadow and my colleagues do not believe me. Sadly there is a dense forest covering the sight towards the other meadow so I start to saw every tree down so that the sheep will see it and come running. Eventually after some tedious lonely work I manage to cut a sufficient amount of trees down and remove them so gradually more and more sheep begin to rebel against my colleague shepherds and rush across to the goodly meadow. But the old bad meadow is so famous so the image as the best meadow is hard to erase and foreign shepherds still have problems believing my eventually convinced colleague shepherds and me".
I hope you can see the parable for what it is. It is customary to use these sheep parables so why not.
My statements come from spending my whole life into understanding the Realm of God and every little tiny piece of information and I just do not go wholesale on something but I critically examine everything I run across, and I did the same with Quran and I simply was suspicious about its interpretation for a very long time before I even got involved at the level I am now.
I disprove of
- A separate objectified god that you can whatsoever not associate yourself with and that it is out of question
- Senseless rituals and rites
- A god that spits out his anger in a scripture because he does not get the attention he thinks he deserves (even if he does)
- A god that encourages worldliness
- A god that says "kill the disbelievers until they perform my ritual called salat"
- A god that will come (as if it is physical) with angels in waves on the "final day".
- A god on a throne (objectified deity)
- A holy house somewhere on Earth (e.g. Mecca)
- A god that speaks in its holy passages of its scriptures as if it is a worldly human writing (now that is false because it is the interpretation that just simply sucks)
- A god that on the first encounter with someone (Moses) first of all tells him that "I am with you as long as you perform my contact prayer (and only exactly as I taught you)". (Fortunately the passage says that "I am with you as long as you follow my guidance, but that is another story).
If you seek more I can easily probably write an A4 with points too.
I just see it as a fabricated revamped Pagan religion where all the separate multiple worldly gods have become one. I have learned that God is "Such Who Is"; it is a symbiotic phenomenon where there is for real absolute Oneness to the point that God is the only unit in existence and the only way to be alive is to merge in it, i.e. "under His umbrella", become assimilated.
Be safe
AmenuelI would believe you so much more if you were not a communist...
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What does the question that isthe title of this thread mean?
The Qur'an is divine?
What is being asked exactly?
I think the question is quite clear but Osman's responses not so clear. For example he had no reply to my post nor those providing evidence for the 365 "yawm" count.
