Why Should We Believe the Quran is Divine?
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What does the question that isthe title of this thread mean?
The Qur'an is divine?
What is being asked exactly?
I think the question is quite clear but Osman's responses not so clear. For example he had no reply to my post nor those providing evidence for the 365 "yawm" count.
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I think the question is quite clear but Osman's responses not so clear. For example he had no reply to my post nor those providing evidence for the 365 "yawm" count.
The reason for this is I made myself clear a while back that I got what I needed from the first two dozen responses in this thread and I just lost interest after that, yeah I've piped up a couple of times but for more than a week now this conversation this conversation has rolled along without me.
There's only so much flakiness a guy can take you know?
But I'll do as you ask Wakas, I'll read through this entire thread and respond to everyone.
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Hello mmmm,
Haha, so my political ideas make you not believe in me? That is a bit silly actually, do you not think? It is like someone speaking the truth, but you will not believe this person because he votes for the wrong political party? rotfl
It is also a human instinctive fallacy, because I belong to an opponent party I must be treated as such no matter if I actually say something wise. You have probably been fed anti-communistic propaganda through your whole life and never really understood what it is except what you have heard from countries that only kept communism as a guise but were dictatorships.
Much like anarchy, communism in practice is likely a utopia, but what I wrote about sure is idealistic and that is how God's Kingdom will/does look like.
Be safe
Amenuel -
First of all, brother Osman, I actually don't see any hint of you not thinking Quran to be divine. Maybe you are in doubt?
why on earth should anyone believe that the Quran is divine?
Majority of the Muslims actually have no idea about that whole numerology thing. They don't even read the book. But the reason why they think it is divine is because the verses helped them! It happened to me several times. Hence, I didn't require any mathematical proof or scientific facts to believe that Quran is from God. On the other side of the line, we have wicca/satanic tricks which do help people fulfill their wishes. But the effects do not last long and they come with burden such as financial loss, relationship wars, depression, etc.
On what authority do we have that the Quran is divine and sent from the ruler of the universe and therefore serves as the basis and framework for what we should follow?
This can be known if you give up everything that Quran tells humans to follow
http//josvoskuil.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/dummies_logo.png
Few examples of how to not follow Quran
Stealing
Killing randomly anywhere any time
Disrespecting women's needs and rights
Burring female babies ALIVE
Threatening and forcing people to agree with what you believe (Pharaoh style)
Constant anger
Torturing parents
Eating up money of orphansI know the opposite is pretty much part of a nation's laws and we know the root of that. But just see what happens by experimenting.
peace
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Frankly from my point of view, this entire "all Semitic languages are a conspiracy" argument that Man of Faith keeps proselytizing in every single thread is worse than useless - it's directly counterproductive and derails every thread.
Man of Faith, there's no evidence whatsoever that you know even basic Arabic. And instead of accepting this, you keep pushing the boundaries further and are now claiming that Hebrew and Syriac and Aramaic 'have been tampered with'. This has really reached the boundaries of believability at this point.
Secondly - you keep saying that means no. It doesn't. No is or
actually means several things depending on the context. It can mean
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What. As in / / / /
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That / that which. As in / /
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A one. As in /
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Somewhat / to some extent. As in
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Not. As in /
And frankly, there are probably more contextual meanings to when it is paired with other words, like . But alas, I am no expert like you.
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Frankly from my point of view, this entire "all Semitic languages are a conspiracy" argument that Man of Faith keeps proselytizing in every single thread is worse than useless - it's directly counterproductive and derails every thread.
Man of Faith, there's no evidence whatsoever that you know even basic Arabic. And instead of accepting this, you keep pushing the boundaries further and are now claiming that Hebrew and Syriac and Aramaic 'have been tampered with'. This has really reached the boundaries of believability at this point.
Secondly - you keep saying that means no. It doesn't. No is or
actually means several things depending on the context. It can mean
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What. As in / / / /
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That / that which. As in / /
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A one. As in /
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Somewhat / to some extent. As in
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Not. As in /
And frankly, there are probably more contextual meanings to when it is paired with other words, like . But alas, I am no expert like you.
Peace
No one should have to believe in anything unless they know that what they believe is true, and if you know that someone is always trying to derail a thread, then stop feeding the troll.
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First of all, brother Osman, I actually don't see any hint of you not thinking Quran to be divine.
Yes, the point isn't what I believe, the point of my thread was to see how the members of this forum respond, I am looking at the members of Free-Minds as a community and how they interact and behave as a community.
And yes, as you say most of the Muslim world doesn't even use the 'Qur'anic numerology miracles', it's very much an online phenomenon among Submitters and the like. It was widely popular in the Muslim world as a flavour of the month news piece back in the 90s but quickly got forgotten about when people actually looked into it in detail (I wonder why?!) )
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Frankly from my point of view, this entire "all Semitic languages are a conspiracy" argument that Man of Faith keeps proselytizing in every single thread is worse than useless - it's directly counterproductive and derails every thread.
Thank you for adding some sanity ths. It's exactly as you say NEARLY EVERY THREAD IS BEING DERAILED with poor quality comments from the same members over and over and over again and this is what's so frustrating trying to have an adult conversation here. I genuinely get more productive discussion and debate on Sunni and Flat Earth forums, people here don't seem to care, and this is what's disturbing.
Man of Faith, there's no evidence whatsoever that you know even basic Arabic. And instead of accepting this, you keep pushing the boundaries further and are now claiming that Hebrew and Syriac and Aramaic 'have been tampered with'. This has really reached the boundaries of believability at this point.
In fact, from the many factual errors he's spouting, we have all the evidence to show he doesn't know Arabic. Yet he persists in lying, I see this among several members of the Free-Minds community, the same members who look down upon Sunni and Shi'i for being supposed liars.
It's blatant hypocrisy, and I don't care if good logic says I'm making personal attacks, if you're going to lie, or going to be evasive or subversive, I'm going to call you out. Deal with it.
And frankly, there are probably more contextual meanings to when it is paired with other words, like . But alas, I am no expert like you.
I also wouldn't consider myself an expert in Arabic, I'm not an Arab I'm Turkomen, but I know a good deal of Arabic to see a pretender.
I'm also seeing a pattern where the mods will only chirp in when they think someone is being 'traditional' and they'll chirp in at that person but not the New Age loon who's making the claims in the first place.
This community is lost.
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This community is lost.
It looks like the older users have all disappeared and this forum has become a sort of rubbish bin of the most extreme irrational conspiracy theories based on the absolute flimsiest least consistent methods of analysis imaginable.
It was widely popular in the Muslim world as a flavour of the month news piece back in the 90s but quickly got forgotten about when people actually looked into it in detail (I wonder why?!)
I have to disagree with you here about the so-called number miracles. Firstly I'd say that they are still very popular amongst mainstream Muslims of all kinds. And Adnan al-Rifai has his own tv show now where he exclusively deals with the 19 code and numerological coincidences of this sort.
But secondly, I proved a few of these for myself. I posted screenshots of the program Zekr that I used for the searches in this thread
Dunya and Akhera = 115. See here and here.
Day = 365. See here. Also, another user provided earlier in this thread a list of every single verse.
Days = 30. See here
Month = 12. See here
So in my opinion there are definitely some very thought-provoking numerical coincidences in the Quran. What is the mathematical probability of finding a random book that has 'day' 365 times, 'days' 30 times and 'month' 12 times?
Is is absolute proof that the Quran is divinely inspired? No it isn't, as this can be faked. However, it is indubitable proof that the Quran is not a jumbled bunch of politically suitable ideas that were accumulated by the state and the clergy over 100s of years, as has previously been argued by some academics like Patricia Krone and Michael Cook and others.
So you can either believe that these are random 'coincidences', or you can believe that the author or authors of the Quran put them there on purpose and sat around 1400 years in their mud huts tediously counting words. Or you can believe that they are random products of the divine inspiration.
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Hello mmmm,
Haha, so my political ideas make you not believe in me? That is a bit silly actually, do you not think? It is like someone speaking the truth, but you will not believe this person because he votes for the wrong political party? rotfl
It is also a human instinctive fallacy, because I belong to an opponent party I must be treated as such no matter if I actually say something wise. You have probably been fed anti-communistic propaganda through your whole life and never really understood what it is except what you have heard from countries that only kept communism as a guise but were dictatorships.
Much like anarchy, communism in practice is likely a utopia, but what I wrote about sure is idealistic and that is how God's Kingdom will/does look like.
Be safe
AmenuelThanks for answering me. No, I do not think is silly because it shows that you approve of the oppression in this world. You didn't understand that the only way to peace is freedom and that you cannot justify stealing and oppressive measures no matter what. That to me shows that your reasoning is not quite there yet. Anarchy is not utopian, but people expectations of it are. It is the system which we all should thrive to achieve - total freedom, responsibility and voluntarism - no gods/rulers in human form to write laws with their own hands. Maybe you don't understand anarchy - I personally believe that Quran is talking about that above all else.
I understand communism (I lived under it) and any other government system - it is parasitic and compulsory and created to enslave humanity ruled by psychopaths - nothing good can come out of it. Please research the anatomy of the state and see for yourself.
I am sorry about that really because I agree with you on so many cases... -
I think the question is quite clear but Osman's responses not so clear. For example he had no reply to my post nor those providing evidence for the 365 "yawm" count.
No, I do not think the question is quite clear, not by a long stretch. In fact I find tht it is confusing and thaat therebycome all those things that seem to turn araound without any end to it and to no avail.
I do think osman should make clear what he is exactly asking.
Salaam
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Peace Osman
Qoran makes a bold claim that it is from the Lord of the universe.
People should study it and find out for themselves if that statement is true? Or not bother at all?
I do not know what you want for an answer.
If you believes Qoran is divine, why not share your evidence here?
If you do not ,why not say so and debate/refute all the answers and links already given here by others?I really do not know what you want. exactly?
I have also noticed,when others disagree with you or state different views you comment on the forum community as a whole?
Example, quoteThis community is lost.
Please clarify your position for people here who are not sure why you are asking this question?
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Yes, the point isn't what I believe, the point of my thread was to see how the members of this forum respond, I am looking at the members of Free-Minds as a community and how they interact and behave as a community.
Thanks for the clarification brother. Looking at other members' posts, I would have to assert that they gave you the answers. Good logic, Wakas, TheUnseenLight, Taro Hiroshi and a few others have given their own perspective on why they think it is divine. Since its a free forum, you will also get disagreement. So unfortunately, it won't be possible to a consensus.
Sure it is available at sunni/shia forums because they usually ban the one holding a view different than theirs. rotfl
