Spiritual stories and Symbolism
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Peace be upon you Doctor,
spirtual stories vs. symbolic conjectures ?
Or
Reality and symbolism ?
Can you elaborate?
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Peace be upon you Doctor,
spirtual stories vs. symbolic conjectures ?
Or
Reality and symbolism ?Can you elaborate?
idolfree,
"spiritual" means "vision of faith" to realize your aspirations by His Leave.
"reality" is applied spirituality, through inspiration that creates; the innumerable 'signs' in the creations of heavens and the earth are the 'creative-wisdom' that we are admonished to envision and ponder upon so that we ins;lpired to use the command called the Wisdom to lead our lives, in the heavenly way, the only way towards salam! Bring the heavenly life home with the wisdom to "Make Things Be Right There" the very moment, that which you wish for yourself without the help of anyone but Allah! this is the only way towards salam i.e. to attain peace at heart.
Applied(realizing) spirtiuality(the wisdom) brings us heavenly life in this world itself for those who believe in receiving the inspiration, by His Leave. So be a believer; stay inspired forever; live your life as Allah wishes.
Allah has given in His Book 'not spiritual sotries' but the TRUTH of 'reality-aspiration-wisdom-creation' by His command "Be" to inspire the believers through the "signs". The Signs of realized wisdom should not be criticized as the spiritual 'stories'; and worse still the 'wisdomful reality, the signs' cannot be reduced to the staus of symbolism.
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Peace be upon you Doctor,
I still have no clue what you are trying to say.
The Signs of realized wisdom should not be criticized as the spiritual 'stories'; and worse still the 'wisdomful reality, the signs' cannot be reduced to the staus of symbolism.
I have not "critisized" anything, I only showed a story from the beginning of recorded history to show the similarities in all of the "stories" that have been presented to man as spiritual lessons. Further, how can you claim that these stories are not symbolisms? Please elaborate on that point? How else should we take stories of rivers being split in two and sticks becoming active?
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how can you claim that these stories are not symbolisms? Please elaborate on that point? How else should we take stories of rivers being split in two and sticks becoming active?
First of all, what made you think those are not possible with Allah so as to search for symbolism? Do you believe the sorcerers when they did magic making their ropes and sticks becoming serpents? But then, is it difficult for you to believe the creator's ability to bring them alive for real? Or, is it difficult to believe that He can divide the sea into two, making dry path between mountain like seas on either side?
These are not stories but real happenings that happened by His Command 'Be!' for the believers to believe in His Power to Create.
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Peace be upon you Doctor,
First of all, what made you think those are not possible with Allah so as to search for symbolism?
All things are possible, but the issue is wether the God CHANGES His way of doing things or keeps it the same. The reading(quran) says He keeps it the same. The question is not about CAN the God do it, but DOES He do it. We are told not to pursue that which we have no KNOWLEDGE(Ilm) of, Do you have knowledge of sticks turning into snakes and rivers splitting (besides reading it in a book)? No you do not have that knowledge, so why would you follow that? But if you look at the stories SYMBOLICALLY as teaching a lesson, you CAN verify that lesson in our OWN LIVES. Is the lesson that we should wait for the God to split a sea for us, or is the lesson that we should use our the God's argument to create a stable path through unstable societies? Which one helps you and which one is useless?
Do you believe the sorcerers when they did magic making their ropes and sticks becoming serpents?
Not literally no. I see the magicians of today tricking people with fancy words, but he truth always devours(eats up) the falsehood, every time.
But then, is it difficult for you to believe the creator's ability to bring them alive for real?
Of course not, but this is not what the God does, he does not play favoritism, we all reap what we sow. He does not show some a "miracle" while others simply must blindly believe such stories as literal.
Or, is it difficult to believe that He can divide the sea into two, making dry path between mountain like seas on either side?
There is no doubt regarding the God's Power, but there is doubt about if that is what he did, and there is ABSOLUTELY NO PROOF that you can bring to confirm that story, is there? So why do you follow that which you have no knowledge of?
These are not stories but real happenings that happened by His Command 'Be!' for the believers to believe in His Power to Create.
You are just repeating the sayings of others, there is no evidence that you can supply that these "miracles" really happenned, but i can show you all day everyday , the verifications of the LESSONS that these stories are meant to reveal.
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Peace be upon you Doctor,
All things are possible, but the issue is wether the God CHANGES His way of doing things or keeps it the same. The reading(quran) says He keeps it the same.I say the same. There is no change in the way He creates. There is no delay or a process involved resulting in delay. Here it is, there is no change when He intends a thing.
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Verily, when He intends a thing, His Command is, "be", and it is!The question is not about CAN the God do it, but DOES He do it. We are told not to pursue that which we have no KNOWLEDGE(Ilm) of
,He does what you know not. He has what you know not. He has infinite wisdom that you can hardly imagine even. So believe in the unseen seeable. Visualize them for real. Seek from Him the wisdom. Allah answers your prayer in the like manner. If you want symbolism then it is given to you of it; if you want them in real, it is there for you. what you believe is what you get is what I say; what you reap is what you sow is what you say. We are only differing in what we are believing. Sowing and reaping is hard labour; 'Be and it is' is heavenly life.
Do you have knowledge of sticks turning into snakes and rivers splitting (besides reading it in a book)? No you do not have that knowledge, so why would you follow that?
I believe the wisdom of it is with Allah and I seek the same from Him for I believe when He says "it happened before their very eyes". The dreams you get during the sleep is real, so real that you explain the dreams vivdly when you wake up. There is none to denounce the dreams of others simply because there is no visible evidence or proof to confirm the dreams. Such is the irrefutable nature of the reality. With your limited knowledge handicapped, to see the 'unseen seeable' proof, do you want to say theories to denounce the unseen as illusory? You shall follow what you know not; you shall follow what you do not see for you have to be believer in the unseen; so that we shall not be straying since we seek the way from Allah, the source of all belief. Don't you see belief is life? You know very well the 'question of belief' comes only when there is no proof. Attempt at the 'Symbolisation' of the unseen only symbolically portrays one's disbelief.
But if you look at the stories SYMBOLICALLY as teaching a lesson, you CAN verify that lesson in our OWN LIVES
If you look at the news of god not as stories but as real, it boosts up one's belief and his aspirations.
Is the lesson that we should wait for the God to split a sea for us, or is the lesson that we should use our the God's argument to create a stable path through unstable societies? Which one helps you and which one is useless?
It is not clear to me what you want to convey above. Yet I gather that you cannot wait or observe patience for god to show his "sings". But advance before Him with your knowledge, helping yourself. I believe you cannot putforth argument on par with or over looking Allah's wisdom, over which you have no knowledge. Belief and patience is the way.
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Peace be upon you Doctor,
Do you believe the sorcerers when they did magic making their ropes and sticks becoming serpents?Not literally no. I see the magicians of today tricking people with fancy words, but he truth always devours(eats up) the falsehood, every time.
Wheter a magician is tricking you with his fancy words or not, you are seeing it without fail is important. You are not able to use your "knowledge of symbolism" to make your eyes blind to the magic or illusion that which you think it is. Which one is the truth and which one is the falsehood? If we consider between knowledge and wisdom one is the falsehood or the lesser truth against the other. If advanced knowledge is wisdom or the truth, then the lesser understanding, say knowledge which requires lessons and teachings and then audio-visual confirmation to believe is terrible dealy, waste of time and thus falsehood. Wisdom devours the knowledge; advanced understanding devours the delayed understanding; belief devours the symbolism.
But then, is it difficult for you to believe the creator's ability to bring them alive for real?
Of course not, but this is not what the God does, he does not play favoritism, we all reap what we sow. He does not show some a "miracle" while others simply must blindly believe such stories as literal.
God does not say anywhere He does "miracles". All He says is His command 'be' makes things then and there. He is All-Knowing; Wise! God does not show favoritism; He showers His abundance i.e. His Wisdom upon him that turns towards HIM. That is very clear from the Book.
Or, is it difficult to believe that He can divide the sea into two, making dry path between mountain like seas on either side?
There is no doubt regarding the God's Power, but there is doubt about if that is what he did, and there is ABSOLUTELY NO PROOF that you can bring to confirm that story, is there? So why do you follow that which you have no knowledge of?
It is not that I follow that I have no knowledge of; but seeking from Him with belief in the wisdom that I need that shall enrich my belief in His benevolence, further. Always wantring the proof for the eyes to believe is the way of worldly knowledge. But the Wisdom is advanced. It sees clearly through the vision given to us by allah. Allah sees what you do not see; Wisdom sees what the knowledge cannot see.
These are not stories but real happenings that happened by His Command 'Be!' for the believers to believe in His Power to Create.
You are just repeating the sayings of others, there is no evidence that you can supply that these "miracles" really happenned, but i can show you all day everyday , the verifications of the LESSONS that these stories are meant to reveal.
I think this is answered in my above reply. How sure are you that I am copying just what others say? Others say the wisdom as "miracles" as you repeat after them but I do not say they are miracles but "real happenings and signs for you to believe and see"!
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Peace Idol,
I was reading 134 "...2 roots...same water..." today and I thought of you. I'd like to hear your symbolic take on this. There is something here but I cannot put my finger on it. Perhaps your way of thinking will kick start me. Holla at me when you get a chance. Thanks
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Peace,
imagine a question mark ? at the end of every linebody of laws
the ten commandements, Bible.body of laws to regulate their conduct, settled their disputes justly
the quran(he) traveled../..to spread the same instructions. He induced people to accept his teachings../..he brought peace../.. to the people
JesusSet was consumed with jealousy over Ausar?s success,,Set killed Ausar,
they were brothers. Cain was jelous, killed Abel, they were brothers too.the kind died immediately of suffocation and then was resurrected
Jesus, considered as God, died and resurrected, Bible.Ausar, Auset and Horus
they are three, like the Trinity, very diferent, but three. -
Peace be upon you Doctor,
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Do you have knowledge of sticks turning into snakes and rivers splitting (besides reading it in a book)? No you do not have that knowledge, so why would you follow that?I believe the wisdom of it is with Allah and I seek the same from Him for I believe when He says "it happened before their very eyes".
Yes, I see the God's argument coming alive before my very eyes(sticks coming alive), and I see people "crossing through" the sea an unstable societies everyday(splitting sea) by using the God's argument.
The dreams you get during the sleep is real, so real that you explain the dreams vivdly when you wake up. There is none to denounce the dreams of others simply because there is no visible evidence or proof to confirm the dreams.
So you are saying you will follow any dreamer, even though you have NO KNOWLEDGE of his dream? If someone came to you and said that the "drempt" that you should jump off a bridge, will you follow that?
Such is the irrefutable nature of the reality. With your limited knowledge handicapped, to see the 'unseen seeable' proof, do you want to say theories to denounce the unseen as illusory? You shall follow what you know not; you shall follow what you do not see for you have to be believer in the unseen;
NOOOOO! You can follow that path, but please don't bring confusion to the God's clear instruction, He has told us NOT TO follow that which we have no KNOWLEDGE of. He has told us to HAVE FAITH in the UNSEEN, just like you have faith in WIND. Do you see the difference? I was told a LIE in school that Christopher Columbus discovered America, should I just belaiev in that UNSEEN statement? NO!
so that we shall not be straying since we seek the way from Allah, the source of all belief. Don't you see belief is life?
Beleif is a TOOL for programming the MIND(nafs), it is not life itself.
You know very well the 'question of belief' comes only when there is no proof. Attempt at the 'Symbolisation' of the unseen only symbolically portrays one's disbelief.
What??? Please elaborate. I agree that "belief" equals not KNOWING(being able to reason it out). However the God says He does not shy from "symbolism"(similitudes), so how can you relate that to disbelief?
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But if you look at the stories SYMBOLICALLY as teaching a lesson, you CAN verify that lesson in our OWN LIVESIf you look at the news of god not as stories but as real, it boosts up one's belief and his aspirations.
I am not looking to Boost up my beliefs, I am looking to the God to increase my knowledge, my KNOWING, not believing.
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Is the lesson that we should wait for the God to split a sea for us, or is the lesson that we should use our the God's argument to create a stable path through unstable societies? Which one helps you and which one is useless?It is not clear to me what you want to convey above.
You state here that it is not clear,but next you "gather" an assumption, how do you reason? Please read the above statement I made again, does your belief in rivers being spilt help you more, or the LESSON contained within that SYMBOLIC STORY help you better?
Yet I gather that you cannot wait or observe patience for god to show his "sings".
You have assumed wrong.
But advance before Him with your knowledge, helping yourself.
I do not advance before the God and His messenger. In what way am I helping myself as you stated above? Please elaborate.
I believe you cannot putforth argument on par with or over looking Allah's wisdom, over which you have no knowledge. Belief and patience is the way.
I leave you to your way. Itis interesting that you stated above that it is unclear to you what I am trying to convey, but conclude that I cannot put forth an argument. Try understanding my argument beofre rejecting it.
I must say though that since you disagree in seeking knowledge, but rather seek belief, I don't know if you wil ever understand my argument.
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Peace be upon you Doctor,
Wheter a magician is tricking you with his fancy words or not, you are seeing it without fail is important. You are not able to use your "knowledge of symbolism" to make your eyes blind to the magic or illusion that which you think it is. Which one is the truth and which one is the falsehood? If we consider between knowledge and wisdom one is the falsehood or the lesser truth against the other. If advanced knowledge is wisdom or the truth, then the lesser understanding, say knowledge which requires lessons and teachings and then audio-visual confirmation to believe is terrible dealy, waste of time and thus falsehood. Wisdom devours the knowledge; advanced understanding devours the delayed understanding; belief devours the symbolism.
I leave you to your path.
There is no doubt regarding the God's Power, but there is doubt about if that is what he did, and there is ABSOLUTELY NO PROOF that you can bring to confirm that story, is there? So why do you follow that which you have no knowledge of?
It is not that I follow that I have no knowledge of; but seeking from Him with belief in the wisdom that I need that shall enrich my belief in His benevolence, further. Always wantring the proof for the eyes to believe is the way of worldly knowledge.
I am NOT seeking proof of these stories happening literally, I am saying that I have no knowledge of these LITERAL events, but I have knowledge of the LESSONS that these "events" contain, and I follow THAT.
You are just repeating the sayings of others, there is no evidence that you can supply that these "miracles" really happenned, but i can show you all day everyday , the verifications of the LESSONS that these stories are meant to reveal.
I think this is answered in my above reply. How sure are you that I am copying just what others say? Others say the wisdom as "miracles" as you repeat after them but I do not say they are miracles but "real happenings and signs for you to believe and see"!
Wether you call them miracles or not, you are saying that a man LITERALLY threw a stick and it became active, correct?
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Peace be upon you Grourself,
I was reading 134 "...2 roots...same water..." today and I thought of you. I'd like to hear your symbolic take on this. There is something here but I cannot put my finger on it. Perhaps your way of thinking will kick start me. Holla at me when you get a chance. Thanks
I understand that verse in the following manner. Rain(water) is symbolized as "revelation". So , as can be clearly seen, we are all being watered with the same "revealed message", but some get more out of it than others. A sunni who blows up innocent people is "watered" with the same revelation as You and I. That should be proof enough D
I would think that he more we study plants and how they take in water, we might see even more connections.
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Peace be upon you Elena,
imagine a question mark ? at the end of every line
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body of laws
the ten commandements, Bible.The "laws" are not actually books, but principles in life that people who understand them write them down. For example, if your society has a problem with people jumping off tall buildings, then you make them aware of the law of gravity, or show them a book that says "Thou shalt not jump off tall buildings".
Our example Abraham show us how to observe nature and come to the correct understandings based on SEEING, not hearsay.
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body of laws to regulate their conduct, settled their disputes justly
the quranYes, as long as we understand "quran" is that which is read, not the book that has been given the TITLE "quran" exclusively.
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(he) traveled../..to spread the same instructions. He induced people to accept his teachings../..he brought peace../.. to the people
JesusYes, Jesus and ALL of the God's messengers, there should be no differentiating between messengers. We should be following this VERY OLD example.
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Set was consumed with jealousy over Ausar?s success,,Set killed Ausar,
they were brothers. Cain was jelous, killed Abel, they were brothers too.Yes. Further, "ausar" symbolizes the GOD WITHIN that is "dead" in MOST of humanity, they have yet to ressurect "Ausar".
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the kind died immediately of suffocation and then was resurrected
Jesus, considered as God, died and resurrected, Bible.Yes, that is where they get that from. Pay attentionto the METHOD of death, suffocation. The God BREATHES his "ruh"(divine energy) into us, SET (shyateen) suffocates us!!
If you pay attention to your breathing, it becomes restrained as you become emotional, you should take back control of your breathing and take deep breaths, like you do when you are peacefully sleeping
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Ausar, Auset and Horus
they are three, like the Trinity, very diferent, but three.Yes, that is the origin (as far as recorded findings) of the trinity. The God tells us not to say "three", because although we see many things as "threes" in this THREE dimensional world, all is ONE!
Good observations sister
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Peace be upon you Doctor,
I see the God's argument coming alive before my very eyes(sticks coming alive), and I see people "crossing through" the sea an unstable societies everyday(splitting sea) by using the God's argument.If you mean by 'argument', the 'sign' of god, it is there for us to see everywhere to believe it. God need not bring about His argument to discuss and win, for allah says His 'clear sign of truth' is in the heavens and earth for all the unlettered and illiterate to observe and believe.
So you are saying you will follow any dreamer, even though you have NO KNOWLEDGE of his dream? If someone came to you and said that the "drempt" that you should jump off a bridge, will you follow that?
Dreams are created by God. Believe and Follow "your dreams" not others'. As you have said somebody may lie about he having drempt something. So we always turn to Allah for Guidance, and He is there to answer you. God answering? To man? It is a dream-like, or worse than a dream for the nonbelievers because man hardly believes if god will ever speak to man.
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And your Lord says "Call on Me; I will answer you but those who are too arrogant to serve Me will surely find themselves in Hell - in humiliation!"So where is the question of believing someone's dream unless I get the answer from Allah myself, as a believer that I can speak with Allah. But my dream I have to believe and I seek from Him alone the explanation of dreams. I have to Follow my Prophet Yousuf in this regard.
NOOOOO! You can follow that path, but please don't bring confusion to the God's clear instruction, He has told us NOT TO follow that which we have no KNOWLEDGE of. He has told us to HAVE FAITH in the UNSEEN, just like you have faith in WIND. Do you see the difference? I was told a LIE in school that Christopher Columbus discovered America, should I just belaiev in that UNSEEN statement? NO!
You are requesting me not to bring confusion whereas you fail to see the reality of the verse
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Who believe in the Unseen!That is God's clear instruction if you see. You understood allah's verse as 'you cannot follow what you have no knowledge of ' but what I believe about the verse is one shall never become a disbeliever in the Unseen Wisdom just because he has limited understanding. The problem is I say from the stand point of believing in the wisdom when you counter me with knowledge, i.e. from the level of present understanding - the seeing and reading and conjecturing is believing. There is evolution in understanding. Just put this in opposition to your take 'God's clear instruction, He has told us NOT TO follow that which we have no KNOWLEDGE of'. This warning here is not for 'not to believe' but for "not to argue to disbelieve". If you believe that knowledge is ever evolving, then today's knowledge has evolved over yesterday's. Does it mean you can follow somethig today that you have ignored yesterday? Man to man his understanding ability varies. With regard to the verse 'about which you have no knowledge of you do not follow through' is an admonition that you do not argue over the reality of Unseen with your lesser knowledge.
idolfreeHe has told us to HAVE FAITH in the UNSEEN, just like you have faith in WIND. Do you see the difference?
Wind is 'seen' not unseen. Unseen means that which is not even felt, tasted, smelt, seen and heard using any of the fives senses of man, having been given by god as only a test to him whether He beleives in the reality and truth beyond these senses or not.
idolfree I was told a LIE in school that Christopher Columbus discovered America, should I just believe in that UNSEEN statement? NO!
Columbus whether he discovered or not, "the land" called america was existing already. Columbus was 'late' seer. I will never believe any one having ever invented anything, for it was there before invention.
so that we shall not be straying since we seek the way from Allah, the source of all belief. Don't you see belief is life?
Beleif is a TOOL for programming the MIND(nafs), it is not life itself.
For you belief is TOOL to program;
For me belief is "Be! and it is!"Quote
But if you look at the stories SYMBOLICALLY as teaching a lesson, you CAN verify that lesson in our OWN LIVESIf you look at the news of god not as stories but as real, it boosts up one's belief and his aspirations.
I am not looking to Boost up my beliefs, I am looking to the God to increase my knowledge, my KNOWING, not believing.
I believe and agree that there is degree between us we are "individuals" differing in opinions. I seek "O My Lord Increase Me In My Belief and Wisdom ", Not knowledge.
I do not understad why you ask this when it is so obvious. Ofcourse, splitting the see makes your belief stronger in the "Be! and it is!" wisdom.
Yet I gather that you cannot wait or observe patience for god to show his "sings".
You have assumed wrong.
Yes! Because our conceptions about "belief" are opposites.
But advance before Him with your knowledge, helping yourself.
I do not advance before the God and His messenger. In what way am I helping myself as you stated above? Please elaborate.
In not waiting in patience for His Signs and the Wisdom for believing the Unseen so that we do not have to make theses such as 'may be this and may be that'. Believe in what you aspire and in what you dream, whether day dream or night dream. Patience and belief in the unseen brings to you "the sign of wisdom". If we have no belief in the "unseen wisdom", then we just advance our hypotheses.
I believe you cannot putforth argument on par with or over looking Allah's wisdom, over which you have no knowledge. Belief and patience is the way.
I leave you to your way. Itis interesting that you stated above that it is unclear to you what I am trying to convey, but conclude that I cannot put forth an argument. Try understanding my argument beofre rejecting it.
Ok. Cool down. I appreciate your argument.
I must say though that since you disagree in seeking knowledge, but rather seek belief, I don't know if you wil ever understand my argument.
There is a small correction. Your argument is based on the assumption that I seek belief. No! I am not seekig belief for I am Believer. How did you ignore that? Strange!
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Peace Kyle,
I have followed your symbolism arguments for a time and share the view that there are deeper levels of meaning in them for those who ponder.
I cannot find a problem with your basic argument that God's system is established and as a rule does not change on a whim.
My questions to you are - can you encompass God's system?
Do you have perfect knowledge of God's system?
What if the changing of sticks into snakes is within the system? Can you prove it is not?
I want to draw your attention to the event of the 'big-bang' or the initiation of the universe. It is an event that for us occurred ONCE.
It has not repeated itself - and none of us did witness it - nor will we witness another event like it in our lifetimes. Does that mean that it never occurred? Because it happenned ONCE only does that invalidate it as being a part of God's system?
See - the "miracles" that are described in the Quran are described to us in literal ways - you may see the symbolic idea in them - good for you - but you have not proven or even come close to showing that they are not within God's system.
In fact the mere mentioning of these stories within God's Quran - the expounding of God's System shows plainly that these events are within God's System. The fact they occurred only once (or limited number of times) is not a valid argument against it - the fact you will not witness a similar event is also not a valid argument.
In the laws of thermodynamics there is no impediment to the possibility of a broken glass rearranging itself spontaneously and landing back up on the table it fell from. Nothing at all - the laws are clear - it is within God's System. It is within the part of God's System that we are able to study and know - to mention nothing of what we do not know.
Therefore I urge you to continue your pursuit of deeper symbolic/spiritual meanings but do not sell your arguments for more than what they are - they are your personal spiritual observations.
God is greater and encompasses the System from without and within. He controls everything and there is none like Him.
Please do not let your pride in your intellectual/spiritual pursuits override the reality that only God encompasses the System - and there is much more to it than what you will ever observe.
Keep an eye on that stick though
Peace to you.
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Peace be upon you Brother Fazl,
idolfree1 wrote
Peace be upon you Doctor,
I see the God's argument coming alive before my very eyes(sticks coming alive), and I see people "crossing through" the sea an unstable societies everyday(splitting sea) by using the God's argument.If you mean by 'argument', the 'sign' of god, it is there for us to see everywhere to believe it. God need not bring about His argument to discuss and win, for allah says His 'clear sign of truth' is in the heavens and earth for all the unlettered and illiterate to observe and believe.
Yes, the God's signs are ongoing, they do not stop. Are there still seas spiltting and sticks turning into snakes LITERALLY? Yet there are still people using debates of truth to eat up all falsehoods, there are still people making there way through unstabable socieities/governments (sea was split into two "mountains"). So the God IS brining forth His argument at all times, but some are waiting to see the actual stick to change into a snake literally.
Bruce Lee once said while pointing to the sky "don't concentrate on the finger or you will miss all of that heavenly glory". These stories are POINTING us to a certain REALITY, one that can be VERIFIED so we can know it is TRUTH, not so we can have doubt and say "MAYBE it will literally happen in the future", even though no one living can attest to such an event.
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So you are saying you will follow any dreamer, even though you have NO KNOWLEDGE of his dream? If someone came to you and said that the "drempt" that you should jump off a bridge, will you follow that?Dreams are created by God. Believe and Follow "your dreams" not others'. As you have said somebody may lie about he having drempt something. So we always turn to Allah for Guidance, and He is there to answer you. God answering? To man? It is a dream-like, or worse than a dream for the nonbelievers because man hardly believes if god will ever speak to man.
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And your Lord says "Call on Me; I will answer you but those who are too arrogant to serve Me will surely find themselves in Hell - in humiliation!"So where is the question of believing someone's dream unless I get the answer from Allah myself, as a believer that I can speak with Allah. But my dream I have to believe and I seek from Him alone the explanation of dreams. I have to Follow my Prophet Yousuf in this regard.
Yes, I agree that dreams give u sgreat insight. What I responded to above was your following comment "There is none to denounce the dreams of others simply because there is no visible evidence or proof to confirm the dreams". Yes, we cannot denounce thier dreams, but we CERTAINLY do not blindly accept them, thats the point.
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NOOOOO! You can follow that path, but please don't bring confusion to the God's clear instruction, He has told us NOT TO follow that which we have no KNOWLEDGE of. He has told us to HAVE FAITH in the UNSEEN, just like you have faith in WIND. Do you see the difference? I was told a LIE in school that Christopher Columbus discovered America, should I just belaiev in that UNSEEN statement? NO!You are requesting me not to bring confusion whereas you fail to see the reality of the verse
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Who believe in the Unseen!That is God's clear instruction if you see.
Yes, the instruction is to have faith in the Unseen, NOT the unknown, thats what you are missing. Like wind, we can have faith in it even though we can't see it. WHy? Because we can SEE its effects, and therefore study it. We can have faith in "thougts" because we can SEE thier effects. The God tells us not to pursue that which we have NO KNOWLEDGE(ILM) of.
Give me one good reason why I should have faith that a stick has/will be turned into a LITERAL snake.
You understood allah's verse as 'you cannot follow what you have no knowledge of ' but what I believe about the verse is one shall never become a disbeliever in the Unseen Wisdom just because he has limited understanding.
Well , my understanding is exactly what he verse says, yours is not what the verse says, just like your position on saying "Peace" and your position on saying "My Lord, increase my Knowledge".
The problem is I say from the stand point of believing in the wisdom when you counter me with knowledge, i.e. from the level of present understanding
Give me a break. Are you trying to tell us here that the information you are writing is some divine wisdom, while anyone who disagrees with you is only presenting wordly knowledge? Lets remain balanced and continue logical debate. I would like you to provide evidence, not hearsay.
the seeing and reading and conjecturing is believing. There is evolution in understanding. Just put this in opposition to your take 'God's clear instruction, He has told us NOT TO follow that which we have no KNOWLEDGE of'. This warning here is not for 'not to believe' but for "not to argue to disbelieve". If you believe that knowledge is ever evolving, then today's knowledge has evolved over yesterday's.
No, KNOWLEDGE does not evolve, theories evolve. Knowledge is KNOWING. Belief is what evolves until it reaches KNOWING (Knowledge), that is why the God says for us to say "My Lord, increase my KNOWLEDGE/KNOWING" He wants us to get out of mere believing which can be blind faith. He wanst us to be like scientists and to KNOW!
Does it mean you can follow somethig today that you have ignored yesterday? Man to man his understanding ability varies. With regard to the verse 'about which you have no knowledge of you do not follow through' is an admonition that you do not argue over the reality of Unseen with your lesser knowledge.
So are you saying that the reality of the unseen is a stick turning into a snake? Lets use this example as we continue to debate this.
idolfreeHe has told us to HAVE FAITH in the UNSEEN, just like you have faith in WIND. Do you see the difference?
Wind is 'seen' not unseen.
WHAT???? shock
Unseen means that which is not even felt
No brother, that would be NOT FELT.
, tasted
That would be NOT TASTED.
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smelt, seen and heard using any of the fives senses of man, having been given by god as only a test to him whether He beleives in the reality and truth beyond these senses or not.That would be NOT SMELT and NOT HEARD, NONE of them equal UNSEEN(NOT SEEN). Where are you getting this information? We cannot move past this until you elaborate on how you take the concept of UNSEEN and try to add HEARING, SMELLING, TASTING, and FEELING to the equation?
idolfree I was told a LIE in school that Christopher Columbus discovered America, should I just believe in that UNSEEN statement? NO!
Columbus whether he discovered or not, "the land" called america was existing already. Columbus was 'late' seer. I will never believe any one having ever invented anything, for it was there before invention.
I am glad that you are aware that he did not discover America, I hope that you can bring that clear understanding to this debate.
I do not advance before the God and His messenger. In what way am I helping myself as you stated above? Please elaborate.
In not waiting in patience for His Signs and the Wisdom for believing the Unseen so that we do not have to make theses such as 'may be this and may be that'. Believe in what you aspire and in what you dream, whether day dream or night dream. Patience and belief in the unseen brings to you "the sign of wisdom". If we have no belief in the "unseen wisdom", then we just advance our hypotheses.
But you are assuming that I have not seen the Signs of the God. I have!! D And I tell you ovver and over again how I see TODAY the "spilitting of the sea" and the "stick turning into a snake', but of course not literally those events, but the SYMBOLIC LESSON contained therein, I see right now, and THAT is the sign. I was patient yet persistent, and it came, and I continue to be patinent and persistent so they all might come.
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I believe you cannot putforth argument on par with or over looking Allah's wisdom, over which you have no knowledge. Belief and patience is the way.I leave you to your way. Itis interesting that you stated above that it is unclear to you what I am trying to convey, but conclude that I cannot put forth an argument. Try understanding my argument beofre rejecting it.
Ok. Cool down. I appreciate your argument.
I am always calm brother, but how can you appreciate something that you state is "Unclear"? D
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I must say though that since you disagree in seeking knowledge, but rather seek belief, I don't know if you wil ever understand my argument.There is a small correction. Your argument is based on the assumption that I seek belief. No! I am not seekig belief for I am Believer. How did you ignore that? Strange!
If you are not seeking KNOWLEDGE/KNOWING, than all that is left is belief(NOT KNOWING), nothing was missed by me my brother.
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Peace be upon you Truth,
I have followed your symbolism arguments for a time and share the view that there are deeper levels of meaning in them for those who ponder.
I cannot find a problem with your basic argument that God's system is established and as a rule does not change on a whim.
My questions to you are - can you encompass God's system?
If you are asking if I myself can do so, then the answer is no, at this time I do not claim that I have complete understanding of the God's system. But if you are asking if I think a human being can reach that level, the answer is YES. If not, then how do we have the complete system written by a man? A prophet is one who, by following the God's divine system, becomes one who can intuit from within the God's Word (Speaks to God in the Musa stage of development).
Do not think that this means that understanding the God's system means understanding all of creation. Understanding the system means that you can understand how to move through this creation with a purpose, it means that you can discern the LAWS of the universe as they come to you. All things that come to you in creation you can get a good understanding of so you can CONTROL your way through. The God does not want us to CHANCE into tommorrow, He wants us to be in control and to plan. The man of God plans while others scheme.
Do you have perfect knowledge of God's system?
No.
What if the changing of sticks into snakes is within the system? Can you prove it is not?
No, but what you should be asking is why would I need to prove something I have no knowledge of? The God told me not to pursue that, so how would I look trying to prove that is doesn't happen? My argument is that we have no knowledge that these things happen, so we do not pursue that avenue. The avenue that gives us KNOWING is in the LESSON.
I want to draw your attention to the event of the 'big-bang' or the initiation of the universe. It is an event that for us occurred ONCE.
It has not repeated itself - and none of us did witness it - nor will we witness another event like it in our lifetimes. Does that mean that it never occurred? Because it happenned ONCE only does that invalidate it as being a part of God's system?
No, it did occur and we are told about it and all science points to it. Yet it is not part of a SYMBOLIC STORY. That is one of the Literal verses. Please understand the difference. The God gives us the STORIES as life lessons so we can use the examples to find our way through this book(life).
See - the "miracles" that are described in the Quran are described to us in literal ways - you may see the symbolic idea in them - good for you - but you have not proven or even come close to showing that they are not within God's system.
The so called "miracles" are all part of STORIES of the Prophets and messengers, the Big Bang is not.
(2434) And We had descended to you clear signs , and a similitude/Symbolism (mathalan) from those who past/expired from before you, and an advice/warning to the fearing and obeying.
The above states that what we get from the "stories of the past" is in the form of SIMILITUDE(SYMBOLISM).
In fact the mere mentioning of these stories within God's Quran - the expounding of God's System shows plainly that these events are within God's System. The fact they occurred only once (or limited number of times) is not a valid argument against it - the fact you will not witness a similar event is also not a valid argument.
But you see, I do not need a valid argument against it, the God has given me a VALDI ARGUMENT not to even go near that type of understanding which I have NO KNOWLEDGE OF. Reading it in a book called "Quran" does not make it TRUE. VERIFICATION makes things true. That is why the God , after telling us not to pursue that which we have no knowledge, states that the eyes and hearing and intelligence will be held accountable.
Again, it is not possible for me to PROVE that such events did not happen literally, just the same way than no one can PROVE they did, but since this is the UNKNOWN (Not same as UNSEEN), we do not even need to follow that path.
I am sure we all agree that following the LESSONS of these SYMBOLIC STORIES is beneficial and can bring numerous verifications from our lives. That is the KNOWING. D
In the laws of thermodynamics there is no impediment to the possibility of a broken glass rearranging itself spontaneously and landing back up on the table it fell from. Nothing at all - the laws are clear - it is within God's System. It is within the part of God's System that we are able to study and know - to mention nothing of what we do not know.
Did you just say that a glass fell off a table, broke in pieces, then by itself, jumped back up on the table and came back together? Is that what you said? Please give me all information you have on that experiment, do not hold back any of this evidence.
Therefore I urge you to continue your pursuit of deeper symbolic/spiritual meanings but do not sell your arguments for more than what they are - they are your personal spiritual observations.
I am not sellng anything, only delivering my debate as instructed by my Lord. I do not force my understanding on anyone, but I will militantly present this arguement so that we can all witness if it will stand of fall. I will not keep in in the shadows. I will bring it to the forefront and sit it right on the table under the spotlight for all to inspect so there can be no doubt. And if there is something that truns out to be wrong, then I will make the proper adjustments and continue to follow the Qibla designated by or Lord.
So far, I have not seen eany evidence that my position is incorrect. If you can show me soem evidence frm teh STORIES, not the literal verses, then we can continue to debate. Or if you can provide the experiment where the glass broke then came back together without any other forces but itself, then we can talk more about that also.
God is greater and encompasses the System from without and within. He controls everything and there is none like Him.
I do not doubt that at all.
Please do not let your pride in your intellectual/spiritual pursuits override the reality that only God encompasses the System - and there is much more to it than what you will ever observe.
Agreed, and I will contiue to wait on evidence that what I have stated is incorrect.
Keep an eye on that stick though
Why? D
Bruce Lee (while pionting to the Heavens) "Do not concentrate on the finger or you will MISS all of the Heavenly Glory!"
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Peace be upon you Elena,
Peace be upon you Idolfree,
what more similarities are there between the story of Ausar and the texts called Bible and "Quran", please?
These are in many levels. I will try to give some as they come along. Also, you might be able to find good info on internet search. Just remember that many call Ausar (Osirus).