Spiritual stories and Symbolism
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Peace be upon you Doctor,
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Do you have knowledge of sticks turning into snakes and rivers splitting (besides reading it in a book)? No you do not have that knowledge, so why would you follow that?I believe the wisdom of it is with Allah and I seek the same from Him for I believe when He says "it happened before their very eyes".
Yes, I see the God's argument coming alive before my very eyes(sticks coming alive), and I see people "crossing through" the sea an unstable societies everyday(splitting sea) by using the God's argument.
The dreams you get during the sleep is real, so real that you explain the dreams vivdly when you wake up. There is none to denounce the dreams of others simply because there is no visible evidence or proof to confirm the dreams.
So you are saying you will follow any dreamer, even though you have NO KNOWLEDGE of his dream? If someone came to you and said that the "drempt" that you should jump off a bridge, will you follow that?
Such is the irrefutable nature of the reality. With your limited knowledge handicapped, to see the 'unseen seeable' proof, do you want to say theories to denounce the unseen as illusory? You shall follow what you know not; you shall follow what you do not see for you have to be believer in the unseen;
NOOOOO! You can follow that path, but please don't bring confusion to the God's clear instruction, He has told us NOT TO follow that which we have no KNOWLEDGE of. He has told us to HAVE FAITH in the UNSEEN, just like you have faith in WIND. Do you see the difference? I was told a LIE in school that Christopher Columbus discovered America, should I just belaiev in that UNSEEN statement? NO!
so that we shall not be straying since we seek the way from Allah, the source of all belief. Don't you see belief is life?
Beleif is a TOOL for programming the MIND(nafs), it is not life itself.
You know very well the 'question of belief' comes only when there is no proof. Attempt at the 'Symbolisation' of the unseen only symbolically portrays one's disbelief.
What??? Please elaborate. I agree that "belief" equals not KNOWING(being able to reason it out). However the God says He does not shy from "symbolism"(similitudes), so how can you relate that to disbelief?
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But if you look at the stories SYMBOLICALLY as teaching a lesson, you CAN verify that lesson in our OWN LIVESIf you look at the news of god not as stories but as real, it boosts up one's belief and his aspirations.
I am not looking to Boost up my beliefs, I am looking to the God to increase my knowledge, my KNOWING, not believing.
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Is the lesson that we should wait for the God to split a sea for us, or is the lesson that we should use our the God's argument to create a stable path through unstable societies? Which one helps you and which one is useless?It is not clear to me what you want to convey above.
You state here that it is not clear,but next you "gather" an assumption, how do you reason? Please read the above statement I made again, does your belief in rivers being spilt help you more, or the LESSON contained within that SYMBOLIC STORY help you better?
Yet I gather that you cannot wait or observe patience for god to show his "sings".
You have assumed wrong.
But advance before Him with your knowledge, helping yourself.
I do not advance before the God and His messenger. In what way am I helping myself as you stated above? Please elaborate.
I believe you cannot putforth argument on par with or over looking Allah's wisdom, over which you have no knowledge. Belief and patience is the way.
I leave you to your way. Itis interesting that you stated above that it is unclear to you what I am trying to convey, but conclude that I cannot put forth an argument. Try understanding my argument beofre rejecting it.
I must say though that since you disagree in seeking knowledge, but rather seek belief, I don't know if you wil ever understand my argument.
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Peace be upon you Doctor,
Wheter a magician is tricking you with his fancy words or not, you are seeing it without fail is important. You are not able to use your "knowledge of symbolism" to make your eyes blind to the magic or illusion that which you think it is. Which one is the truth and which one is the falsehood? If we consider between knowledge and wisdom one is the falsehood or the lesser truth against the other. If advanced knowledge is wisdom or the truth, then the lesser understanding, say knowledge which requires lessons and teachings and then audio-visual confirmation to believe is terrible dealy, waste of time and thus falsehood. Wisdom devours the knowledge; advanced understanding devours the delayed understanding; belief devours the symbolism.
I leave you to your path.
There is no doubt regarding the God's Power, but there is doubt about if that is what he did, and there is ABSOLUTELY NO PROOF that you can bring to confirm that story, is there? So why do you follow that which you have no knowledge of?
It is not that I follow that I have no knowledge of; but seeking from Him with belief in the wisdom that I need that shall enrich my belief in His benevolence, further. Always wantring the proof for the eyes to believe is the way of worldly knowledge.
I am NOT seeking proof of these stories happening literally, I am saying that I have no knowledge of these LITERAL events, but I have knowledge of the LESSONS that these "events" contain, and I follow THAT.
You are just repeating the sayings of others, there is no evidence that you can supply that these "miracles" really happenned, but i can show you all day everyday , the verifications of the LESSONS that these stories are meant to reveal.
I think this is answered in my above reply. How sure are you that I am copying just what others say? Others say the wisdom as "miracles" as you repeat after them but I do not say they are miracles but "real happenings and signs for you to believe and see"!
Wether you call them miracles or not, you are saying that a man LITERALLY threw a stick and it became active, correct?
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Peace be upon you Grourself,
I was reading 134 "...2 roots...same water..." today and I thought of you. I'd like to hear your symbolic take on this. There is something here but I cannot put my finger on it. Perhaps your way of thinking will kick start me. Holla at me when you get a chance. Thanks
I understand that verse in the following manner. Rain(water) is symbolized as "revelation". So , as can be clearly seen, we are all being watered with the same "revealed message", but some get more out of it than others. A sunni who blows up innocent people is "watered" with the same revelation as You and I. That should be proof enough D
I would think that he more we study plants and how they take in water, we might see even more connections.
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Peace be upon you Elena,
imagine a question mark ? at the end of every line
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body of laws
the ten commandements, Bible.The "laws" are not actually books, but principles in life that people who understand them write them down. For example, if your society has a problem with people jumping off tall buildings, then you make them aware of the law of gravity, or show them a book that says "Thou shalt not jump off tall buildings".
Our example Abraham show us how to observe nature and come to the correct understandings based on SEEING, not hearsay.
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body of laws to regulate their conduct, settled their disputes justly
the quranYes, as long as we understand "quran" is that which is read, not the book that has been given the TITLE "quran" exclusively.
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(he) traveled../..to spread the same instructions. He induced people to accept his teachings../..he brought peace../.. to the people
JesusYes, Jesus and ALL of the God's messengers, there should be no differentiating between messengers. We should be following this VERY OLD example.
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Set was consumed with jealousy over Ausar?s success,,Set killed Ausar,
they were brothers. Cain was jelous, killed Abel, they were brothers too.Yes. Further, "ausar" symbolizes the GOD WITHIN that is "dead" in MOST of humanity, they have yet to ressurect "Ausar".
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the kind died immediately of suffocation and then was resurrected
Jesus, considered as God, died and resurrected, Bible.Yes, that is where they get that from. Pay attentionto the METHOD of death, suffocation. The God BREATHES his "ruh"(divine energy) into us, SET (shyateen) suffocates us!!
If you pay attention to your breathing, it becomes restrained as you become emotional, you should take back control of your breathing and take deep breaths, like you do when you are peacefully sleeping
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Ausar, Auset and Horus
they are three, like the Trinity, very diferent, but three.Yes, that is the origin (as far as recorded findings) of the trinity. The God tells us not to say "three", because although we see many things as "threes" in this THREE dimensional world, all is ONE!
Good observations sister
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Peace be upon you Doctor,
I see the God's argument coming alive before my very eyes(sticks coming alive), and I see people "crossing through" the sea an unstable societies everyday(splitting sea) by using the God's argument.If you mean by 'argument', the 'sign' of god, it is there for us to see everywhere to believe it. God need not bring about His argument to discuss and win, for allah says His 'clear sign of truth' is in the heavens and earth for all the unlettered and illiterate to observe and believe.
So you are saying you will follow any dreamer, even though you have NO KNOWLEDGE of his dream? If someone came to you and said that the "drempt" that you should jump off a bridge, will you follow that?
Dreams are created by God. Believe and Follow "your dreams" not others'. As you have said somebody may lie about he having drempt something. So we always turn to Allah for Guidance, and He is there to answer you. God answering? To man? It is a dream-like, or worse than a dream for the nonbelievers because man hardly believes if god will ever speak to man.
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And your Lord says "Call on Me; I will answer you but those who are too arrogant to serve Me will surely find themselves in Hell - in humiliation!"So where is the question of believing someone's dream unless I get the answer from Allah myself, as a believer that I can speak with Allah. But my dream I have to believe and I seek from Him alone the explanation of dreams. I have to Follow my Prophet Yousuf in this regard.
NOOOOO! You can follow that path, but please don't bring confusion to the God's clear instruction, He has told us NOT TO follow that which we have no KNOWLEDGE of. He has told us to HAVE FAITH in the UNSEEN, just like you have faith in WIND. Do you see the difference? I was told a LIE in school that Christopher Columbus discovered America, should I just belaiev in that UNSEEN statement? NO!
You are requesting me not to bring confusion whereas you fail to see the reality of the verse
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Who believe in the Unseen!That is God's clear instruction if you see. You understood allah's verse as 'you cannot follow what you have no knowledge of ' but what I believe about the verse is one shall never become a disbeliever in the Unseen Wisdom just because he has limited understanding. The problem is I say from the stand point of believing in the wisdom when you counter me with knowledge, i.e. from the level of present understanding - the seeing and reading and conjecturing is believing. There is evolution in understanding. Just put this in opposition to your take 'God's clear instruction, He has told us NOT TO follow that which we have no KNOWLEDGE of'. This warning here is not for 'not to believe' but for "not to argue to disbelieve". If you believe that knowledge is ever evolving, then today's knowledge has evolved over yesterday's. Does it mean you can follow somethig today that you have ignored yesterday? Man to man his understanding ability varies. With regard to the verse 'about which you have no knowledge of you do not follow through' is an admonition that you do not argue over the reality of Unseen with your lesser knowledge.
idolfreeHe has told us to HAVE FAITH in the UNSEEN, just like you have faith in WIND. Do you see the difference?
Wind is 'seen' not unseen. Unseen means that which is not even felt, tasted, smelt, seen and heard using any of the fives senses of man, having been given by god as only a test to him whether He beleives in the reality and truth beyond these senses or not.
idolfree I was told a LIE in school that Christopher Columbus discovered America, should I just believe in that UNSEEN statement? NO!
Columbus whether he discovered or not, "the land" called america was existing already. Columbus was 'late' seer. I will never believe any one having ever invented anything, for it was there before invention.
so that we shall not be straying since we seek the way from Allah, the source of all belief. Don't you see belief is life?
Beleif is a TOOL for programming the MIND(nafs), it is not life itself.
For you belief is TOOL to program;
For me belief is "Be! and it is!"Quote
But if you look at the stories SYMBOLICALLY as teaching a lesson, you CAN verify that lesson in our OWN LIVESIf you look at the news of god not as stories but as real, it boosts up one's belief and his aspirations.
I am not looking to Boost up my beliefs, I am looking to the God to increase my knowledge, my KNOWING, not believing.
I believe and agree that there is degree between us we are "individuals" differing in opinions. I seek "O My Lord Increase Me In My Belief and Wisdom ", Not knowledge.
I do not understad why you ask this when it is so obvious. Ofcourse, splitting the see makes your belief stronger in the "Be! and it is!" wisdom.
Yet I gather that you cannot wait or observe patience for god to show his "sings".
You have assumed wrong.
Yes! Because our conceptions about "belief" are opposites.
But advance before Him with your knowledge, helping yourself.
I do not advance before the God and His messenger. In what way am I helping myself as you stated above? Please elaborate.
In not waiting in patience for His Signs and the Wisdom for believing the Unseen so that we do not have to make theses such as 'may be this and may be that'. Believe in what you aspire and in what you dream, whether day dream or night dream. Patience and belief in the unseen brings to you "the sign of wisdom". If we have no belief in the "unseen wisdom", then we just advance our hypotheses.
I believe you cannot putforth argument on par with or over looking Allah's wisdom, over which you have no knowledge. Belief and patience is the way.
I leave you to your way. Itis interesting that you stated above that it is unclear to you what I am trying to convey, but conclude that I cannot put forth an argument. Try understanding my argument beofre rejecting it.
Ok. Cool down. I appreciate your argument.
I must say though that since you disagree in seeking knowledge, but rather seek belief, I don't know if you wil ever understand my argument.
There is a small correction. Your argument is based on the assumption that I seek belief. No! I am not seekig belief for I am Believer. How did you ignore that? Strange!
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Peace Kyle,
I have followed your symbolism arguments for a time and share the view that there are deeper levels of meaning in them for those who ponder.
I cannot find a problem with your basic argument that God's system is established and as a rule does not change on a whim.
My questions to you are - can you encompass God's system?
Do you have perfect knowledge of God's system?
What if the changing of sticks into snakes is within the system? Can you prove it is not?
I want to draw your attention to the event of the 'big-bang' or the initiation of the universe. It is an event that for us occurred ONCE.
It has not repeated itself - and none of us did witness it - nor will we witness another event like it in our lifetimes. Does that mean that it never occurred? Because it happenned ONCE only does that invalidate it as being a part of God's system?
See - the "miracles" that are described in the Quran are described to us in literal ways - you may see the symbolic idea in them - good for you - but you have not proven or even come close to showing that they are not within God's system.
In fact the mere mentioning of these stories within God's Quran - the expounding of God's System shows plainly that these events are within God's System. The fact they occurred only once (or limited number of times) is not a valid argument against it - the fact you will not witness a similar event is also not a valid argument.
In the laws of thermodynamics there is no impediment to the possibility of a broken glass rearranging itself spontaneously and landing back up on the table it fell from. Nothing at all - the laws are clear - it is within God's System. It is within the part of God's System that we are able to study and know - to mention nothing of what we do not know.
Therefore I urge you to continue your pursuit of deeper symbolic/spiritual meanings but do not sell your arguments for more than what they are - they are your personal spiritual observations.
God is greater and encompasses the System from without and within. He controls everything and there is none like Him.
Please do not let your pride in your intellectual/spiritual pursuits override the reality that only God encompasses the System - and there is much more to it than what you will ever observe.
Keep an eye on that stick though
Peace to you.
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Peace be upon you Brother Fazl,
idolfree1 wrote
Peace be upon you Doctor,
I see the God's argument coming alive before my very eyes(sticks coming alive), and I see people "crossing through" the sea an unstable societies everyday(splitting sea) by using the God's argument.If you mean by 'argument', the 'sign' of god, it is there for us to see everywhere to believe it. God need not bring about His argument to discuss and win, for allah says His 'clear sign of truth' is in the heavens and earth for all the unlettered and illiterate to observe and believe.
Yes, the God's signs are ongoing, they do not stop. Are there still seas spiltting and sticks turning into snakes LITERALLY? Yet there are still people using debates of truth to eat up all falsehoods, there are still people making there way through unstabable socieities/governments (sea was split into two "mountains"). So the God IS brining forth His argument at all times, but some are waiting to see the actual stick to change into a snake literally.
Bruce Lee once said while pointing to the sky "don't concentrate on the finger or you will miss all of that heavenly glory". These stories are POINTING us to a certain REALITY, one that can be VERIFIED so we can know it is TRUTH, not so we can have doubt and say "MAYBE it will literally happen in the future", even though no one living can attest to such an event.
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So you are saying you will follow any dreamer, even though you have NO KNOWLEDGE of his dream? If someone came to you and said that the "drempt" that you should jump off a bridge, will you follow that?Dreams are created by God. Believe and Follow "your dreams" not others'. As you have said somebody may lie about he having drempt something. So we always turn to Allah for Guidance, and He is there to answer you. God answering? To man? It is a dream-like, or worse than a dream for the nonbelievers because man hardly believes if god will ever speak to man.
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And your Lord says "Call on Me; I will answer you but those who are too arrogant to serve Me will surely find themselves in Hell - in humiliation!"So where is the question of believing someone's dream unless I get the answer from Allah myself, as a believer that I can speak with Allah. But my dream I have to believe and I seek from Him alone the explanation of dreams. I have to Follow my Prophet Yousuf in this regard.
Yes, I agree that dreams give u sgreat insight. What I responded to above was your following comment "There is none to denounce the dreams of others simply because there is no visible evidence or proof to confirm the dreams". Yes, we cannot denounce thier dreams, but we CERTAINLY do not blindly accept them, thats the point.
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NOOOOO! You can follow that path, but please don't bring confusion to the God's clear instruction, He has told us NOT TO follow that which we have no KNOWLEDGE of. He has told us to HAVE FAITH in the UNSEEN, just like you have faith in WIND. Do you see the difference? I was told a LIE in school that Christopher Columbus discovered America, should I just belaiev in that UNSEEN statement? NO!You are requesting me not to bring confusion whereas you fail to see the reality of the verse
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Who believe in the Unseen!That is God's clear instruction if you see.
Yes, the instruction is to have faith in the Unseen, NOT the unknown, thats what you are missing. Like wind, we can have faith in it even though we can't see it. WHy? Because we can SEE its effects, and therefore study it. We can have faith in "thougts" because we can SEE thier effects. The God tells us not to pursue that which we have NO KNOWLEDGE(ILM) of.
Give me one good reason why I should have faith that a stick has/will be turned into a LITERAL snake.
You understood allah's verse as 'you cannot follow what you have no knowledge of ' but what I believe about the verse is one shall never become a disbeliever in the Unseen Wisdom just because he has limited understanding.
Well , my understanding is exactly what he verse says, yours is not what the verse says, just like your position on saying "Peace" and your position on saying "My Lord, increase my Knowledge".
The problem is I say from the stand point of believing in the wisdom when you counter me with knowledge, i.e. from the level of present understanding
Give me a break. Are you trying to tell us here that the information you are writing is some divine wisdom, while anyone who disagrees with you is only presenting wordly knowledge? Lets remain balanced and continue logical debate. I would like you to provide evidence, not hearsay.
the seeing and reading and conjecturing is believing. There is evolution in understanding. Just put this in opposition to your take 'God's clear instruction, He has told us NOT TO follow that which we have no KNOWLEDGE of'. This warning here is not for 'not to believe' but for "not to argue to disbelieve". If you believe that knowledge is ever evolving, then today's knowledge has evolved over yesterday's.
No, KNOWLEDGE does not evolve, theories evolve. Knowledge is KNOWING. Belief is what evolves until it reaches KNOWING (Knowledge), that is why the God says for us to say "My Lord, increase my KNOWLEDGE/KNOWING" He wants us to get out of mere believing which can be blind faith. He wanst us to be like scientists and to KNOW!
Does it mean you can follow somethig today that you have ignored yesterday? Man to man his understanding ability varies. With regard to the verse 'about which you have no knowledge of you do not follow through' is an admonition that you do not argue over the reality of Unseen with your lesser knowledge.
So are you saying that the reality of the unseen is a stick turning into a snake? Lets use this example as we continue to debate this.
idolfreeHe has told us to HAVE FAITH in the UNSEEN, just like you have faith in WIND. Do you see the difference?
Wind is 'seen' not unseen.
WHAT???? shock
Unseen means that which is not even felt
No brother, that would be NOT FELT.
, tasted
That would be NOT TASTED.
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smelt, seen and heard using any of the fives senses of man, having been given by god as only a test to him whether He beleives in the reality and truth beyond these senses or not.That would be NOT SMELT and NOT HEARD, NONE of them equal UNSEEN(NOT SEEN). Where are you getting this information? We cannot move past this until you elaborate on how you take the concept of UNSEEN and try to add HEARING, SMELLING, TASTING, and FEELING to the equation?
idolfree I was told a LIE in school that Christopher Columbus discovered America, should I just believe in that UNSEEN statement? NO!
Columbus whether he discovered or not, "the land" called america was existing already. Columbus was 'late' seer. I will never believe any one having ever invented anything, for it was there before invention.
I am glad that you are aware that he did not discover America, I hope that you can bring that clear understanding to this debate.
I do not advance before the God and His messenger. In what way am I helping myself as you stated above? Please elaborate.
In not waiting in patience for His Signs and the Wisdom for believing the Unseen so that we do not have to make theses such as 'may be this and may be that'. Believe in what you aspire and in what you dream, whether day dream or night dream. Patience and belief in the unseen brings to you "the sign of wisdom". If we have no belief in the "unseen wisdom", then we just advance our hypotheses.
But you are assuming that I have not seen the Signs of the God. I have!! D And I tell you ovver and over again how I see TODAY the "spilitting of the sea" and the "stick turning into a snake', but of course not literally those events, but the SYMBOLIC LESSON contained therein, I see right now, and THAT is the sign. I was patient yet persistent, and it came, and I continue to be patinent and persistent so they all might come.
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I believe you cannot putforth argument on par with or over looking Allah's wisdom, over which you have no knowledge. Belief and patience is the way.I leave you to your way. Itis interesting that you stated above that it is unclear to you what I am trying to convey, but conclude that I cannot put forth an argument. Try understanding my argument beofre rejecting it.
Ok. Cool down. I appreciate your argument.
I am always calm brother, but how can you appreciate something that you state is "Unclear"? D
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I must say though that since you disagree in seeking knowledge, but rather seek belief, I don't know if you wil ever understand my argument.There is a small correction. Your argument is based on the assumption that I seek belief. No! I am not seekig belief for I am Believer. How did you ignore that? Strange!
If you are not seeking KNOWLEDGE/KNOWING, than all that is left is belief(NOT KNOWING), nothing was missed by me my brother.
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Peace be upon you Truth,
I have followed your symbolism arguments for a time and share the view that there are deeper levels of meaning in them for those who ponder.
I cannot find a problem with your basic argument that God's system is established and as a rule does not change on a whim.
My questions to you are - can you encompass God's system?
If you are asking if I myself can do so, then the answer is no, at this time I do not claim that I have complete understanding of the God's system. But if you are asking if I think a human being can reach that level, the answer is YES. If not, then how do we have the complete system written by a man? A prophet is one who, by following the God's divine system, becomes one who can intuit from within the God's Word (Speaks to God in the Musa stage of development).
Do not think that this means that understanding the God's system means understanding all of creation. Understanding the system means that you can understand how to move through this creation with a purpose, it means that you can discern the LAWS of the universe as they come to you. All things that come to you in creation you can get a good understanding of so you can CONTROL your way through. The God does not want us to CHANCE into tommorrow, He wants us to be in control and to plan. The man of God plans while others scheme.
Do you have perfect knowledge of God's system?
No.
What if the changing of sticks into snakes is within the system? Can you prove it is not?
No, but what you should be asking is why would I need to prove something I have no knowledge of? The God told me not to pursue that, so how would I look trying to prove that is doesn't happen? My argument is that we have no knowledge that these things happen, so we do not pursue that avenue. The avenue that gives us KNOWING is in the LESSON.
I want to draw your attention to the event of the 'big-bang' or the initiation of the universe. It is an event that for us occurred ONCE.
It has not repeated itself - and none of us did witness it - nor will we witness another event like it in our lifetimes. Does that mean that it never occurred? Because it happenned ONCE only does that invalidate it as being a part of God's system?
No, it did occur and we are told about it and all science points to it. Yet it is not part of a SYMBOLIC STORY. That is one of the Literal verses. Please understand the difference. The God gives us the STORIES as life lessons so we can use the examples to find our way through this book(life).
See - the "miracles" that are described in the Quran are described to us in literal ways - you may see the symbolic idea in them - good for you - but you have not proven or even come close to showing that they are not within God's system.
The so called "miracles" are all part of STORIES of the Prophets and messengers, the Big Bang is not.
(2434) And We had descended to you clear signs , and a similitude/Symbolism (mathalan) from those who past/expired from before you, and an advice/warning to the fearing and obeying.
The above states that what we get from the "stories of the past" is in the form of SIMILITUDE(SYMBOLISM).
In fact the mere mentioning of these stories within God's Quran - the expounding of God's System shows plainly that these events are within God's System. The fact they occurred only once (or limited number of times) is not a valid argument against it - the fact you will not witness a similar event is also not a valid argument.
But you see, I do not need a valid argument against it, the God has given me a VALDI ARGUMENT not to even go near that type of understanding which I have NO KNOWLEDGE OF. Reading it in a book called "Quran" does not make it TRUE. VERIFICATION makes things true. That is why the God , after telling us not to pursue that which we have no knowledge, states that the eyes and hearing and intelligence will be held accountable.
Again, it is not possible for me to PROVE that such events did not happen literally, just the same way than no one can PROVE they did, but since this is the UNKNOWN (Not same as UNSEEN), we do not even need to follow that path.
I am sure we all agree that following the LESSONS of these SYMBOLIC STORIES is beneficial and can bring numerous verifications from our lives. That is the KNOWING. D
In the laws of thermodynamics there is no impediment to the possibility of a broken glass rearranging itself spontaneously and landing back up on the table it fell from. Nothing at all - the laws are clear - it is within God's System. It is within the part of God's System that we are able to study and know - to mention nothing of what we do not know.
Did you just say that a glass fell off a table, broke in pieces, then by itself, jumped back up on the table and came back together? Is that what you said? Please give me all information you have on that experiment, do not hold back any of this evidence.
Therefore I urge you to continue your pursuit of deeper symbolic/spiritual meanings but do not sell your arguments for more than what they are - they are your personal spiritual observations.
I am not sellng anything, only delivering my debate as instructed by my Lord. I do not force my understanding on anyone, but I will militantly present this arguement so that we can all witness if it will stand of fall. I will not keep in in the shadows. I will bring it to the forefront and sit it right on the table under the spotlight for all to inspect so there can be no doubt. And if there is something that truns out to be wrong, then I will make the proper adjustments and continue to follow the Qibla designated by or Lord.
So far, I have not seen eany evidence that my position is incorrect. If you can show me soem evidence frm teh STORIES, not the literal verses, then we can continue to debate. Or if you can provide the experiment where the glass broke then came back together without any other forces but itself, then we can talk more about that also.
God is greater and encompasses the System from without and within. He controls everything and there is none like Him.
I do not doubt that at all.
Please do not let your pride in your intellectual/spiritual pursuits override the reality that only God encompasses the System - and there is much more to it than what you will ever observe.
Agreed, and I will contiue to wait on evidence that what I have stated is incorrect.
Keep an eye on that stick though
Why? D
Bruce Lee (while pionting to the Heavens) "Do not concentrate on the finger or you will MISS all of the Heavenly Glory!"
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Peace be upon you Elena,
Peace be upon you Idolfree,
what more similarities are there between the story of Ausar and the texts called Bible and "Quran", please?
These are in many levels. I will try to give some as they come along. Also, you might be able to find good info on internet search. Just remember that many call Ausar (Osirus).
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Peace be upon you Elena,
I just did a quick search and found this site which should be helpful to you, I have not read it yet.
http//www.egypt-tehuti.org/articles/egypt-bible-similarities.html
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Peace Kyle,
Here we go again...
To see if i've understood you right, lmk if you primarily base your opinion on this amongst others
The above states that what we get from the "stories of the past" is in the form of SIMILITUDE(SYMBOLISM).
A question, can mathalan not mean example? Can we not learn from the example of a human who lived before us and/or a human who lives among us? There is a difference in example, allegory, parable and the rest of the group, is there not? This meaning of example would then be further refined by the context of the verse.
Nadia
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Peace be upon you Savage Carrot,
A question, can mathalan not mean example?
Why would you change the meaning for this one verse? What does this word mean ALL THROUGHOUT this reading(quran)?
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Peace Kyle,
Do we not agree the meaning is based on the context of the verses? Can example not do throughout, being further refined by the context of the verses?
Nadia
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The God's signs are ongoing, they do not stop. Are there still seas spiltting and sticks turning into snakes LITERALLY?
Do you want to believe literally or that that your knowledge is incapable of reaching - in other word the unseen? This is what the reading reminds you of.
Yet there are still people using debates of truth to eat up all falsehoods, there are still people making there way through unstabable socieities/governments (sea was split into two "mountains").
The whole world was against strike on Iraq, including the chief inspector Hans Blix and the UN. They all spoke the truth of "no war" against the faslehood and the pretexts of bush and blair. The truth was eatenup by the pharoas. Nearly one and half decade of debates to uphold the truth was defeated by arrogance. The similitude of what you say does not exist, world wide.
Do you mean to say the two mountains to be understood as one being bad and the other good? What is that you want to convey about the state before its split. Mutual co-existence? If so, why should it divide now?
So the God IS brining forth His argument at all times, but some are waiting to see the actual stick to change into a snake literally.
The reading is based on the truth, the belief in the unseen, yet to be revealed as wisdom against the knowing process - the debate with the existing knowledge.
Bruce Lee once said while pointing to the sky "don't concentrate on the finger or you will miss all of that heavenly glory". These stories are POINTING us to a certain REALITY, one that can be VERIFIED so we can know it is TRUTH, not so we can have doubt and say "MAYBE it will literally happen in the future", even though no one living can attest to such an event.
Finger is the knowledge and glory is the truth; knowledge is similitude whereas the wisdom is the truthand heavenly glory.
Yes, we cannot denounce thier dreams, but we CERTAINLY do not blindly accept them, thats the point.
Dream is surely blind to the eyes but not to the insight. Insight cannot be experimented literally/laboratory means to believe through the eyes. Your point suffers there.
Yes, the instruction is to have faith in the Unseen, NOT the unknown. Thats what you are missing.
You see through your literal eyes only what you know in the literal mind; if you want to believe in the 'unseen' you must believe what your mind does not know, i.e. the unknown. Still am i missing ? what is your say?
Give me one good reason why I should have faith that a stick has/will be turned into a LITERAL snake.
To improve your faith in the unseen and unknown; and to discard the "believing literally/symbolically"
The problem is I say from the stand point of believing in the wisdom when you counter me with knowledge, i.e. from the level of present understanding
Give me a break. Are you trying to tell us here that the information you are writing is some divine wisdom, while anyone who disagrees with you is only presenting wordly knowledge? Lets remain balanced and continue logical debate. I would like you to provide evidence, not hearsay.
The Reading is not hearsay for your information. And iam talking to you alone beacuse I am replying to your points. Others may be reading and watching this. That does not mean you shall include them on your side when you say "Are you trying to tell us?"
I am not saying anything about any one disagreeing with me or agreeing with me. When you say " Lets remain balanced and continue logical debate ", I will not ask you back, ' if iam illogical?' BTW, You need an evidence that has no proof. Here it is "the dream". None can give you evidence about the dream as a proof. But you have to believe in the unseen and unknown.
KNOWLEDGE does not evolve, theories evolve. Knowledge is KNOWING. Belief is what evolves until it reaches KNOWING (Knowledge), that is why the God says for us to say "My Lord, increase my KNOWLEDGE/KNOWING" He wants us to get out of mere believing which can be blind faith. He wanst us to be like scientists and to KNOW!
If you say you are speaking theories/knowledge I fully agree. You say 'knwledge will not evolve'. But in your signature you say "O Lord increase me in my knowledge!" Why did not you say 'O Lord increase me in my knowing?' There is bracket there in your reply knowledge/(knowing). Now you have started a new topic
Has knowledge evolved into knowing or knowing has evolved into knowledge?
- knowledge is knowing
- knowing is knowledge
- knowledge is not knowing
- knowing is not knowledge
We will take any of these 4 until we are settled about what is what?
He has told us to HAVE FAITH in the UNSEEN, just like you have faith in WIND. Do you see the difference?
Wind is 'seen' not unseen.
WHAT???? shockUnseen will be 'shock'ing, until the wisdom dawns upon.
Unseen means that which is not even felt
No brother, that would be NOT FELT.
tasted
That would be NOT TASTED."Unseen" not involves your eyes alone. The word means "that you do not know of your knowledge". Do not believe the 'ears' beacuse what you hear is nothing but hearsay except that is spoken to you in your mind when you ponder over. What you feel through your skin is tangible and the wind is part of it. All tangible is seen and all that in intangible is unseen is what we should imbibe. this is wisdom, ie. total belief in the "intangible unseen". Our knowledge is audo-visual which involves tangibility to the eyes and ears in "functional sense".
What is seeing? Seeing the shape and size of an object. Matereal of an object does not enter our eyes but the image of it. Only the source of the image we can feel but not the image as it enters our pupils When we see the intangible image is in our mind not the object. And we also get the truth that only the image of the objects triggers the thought process, never do the objects. This divulges the fact that the eyes have no value over the inner sensibilities. Like wise, the sensibilities of hearing shall become alive when you hear from a tangible source. Smell and taste like wise.
Now the biggest visible source is the skin. The skin is the only source that reflects our sensitivity and sensibility as the reality descends upon our hear as revelation. Even the hairs on the skin stand straight as the truth descend upon us. The skin feels both ways, ie. it feels the tangible wind from the source external to us too. Feeling through the five special sense of our body is always from a source. Like we feel the smell from a source, say a flower. We feel the hearing from a source; taste like wise from a food source. The wind is from a source like wise; the knowledge is so poor that we have not yet identified, the relatively tangible source in the atmosphere through the literal eyes.
When Allah says "You can never see Me!" it does not mean we can touch Him; smell Him; taste Him. The word "Unseen" is an example, given for the sensible application of mind so as not to include any of the senses of man given to him 'which only feels' the external sources. The Unseen is what you are revealed from inside as Allah speaks; that as you feel the nearness of Him, your fear and worry vanishes from your heart; that you get cured from your diseases and successfully come out of the adversities through the strength of invisible faith and belief unseen and unheard of; that too when all the external, including human sources of help have been exhausted and all doors are closed for you in this world.
Thus the unseen is not image oriented but also feeling oriented if you apply your mind.
We can enter into a separate discussion if you feel you want further information on this.
idolfree I was told a LIE in school that Christopher Columbus discovered America, should I just believe in that UNSEEN statement? NO!
Columbus whether he discovered or not, "the land" called america was existing already. Columbus was 'late' seer. I will never believe any one having ever invented anything, for it was there before invention.
I am glad that you are aware that he did not discover America, I hope that you can bring that clear understanding to this debate.
For once you have understood my awareness. I am glad too.
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What if the changing of sticks into snakes is within the system? Can you prove it is not?
No, but what you should be asking is why would I need to prove something I have no knowledge of? The God told me not to pursue that, so how would I look trying to prove that is doesn't happen? My argument is that we have no knowledge that these things happen...
Au contraire... are you denying that you have been given knowledge of it through the great reading? That it has an existence? I think you are selectively defining symbolism according to your tastes.
There is no harm in positive and beneficial symbolism that may show us deeper or higher moral lessons. However you must not sever what God has declared to be joined (227). You cannot have the symbolism without the reality. The intangible taste of the cake cannot be enjoyed unless the physical matter is in one's mouth.
I want to draw your attention to the event of the 'big-bang' or the initiation of the universe. It is an event that for us occurred ONCE.
It has not repeated itself - and none of us did witness it - nor will we witness another event like it in our lifetimes. Does that mean that it never occurred? Because it happenned ONCE only does that invalidate it as being a part of God's system?
No, it did occur and we are told about it and all science points to it. Yet it is not part of a SYMBOLIC STORY. That is one of the Literal verses. Please understand the difference. The God gives us the STORIES as life lessons so we can use the examples to find our way through this book(life).
I had not referred to this in the context of a verse - however I will demonstrate why your arguments are largely arbitrary in the next section.
But while we are still on the big-bang I do not share your lack of enthusiasm as it relates to symbolism. As the initial great event it represents a moment that is profound as far as God's power goes.
It is the initial cause for the universe and ultimately our own selves, initiated by the One who is uncaused. I see in it the symbolism related to the spreading of truth - the spread and expansion of the universe is akin to the inevitable spread of the truth of God.
See - the "miracles" that are described in the Quran are described to us in literal ways - you may see the symbolic idea in them - good for you - but you have not proven or even come close to showing that they are not within God's system.
The so called "miracles" are all part of STORIES of the Prophets and messengers, the Big Bang is not.
In actual fact the symbolism is much deeper than the stories of prophets and messengers.
4111 Then He turned to the sky, when it was still gas, and said to it, and to the earth, "Come both of you together, willingly or unwillingly." They said, "We come willingly."
Is this reality or symbolism? Do the earth and firmament really speak words like this nowadays?
There is a reality in this verse insofar as the sky and earth have indeed come together and stay together willingly - but there is also a deeper symbolism unrelated to the story of a prophet or messenger. It demonstrates the futility of resisting God - whether one is willing or unwilling all matters are finalised by Him.
The truth is to always come willingly - to hear and to obey - to submit - to believe and then to be inspired.
Peace.
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Peace be upon you Nadia,
Do we not agree the meaning is based on the context of the verses? Can example not do throughout, being further refined by the context of the verses?
They actually are examples, but the question is are the LITERAL examples, or Symbolic(similitude)? If it is a LITERAL example, lets say, that when one is being chased(oppressed) by a "firaun" and one reaches a sea, that one should take a stick and touch the sea and should expect the sea to spilt? How often do you expect that type ofGUIDANCE to be needed?
EVERYDAY we need people who are capable of crossing the unstable sea by creating a stable path by using the God's philosophy.
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Peace be upon you Brother Fazl,
idolfree1 wrote
The God's signs are ongoing, they do not stop. Are there still seas spiltting and sticks turning into snakes LITERALLY?Do you want to believe literally or that that your knowledge is incapable of reaching - in other word the unseen? This is what the reading reminds you of.
Its not a matter of if I WANT TO believe literally, it is not LOGICAL to believe such stories as literal because we have no knowledge of such events happening literally and we are not told CLEARLYthat they are literal stories, INSTEAD we are told that the God does NOT shy from similitudes, WHY are we told that? Because so many people DEPEND on this physical illusion, and they NEED these events to be true, but when you rise to the hieghts and start to think more abstractly (this is needed to understand ONENESS), you can see CLEARLY the wisdom in this similitudes. It is the right side of the brain that brings things together and scientists have "discovered" that pictures and metaphorical stories are recieved by this part of the brain and it is easier to digest and remember. So YES, visualize these events as they are recited, but KNOW what these SIGNS, or we can say SYMBOLS are POINTING TO. D
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Yet there are still people using debates of truth to eat up all falsehoods, there are still people making there way through unstabable socieities/governments (sea was split into two "mountains").The whole world was against strike on Iraq, including the chief inspector Hans Blix and the UN. They all spoke the truth of "no war" against the faslehood and the pretexts of bush and blair. The truth was eatenup by the pharoas. Nearly one and half decade of debates to uphold the truth was defeated by arrogance. The similitude of what you say does not exist, world wide.
Perhaps you need to clarify what part of the story you are witnessing. Did not "firaun" do great damage before he drowned in the sea(unstable society)? Certainly you don't equate John Kerry as Musa, do you? You end your statement with "world wide" as if the same event is suppossed to be going on at the same time. How man "Firauns" were being drowned in the time of Musa? The whole world? How do you reason that?
What about the Africans sold into slavery? Did they not "cross the sea"? And the Jews from hitler? Weren't they greater atrocities than the present, and the people "crossed the sea"? What about the girl who grows up getting molested but is able to maintain her mind state and grows up to be successful and justice comes to the molester? Did she not "cross the sea"? You say I should have patience to see these events literally, I say you should have patience to see these events unfolding in front of your eyes. The Guidance is for our spiritual cultivation RIGHT NOW, the signs are from the horizons to within your minds(nafs).
Do you mean to say the two mountains to be understood as one being bad and the other good? What is that you want to convey about the state before its split. Mutual co-existence? If so, why should it divide now?
I am saying clearly that large bodies of water represnet unstable societies. Musa touched the sea with his stick, that which he leaned on and directed his flock with(the philosophy of Monotheism), and it SPILT into two "MOUNTAINS". Mountains represent stability, they stabilize the Earth, and they symbolize governments(that which is menat to stabalize a community). Remember when Noah built the STABLE ark becuase the UNSTABLE flood was coming to drown everyone? His son said;
(1143) He said, "I will take shelter/refuge to a mountain (that) protects/shelters me from the water." He said "(There is) no protector/shelterer today, from The God's order/command except who He had mercy upon." And the waves/surges came in between/intervened between them (B), so he was from drowned/sunken.
Isnt it true that the "red states" in america have followed the path of Noah's son? Haven't they taken refuge to some GOVERNMENT which will not be able to help them against the flood (Unstable society runing rampant) that is fast approaching?
But you can continue your path of waiting for these events to happen again just like others are waiting for thier "messiahs" to return, I am walking the CLEAR PATH of KNOWING, peacefully, cause that is the protection. D
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So the God IS brining forth His argument at all times, but some are waiting to see the actual stick to change into a snake literally.The reading is based on the truth, the belief in the unseen, yet to be revealed as wisdom against the knowing process - the debate with the existing knowledge.
I don't know what you mean, could you be more clear, give some verses, and relate this to everyday life please?
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Bruce Lee once said while pointing to the sky "don't concentrate on the finger or you will miss all of that heavenly glory". These stories are POINTING us to a certain REALITY, one that can be VERIFIED so we can know it is TRUTH, not so we can have doubt and say "MAYBE it will literally happen in the future", even though no one living can attest to such an event.Finger is the knowledge and glory is the truth; knowledge is similitude whereas the wisdom is the truthand heavenly glory.
Yes, knowledge points you to wisdom, thats correct.
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Yes, we cannot denounce thier dreams, but we CERTAINLY do not blindly accept them, thats the point.Dream is surely blind to the eyes but not to the insight. Insight cannot be experimented literally/laboratory means to believe through the eyes. Your point suffers there.
The key word being "inSIGHT". You KNOW it when you SEE it.
So is your argument that Musa had a DREAM that he threw a stick and it became active?
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Yes, the instruction is to have faith in the Unseen, NOT the unknown. Thats what you are missing.You see through your literal eyes only what you know in the literal mind
That is your assumption, which is clearly wrong.
; if you want to believe in the 'unseen' you must believe what your mind does not know, i.e. the unknown. Still am i missing ? what is your say?
If you are saying that one can "believe" something that what does not KNOW(have knowledge about), then YES, you are still missing. Do you believe in "iutidkowhdpid"? Of course not, how could you believe in something you don't have knowledge of? It is said that Jesus is coming back to kill the pigs and break crosses, are you saying we should "believe" what we have no knowledge of?
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Give me one good reason why I should have faith that a stick has/will be turned into a LITERAL snake.To improve your faith in the unseen and unknown; and to discard the "believing literally/symbolically"
No, so I can be a slave, no thanks.
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The problem is I say from the stand point of believing in the wisdom when you counter me with knowledge, i.e. from the level of present understandingGive me a break. Are you trying to tell us here that the information you are writing is some divine wisdom, while anyone who disagrees with you is only presenting wordly knowledge? Lets remain balanced and continue logical debate. I would like you to provide evidence, not hearsay.
The Reading is not hearsay for your information
What do you mean this reading(quran) is not hearsay? EVERYTHING is hearsay until you VERIFY it as TRUTH? Didn't the God tell you to look for contradictions so you can know if a reading is from the God or not? You mean to tell me that someone just gave you a book and said that it was from some "object" called "God" and you just believed it? What was the DISTIGUISHING FACTOR from you "believing" in THIS reading(quran) as oppossed to another like the Bible, or the Book of Scientology, or The Hindu books, etc? Please answer.
. And iam talking to you alone beacuse I am replying to your points. Others may be reading and watching this. That does not mean you shall include them on your side when you say "Are you trying to tell us?"
I practice the thought of ONENESS, so I include YOU in "US" as well.
I am not saying anything about any one disagreeing with me or agreeing with me. When you say " Lets remain balanced and continue logical debate ", I will not ask you back, ' if iam illogical?' BTW, You need an evidence that has no proof. Here it is "the dream". None can give you evidence about the dream as a proof. But you have to believe in the unseen and unknown.
A dream is SEEN with INSIGHT. And it is this INSIGHT that is required to see the SYMBOLISMS. The God tells us that it is not the blindness of the eye, but the blindness of the heart that is the problem. We can all see clearly that these STORIES are going on everyday. But we do not have the INSIGHT that allows us to see that these events are not literal, but symbolic.
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KNOWLEDGE does not evolve, theories evolve. Knowledge is KNOWING. Belief is what evolves until it reaches KNOWING (Knowledge), that is why the God says for us to say "My Lord, increase my KNOWLEDGE/KNOWING" He wants us to get out of mere believing which can be blind faith. He wanst us to be like scientists and to KNOW!If you say you are speaking theories/knowledge I fully agree.
Then you do not agree because theories(guessing) is not equal to knowledge(truth).
You say 'knwledge will not evolve'. But in your signature you say "O Lord increase me in my knowledge!" Why did not you say 'O Lord increase me in my knowing?' There is bracket there in your reply knowledge/(knowing).
We say , "My Lord, increase my knowledge/knowing" so that we can continue to KNOW MORE AND MORE THINGS! If you have one coin, and you ask your boss for an increase in coins, do the coins in your pocket EVOLVE? Or Do you get more coins? Please be patient brother so that you can understand me clearly.
Now you have started a new topic
We have already clarified this above, but I will answer the questions for clarity.
Has knowledge evolved into knowing or knowing has evolved into knowledge?
Knowledge IS knowing. D
- knowledge is knowing
- knowing is knowledge
- knowledge is not knowing
- knowing is not knowledge
We will take any of these 4 until we are settled about what is what?
I pick both 1 & 2.
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He has told us to HAVE FAITH in the UNSEEN, just like you have faith in WIND. Do you see the difference?
Wind is 'seen' not unseen.
WHAT????Unseen will be 'shock'ing, until the wisdom dawns upon.
Ok.
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Unseen means that which is not even felt
No brother, that would be NOT FELT.
tasted
That would be NOT TASTED."Unseen" not involves your eyes alone.
Correct, but it certainly does not involve hearing, tasting, feeling as you tried to imply.
The word means "that you do not know of your knowledge". Do not believe the 'ears' beacuse what you hear is nothing but hearsay except that is spoken to you in your mind when you ponder over. What you feel through your skin is tangible and the wind is part of it. All tangible is seen and all that in intangible is unseen is what we should imbibe. this is wisdom, ie. total belief in the "intangible unseen". Our knowledge is audo-visual which involves tangibility to the eyes and ears in "functional sense".
What is seeing? Seeing the shape and size of an object. Matereal of an object does not enter our eyes but the image of it. Only the source of the image we can feel but not the image as it enters our pupils When we see the intangible image is in our mind not the object. And we also get the truth that only the image of the objects triggers the thought process, never do the objects. This divulges the fact that the eyes have no value over the inner sensibilities. Like wise, the sensibilities of hearing shall become alive when you hear from a tangible source. Smell and taste like wise.
Why did you say all of the above?
Now the biggest visible source is the skin. The skin is the only source that reflects our sensitivity and sensibility as the reality descends upon our hear as revelation. Even the hairs on the skin stand straight as the truth descend upon us. The skin feels both ways, ie. it feels the tangible wind from the source external to us too. Feeling through the five special sense of our body is always from a source. Like we feel the smell from a source, say a flower. We feel the hearing from a source; taste like wise from a food source. The wind is from a source like wise; the knowledge is so poor that we have not yet identified, the relatively tangible source in the atmosphere through the literal eyes.
When Allah says "You can never see Me!" it does not mean we can touch Him; smell Him; taste Him. The word "Unseen" is an example, given for the sensible application of mind so as not to include any of the senses of man given to him 'which only feels' the external sources. The Unseen is what you are revealed from inside as Allah speaks; that as you feel the nearness of Him, your fear and worry vanishes from your heart; that you get cured from your diseases and successfully come out of the adversities through the strength of invisible faith and belief unseen and unheard of; that too when all the external, including human sources of help have been exhausted and all doors are closed for you in this world.
Thus the unseen is not image oriented but also feeling oriented if you apply your mind.
We can enter into a separate discussion if you feel you want further information on this.
Yes, please start a thread so no one if confused.
idolfree I was told a LIE in school that Christopher Columbus discovered America, should I just believe in that UNSEEN statement? NO!
Columbus whether he discovered or not, "the land" called america was existing already. Columbus was 'late' seer. I will never believe any one having ever invented anything, for it was there before invention.
I am glad that you are aware that he did not discover America, I hope that you can bring that clear understanding to this debate.
For once you have understood my awareness. I am glad too.
D Peace.
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Peace be upon you Truth,
No, but what you should be asking is why would I need to prove something I have no knowledge of? The God told me not to pursue that, so how would I look trying to prove that is doesn't happen? My argument is that we have no knowledge that these things happen...
Au contraire... are you denying that you have been given knowledge of it through the great reading?
Knowledge of what? Seas splitting? Sticks turning into snakes? Please clarify the question.
That it has an existence? I think you are selectively defining symbolism according to your tastes.
That what has an exsistence? I cannot answer these questins because it is not clear to me what you are asking. Please clarify. Give me clear examples of how I am being selective.
There is no harm in positive and beneficial symbolism that may show us deeper or higher moral lessons. However you must not sever what God has declared to be joined (227). You cannot have the symbolism without the reality. The intangible taste of the cake cannot be enjoyed unless the physical matter is in one's mouth.
You said "you cannot have the symbolism without the reality". I will ask you , don't we have real seas, sticks, snakes, mountains, birds, pigs, etc?
Exactly what "reality" is missing? It is the EVENT that we place these symbolisms on so we can understand what is going on NOW.
The so called "miracles" are all part of STORIES of the Prophets and messengers, the Big Bang is not.
In actual fact the symbolism is much deeper than the stories of prophets and messengers.
4111 Then He turned to the sky, when it was still gas, and said to it, and to the earth, "Come both of you together, willingly or unwillingly." They said, "We come willingly."
Is this reality or symbolism? Do the earth and firmament really speak words like this nowadays?
There is a reality in this verse insofar as the sky and earth have indeed come together and stay together willingly - but there is also a deeper symbolism unrelated to the story of a prophet or messenger. It demonstrates the futility of resisting God - whether one is willing or unwilling all matters are finalised by Him.
Yes, you are correct, which means that it is not just the stories of the prophets that are allegorical, thank you for the clarification.
Now that we have seen yet another instance of metaphor/similitude/allegory/symbolism etc. Will you still reject that the stories are also symbolic?