The Smoke - Nuclear War
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Peace,
if disasters are signals, there has been one much worse than 11-9 2/3 december 1984, Bhopal, 7,000 died (+ 15,000 died over the last 20 years due to the exposure to the toxins) and the gas could be seen, it looked like a cloud, similar to smoke maybe.
http//web.amnesty.org/pages/ec-bhopal-engIf the recorded History is right, wars, genocides, famine, lewdness, greed, nepotism, etc. have been always present among humans of all eras. Today we are aware of them at the same time they are happening because of the easy communication. Is is really worse today? Sure it is higher, but the population is higher too, maybe it is equivalent.
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Peace idolfree1,
Are we going bakwards to te 19 "miracle" again?
Why not call it warning? Actually I find it very wise from brother Layth, that he could finally concentrate about what we call "a core system"
Surely, the message of God is full of spirituality, but also in a large number of portions of the message we can find warnings from physical destruction be it from natural events we call disasters or from warfare.
in almost every "story" of the Quran where a message is being sent to a community and after a predetermined time the trigger of destruction is almost always triggered, maybe we can see the story of yunus as an exception.
Again a core means we don't go into details of an implementation because always there are mistakes in details. The core is what counts espcecially when it concerns us humans. Because simply we humans always do mistakes in the details of everything , no system can be built from us perfectly , else no development would be needed in life. Only God can provide errorfree cores and details.
As I see it as Layth, there has been a warning issued, that people are not believing in God, the consequences are not only spiritual but also physical painful. I hope that you can notice this arround you, because we are not only spiritual birds who fly around, but also physical creatures surrendering to the physical law created from Almighty God
If "elephants" means republicans, what were the people 1400 years ago to understand by these verses?
Do you want to say, that we can not have a different dynamic understanding to the Quran and we must understand everything as people understood it 14 centuries ago? Do we live like them?
Should I give up understanding the things arround me because I have to share my understanding with dead people who passed many centuries ago?
Should I really be concerned about how people lived 14 centuries ago understood the Quran? Then it is nothing dynamic about it if i would understand every detail like them . I think the common understanding between me and them about God is his Oneness, etc.. that every person is responsible about his deeds, etc. But we differ in taking the Quran as a guide in the circumstances surrounding us. For them, they had to ask the Quran for a guide through their time, environment and institutions, etc... to us we ask the God to show us from the Quran the way arround OUR time and environment.
He asked What about the first Generations, Moses?
He replied The knowledge about them is with God, my Lord neither strays nor forgetspeace and best regards,
sabo -
Saludos Elena,
if disasters are signals, there has been one much worse than 11-9 2/3 december 1984, Bhopal, 7,000 died (+ 15,000 died over the last 20 years due to the exposure to the toxins) and the gas could be seen, it looked like a cloud, similar to smoke maybe.
http//web.amnesty.org/pages/ec-bhopal-engIf the recorded History is right, wars, genocides, famine, lewdness, greed, nepotism, etc. have been always present among humans of all eras. Today we are aware of them at the same time they are happening because of the easy communication. Is is really worse today? Sure it is higher, but the population is higher too, maybe it is equivalent.
Actually as u said, because of the easy communication!
The easy communication made the world more global and more exposed to general consequences to all soceities. Since in the past soceities were not forming such a global union, the consequences of their deeds were limited to them, now the world is something like 1 global nation with many different languages and backgrounds in many cases also conflicting.
Best regards,
sabo -
Peace Layth,
Thanks for your comments. As I now understand, keeping the 2 verses in the Quran does not defy the code 19 discovered by Khalifa.
Still, I have some problems with your argument• Dr. Khalifa was allowed by God to discover the miracle of ?code 19? contained within the Quran, and which lay undiscovered for 1,400 years (7431);
• According to God, only sincere believers will be given access to the Quran?s secrets, therefore making Dr. Khalifa a sincere believer (1745-46);
• As God knows the past and present (2255) He knew in advance that Dr. Khalifa would declare himself to be God?s messenger;
• Since Dr. Khalifa was allowed access to the Quran?s secret, and since God knows the future, then it is further proof that God has approved Dr. Khalifa?s mission and that the claim is genuine since he would not have been allowed access to the Quran?s miracle to begin with had he been otherwise (6944-47).
My main qualm is in the first argument that "only a sincere bliever will be given access to the Quran's secret", which is based on .
First, I do not see those verse as being applicable. They do not differentiat between SINCERE BELIVER and NON-SINCERE BELIEVER. Instead, the verse differentiates "between you and those who do not believe in the Hereafter ". Thus, Khalifa cannot be qualified as a SINCERE BELIEVER based on this verse. Instead he should be qualified as among THOSE WHO BELIEVE IN THE HEREAFTER.Thus, I do not see any justification for the claim that only a sincere believer can access the secrets of the Quran. For example, there were mysterious verses regarding embryological development (ex ). Keith L. Moore, a prominent anatomist and embryologist discovered the meaning of these verses. He was not a Muslim when he made his discovery, and he did not convert afterwards. Basically, I am suggesting it is possible for a non SINCERE BELIEVER to unlock previosly mysterious veres.
http//www.jamiat.org.za/isinfo/mquran.htmlAnother problem with the SINCERE BELIEVER argument is that a sincere believer would not lie. This was the next part of Khalifa's argument. Also, I believe a neccassary criterion for a sincere believer is to promote true revelation. Khalifa was not promoting Quran. He was promoting a different book. How can a SINCERE BELIEVER push away people from the true revelation and promote his own different revelation (i.e., Khalifa's Quran whose justification you deemed "bogus").
What put this issue to rest for me was Rahsad's own statement that 'he is not to be followed' and that only God's book should be followed
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Rashad provided proof in the form of the Quran's code, preached the core message of God Alone clearly and consisly, and did not ask for a wage for what he did (3621)...I would say that pretty much qualifies his claim.
Yes, a criterion for a messenger is to promote adherence to "only God's book", "he is not to be followed", and "not ask for a wage". But, the first criterion, IMO, is being violated. Khalifa is not promoting God's book, he is promoting his own book.I recall you said
It is not about the issue of messengers lying or making mistakes (Mohammed stated that God had forbidden something when in-fact God has made it lawful 661)...It is about the core message of God Alone and whether the messengers are telling you follow the path of God or whether they are telling you to follow them...
Yes, a messenger need not be perfect/infallible. 661 proves that a messenger can even violate an order of God (16116). However, creating a new copy of revelation, and discarding God's revelation (based on a "bogus" claim) does not qualify as a MISTAKE or LIE. It is a serous error that no true messenger could make. We are to follow God's revelation, not the revelation promoted by Khalifa. Khalifa has rejected God's revelation. The Quran asks a very important rhetorical question to the REJECTORS OF GOD'S REVELATION (7749-50).
Woe on that day to the rejectors.
Which Hadith, other than this, do they uphold?-Non-rejectors uphold/believe God's Hadith (Quran)
-Hadithists uphold/believe the Hadith of Muhammd along with God's Hadith.
-Khalifa upholds/believes his version of revelation and rejects God's Hadith.-Ams
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I don't agree witht that article. Only God knows future.
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This is an interesting argument. Though I am hesitant to agree with the prophetic conclusion in the article, I agree with the main point, the connection between 9/11 and ensuing events with Rashad Khalifa who was the victim of al-Qaida's first terrorist act in the US. When I read it carefully, I will write more on this article, inshallah.
As for those who are critical of Rashad Khalifa's honesty or mission, I wish they were able to study the facts with more objectivity. Though I had numerous discussions and arguments with Rashad during the one year I spent with him 7 days a week in Masjid Tucson, I found him a brave and sincere believer in God and His word. His life and struggle is evidence for that. Rashad sent mails to many prominent figures in America and all he received was dead silence and US granting Saudi wish for his assasination.
I say this since I personally KNOW that FBI knew the assasination plans days before his assassination and did nothing before and afterwards!
Please check the following links and references
http//www.yuksel.org/e/law/terror.htm
http//www.yuksel.org/e/law/benladen.htm
http//www.ict.org.il/documents/documentdet.cfm?docid=47
http//www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/binladen/upclose/elhage.htmlSome of news stories about Rashad Khalifa and his assasinations were published or broadcasted by
Chris Limberis, Terrorists in Tiny Town, Tucson Weekly, September 20, 2001, pp. 4-8.
Mark Hosenball, Another Holy War Waged on American Soil, Newsweek, February 28, 1994, pp. 30-31.
Tim Vanderpool, The No. 19 Murder, Tucson Weekly, January 19, 1994, cover story.
Tucson Mosque slaying may be linked to sect, The Arizona Daily Star, October 12, 1992, first page.
Ben Ladin's first Terrorist Work in the US by CBS National News, Dan Rather, 10/26/2001 at 530 PM. Eye On America.
Peace,
Edip Yuksel
19.org
yuksel.org -
Peace Lyath,
interesting article, although I have a question how did you come up with a prophecy of nuclear war from the followin ayats.
?Therefore, watch for the day when the sky will bring a visible smoke. It will envelop the people ?This is a painful retribution! Our Lord, remove the retribution from us; we are believers.? How is it that now they remember, while a clarifying messenger had come to them? But they turned away from him and said ?Clearly educated, but crazy!?? (Quran 4410-14)
Can't it be a smoke that come out from a natural disasters something like a asteroid or meteor hitting the earth.
Regards
Kashif -
Slightly off topic, but wasnt Rashad Khalifa arrested for molesting kids in Arizona? I'm sure I read this somewhere and saw official looking police documents.
Dubious guy anyway, whether he kickstarted a Quran only movement or not, taking verses out of the Quran isnt...cool.
Slightly back on topic again, but I'm sure God or the messenger says that nobody but God knows about the Hour. I can, however, agree with the continual destruction of societies that transgress God's limits, its inevitable really, every empire falls, because God wills it.
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There has always been corruption, lewndess, and general immorality in strong nations throughout history. Look at the Romans, they lasted a long time even though their society and modern western society were very similar in certain respects.
The smoke could be a natural disaster or a man made disaster. like bitnik said, it could be something like an asteroid colliding with Earth.
Once again I have to point out that you saying America = Evil = End is really silly.
"wars, decadence, selfishness, pornography, exploitation, materialism, lewdness, homosexuality, crimes, fraud, deceit, etc. have become the norm rather than the exception."
Hmmm lets see Rome waged a lot of war, there was decadence, selfishness, brothels, exploitation, materialism, lewdness, homosexuality, fraud, deciet. Yet Rome didn't go up in a big ball of smoke. Same could be said about other powerful empires/nations.
Rome had real messengers and prophets such as Jesus, John, others probably. Yet no big boom.
Using some strange, superstitious, number play on words and events is no way to prove anything. People have been predicting the end of the world for thousands of years. The truth is no one knows and its pointless trying to figure it out.
Scaring people into thinking WW3 is coming based off of such illogical reasoning makes this whole site and movement look like a cult. Frankly, this is the worst article on free-minds.org.
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Peace all,
Kashif,
interesting article, although I have a question how did you come up with a prophecy of nuclear war from the followin ayats.
?Therefore, watch for the day when the sky will bring a visible smoke. It will envelop the people ?This is a painful retribution! Our Lord, remove the retribution from us; we are believers.? How is it that now they remember, while a clarifying messenger had come to them? But they turned away from him and said ?Clearly educated, but crazy!?? (Quran 4410-14)
Can't it be a smoke that come out from a natural disasters something like a asteroid or meteor hitting the earth.
It could be the items you mentioned...I went for the nuclear option since a) this is a weapon which exists in massive quantities and had yet to be used on a lrge scale, b) the prophecy speaks on the pain/suffering being 'prelonged'...Though this would fit with the dust of an asteroid covering the atmosphere for many weeks and killing off vegitation/animals, I found it closer to the nuclear fallout and radiation sickness that would follow.
Beatnik,
Slightly back on topic again, but I'm sure God or the messenger says that nobody but God knows about the Hour. I can, however, agree with the continual destruction of societies that transgress God's limits, its inevitable really, every empire falls, because God wills it.
This prophecy is not about the 'hour'...It is about a mass scale event from which there will be survivors....Also, this information would not have been possible to tie together prior to the 2004 election since only then could we link the 44th President with the 19 year cycle (had Kerry won then he would be President # 44 and the whole link dissapears).
Riz,
There has always been corruption, lewndess, and general immorality in strong nations throughout history. Look at the Romans, they lasted a long time even though their society and modern western society were very similar in certain respects.
Only God has their detailed history which makes it impossible to state that they had 'deserved' the sudden retribution or not.
Had you given the example of Pompeii which was suddenly destroyed with its inhabitants, then I could have agreed that particular city may have been wicked enough to deserve the retribution.
The smoke could be a natural disaster or a man made disaster. like bitnik said, it could be something like an asteroid colliding with Earth.
Indeed it could be...That is why a prophecy remains a prophecy until it comes to pass and then we will know for sure.
Once again I have to point out that you saying America = Evil = End is really silly.
"wars, decadence, selfishness, pornography, exploitation, materialism, lewdness, homosexuality, crimes, fraud, deceit, etc. have become the norm rather than the exception."
Do you say this from research and proof or simply a 'gut feeling' that they are a nice people and a nice country?
I have provided a link to one book which states just some of the dates and facts...Did you read that book? Do you know how many people were murdered in Veitnam? Cambodia? Panama? Elsalvador? Somalia? Iraq? Philippines? Korea? etc.
In-fact, the financial system alone that is built on fiat notes and interest and which is exported to the word is by itself a cause for war and destruction (2275-279)...Let alone all the other issues.
Hmmm lets see Rome waged a lot of war, there was decadence, selfishness, brothels, exploitation, materialism, lewdness, homosexuality, fraud, deciet. Yet Rome didn't go up in a big ball of smoke. Same could be said about other powerful empires/nations.
Again you speak of a period where only God could knows the details...I again point to Pompeii as a more relevant example that could be looked at and studied.
Also, you seem to forget that the weapons of antiquity could possibly have finished off tens of thousands of people...While the weapons of our age have already taken tens of millions of lives within the span of a few years in fighting (WWI claimed 10 million, WWII 50 million).
Rome had real messengers and prophets such as Jesus, John, others probably. Yet no big boom.
Lets stick to what we know for sure...Lot's village went in one big 'boom'...so did many others mentioned in the Quran...God knows best when and how to take care of the evildoers.
Using some strange, superstitious, number play on words and events is no way to prove anything. People have been predicting the end of the world for thousands of years. The truth is no one knows and its pointless trying to figure it out.
First of all, this is not the end of the world.
Secondly...The fact that we are headed for a nuclear war is a simple logical deduction that any normal person can make based on the availability of the technology, the stockpiling of weapons, and the increase in tension worldwide with a trend that will continue...
Had I claimed that a red dragon would come from the sky and blow hot air which will envelop the people, then I would agree with your statemnt...But that the dotted line is simply filled out for the most obvious of facts should not even cause a person to blink.
Scaring people into thinking WW3 is coming based off of such illogical reasoning makes this whole site and movement look like a cult. Frankly, this is the worst article on free-minds.org.
It is the worst article because you seem to be in denial to much that is very obvious...
I recomend you ignore the article (which you will obviously do) and do some research on the US to see if what was written about it being the most evil nation by its actions is true or not...
Has it deserved the retribution?
I certainly believe it has.
Layth
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Hmm, 4 things (my opinion only)
- Context. This sura is mostly about the Hour; Judgement Day, its foreshadowing of the inevitable in order to make people aware of how fleeting this life is. I believe each sura has a theme, and its not wise to just concentrate on verses by themselves, take the sura as a whole. The theme is the smoke of the Hour. An event noone can foresee. This sura is a reminder to not take the world for granted.
'And We have not created the heavens and the earth, and everything between them, for mere play.'
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Isnt verse 10 addressed to the messenger who delivered the Quran? Isnt the word 'thou' used? Basically God telling the messenger (as well as the readers) what the Hour will look like. Verse 15 is God explaining how whenever He leaves people alone again, they revert back to disbelief. The example of Pharaoh, Moses and Children of Israel is the example used a couple verses later. After they were saved from terror, they forgot the message again and returned to disbelief.
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Isnt the messenger, the seal of the messengers? Arent we supposed to ignore anyone who claims they're a messenger after him, and to rely on the book instead? I honestly cannot take seriously a man who claims he's a messenger from God, simply because the Quran was delivered as the final word that would be guarded for future generations. There is alot of controversy about Rashad, and most of it is negative for a reason. He has distorted alot of things, this page has many links disproving alot of 'code 19'ers' beliefs
http//64.70.134.35/code_19_deceit.htm
- Each generation of people try to prophecise via verses from the Quran. I think this sura has also been attributed to the first Gulf War and people said back then something massive would occur. I dont think the Quran is some kind of device to tell the future, its demeaning to the message. We're supposed to ground ourselves in the present, not try to tell the future. Only God knows the future, how could we be so arrogant as to presume we can also tell whats about to occur? Why would God give us clues at all? Really obscure ones at that. Isnt one of (if not THE) points of life to not know the future, to make choices in the present and be judged for them? I personally believe that the more knowledge we accumulate, the more of the Quran we understand and the closer to God we can get, but I dont believe that there are specific clues to major world events in the book.
I agree with the article's comments on how to recognize when a society is about to fall, because God gives many examples such as Thamud, etc. But to stick a specific date is just really taking the mick. Just my opinion though.
I mean, I also agree the USA has caused the most damage to this planet in its relatively short history, its quite amazing just how much misery and suffering by the hands of the US government has been caused, and its only inevitable that their actions will hit them back in the form of alot of bad karma. 9/11 was the biggest example obviously, and the actions in Afghanistan and Iraq only serve to create more terrorists, people who have lost everything, who have nothing but hatred for the USA and will do anything, no matter how horrible to get their own back.
But you know, as God says, 'confront evil with good'. Violence begets violence, an endless cycle.
Also, nukes are used as deterrents, not weapons during war. There are more practical ways to beat the enemy, I'm sure governments have already concocted chemical agents that can kill only certain races, thus leaving the environment safe to occupy afterwards.
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Slightly off topic, but wasnt Rashad Khalifa arrested for molesting kids in Arizona? I'm sure I read this somewhere and saw official looking police documents.
Dear beatnik
Rashad was a founding member of a national American Muslim organization (I am away from my records, but I remember it to be ISNA) and he was the chief editor of a Sunni Journal where major Muslim scholars were writers. When Rashad moved to Tucson to work for the University of Arizona as a chemist, he founded Islamic Center of Tucson with some others. However, when he started questioning hadith and sunnah, especially rejecting the sharia law of "Rajm" (stonning to death) for married adulterers he was excommunicated. (Ironically, RAJM does not mean stoning to death, but excoummunication. For instance, Satan was excommunicated by God.)
After he was excommunicated, Rashad founded Masjid Tucson in early 1980's. He became the target of attack and hatred of the local Sunni group. To defame him they fabricated many accusations, including the abovementioned one. But, since they could not provide evidence for the accusation, it remained just another accuastion. The court dismissed the case. Later, they also accused him of being Bahai or with many other false labels.
Peace,
EdipDubious guy anyway, whether he kickstarted a Quran only movement or not, taking verses out of the Quran isnt...cool.
If you rely on the rumors and accusations of his enemies Moses, Jesus, Muhammad and many other messengers were "dubious guy(s) anyway" too!
Slightly back on topic again, but I'm sure God or the messenger says that nobody but God knows about the Hour. I can, however, agree with the continual destruction of societies that transgress God's limits, its inevitable really, every empire falls, because God wills it.
Only God can be the source of such a knowledge and if God unveils the time through the Quran, then we might know that. The Quran contains numerous bits of information about future, including after death, and also contains some prophecies.
Whether Rashad was justified in his interpretation of the Quranic verses regarding the timing of Saat (Moment) is a legitimate issue to be discussed.
Peace,
Edip -
Dear beatnik
Rashad was a founding member of a national American Muslim organization (I am away from my records, but I remember it to be ISNA) and he was the chief editor of a Sunni Journal where major Muslim scholars were writers. When Rashad moved to Tucson to work for the University of Arizona as a chemist, he founded Islamic Center of Tucson with some others. However, when he started questioning hadith and sunnah, especially rejecting the sharia law of "Rajm" (stonning to death) for married adulterers he was excommunicated. (Ironically, RAJM does not mean stoning to death, but excoummunication. For instance, Satan was excommunicated by God.)
After he was excommunicated, Rashad founded Masjid Tucson in early 1980's. He became the target of attack and hatred of the local Sunni group. To defame him they fabricated many accusations, including the abovementioned one. But, since they could not provide evidence for the accusation, it remained just another accuastion. The court dismissed the case. Later, they also accused him of being Bahai or with many other false labels.
Peace,
EdipHmm, I see. There is only so much information out there, the majority negative, though the whole court thing was kind of over the top, but then again, I dont have all the information at my disposal so I have to come to some sort of view point, which will be subject to change upon new information. I STILL cant be sure if the allegations were true or not, and probably I'll never know, its either your word, or reports such as this
http//www.geocities.com/ocp274/rk.htm
Aura readings? Probable cause? Like I said, its all troubling and doesnt reflect well.
If you rely on the rumors and accusations of his enemies Moses, Jesus, Muhammad and many other messengers were "dubious guy(s) anyway" too!
Thats a good point, but not only do I form my initial opinion by rumours or reports, but by actions, and I cant really accept him removing verses or claiming he is a chosen one, etc.
Only God can be the source of such a knowledge and if God unveils the time through the Quran, then we might know that. The Quran contains numerous bits of information about future, including after death, and also contains some prophecies.
But why should we know about future events such as wars? For what purpose? Simply to prepare? To warn people? I dont see the point. If people are on the straight path, its their choice and also God's will, its not up to us to go around convincing people about these kinds of things. I'm worried by this preoccupation with foretelling the future with the Quran, I dont think its recommended in the Quran either. It just strikes me as arrogant, prideful, and dangerous behaviour. Look at the Jehovas Witness group, every decade they keep saying its the end of the world, the whole world thinks them a joke. We can never know such things, WW3, whatever, we cause these events to happen with our actions, the consequences of free will, we're not meant to know the future, we create it. We have the power to prevent WW3, we shouldnt just sit on our butts and accept such a scenario! The only thing we cant prevent is Judgement Day which can strike at any time, and God says we shouldnt be so willing in rushing it.
Every generation believes verses from the Quran are saying something about their time, and every generation convinces themselves that some kind of war or massive conflict will take place. This generation is no different, and it will continue in the future. I believe the Quran IS to be read as if its speaking to your generation, but not to be read as if its a prophecy for war. The book is about peace.
Whether Rashad was justified in his interpretation of the Quranic verses regarding the timing of Saat (Moment) is a legitimate issue to be discussed.
Peace,
EdipI can appreciate his efforts to break free of tradition, that is one thing I can say. I've been learning this past year about tradition, and what God says about it, its very hard and there are alot of lessons to be learnt on this issue, from the Quran and also from Rashid too.
Peace
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Peace brother Beatnik, all,
But why should we know about future events such as wars? For what purpose? Simply to prepare? To warn people? I dont see the point. If people are on the straight path, its their choice and also God's will,
Very well said and I totally agree.
its not up to us to go around convincing people about these kinds of things.
Our only purpose is to serve The God, The Truth. So we are to promote the truth. The message is the truth.
I'm worried by this preoccupation with foretelling the future with the Quran, I dont think its recommended in the Quran either. It just strikes me as arrogant, prideful, and dangerous behaviour. Look at the Jehovas Witness group, every decade they keep saying its the end of the world, the whole world thinks them a joke. We can never know such things, WW3, whatever, we cause these events to happen with our actions, the consequences of free will, we're not meant to know the future, we create it.
We don't "create" the future, we only select from courses of action leading to the futures already created by The God.
It is not our purpose in life to know the exact future. The fact that we are not able to know the exact future indicates that this is part of the deliberate constraints placed on us by the Creator. The insurmountable nature of this constraint indicates to me that it is part of a test. This test is designed to see what choices we will make without knowing the exact outcome in advance.
We have the power to prevent WW3, we shouldnt just sit on our butts and accept such a scenario! The only thing we cant prevent is Judgement Day which can strike at any time, and God says we shouldnt be so willing in rushing it.
Every generation believes verses from the Quran are saying something about their time, and every generation convinces themselves that some kind of war or massive conflict will take place. This generation is no different, and it will continue in the future. I believe the Quran IS to be read as if its speaking to your generation, but not to be read as if its a prophecy for war. The book is about peace.
Exactly, unlike the great reading, the false Bible is full of prophecies. The purpose of the great reading is not to give us prophecies.
There is no need for war or destruction for things to get better and for people to start having faith.
Southern Baptists believe that Armageddon must take place in order for Jesus to return. This can become a self-fulfilling prophecy as they gain more control of the US. However, even after they fulfill their fantasy of Armageddon, it will be in vain and no one will return to save them.
After we die, the day of the account comes after what seems like a day or less. All what is needed is an accident, an illness, a killer, or old age, etc. There is no need for any prophecy to know that.
Peace and all best wishes,
Ayman
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Peace dear brother Layth, all,
Although I agree that 4411 could be talking about nuclear war or a number of other things including asteroid impact, etc., I found the following alleged connection a little bit overstretching
4411 (44th Presidential position, 11th day)
The great reading is not in "verse" form. The separation and numbering into verses was added a few hundred years later for CONVENIENCE so that people can easily reference a certain passage. In fact, the present verse numbering scheme was not agreed on until as recently as 1924! So for all intents and purposes, the current verse numbering is a completely subjective man-made arbitrary device. Thus any conclusion or alleged connection based on verse numbering is equally or more subjective.
A related point was raised by brother Peace
I'm still unsure about the two verses being removed thing, do you guys think it was completely misguided? How do you explain the missing bismillah in that surah?
The only separators between chapters are the "bismi Allah Alrahman Alrahim". So the present chapter 9 is actually part of 8 and the great reading has 113 and not 114 chapters.
This also turns what is presently chapter 44 into chapter 43.
If you look at the code in its 'original' form the way Rahsad promoted and discoverd it then it completely is verifiable and fulfills the criteria stated in 7431 regarding increasing the faith of the believers, convincing those who were hesitant, etc...
The criteria in 7431 is that those with a disease in their hearts and the rejecters will inquire "what did The God want with this example?" Anyone who gives any answer MUST have asked this question first.
The only thing that is verifiable is that from very early on there was data manipulation to make the count fit a 19 pattern. Here are some examples
- The count of letters such as "alif" was tempered with to make them add up to a number divisible by 19.
- The extra N ("noon") was added in chapter 68 to make the count work.
- The VERIFIABLE fact about verse numbering that I pointed out above was KNOWN but IGNORED by Dr. Khalifa. Here is a picture of one of the early manuscripts of the great reading
http//www.submission.org/images/7-86-87.jpg
Here is what the picture caption says (emphasis mine)
A page from the copy of the Holy Qur'an, from the time of Caliph Uthman, kept in Tashkent (part of Sura 7 verses 86-87). The red line, added by us, mark that part of verse 86 that appears in the image. The red square was added by us to mark the beginning of the verse 87.
Dr. Khlifa and his team EXAMINED the Tashkent copy early on to verify the count of the letter "S". So he KNEW very well that there were no verse separators or numbers in the great reading. Even his blind followers KNOW that fact today. Despite all this, they made extensive use of verse numbers in their miracle. So here we are not talking about miscounts or accidental errors, but we have evidence of DELIBERATELY ignoring a truth when it doesn't support a preconceived miracle.
Tempering with data to achieve a certain preconceived result is a big no-no in scientific studies. This leads me to the next subjective point in the article
What is worth also noting is that the prophecy in 4410-14 speaks of the messenger being ?well educated/clearly educated?, which matches the aspect of Dr. Khalifa possibly being the only messenger in history who was holding a doctorate degree (other messengers were always called ?magician, poet, soothsayer, crazy? but never ?well educated? which is a further clue that this messenger of 4414 has to do with the field of education and the title he would hold).
I am certain that the messenger who delivered the great reading was called "educated" in the passive. You can see the same thing ("educated by a human") said in 16103. Clearly, 16103 doesn't apply to Dr. Khalifa who did not bring anything in Arabic.
In fact, when any "educated" scientist does a peer review of a paper for a scientific journal and finds that the data has been manipulated to produce a certain result, then it doesn't matter how great the result is and the paper is summarily rejected. Thus there is no ground for dismissing Dr. Khalifa as "educated" but either as not as educated as he seemed (which I doubt) or as not applying the rigor in his education to the most important matter of all in favor of pushing a preconceived conclusion (which is the most likely scenario).
The God is The Truth. A messenger of The God is a messenger of The Truth. Inviting people to The God alone is the truth. Dr. Khalifa's supposed miracle of 19 is not. In fact, the word "miracle"/"mu3jiza(t)" never even occurs in the great reading, so this entire premise is not based on a return to the "quran" alone.
I disagree with your findings/conclusions. Code 19 was originally discovered and promoted by Khalifa based on the 'initialed' Suras of the Quran. The research indicated that '19' was the key to revealing God's signature on the Quran and to answer the 1,400 year old mystery of 'what do the initials mean?'.
That basis is not based on a proper reading because one can easily see that alleged initials such as "Alm", "Alr", etc. are not disconnected initials but are connected letters to form WORDS. Hence, "Alm" should be read and considered as the word "Alm" and not separated and spelled out as initials "alif, lam, mim". Remember it is the great reading not the great spelling.
I think that my impression is that Dr. Khalifa was a kind and well intentioned individual. Perhaps he was too committed to a certain course and forgot that we are serving The God, The Truth and not a miracle or even the great reading. I am reminded of the following sign
528-29. "If you extended to me your hand to kill me, I am not extending my hands to you to kill you, for I fear The God, the Lord of the universes. I want that you take over my sin and your sin, so you become from the fire's companions, and that is the unjust/oppressor's reimbursement."
The sins of those who are murdered are taken over by those who kill them.
The God is Compassionate Merciful.
Peace and all best wishes,
Ayman
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Peace Ayman,
The only separators between chapters are the "bismi Allah Alrahman Alrahim". So the present chapter 9 is actually part of 8 and the great reading has 113 and not 114 chapters.
I was expecting that you will apply that, what you believe is true, but just few lines away I see you saying
The criteria in 7431
? roll
Best regards,
sabo -
Peace all,
Beatnik,
But why should we know about future events such as wars? For what purpose? Simply to prepare? To warn people? I dont see the point.
I must disagree with your comment/question since it is God's established sunna to warn people prior to an event (and not to let them be destroyed with such a warning(s) being isued).
See the examples of Hud, Lot, Saleh, Noah, etc..
In-fact, read the context of Sura 36 for a very clear indication of how God's system of warning ahead of a destruction is put into effect
"And cite for them the example of the people of the town, when the messengers came to it. Where We sent two to them, but they disbelieved in them, so We supported them with a third one, thus they said 'We are messengers to you.' They replied 'You are but human beings like us, and the Almighty did not send down anything, you are only telling lies.'
They said 'Our Lord knows that we have been sent to you. And we are only required to give a clear delivery.' They replied 'We have welcomed you better than you deserve. If you do not cease, we will stone you, and you will receive a painful retribution from us!' They said 'Keep your welcome with you, for you have been reminded. Indeed, you are transgressing people.' And a man came running from the farthest part of the city, saying 'O my people, follow the messengers. Follow those who do not ask you for any wage, and are guided. And why should I not serve the One who initiated me, and to Him is your ultimate return? Shall I take gods besides Him? If the Almighty intends any harm for me, their intercession cannot help me in the least, nor can they save me. Then I would be clearly astray. I have believed in your Lord, so listen to me!' It was said 'Enter Paradise.' He said 'Oh, how I wish my people only knew! Of what my Lord has forgiven me, and made me of the honoured ones.' And We did not send down upon his people after him soldiers from the sky; for there was no need to send them down. For all it took was one scream, whereupon they were stilled." (3613-29)I'm worried by this preoccupation with foretelling the future with the Quran, I dont think its recommended in the Quran either. It just strikes me as arrogant, prideful, and dangerous behaviour.
The Quran is full of future predictions and prophecies...Look at the prophecy of Israel in chapter 17 and how it has partially come to pass...The book is written with future indications for a reason...I believe that reason is to show God's omnipotence to the reader (that God can see the future and that it will come true even though you know about it and may work to the cancel it)...As well as to give faith to the reader that this is indeed a book from the One who has created and to whom we will all return.
We have the power to prevent WW3, we shouldnt just sit on our butts and accept such a scenario! The only thing we cant prevent is Judgement Day which can strike at any time, and God says we shouldnt be so willing in rushing it.
I believe with Bush's re-elction the people have spoken as to which path they want...And since God is God, He knew that this is where we would be heading.
Ayman,
There is no need for war or destruction for things to get better and for people to start having faith.
The people of Noah or Lot or Saleh or Hud or Pharoah or Irum would not agree with your statement...God saw fit to destroy them for their actions and give the earth back to the people who will follow His path for a while...This is how God has set parameters for us on earth, that of things get out of hand He will interfere and tip the scales back to the way they should be.
The great reading is not in "verse" form. The separation and numbering into verses was added a few hundred years later for CONVENIENCE so that people can easily reference a certain passage.
Using numbers as a representation for what is already arranged as such (using the system of stars/astrexis) and in no way does it remove the sequential fact of chapter/verse. 4411 is the 44th chapter and the 11th verse even if you didn't write 44 on the chaoter and 11 on the verse.
This design can be seen in how the 'bismilla' of 11 is counted as part of the chapter and not at its heading as is the case with other chapters.
The only separators between chapters are the "bismi Allah Alrahman Alrahim". So the present chapter 9 is actually part of 8 and the great reading has 113 and not 114 chapters.
This also turns what is presently chapter 44 into chapter 43.
I disagree with this statement. The arrangement of the chapters is done by God (not man) and what we are looking at in the form of 114 chapters is what was intended
"And if We exchange a verse in place of another verse; and God is more aware of what He is revealing; they Say ?You are making this up!? Alas, most of them do not know. Say ?The holy Spirit has sent it down from your Lord with truth, so that those who believe will be strengthened, and as a guidance and good news for those who have surrendered.? (Quran 16101-102)
The only thing that is verifiable is that from very early on there was data manipulation to make the count fit a 19 pattern.
Since I have made the claim supporting the core elements of the 19 code, I will God willing be adressing this issue at a later date.
That basis is not based on a proper reading because one can easily see that alleged initials such as "Alm", "Alr", etc. are not disconnected initials but are connected letters to form WORDS. Hence, "Alm" should be read and considered as the word "Alm" and not separated and spelled out as initials "alif, lam, mim". Remember it is the great reading not the great spelling.
The Quran was revealed orally before it was written on paper (this is an obvious fact of logic)...Which means that the vocal reading ads weight to the A.L.M. being 3 seperate letters and not a word as you imply.
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Peace brother Sabo,
I was expecting that you will apply that, what you believe is true, but just few lines away I see you saying
The criteria in 7431
? roll
The separators/numbers were added for ease of reference. That is what I use them for while fully knowing that they are 100% subjective man-made devices. You are right that 74 should actually be 73, but because that's not how the present numbering scheme is, no one except those who have been following this discussion and agree with me will be able to look up what I am refering to.
Peace,
Ayman
