Why Should We Believe the Quran is Divine?

Osman

Peace good logic,

Please stop it, you clearly weren't making a general statement.

Does it matter if one does not understand Arabic? Will he/she not be able to understand Qoran?

Of course those who can read Arabic can appreciate the excellence of the literature structure of the Qoran.
But also those who do not, can appreciate the excellence of the message by reading the Qoran in any language.

Anyway, probably about 80% of the "Muslims" in this world cannot read, understand or speak Arabic. Yet they managed to follow Bukhari and co with no problem?

in my opinion, only those who understand the purpose of the book will understand why it is in Arabic or non-Arabic. ,

God knows that that the true believer will get His message in any place that was destined to be, in any language that they speak.
God would not send a message that cannot be given to everyone clear and unambiguous.

In short, It is the message of the Qoran that actually counts.

To me it is not an issue. I do not understand Arabic,but I am trying my best to understand Qoran.

Again you completely missing the point, it does matter if those same people want to start making gradiose claims and stating anything else to be 'nonsense' when the reality is in fact the opposite.

It's clear that you're another person who frequents this forum who has very little knowledge of both Arabic and linguistics in general ...

I answered this particular statement of yours.

Hope that clarifies for you.
Peace.

And this is the problem with Free-Minds, there are too many self-styled experts swanning about making a whole host of grandiose claims.

Maybe the problem is that I keep comparing Free-Minds to the other forums I'm frequenting where people actually engage in meaningful debate. I've heard more sense come from the Flat Earth forum than here.

I think a lot of people here have taken the term 'Free-Minds' too literally and let their brains fall out.

good_logic

Peace Osman.

I understand the point you are making .

However ,I was making another point that not knowing Arabic is not an issue. One can understand Qoran,regardless.

Just like you are entitled to make your point about people making "grandiose claims",when they do not know the linguistics....

No, I have not missed the point. Mine was a different ,relevant point,I hope.

As far as "free minds" goes,it does what it says on the tin. Every member is entitled to their say,good bad or indifferent,providing they do not break the rules and respect each other.

GOD bless you.
Peace..

Osman

I understand the point you are making .

If this is the case can you please respond to me properly in the future instead of responding to something I never said, it's getting a little tiresome.

However ,I was making another point that not knowing Arabic is not an issue. One can understand Qoran,regardless.

You didn't frame it as simply introducing another point to the discussion you framed it as a direct response to what I said.

Just like you are entitled to make your point about people making "grandiose claims",when they do not know the linguistics....

What we're talking about here is people challenging another group (usually Sunni muslims) making all kinds of silly claims and then when being questioned about it they have nothing to back it up.

It's quite funny you have an issue with me on this as you had the same disagreement with Man of Faith a few days ago, is this an attempt at getting me back? Because that's what it's coming across as and you really should be better than that good logic.

No, I have not missed the point. Mine was a different ,relevant point,I hope.

Not really, it was just the same old tired mantra that gets repeated at Free-Minds over and over and over again. Ultimately posts of this nature serve to reduce the quality of what could otherwise be an engaging debate.

As far as "free minds" goes,it does what it says on the tin. Every member is entitled to their say,good bad or indifferent,providing they do not break the rules and respect each other.

So again it seems you're confusing 'We're all entitled to our own opinion' with the actual matter at hand.

If you're going to go around making claims here and there and on every other topic about nothing is the way we think it is then be prepared for people to question you about it.

It's as simple as that.

Man_of_Faith

Hello Osman,

I am probably an expert at the Arabic language. Stop speaking preconceived ideas, please. Hard to be leading a reinterpretation and translation project not knowing much.

Edit You can have the opinion though. Feel free. But do please do not sound like everyone shares your opinion.

Be safe
Amenuel

good_logic

peace Osman.

When you say,quote

It's quite funny you have an issue with me on this as you had the same disagreement with Man of Faith a few days ago, is this an attempt at getting me back? Because that's what it's coming across as and you really should be better than that good logic.

I do not have an issue with you or with Man Of Faith or with any other person. I give a view about the point the person makes.

I hope I treat everyone the way I want to be treated, whether I agree or disagree with a view, I still respect the person .

Brother,with respect,expect me to keep tackling issues here,I will do my best to try and explain/evidence my opinions/views/arguments from Qoran.
However ,I will listen to those who have convincing/logical/Qoranic based arguments.

I accept that I should have clarified my point in my earlier post and acknowledge that I should have introduced it a bit different.

Having said that, I did not relate it to any of your posts,even though I addressed you personally. Apologies.

Looking forward to our next conversation.
GOD bless you.
Peace

Osman

Hello Osman,

I am probably an expert at the Arabic language.

No you're not. Stop lying. It's VERY clear that you're not.

Edit You can have the opinion though. Feel free. But do please do not sound like everyone shares your opinion.

Again, it's not about opinions, it's about backing up claims with facts.

Osman

It's quite funny you have an issue with me on this as you had the same disagreement with Man of Faith a few days ago, is this an attempt at getting me back? Because that's what it's coming across as and you really should be better than that good logic.

Here is your quote to Man of Faith in the thread "Quran Alone Muslims Need To Connect With One Another"

Peace Man Of Faith.

When Jesus said "I am in the father and the father is in me" It does not mean - The father is me?!!!!!!

It could mean "Your GOD is whatever is in your mind 24/7?!!! Why not? ( If you love the father with all your heart ,with all your mind and with all your soul that is a good explanation for it?)

Please explain/publish/show clearly your Arabic and its meaning so people here are not" perplexed"( Your own word)

If you are still completing your studies( as you keep claiming) ,then please wait until all is ready so we can check your findings properly.

And

Peace Man Of Faith.

I do not believe you are insisting " Yasaa"in that verse means Isaiah?! This is nonsense.

Common brother, this is bordering on ridiculous. You are just insisting on your ways even when wrong?

I like your friendly platitudes towards me but they won't have any true meaning to me until you stop being a hypocrite.

good_logic

Peace Osman.

So you are saying I disagree with Man Of Faith. I have already said that to him.
I also disagree with your last comment, but I do not insult anyone or be personal.

But that is your choice.

I do not see any benefit carrying on this conversation,brother. I have clearly explained and there is no more to add.

Thank you .
GOD bless you.
Peace.

Osman

Peace Osman.

So you are saying I disagree with Man Of Faith. I have already said that to him.
I also disagree with your last comment, but I do not insult anyone or be personal.

But that is your choice.

I do not see any benefit carrying on this conversation,brother. I have clearly explained and there is no more to add.

Thank you .
GOD bless you.
Peace.

You're being hypocritical in the fact that in this thread you're taking issue with me for questioning Man of Faith's claims with no evidence, whereas in another thread you did exactly the same thing to Man of Faith AND ON TOP OF THAT earlier in this thread we had an altercation about your posting with claims and no evidence.

I'm sorry if you're taking it personally but I have to tell you that I don't like the way you conduct yourself.

mmmm

Fa-Lam-Ha = cut/slit/crack/split/fissure, furrowed/plough/cultivate, agriculture, till the ground, to prosper be successful, attain/acquire, become fortunate/happy, become independent, permanence/lastingness/duration.

Arabic is a very descriptive language and reproductive organ could very well be "What you reproduce/attain/cultivate (with)" , i.e. using the objectifier . It could probably also be used to say what you HAVE attained/cultivated as in talking about your achievement, your harvest.

The fact that when I have independently analyzed it, it does not add up and when I just had an open mind and browsed ancient lexicons I realized something was fishy and I soon noticed that the understood grammar was beyond criticism, a joke. I have but few people with me, however I am very serious about this and the Arabic speaks for itself in my translations so there is little to argue about; I did not force the translations which are linguistically coherent yet reveal an entirely different discourse. In the end it is probably word against word and people have to decide what kind of translation makes sense and I am not going to give up without a fight and therefore my project contains everything a person evaluating needs, i.e. documentation, own lexicon et cetera; everything with a clear explanation to how I came up with many passages and words. I am sure the actual revealed discourse will make people convinced though; for the logical mind my translation makes much more sense and does not sound like what a sectarian cleric has come up with.

I do consider that Quranic Arabic is made or heavily influenced by God. Both Arabic and Aramaic use the same root system.

Having a holy place is simply against the old Mosaic Decree, but Muslims seem to have done away with it even if it was classified as eternal (for as long as this World is). You should not take an image of anything in Heaven (abstract) or Earth (physical) and worship it, and that includes a cubic building somewhere in the desert. It is hard to realize for most, but it is not much different from shaping a statue of stone and having it represent your god. That is against the Decree.

I know I often keep myself short, but that is because I cannot spend whole days on forums writing when "it is for nothing" with people that are not worth "investing in" (nothing personal) because they are not receptive enough. I do however not exclude anyone interested but that is why I am here and throwing out bait like a fisherman perchance anyone would perceive I am onto something.

I have a parable "I am a goodly shepherd but my fellow shepherd colleagues keep our sheep in a bad meadow and they are too naive, misinformed and do not trust me to move elsewhere and despite my whistling the sheep will simply not run over to where I have found a greener meadow and my colleagues do not believe me. Sadly there is a dense forest covering the sight towards the other meadow so I start to saw every tree down so that the sheep will see it and come running. Eventually after some tedious lonely work I manage to cut a sufficient amount of trees down and remove them so gradually more and more sheep begin to rebel against my colleague shepherds and rush across to the goodly meadow. But the old bad meadow is so famous so the image as the best meadow is hard to erase and foreign shepherds still have problems believing my eventually convinced colleague shepherds and me".

I hope you can see the parable for what it is. It is customary to use these sheep parables so why not.

My statements come from spending my whole life into understanding the Realm of God and every little tiny piece of information and I just do not go wholesale on something but I critically examine everything I run across, and I did the same with Quran and I simply was suspicious about its interpretation for a very long time before I even got involved at the level I am now.

I disprove of

A separate objectified god that you can whatsoever not associate yourself with and that it is out of question
Senseless rituals and rites
A god that spits out his anger in a scripture because he does not get the attention he thinks he deserves (even if he does)
A god that encourages worldliness
A god that says "kill the disbelievers until they perform my ritual called salat"
A god that will come (as if it is physical) with angels in waves on the "final day".
A god on a throne (objectified deity)
A holy house somewhere on Earth (e.g. Mecca)
A god that speaks in its holy passages of its scriptures as if it is a worldly human writing (now that is false because it is the interpretation that just simply sucks)
A god that on the first encounter with someone (Moses) first of all tells him that "I am with you as long as you perform my contact prayer (and only exactly as I taught you)". (Fortunately the passage says that "I am with you as long as you follow my guidance, but that is another story).

If you seek more I can easily probably write an A4 with points too.

I just see it as a fabricated revamped Pagan religion where all the separate multiple worldly gods have become one. I have learned that God is "Such Who Is"; it is a symbiotic phenomenon where there is for real absolute Oneness to the point that God is the only unit in existence and the only way to be alive is to merge in it, i.e. "under His umbrella", become assimilated.

Be safe
Amenuel

I would believe you so much more if you were not a communist...

huruf

What does the question that isthe title of this thread mean?

The Qur'an is divine?

What is being asked exactly?

Everythingis divineis by divine we understand divine creation.

So what isbeing asked exactly?

Salaam

Wakas

What does the question that isthe title of this thread mean?

The Qur'an is divine?

What is being asked exactly?

I think the question is quite clear but Osman's responses not so clear. For example he had no reply to my post nor those providing evidence for the 365 "yawm" count.

Osman

I think the question is quite clear but Osman's responses not so clear. For example he had no reply to my post nor those providing evidence for the 365 "yawm" count.

The reason for this is I made myself clear a while back that I got what I needed from the first two dozen responses in this thread and I just lost interest after that, yeah I've piped up a couple of times but for more than a week now this conversation this conversation has rolled along without me.

There's only so much flakiness a guy can take you know?

But I'll do as you ask Wakas, I'll read through this entire thread and respond to everyone.

Man_of_Faith

Hello mmmm,

Haha, so my political ideas make you not believe in me? That is a bit silly actually, do you not think? It is like someone speaking the truth, but you will not believe this person because he votes for the wrong political party? rotfl

It is also a human instinctive fallacy, because I belong to an opponent party I must be treated as such no matter if I actually say something wise. You have probably been fed anti-communistic propaganda through your whole life and never really understood what it is except what you have heard from countries that only kept communism as a guise but were dictatorships.

Much like anarchy, communism in practice is likely a utopia, but what I wrote about sure is idealistic and that is how God's Kingdom will/does look like.

Be safe
Amenuel

reel

First of all, brother Osman, I actually don't see any hint of you not thinking Quran to be divine. Maybe you are in doubt?

why on earth should anyone believe that the Quran is divine?

Majority of the Muslims actually have no idea about that whole numerology thing. They don't even read the book. But the reason why they think it is divine is because the verses helped them! It happened to me several times. Hence, I didn't require any mathematical proof or scientific facts to believe that Quran is from God. On the other side of the line, we have wicca/satanic tricks which do help people fulfill their wishes. But the effects do not last long and they come with burden such as financial loss, relationship wars, depression, etc.

On what authority do we have that the Quran is divine and sent from the ruler of the universe and therefore serves as the basis and framework for what we should follow?

This can be known if you give up everything that Quran tells humans to follow
http//josvoskuil.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/dummies_logo.png
Few examples of how to not follow Quran
Stealing
Killing randomly anywhere any time
Disrespecting women's needs and rights
Burring female babies ALIVE
Threatening and forcing people to agree with what you believe (Pharaoh style)
Constant anger
Torturing parents
Eating up money of orphans

I know the opposite is pretty much part of a nation's laws and we know the root of that. But just see what happens by experimenting.

peace

ths

Frankly from my point of view, this entire "all Semitic languages are a conspiracy" argument that Man of Faith keeps proselytizing in every single thread is worse than useless - it's directly counterproductive and derails every thread.

Man of Faith, there's no evidence whatsoever that you know even basic Arabic. And instead of accepting this, you keep pushing the boundaries further and are now claiming that Hebrew and Syriac and Aramaic 'have been tampered with'. This has really reached the boundaries of believability at this point.

Secondly - you keep saying that means no. It doesn't. No is or

actually means several things depending on the context. It can mean

What. As in / / / /
That / that which. As in / /
A one. As in /
Somewhat / to some extent. As in
Not. As in /

And frankly, there are probably more contextual meanings to when it is paired with other words, like . But alas, I am no expert like you.

almarh0m

Frankly from my point of view, this entire "all Semitic languages are a conspiracy" argument that Man of Faith keeps proselytizing in every single thread is worse than useless - it's directly counterproductive and derails every thread.

Man of Faith, there's no evidence whatsoever that you know even basic Arabic. And instead of accepting this, you keep pushing the boundaries further and are now claiming that Hebrew and Syriac and Aramaic 'have been tampered with'. This has really reached the boundaries of believability at this point.

Secondly - you keep saying that means no. It doesn't. No is or

actually means several things depending on the context. It can mean

What. As in / / / /
That / that which. As in / /
A one. As in /
Somewhat / to some extent. As in
Not. As in /

And frankly, there are probably more contextual meanings to when it is paired with other words, like . But alas, I am no expert like you.

Peace

No one should have to believe in anything unless they know that what they believe is true, and if you know that someone is always trying to derail a thread, then stop feeding the troll.

Osman

First of all, brother Osman, I actually don't see any hint of you not thinking Quran to be divine.

Yes, the point isn't what I believe, the point of my thread was to see how the members of this forum respond, I am looking at the members of Free-Minds as a community and how they interact and behave as a community.

And yes, as you say most of the Muslim world doesn't even use the 'Qur'anic numerology miracles', it's very much an online phenomenon among Submitters and the like. It was widely popular in the Muslim world as a flavour of the month news piece back in the 90s but quickly got forgotten about when people actually looked into it in detail (I wonder why?!) )

Osman

Frankly from my point of view, this entire "all Semitic languages are a conspiracy" argument that Man of Faith keeps proselytizing in every single thread is worse than useless - it's directly counterproductive and derails every thread.

Thank you for adding some sanity ths. It's exactly as you say NEARLY EVERY THREAD IS BEING DERAILED with poor quality comments from the same members over and over and over again and this is what's so frustrating trying to have an adult conversation here. I genuinely get more productive discussion and debate on Sunni and Flat Earth forums, people here don't seem to care, and this is what's disturbing.

Man of Faith, there's no evidence whatsoever that you know even basic Arabic. And instead of accepting this, you keep pushing the boundaries further and are now claiming that Hebrew and Syriac and Aramaic 'have been tampered with'. This has really reached the boundaries of believability at this point.

In fact, from the many factual errors he's spouting, we have all the evidence to show he doesn't know Arabic. Yet he persists in lying, I see this among several members of the Free-Minds community, the same members who look down upon Sunni and Shi'i for being supposed liars.

It's blatant hypocrisy, and I don't care if good logic says I'm making personal attacks, if you're going to lie, or going to be evasive or subversive, I'm going to call you out. Deal with it.

And frankly, there are probably more contextual meanings to when it is paired with other words, like . But alas, I am no expert like you.

I also wouldn't consider myself an expert in Arabic, I'm not an Arab I'm Turkomen, but I know a good deal of Arabic to see a pretender.

I'm also seeing a pattern where the mods will only chirp in when they think someone is being 'traditional' and they'll chirp in at that person but not the New Age loon who's making the claims in the first place.

This community is lost.

ths

This community is lost.

It looks like the older users have all disappeared and this forum has become a sort of rubbish bin of the most extreme irrational conspiracy theories based on the absolute flimsiest least consistent methods of analysis imaginable.

It was widely popular in the Muslim world as a flavour of the month news piece back in the 90s but quickly got forgotten about when people actually looked into it in detail (I wonder why?!)

I have to disagree with you here about the so-called number miracles. Firstly I'd say that they are still very popular amongst mainstream Muslims of all kinds. And Adnan al-Rifai has his own tv show now where he exclusively deals with the 19 code and numerological coincidences of this sort.

But secondly, I proved a few of these for myself. I posted screenshots of the program Zekr that I used for the searches in this thread

Dunya and Akhera = 115. See here and here.

Day = 365. See here. Also, another user provided earlier in this thread a list of every single verse.

Days = 30. See here

Month = 12. See here

So in my opinion there are definitely some very thought-provoking numerical coincidences in the Quran. What is the mathematical probability of finding a random book that has 'day' 365 times, 'days' 30 times and 'month' 12 times?

Is is absolute proof that the Quran is divinely inspired? No it isn't, as this can be faked. However, it is indubitable proof that the Quran is not a jumbled bunch of politically suitable ideas that were accumulated by the state and the clergy over 100s of years, as has previously been argued by some academics like Patricia Krone and Michael Cook and others.

So you can either believe that these are random 'coincidences', or you can believe that the author or authors of the Quran put them there on purpose and sat around 1400 years in their mud huts tediously counting words. Or you can believe that they are random products of the divine inspiration.