Harut and Marut
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Peace be upon you Brother Fazl,
Can you refer here "a proper use of knowledge used thus far" by any individual in the world history so that they had attained the wisdom with no negative effects in it?
Please clarify this question.
Now I think the question and answer are to be clarified together. You cannot properly apply your knowledge to attain wisdom is the answer. Knowledge and wisdom are far apart and face the opposite directions.
Concept is the reading itself. Confusion is what is going on as discussions in each one's view, for example symbolism which view is still being explained with great difficulty in different wordings and written and rewritten to himself. As I stick to the concept of the reading, not inventing symbolism to every true event and history mentioned in the reading, it is highly unlikely that I should bring uncertainty and unbecoming of you to charge that I bring in confusion.
Please give an example of the difficulty of the symbolic explanation. Just one example.
The unstable society for the sea is confusion and many more you yourself had admitted the symbolism were not being arrived at; you 're working on them and so on. The symbolism you gave for musa was another one.Then the mountains as stable government cannot fit into one's logic and i can mention more but i feel it is enough at this stage.
See the confusion is in your own level of understanding. In your statement you say, Knowledge is not knowledge but what you KNOW which means there is much higher and above than whatever little that you know of. What do you call your knowledge now? Lesser one? or Absolute?
The error that is happening here is that "knowledge" is set out by itself, it needs to be restated as the "knowledge regarding x". This way the question can be properly answered. If we just speak of the blanket term "knowledge" , then we can never say it is absolute. So please rephrase the statement and indicate the "X " you are referring to. For example, my knowledge about water freezing at 32 degees is solid. It is wisdom to use this knowledge to keep items that need to be frozen cold, or to cool my drink, etc.
You are trying your best to give a different idea here, yet if you see in my quote given above in italics Knowledge is not knowledge but what you KNOW - it has your desired indicator x inherent in it. Regarding your 32 degrees, i am not prepared to deal that here because this is a reply to the already spoken subject.
We must discuss what is evidence. There is a many slip between the cup and the lip.
What do you mean by "cup" and "lip"? Is that some kind of symbolism?
No! Ordinary exchange of speech amongst us. It was not from the reading, to remind you. You are in confusion as to identify between what is from the reading and what is humanly spoken.
If you are interested there are many things to be found between the KNOW that you know, and that you are YET TO KNOW, regarding the term EVIDENCE. The word has very close proximity to the true knowledge, the Wisdom.
If there is something you know that I don't know, then say it right now, with no delay, clearly. I am listening
.In this mess? No. Take it as a subject clear from this and make it exclusive, in just the same way as you started Wisdom vs. knowledge.
Let me remind you again, YOU began this by stating that it is WRONG to say what the God tells us to SAY in this reading(quran).
Amazing! You have bracketted quran assuming it to be the same as the reading. I remind you, it is the reading. You have to get the quran as explanation only from Him through the purification at heart. It is wrong to asume the reading is quran. No wonder you have taken the term SAY so literally, sothat you think you are commanded to SAY to others Peace instead of invoking God for peace.
I have no problem with the greeting "May The God give us all Peace", but I rather state it as it is stated in this reading(quran), which is "Peace be upon you". What do you make of the following verse?
(58 ...and if they came to you, they greeted you with what The God does not greet you with it,
We must be mindful when we use Peace here in every post greeting each other and fear Allah for Allah alone can grant us peace.
And they( the rejecters) say in their minds "If only The God tortures us because what we say." Enough for them Hell they suffer it , so how bad the end?
The above is self explanatory.
Let me ask you , do we stop reciting this message to mankind because it APPEARS to not be working?
Not appears 'not to be working'. It is not and it cannot be working. Saying 'peace' does not produce peace except that when He delivers it. so recite more to get at the truth. It is very fortunate you have not started so far the symbolism for 'peace'.
So I will return the question to you once again brother, the God's prophets and messengers have been SAYING the God's Word to mankind since "from the time eternal". Should we discontinue spreading, that is SAYING the God's message because its message of PEACE has not yielded , what you desire as, sufficient fruits? Please answer.
The Prophets and the messengers were saying the quran not the reading. So recite more and rehearse more and get inspired with quran and SAY invoking Allah and seeking protection from shaitan at the same time.
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Peace be upon you Brother Fazl,
Fazl
Can you refer here "a proper use of knowledge used thus far" by any individual in the world history so that they had attained the wisdom with no negative effects in it?Me
Please clarify this question.Fazl
Now I think the question and answer are to be clarified together. You cannot properly apply your knowledge to attain wisdom is the answer. Knowledge and wisdom are far apart and face the opposite directions.I asked you to clarify the question and you did not even ask any question in your response, much less clarify anything.
Me
Please give an example of the difficulty of the symbolic explanation. Just one example.The unstable society for the sea is confusion
What exactly is confusing about this, please te, me exactly so we can resolve this.
and many more you yourself had admitted the symbolism were not being arrived at; you 're working on them and so on.
If I am working on understanding certain ones, then I have stated so. But in regards to large water representing "non stability" I am done with that one. Is there some error you see with that?
Also, you stated in another thread that "kitaab" means peaceful heart. My questin is , how do you arrive at that conclusion. I can show you clearly how I arrive at my conclusions, but you have yet to explain this one.
The symbolism you gave for musa was another one
Please be more specific brother. What is it about the symbolism of Musa that you find to be confused?
Then the mountains as stable government cannot fit into one's logic and i can mention more but i feel it is enough at this stage.
Why does it not fit into one's logic? What does it mean to you that Noah's son sought refuge from the flood from some mountain? How do you apply that vers to life?
The error that is happening here is that "knowledge" is set out by itself, it needs to be restated as the "knowledge regarding x". This way the question can be properly answered. If we just speak of the blanket term "knowledge" , then we can never say it is absolute. So please rephrase the statement and indicate the "X " you are referring to. For example, my knowledge about water freezing at 32 degees is solid. It is wisdom to use this knowledge to keep items that need to be frozen cold, or to cool my drink, etc.
You are trying your best to give a different idea here, yet if you see in my quote given above in italics Knowledge is not knowledge but what you KNOW - it has your desired indicator x inherent in it. Regarding your 32 degrees, i am not prepared to deal that here because this is a reply to the already spoken subject.
You are not giving any proofs of anything. You are only expressing your FEELINGS.
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We must discuss what is evidence. There is a many slip between the cup and the lip.What do you mean by "cup" and "lip"? Is that some kind of symbolism?
No! Ordinary exchange of speech amongst us. It was not from the reading, to remind you. You are in confusion as to identify between what is from the reading and what is humanly spoken.
I see D I guess "quran" is some alien language that only you have "true" knowledge of, is that the case?
If there is something you know that I don't know, then say it right now, with no delay, clearly. I am listening
In this mess? No. Take it as a subject clear from this and make it exclusive, in just the same way as you started Wisdom vs. knowledge.
Broter, it is you who claims the ultimate true knowledge, so please start a thread of instruction that I can follow, you can call it "Lessons from Dr Fazl". I will be awaiting it.
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Let me remind you again, YOU began this by stating that it is WRONG to say what the God tells us to SAY in this reading(quran).Amazing! You have bracketted quran assuming it to be the same as the reading.
It is AMAZING that you just noticed this when I have done this for a LOOOONG time now. Also please pay attention to the entire phrase "THIS reading".
I remind you, it is the reading. You have to get the quran as explanation only from Him through the purification at heart. It is wrong to asume the reading is quran. No wonder you have taken the term SAY so literally, sothat you think you are commanded to SAY to others Peace instead of invoking God for peace.
Slow down, please give me your understanding of the word "quran".
I have no problem with the greeting "May The God give us all Peace", but I rather state it as it is stated in this reading(quran), which is "Peace be upon you". What do you make of the following verse?
(58 ...and if they came to you, they greeted you with what The God does not greet you with it,
Fazl
We must be mindful when we use Peace here in every post greeting each other and fear Allah for Allah alone can grant us peace.Should I take that as you cannot formulate a response to my question?
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And they( the rejecters) say in their minds "If only The God tortures us because what we say." Enough for them Hell they suffer it , so how bad the end?The above is self explanatory.
Please explain it.
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Let me ask you , do we stop reciting this message to mankind because it APPEARS to not be working?Not appears 'not to be working'. It is not and it cannot be working. Saying 'peace' does not produce peace except that when He delivers it. so recite more to get at the truth. It is very fortunate you have not started so far the symbolism for 'peace'.
Perhaps you did not understand my question, since the GODS MESSAGE has been recited from the beginning, do we stop SAYING this message because it is not working for the majority of mankind?
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So I will return the question to you once again brother, the God's prophets and messengers have been SAYING the God's Word to mankind since "from the time eternal". Should we discontinue spreading, that is SAYING the God's message because its message of PEACE has not yielded , what you desire as, sufficient fruits? Please answer.The Prophets and the messengers were saying the quran not the reading. So recite more and rehearse more and get inspired with quran and SAY invoking Allah and seeking protection from shaitan at the same time.
I wish you would give one clear example one day. Please explain the difference between "quran" and "reading", and give us some examples of both.
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Peace be upon you Brother Fazl,
I asked you to clarify the question and you did not even ask any question in your response, much less clarify anything.I have given the answer straight away to a question which you either you cannot get what is exactly or that you want to elude from answering obviously. In other words see if you could refute this statement Your knowledge cannot reach up tosisdom for knowledge and wisdom are opposite to each otherin their reach. Knowledge is a test for humans while the wisdom is Grace from Allah.
Me
Please give an example of the difficulty of the symbolic explanation. Just one example.
The unstable society for the sea is confusionWhat exactly is confusing about this, please te, me exactly so we can resolve this.
The conceptuality itself is unclear. this we have already dealt with and I have answered elaborately; but most of the points you have not replied that which i never pursued to pressurize you to answer. now that you are bringing it up again, I want to go exclusively on this on aseparate thread. i hope you will comply.
and many more you yourself had admitted the symbolism were not being arrived at; you 're working on them and so on.
If I am working on understanding certain ones, then I have stated so. But in regards to large water representing "non stability" I am done with that one. Is there some error you see with that?
The major error is that the truth is one and the same that it paves way much more clear and broader to attain more clarity with ease than the difficulty you had in understanding the subject of quran before the invention of allegory. But you find the subject difficult to comprehend lately, even to imagine things and you are unable to stick them together. This is against the reading that wisdom of quran makes your way easier through the truth. Further, your mountain/government theory is a nonapplication and stays as a hypothesis. Your inability to make the community to believe and act is causing the failure of the concept. Whereas if you apply god's wisdom, we need not bother the community, yet you will live heavenly life even in this world even as an individual.
Also, you stated in another thread that "kitaab" means peaceful heart. My questin is , how do you arrive at that conclusion. I can show you clearly how I arrive at my conclusions, but you have yet to explain this one.
I have explained in the same thread very clearly. If you have read it already. Ask me where your problem is in understanding; I will be glad to explain you. Please be specific while asking questions.
The symbolism you gave for musa was another one
Please be more specific brother. What is it about the symbolism of Musa that you find to be confused?
How come you forget and ask again as if I have not pointed out at all in the same thread, regarding the particular question you have just asked here. You know pretty well you do not read the post fully, and you do not care to answer all points raised for want of further knowledge to explain; or to escape from being a victim through your own answers.
Then the mountains as stable government cannot fit into one's logic and i can mention more but i feel it is enough at this stage.
Why does it not fit into one's logic? What does it mean to you that Noah's son sought refuge from the flood from some mountain? How do you apply that verse to life?
The application of that verse to life is Nooh's son knows swimming and he believed in his knowledge to swim. But Nooh's wisdom is absolute and far different to the swimming knowledge of his son. His son with his knowledge could not even note the raising levels of water and since the waves have not started yet, he could not foresee due to lack of wisdom and as a believer in knowledge of world standards he was immersed by the sudden wave that intervened between him and Nooh which pulled him to the depth of the water. This is the knowledge vs. wisdom. With his knowledge he imagined his escape on top of the mountain not heeding to the call of his father's wisdom. As a result he hit the botom of the floods.The application is never believe in knowledge that the people around the world believe for thir lives. Allah's wisdom when reaches you like the tsunami, you will despair and meet the disaster, inevitable!
You are not giving any proofs of anything. You are only expressing your FEELINGS.
Feelings if true, it by itself is a proof, if you reflect.
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We must discuss what is evidence. There is a many slip between the cup and the lip.
What do you mean by "cup" and "lip"? Is that some kind of symbolism?Was it your answer to my request?
I see D I guess "quran" is some alien language that only you have "true" knowledge of, is that the case?
This is vain talk!
Broter, it is you who claims the ultimate true knowledge, so please start a thread of instruction that I can follow, you can call it "Lessons from Dr Fazl". I will be awaiting it.
You promised you will never revert back to the same mistake of making sarcastic remarks. Fear Allah! You will never heed or behave, if you don't.
Amazing! You have bracketted quran assuming it to be the same as the reading.
It is AMAZING that you just noticed this when I have done this for a LOOOONG time now. Also please pay attention to the entire phrase "THIS reading".
Even as you are in such a confusion, how is that you are in a sooo jooyous mood! Keep enjoying for a while, until you are serious with the quran.
Slow down, please give me your understanding of the word "quran".
Read in the thread I had started what the Book and what the quran is! the title is Are Quranites the people of the Book I think you have the habit of reading only your own statements but not the replies what others make in response to.
(58 ...and if they came to you, they greeted you with what The God does not greet you with it,
Fazl
We must be mindful when we use Peace here in every post greeting each other and fear Allah for Allah alone can grant us peace.Should I take that as you cannot formulate a response to my question?
LOL! Brother, you're in such a hurry to win over me? I do not have that kind of feeling against you, anyway. Quran is to be dealt with separately. I am with you anywhere anytime to respond to any of your question, provided the topic is separate in any section appropriate to the topic.
Since the GOD'S MESSAGE has been recited from the beginning, do we stop SAYING this message because it is not working for the majority of mankind?
Why should we stop God's message just because the majority reject?
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So I will return the question to you once again brother, the God's prophets and messengers have been SAYING the God's Word to mankind since "from the time eternal". Should we discontinue spreading, that is SAYING the God's message because its message of PEACE has not yielded , what you desire as, sufficient fruits? Please answer.The Prophets and the messengers were saying the quran not the reading. So recite more and rehearse more and get inspired with quran and SAY invoking Allah and seeking protection from shaitan at the same time.
I wish you would give one clear example one day. Please explain the difference between "quran" and "reading", and give us some examples of both.
Let us get back to the thread " Are The Quranites, the People of The Book? "
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Peace be upon you Brother Fazl,
I have given the answer straight away to a question which you either you cannot get what is exactly or that you want to elude from answering obviously. In other words see if you could refute this statement Your knowledge cannot reach up tosisdom for knowledge and wisdom are opposite to each otherin their reach. Knowledge is a test for humans while the wisdom is Grace from Allah.
Again, we are differing with our understanding of the words. In my understanding, no, knowledge and wisdom are not opposites, knowledge brings wisdom. To me, intellect(thinking) is opposite to knowledge(knowing). Thinking is necessary, but here is a point when it should start becoming knowledge, then Wisdom.
Fazl
The unstable society for the sea is confusionMe
What exactly is confusing about this, please te, me exactly so we can resolve this.The conceptuality itself is unclear. this we have already dealt with and I have answered elaborately; but most of the points you have not replied that which i never pursued to pressurize you to answer. now that you are bringing it up again, I want to go exclusively on this on aseparate thread. i hope you will comply.
Yes, I will comply. I will comply to most things because I am seeking Wisdom. Will you start the thread or should I?
The major error is that the truth is one and the same that it paves way much more clear and broader to attain more clarity with ease than the difficulty you had in understanding the subject of quran before the invention of allegory. But you find the subject difficult to comprehend lately, even to imagine things and you are unable to stick them together. This is against the reading that wisdom of quran makes your way easier through the truth. Further, your mountain/government theory is a nonapplication and stays as a hypothesis. Your inability to make the community to believe and act is causing the failure of the concept. Whereas if you apply god's wisdom, we need not bother the community, yet you will live heavenly life even in this world even as an individual
.What community am I bothering? Did the messengers all have success in getting thier communities to believe and act? The only duty of the messenger is to deliver the CLEAR message. I am only trying to make this message clear to the best of my ability and to help spread the message of truth. I am not to control the affairs of mankind. I Understand very well that I have to protect my own "heaven" which is the PEACE that nothing should be able to shake. I am getting there, unless the God wills.
Me
Please be more specific brother. What is it about the symbolism of Musa that you find to be confused?How come you forget and ask again as if I have not pointed out at all in the same thread, regarding the particular question you have just asked here. You know pretty well you do not read the post fully, and you do not care to answer all points raised for want of further knowledge to explain; or to escape from being a victim through your own answers.
Brother, I normally break each post down into fragments and answer section by section. I am not fearing being wrong, and I have no problem with accpeting a better understanding which is well documented, but I have yet to hear one in relation to the symbolism of this reading. Further, just as you have stated above that you answered the questions about "peaceful heart" , I have also answered any question about Musa. So just as above you asked me to re ask any question about "peaceful heart", I am doing the VERY SAME.
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Then the mountains as stable government cannot fit into one's logic and i can mention more but i feel it is enough at this stage.Why does it not fit into one's logic? What does it mean to you that Noah's son sought refuge from the flood from some mountain? How do you apply that verse to life?
The application of that verse to life is Nooh's son knows swimming and he believed in his knowledge to swim. But Nooh's wisdom is absolute and far different to the swimming knowledge of his son. His son with his knowledge could not even note the raising levels of water and since the waves have not started yet, he could not foresee due to lack of wisdom and as a believer in knowledge of world standards he was immersed by the sudden wave that intervened between him and Nooh which pulled him to the depth of the water. This is the knowledge vs. wisdom. With his knowledge he imagined his escape on top of the mountain not heeding to the call of his father's wisdom. As a result he hit the botom of the floods.The application is never believe in knowledge that the people around the world believe for thir lives. Allah's wisdom when reaches you like the tsunami, you will despair and meet the disaster, inevitable!
But your understanding is not consistent with ALL of the verses that mention mountains. Mountains are very important in this reading(quran). Our struggle is symbolized as climbing a mountain. The God says he raised the mountain above us all and our job is to climb the path that is steep. When we get to the top of this governing sytem, we can see the WHOLE of it. Abraham was shown how the dead are revived by placing BIRDS on the tops of mountains (spiritual beings at the piont where they can see the WHOLE) and when they are called they come quickly. Seeing the WHOLE is how we obtain wisdom from the God. When things come together, it brings WISDOM and you say "Ohhhhh, thats it"!
If anyone has the US one dollar bill, look at the top of the pyramid and see the EYE at the top. The EYE that sees all, the whole, is at the top. These are very old symbolisms, brother.
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Amazing! You have bracketted quran assuming it to be the same as the reading.It is AMAZING that you just noticed this when I have done this for a LOOOONG time now. Also please pay attention to the entire phrase "THIS reading".
Even as you are in such a confusion, how is that you are in a sooo jooyous mood! Keep enjoying for a while, until you are serious with the quran.
Peace brings joy/hapinness. But it is not laughter because there is much work to be done. What makes you say I am confused? I am clearly explaining my position. Above you said I was being sarcastic, I deleted it because you were right so I moved past that, but the next statement from you is an insult, how is that better?
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Slow down, please give me your understanding of the word "quran".Read in the thread I had started what the Book and what the quran is! the title is Are Quranites the people of the Book I think you have the habit of reading only your own statements but not the replies what others make in response to.
You will have to excuse me for not memorizing your posts. Is it too much trouble to put it here in the center of the debate? I have had to answer the same questions from you more than once.
Since the GOD'S MESSAGE has been recited from the beginning, do we stop SAYING this message because it is not working for the majority of mankind?
Why should we stop God's message just because the majority reject?
Exactly my point, so why do we stop saying "Peace be upon you" just because most reject? Your point was since saying "peace be upon you" does not seem to work that it is wrong. By that same understanding, you should also want to stop the God's message.
So I will return the question to you once again brother, the God's prophets and messengers have been SAYING the God's Word to mankind since "from the time eternal". Should we discontinue spreading, that is SAYING the God's message because its message of PEACE has not yielded , what you desire as, sufficient fruits? Please answer.
The Prophets and the messengers were saying the quran not the reading. So recite more and rehearse more and get inspired with quran and SAY invoking Allah and seeking protection from shaitan at the same time.
Okay, lets try this again, the prophets and messengers have been saying the "quran" since the beginning. Should we stop saying the "quran" if it has not "worked' all this time? The same way you are saying we should not say "peace be upon you" because it does not seem to work according to you?
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Peace be upon you Brother Fazl,
Again, we are differing with our understanding of the words. In my understanding, no, knowledge and wisdom are not opposites, knowledge brings wisdom. To me, intellect(thinking) is opposite to knowledge(knowing). Thinking is necessary, but here is a point when it should start becoming knowledge, then Wisdom."Intellect" is the inherent capacity to ponder that imbibes the universal secrets in all its essence. But knowledge is eesentially a test for us, to induce and to put to full use the intellectual capacity, untainted with knowledge, which alone shall make one learn how low the subject called knowledge is.
Fazl
The unstable society for the sea is confusionMe
What exactly is confusing about this, please te, me exactly so we can resolve this.The conceptuality itself is unclear. this we have already dealt with and I have answered elaborately; but most of the points you have not replied that which i never pursued to pressurize you to answer. now that you are bringing it up again, I want to go exclusively on this on aseparate thread. i hope you will comply.
Yes, I will comply. I will comply to most things because I am seeking Wisdom. Will you start the thread or should I?
Please start. Glad to give full participation. May Allah Save Us from Shaitan. Alhamdulillah.
What community am I bothering? Did the messengers all have success in getting thier communities to believe and act? The only duty of the messenger is to deliver the CLEAR message. I am only trying to make this message clear to the best of my ability and to help spread the message of truth. I am not to control the affairs of mankind. I Understand very well that I have to protect my own "heaven" which is the PEACE that nothing should be able to shake. I am getting there, unless the God wills.
Your way of explaining will reach the socalled educated, scientific soicety. But an uneducated personal will not. The vast majority of the human race will be left behind. But quran is simple if only we do not apply the modern education which is full of pride and money. Thus, the explanation is not befitting to quran, since the essence of quran is withdrawn from the poorer, uneducated section.
But your understanding is not consistent with ALL of the verses that mention mountains
.It will be in consistent with every verse and its context. Because my understanding is based on the pondering, meaning applied reality.
Mountains are very important in this reading(quran). Our struggle is symbolized as climbing a mountain. The God says he raised the mountain above us all and our job is to climb the path that is steep.
Allah says your path is made easy for you, if you follow Him; which is diametrically opposite to your view.
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And strive in His cause as ye ought to strive. He has chosen you, and has imposed no difficulties on you in this life.When we get to the top of this governing sytem, we can see the WHOLE of it. Abraham was shown how the dead are revived by placing BIRDS on the tops of mountains (spiritual beings at the piont where they can see the WHOLE) and when they are called they come quickly. Seeing the WHOLE is how we obtain wisdom from the God. When things come together, it brings WISDOM and you say "Ohhhhh, thats it"! D
As an ordinary man Ibrahim, learned direct from Allah how He creates, because He believed He would teach His intelect, sothat his heart saw the truth, through the physical eyes which event set His heart peaceful that Allah sure is "the creator". This is the way we follow and see to believe the unseen only with His Help. No allegory could be attached to this grand learning, clear as crystal.
Peace brings joy/hapinness. But it is not laughter because there is much work to be done. What makes you say I am confused? I am clearly explaining my position. Above you said I was being sarcastic, I deleted it because you were right so I moved past that, but the next statement from you is an insult, how is that better?
It is only tit far tat which is allowed in the reading.
You will have to excuse me for not memorizing your posts. Is it too much trouble to put it here in the center of the debate? I have had to answer the same questions from you more than once.
Yes, you have to.
Exactly my point, so why do we stop saying "Peace be upon you" just because most reject? Your point was since saying "peace be upon you" does not seem to work that it is wrong. By that same understanding, you should also want to stop the God's message.
I maintain, only Allah can give you peace, So start in the name of Allah before wishing peace. You know you have no peace at hand for yourself.
Okay, lets try this again, the prophets and messengers have been saying the "quran" since the beginning. Should we stop saying the "quran" if it has not "worked' all this time? The same way you are saying we should not say "peace be upon you" because it does not seem to work according to you?
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Peace be upon you Brother Fazl,
"Intellect" is the inherent capacity to ponder that imbibes the universal secrets in all its essence. But knowledge is eesentially a test for us, to induce and to put to full use the intellectual capacity, untainted with knowledge, which alone shall make one learn how low the subject called knowledge is.
I respectfully disagree, I see the test as being one who THINKS they KNOW, so they say they have knowledge, but they have only guessed. Again, until you KNOW something, it is not KNOWledge.
Yes, I will comply. I will comply to most things because I am seeking Wisdom. Will you start the thread or should I?
Please start. Glad to give full participation. May Allah Save Us from Shaitan. Alhamdulillah.
I will start the thread on general questions section as soon as I am done responding.
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What community am I bothering? Did the messengers all have success in getting thier communities to believe and act? The only duty of the messenger is to deliver the CLEAR message. I am only trying to make this message clear to the best of my ability and to help spread the message of truth. I am not to control the affairs of mankind. I Understand very well that I have to protect my own "heaven" which is the PEACE that nothing should be able to shake. I am getting there, unless the God wills.Your way of explaining will reach the socalled educated, scientific soicety. But an uneducated personal will not. The vast majority of the human race will be left behind.
I do not lock myself into one "personality". I talk to differnet people in different ways. The language I use with my friends is not exactly the same way I talk on this forum, although I keep the same morals. The messenger speaks in the language of the people.
But quran is simple if only we do not apply the modern education which is full of pride and money. Thus, the explanation is not befitting to quran, since the essence of quran is withdrawn from the poorer, uneducated section.
So give an example of both so I can clearly see the difference you are trying to show me.
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Mountains are very important in this reading(quran). Our struggle is symbolized as climbing a mountain. The God says he raised the mountain above us all and our job is to climb the path that is steep.Allah says your path is made easy for you, if you follow Him; which is diametrically opposite to your view.
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And strive in His cause as ye ought to strive. He has chosen you, and has imposed no difficulties on you in this life.How is this OPPOSITE to what I stated? further, it is straight from this reading(quran).
(9010-1 (yusuf ali) And shown him the two highways? But he hath made no haste on the path that is steep. And what will explain to thee the path that is steep? (It is freeing the bondman; Or the giving of food in a day of privation To the orphan with claims of relationship, Or to the indigent (down) in the dust. Then will he be of those who believe, and enjoin patience, (constancy, and self-restraint), and enjoin deeds of kindness and compassion. Such are the Companions of the Right Hand.
I did not say it was a difficult path, only a steep path.
It is man who makes it difficult for himself. (I cannot recall the verse that speaks of the climb beig made difficult)
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When we get to the top of this governing sytem, we can see the WHOLE of it. Abraham was shown how the dead are revived by placing BIRDS on the tops of mountains (spiritual beings at the piont where they can see the WHOLE) and when they are called they come quickly. Seeing the WHOLE is how we obtain wisdom from the God. When things come together, it brings WISDOM and you say "Ohhhhh, thats it"!As an ordinary man Ibrahim, learned direct from Allah how He creates, because He believed He would teach His intelect, sothat his heart saw the truth, through the physical eyes which event set His heart peaceful that Allah sure is "the creator". This is the way we follow and see to believe the unseen only with His Help. No allegory could be attached to this grand learning, clear as crystal.
The God does noy shy from similitudes, from the tiny mosquito to that which is above it.
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Exactly my point, so why do we stop saying "Peace be upon you" just because most reject? Your point was since saying "peace be upon you" does not seem to work that it is wrong. By that same understanding, you should also want to stop the God's message.I maintain, only Allah can give you peace, So start in the name of Allah before wishing peace. You know you have no peace at hand for yourself.
Let me ask you, will the God grant peace to those you greet with "may Allah grant you peace"?
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Peace be upon you Brother Fazl,
I will start the thread on general questions section as soon as I am done responding.I will be responding there.
I do not lock myself into one "personality". I talk to differnet people in different ways. The language I use with my friends is not exactly the same way I talk on this forum, although I keep the same morals. The messenger speaks in the language of the people.
May Allah Bless
So give an example of both so I can clearly see the difference you are trying to show me.
I appreciate if one subject is discussed at a time unlike quoting and countering quoting like this.
It is man who makes it difficult for himself. (I cannot recall the verse that speaks of the climb beig made difficult)
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Those whom Allah willeth to guide,- He openeth their breast to Islam; those whom He willeth to leave straying,- He maketh their breast close and constricted, as if they had to climb up to the skies thus doth Allah the penalty on those who refuse to believe.The God does noy shy from similitudes, from the tiny mosquito to that which is above it.
Allah's similitude is very practical and existing already. It is none other than a reminder that we forgot.
Let me ask you, will the God grant peace to those you greet with "may Allah grant you peace"?
I do not know. It is with God. But I am saying in the manner I am asked to, that is it!
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Peace be upon you,
Since you are trying to narrow down the responses, something I agree with, I will address two points from your last post
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It is man who makes it difficult for himself. (I cannot recall the verse that speaks of the climb beig made difficult)006.125
Those whom Allah willeth to guide,- He openeth their breast to Islam; those whom He willeth to leave straying,- He maketh their breast close and constricted, as if they had to climb up to the skies thus doth Allah the penalty on those who refuse to believe.This was not the verse I was referring to, I will try to find it.
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Let me ask you, will the God grant peace to those you greet with "may Allah grant you peace"?I do not know. It is with God. But I am saying in the manner I am asked to, that is it!
Where were you told this manner of greeting? And why are you inconsistent with it?