Spiritual stories and Symbolism

[unknownuser]

Peace be upon you Mr Fazl,

So you have half heartedly just glanced "The Reading" as if it were written by some tom, dick and harry.

Nonsense.

skipped parts that I do not wish to keep repeating

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It is the right side of the brain that brings things together and scientists have "discovered" that pictures and metaphorical stories are recieved by this part of the brain and it is easier to digest and remember.

These brainless scientists/idiots have never ever proved making any of their medical theories/symbolism/research a reality. None of these medical morons ever improved the memories and the digestion of realities in actual life. Digestion of truth and imbibing the reality is not in the brain at all, for brain is such a dunce. It is in the heart where you remember, recite and it is the heart that gives induction into life not the brains as these mental imbeciles called neurophysicians say.

The medical profession verifies many facts because they are GREAT at EXTERNAL thinking, but they cannot apply them because they are not WHOLISTIC. They love to tear apart and undeerstand, but not put back together. Thus you have to go to a SEPERATE doctor for each part of your body. A better way to say it is they have KNOWELDGE, but no WISDOM, or at leats they are only sharing the wisdom with a few who use it for EVIL.

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So YES, visualize these events as they are recited, but KNOW what these SIGNS, or we can say SYMBOLS are POINTING TO.

Events are recited and the recited events are enough visual reality and clear signs themselves. What is that then the visualzation you speak about? Severe yourself from the reality and clear signs and enter the falsehood allegories?

Please say again, I could noy understand you.

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What about the Africans sold into slavery? Did they not "cross the sea"? And the Jews from hitler? Weren't they greater atrocities than the present, and the people "crossed the sea"?

Now do you believe the above "crossing the sea" as "visual reality" or you want to cross away from the reality and believe only in the illusion, the symbolism?

I have faith that it was a true event. I do not KNOW because I did not SEE it, but I have FAITH that it happened because hese things CONTINUE TO HAPPEN. Sudan would be an example. Are you saying that the AFricans had a leader who went to a PHYSICAL SEA and spit it into two mountains? Is that what you are saying? How about the Jews? Did someone come to Hitler and throw a stick and make it turn into a snake literally? Please tell me.

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I am saying clearly that large bodies of water represnet unstable societies. Musa touched the sea with his stick, that which he leaned on and directed his flock with(the philosophy of Monotheism), and it SPILT into two "MOUNTAINS". Mountains represent stability,

Utter confusion as you try to answer the questions below

I have not answered them yet, but you have already stated "utter confusion". You are blind before you even start to read. Ihope you wil have patience as you read my responses.

If mountains represent stability, why should a stable mountain being split in to two then?

The mountain was not split in two, the SEA was split in two, please re read the story.

Large bodies of water split into two mountains-like by Musa? why?

Because large bodies of water represnt unstableness. Go to the beach and walk into the water, see how the waves push you around and beat you on your back and sides. Observe as you fall in the water and stand up spitting sea water out of your mouth. It is UNSTABLE. You you go back to dry land and regain your stability. So if you want to cross the sea, you must create a DRY PATH (stability) with which to cross through. Think of the story of Noah, didn't he build a stable boat so he could ride out he flood(large water)? Think of Jonah, wasnt he riding in the large fish in the large body of water, and after he turned to the God , was put on DRY LAND(stability)? Is this clear? Do you see how the God confirms these symbolisms so they cannot just be arbitrary? There is no confusion on my part.

What is the symbolism of Musa?

You can think of Musa as the CONSCIOUSNESS that comes to understand the laws and leads its thoughts (children of Isreal) on a journey through this unstable environment. But als realize that one must stay VIGILANT with thier thoughts, because as soon as consciousness leaves the thoughts, they go back to thier old ways. The above explanation of Musa I do not claim to be 100% on point,but this gives you an idea of my understanding.

You say as a whole the 'body' of water is unstable or the mountainous society as a whole is unstable

No, I did not say that, I said large bodies of water represent unstableness, therefore unstable society is understood from it. And mountains represent that which is MEANT TO stabilize. I say MEANT TO, because we don't have an example of a government that is stabilizing the people as it should. Please continue.

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In such a case what does he gain by splitting it?

I explained above, I hope you see your error.

Liquid unstable society is turned into rigid stable two mountains like governments is what you say? If all people are turned into two goverments where are the liquid people then ?

Are you purposely not trying to see what I am sayinig? Liquid people? Where did you get that?

Understanding coes from OBSERVATION OF THE PAIRS. To understand temperature you have to understand hot and cold. Do we learn lessons from the battle of one government against the other? Do we not get many lessons from the battle of U.S. and Iraq? I hope that you can make the connections. I hope that you are making your way through all of this,not getting drowned by either side.

[savage_carrot]

Peace bro Kyle,

Let me say this again clearly first before I start responding. As I have said MANY TIMES, there is no possible way that ANY OF US can know if these events happenned literally or not. I will say that again, there is NO POSSIBLE WAY that ANY OF US can know if these events happenned or not. Do you agree to that?

And as i've said many times before, why insist they never did and it's purely symbolic? God tells us they happened, God is enough for a witness...have faith in the reading...

The next step then is to look at the insturction that states that we do NOT pursue that which we have no knowledge of, that which we don't KNOW(cannot prove).

What knowledge have you that ALL of this reading is from God? Have you personally verified all of it? Can it be proved beyond a shadow of a doubt? Brother if it could have been something that is as sure as that, we would have no atheists today...u apparently think faith is another name for seeing something then believing in it...please explain to me your definition of faith... Do we go down the vicious circle of first we must verify the ALL of the reading then we believe in it?? How do you verify that some will go to hell and some to heaven after death?

So when we read theses stories, should we pursue the direction that these events DID happen, based on blind faith?

God tells us they did in no uncertain terms...if you don't want to take God's word for it, it's your choice really.

Or should we envision these stories in our minds and by those VISIONS (which are easily REMEMBERED) relate the LESSONS to our lives? What I am arguing is that one way is useless and against the instuctions of the God, and the other is Logical and agrees with the God's instructions. Lets continue and look at the verses you gave.

How is believing that they actually happened and learning from their example against the instructions of God? Are you telling me that God's instructions tell us not to take His word for a fact?

Yes, stories of the unseen, meaning stories you DID NOT WITNESS. You can only KNOW that which you See/Experience. Do you think that you will eventually SEE these stories Literally? Then how will they remain as "UNSEEN"?

SO? God already tells us that we did not witness them...thats why He is telling us about them so that we hear about them and learn from the actual event...what IS your point here?

12.102
Such is one of the stories of what happened unseen, which We reveal by inspiration unto thee; nor wast thou (present) with them then when they concerted their plans together in the process of weaving their plots.

Yes, here is what I was just explaining, YOU WERE NOT PRESENT.

Er, did you perhaps read on? God is telling us something we did NOT witness...

12111. In their stories is a lesson for the people of intelligence. It was not a narration that was invented, but an authentication of what is already present and a detailing of all things, and a guidance and mercy to a people who believe.

Yes, in thier stories is a LESSON! No, it is not invented because these CONCEPTS that the stories symbolize are very real REALITIES.

In their stories is an example...it is not an invented narration, meaning God did not make up these stories without a real example of it actually happening in reality...meaning like in brother truth's post, symbolism does not exist without the reality. Truth on all levels...made up stories are NOT truth on ALL levels.

2099
Thus do We relate to you (some) of the news of what has gone before; and indeed We have given to you a Reminder from Ourselves.

Yes, these stories happen over and over again. They are a reminder so we can apply the LESSONS and do not make the same mistakes.

News of what has gone before? Brother are you not paying attention to the verses? God is telling us about what happened in history before us, so that we learn from their example...no doubt they happen again and again, but these stories are based in reality and real history...

2344
Then We sent Our messengers one after another; whenever there came to a people their messenger, they called him a liar, so We made some of them follow others and We made them stories; so away with a people who do not believe!

Again, all of these events CONTINUE to happen. A story was made from these CONTINUING EVENTS of life to instruct. But the inner proccesses involved were PERSONIFIED to allow better rememberance of the story, therefore the lesson.

Eh? Mystical man on the mountain talk? It's a simple verse...God made these people examples...

Sticks into snakes and seas splitting seems literal to you? How so? People riding around in Whales and people magically healing the blind seems literal to you?

Sure, whatever is written in God's book apparently is what it is....far be it from me to twist it around to suit what i think is common sense today or what i think it says instead of what it ACTUALLY says...and risk overlooking the fundamental truth on ALL levels.

Yes, I agree, these events ALWAYS happen, and they HAVE been made into a story, but the EVENTS of the story contain SYMBOLISM, clearly.

Indeed? Have i ever and i mean ever disagreed with the notion that they contain symbolism? There is no reason why the actual event did not take place in history.

Yes, the God is certainly enough for a witness. But to leave it at that would be to only follow a portion of the book, when we are to follow the WHOLE(Oneness). The God says not to pursue that which you have no knowledge of. You have no knowledge of those "miracles".

Excuse me? Only a portion of the book? Yes we are to follow the whole...meaning truth on ALL levels indeed...I have knowledge of these SIGNS...God told us in the reading.

Further, you say the God is enough of a witness, but how do you know this is from the God? How? Did you verify if it was from Him? The christians have a book that they also say you should just believe is from him and don't question anythin in it. Does the God suffice as a witness for that as well? You are using this term as a defense incorrectly. Please be patinet and listen towhat I am saying respected sister.

I call it faith respected brother, taking Gods word as truth. The reading is indeed truth. Truth on ALL levels...many times we have unearthed evidence that such and such community indeed got vanquished off the face of the earth in just a manner as was described in the reading...Just because it was discovered makes it literal and all the others which have not been discovered uptil now are symbolic apparently.....

How does one know it is Truth? By blind faith or by logical reason?

Either one of these options are not your relative 'symbolism' i'm sorry to say... )

They are conveyed to us in a manner that allows us to overlay these stories on ANY situation and be able to see the clear way through. The are not given to us so we might WAIT FOR A SAVIOR to spilt the sea or change sticks to snakes.

You are disputing that they ever took place literally in history...

That you cannot prove that this DID happen LITERALLY?

What are you on about? We have evidence of these cities that have been discovered...

You cant do it because these things DO NOT HAPPEN.

God tells us they did repeatedly.

They were not meant to be taken literally, only symbolic/allegorical/metaphorical, whichever of those words fits.

That's your opinion, it's not what the reading says....

If you have the lesson, why do you even care if it really happenned?

Look, i'm not the one who has an issue with it actually happening...that would be you! roll

So whay are you worrying about if it really happenned? Take the LESSON, and there is no LESSON if youtake the stories as literal.

Once again bro, i don't have an issue with it happening, i see it as truth on ALL levels and take the literal along with the symbolic...I don't insist on one way is the only right way.

If you take the story of a stick turning into a snake literal, then show me how good of a student you are and make a stick turn into a snake.

Brother, i take it as actually happening in history to one prophet of God called Moses...I ain't that person in that particular time in history thus what i must do is take the example and adjust it according to my relative circumstances as should any sane rational person...not to insist that God made up this story and it never really actually literally happened....

Nadia

[unknownuser]

Peace be upon you Mr Fazl,

idolfree1 wrote
You can continue your path of waiting for these events to happen again just like others are waiting for thier "messiahs" to return, I am walking the CLEAR PATH of KNOWING, peacefully, cause that is the protection.

Who said I am waiting for these events to happen again? Again your symbolic conjecture? None can boast his own path is clear guidance.

(1210 Say "This (is) my path I call to The God, on (an) evidence/clear sightedness, me and who followed me, and glory (to) The God, and I am not from the sharers/takers of partners (with God)."

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So the God IS brining forth His argument at all times, but some are waiting to see the actual stick to change into a snake literally.

Not just snakes. I am waiting for the event when even the mountains can be flown like cotton wool just by a wave of a command from inside the heart of a believer. I do not even need a stick or a finger to move to realize the unbelievable. Mashaallah!

Hmmmm, so it is not just snakes you are waiting for but mountains to be flown like cotton? But above you JUST SAID "Who said I am waiting for these events to happen again? Again your symbolic conjecture?"

Nope not conjecture, your actual words.

027.088
And you (O, free-minds!) see the mountains, you think them to be solid, and they shall pass away as the passing away of the cloud-- the handiwork of Allah Who has made every thing thoroughly; surely He is Aware of what you do.

The God is addressing Free -Minds forum? Not the humanity?

So do not conjecture. Believe as it is for the reality to happen as per your wish, through a mere command "Be!"

here is idolfree translation

My translation? Lets see what you have.

And you see the mountains/governments, you think them to be solid/powerful, and they shall pass away/change of governments as the passing away/changing of the cloud/dissolving-- the handiwork of Allah/symbolism Who has made everything thoroughly/imrpoving in knowing; surely He is Aware of what you do.

Please refrain from making statements/translations in my name.

I am sure you can see how the God is the true GOVERNMENT, not some president and senate, etc.

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So is your argument that Musa had a DREAM that he threw a stick and it became active?

No, it is not dream but real! Musa was spoken to, by Allah. HE asked musa to throw the stick/knowledge away when musa replied to Allah about the limited use/knowledge of the stick he had. Beyond the knowledge is the wisdom. So Allah asks musa to throw away the knowledge sothat the wisdom may enter his heart. "First sign of wisdom" to musa is the turning of his stick into terrifying snake as musa submissively threw away his knowledge. Surely, Allah bringsforth living from the dead! Then comes to musa the second sign from allah that removed his fear, as he was asked to catch the moving the deadly snake. Allah showed musa that "He bringsforth the dead from the living".

Later, when musa forgot the instruction given to him by Allah, 'His Wisdom' that he paved for his community to march past the sea by creating a dry path in the sea as firaun chases him and his community Since musa held on to his existing stick/knowledge, deprived him of the wisdom, pushing his back against the sea. Shaitan made musa forget Allah's sign that he should throw away the knowledge to open the sea of wisdom before him. At this point, the command from Allah comes to musa to throw the knowledge into sea by beating the sea with his stick thus making the knowledge drown into the water. There the sea water splits into two making the dry path in between. Thus, the greatest Sign thus far came to musa.

The stick of musa brings us the lesson that we bring alive what we imagine, dream, aspirations by His Leave. So fear Allah and Follow Allah.

Yes, you are getting close, but you are trying to fit your theory of "No knowledge" into the story. Let me give it a try,

Musa removed his shoes (not a physical journey) and spoke to the God. The God told him to throw his staff, thatwhich represented his old philosophy because it was STIFF /RIGID/NOT BENDING (rock heart). When Musa THREW his old phiosophy, the God made it active (not rigid/formable/active not passive). Once Musa controlling capability was purified (hand became white/very clean), he was able to pick up the NEW PHILOSOPHY and guide the children of israel (his own thoughts and the thoughts of his people). When they got to the Sea, Musa was not told to THROW this NEW PHILOSOPHY AWAY. NO! Why would the God correct it for him then tell him to do away with it? Do you see where you philosophy of no knowledge leads you? Please understand that THINKING is not KNOWING(Knowledge). Yes, if it was mere thinking that Musa had, I would agree with you,but Musa had KNOWLEDGE. So again, he was not told to THROW this Knowledge/new active philosophy in the water to be drowned, he was told

(2663) So We inspired to Musa that "SEPERATE( idrib) with your stick the sea/large body of water ." So it split open, so each part was as the the great huge mountain.

Do you see how well that fits brother Fazl? Why would the God tell you to seek increase in Knowledge(Ilm) just for you to throw it away? Knowledge and THINKING is not the same.

If you disagree, then it is your turn to throw wink

[unknownuser]

Peace be upon you respected sister Nadia,

I will try to cut out my statement as these posts are getting long D

And as i've said many times before, why insist they never did and it's purely symbolic? God tells us they happened, God is enough for a witness...have faith in the reading...

I do not INSIST it never happenned, please understand that, but it SOUNDS like it never happenned literally, and since the God told US ALL not to pursue that which we have no knowledge of, why should we pursue it? Do you have knowledge that sticks turn into snakes? Yes or no.

You are saying "just have faith in the reading", what do the christians say"just have faith that Jesus died for your sins". Please tell me the difference.

What knowledge have you that ALL of this reading is from God? Have you personally verified all of it? Can it be proved beyond a shadow of a doubt?

I have faith based on the information that i sin the reading. You are right, I am still verifying it. There are still parts I dont understand. So at this point I have FAITH it is from the God based on EVIDENCE, but I do not KNOW, not yet anyway. Faith is based on evidence, not just becausae someone brings you a message and says "believe".

Brother if it could have been something that is as sure as that, we would have no atheists today...u apparently think faith is another name for seeing something then believing in it...please explain to me your definition of faith

I just did above D

... Do we go down the vicious circle of first we must verify the ALL of the reading then we believe in it?? How do you verify that some will go to hell and some to heaven after death?

We verify piece by piece, that is why we recieve inspiration in STAGES.

God tells us they did in no uncertain terms...if you don't want to take God's word for it, it's your choice really.

Thank you.

How is believing that they actually happened and learning from their example against the instructions of God? Are you telling me that God's instructions tell us not to take His word for a fact?

I am telling you that unless you verify information, you don't even know its from the God. Didn't the God say to study for contradictions?

SO? God already tells us that we did not witness them...thats why He is telling us about them so that we hear about them and learn from the actual event...what IS your point here?

The point is that you only KNOW that which you SEE/EXPERIENCE. The God is saying you did not SEE the stories that He gave you , so don't make them literal, especially when the God tells you that He does not shy from allegory and that the stories are SYMBOLIC.

Yes, here is what I was just explaining, YOU WERE NOT PRESENT.

Er, did you perhaps read on? God is telling us something we did NOT witness...

Please be patient sister, it is right underneath your nose. Please do not go home and think "that Kyle is crazy", Go home and reflect on my argument. Please.

Yes, in thier stories is a LESSON! No, it is not invented because these CONCEPTS that the stories symbolize are very real REALITIES.

Yes, very real realities, like the enslavement of Africans and Jews, and the mismanagement of funds like the people of Shuiab, etc. Not realities of REAL STICKS turning into REAL SNAKES. Do you not see that ONE POSITION you can verify and one you cant? You can SEE/EXPERIENCE ne position and you cannot SEE/EXPERIENCE the other, do you see this?

In their stories is an example...it is not an invented narration, meaning God did not make up these stories without a real example of it actually happening in reality...meaning like in brother truth's post, symbolism does not exist without the reality. Truth on all levels...made up stories are NOT truth on ALL levels.

And I agree, sticks, seas, snakes, all these objects are real. Enslavement of people, mismanagement of resources, people taking a stand on truth, all these are real. But sticks turning into snakes LITERALLY is not real.

News of what has gone before? Brother are you not paying attention to the verses?

Yes, sister, I am. The news of what has gone before, and will continue to happen is that people HAVE and DO enslave others, people HAVE and DO mismanage resources, people HAVE and DO take a righteous stand. Yes, they ARE stories of what has gone before! D Just not "miracles" of what has gone before. Do you see the difference?

God is telling us about what happened in history before us, so that we learn from their example...no doubt they happen again and again, but these stories are based in reality and real history...

You have no knowledge of those LITERAL events, do not pursue that course.

Sure, whatever is written in God's book apparently is what it is....far be it from me to twist it around to suit what i think is common sense today or what i think it says instead of what it ACTUALLY says...and risk overlooking the fundamental truth on ALL levels.

Respected. You wait for the stick to turn into a snake. Be sure your gandparents never saw such a thing in thier lives. Nor thier grandparents.

I call it faith respected brother, taking Gods word as truth. The reading is indeed truth. Truth on ALL levels...many times we have unearthed evidence that such and such community indeed got vanquished off the face of the earth in just a manner as was described in the reading...Just because it was discovered makes it literal and all the others which have not been discovered uptil now are symbolic apparently.....

You mean to say that because you unearthed a previous civilization that this means that there was a man in that civilizatin that coud split seas? What acheological evidence have you unearhted that is being kept from the rest of us? Please share this convincing evidence.

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How does one know it is Truth? By blind faith or by logical reason?

Either one of these options are not your relative 'symbolism' i'm sorry to say...

That is your opinion, I am sorry you see it that way sister.

You are disputing that they ever took place literally in history...

I am disputing that it does not make sense to follow that path that it DID literally take place.

If millions of years from now one unearthed Mecca and found the black stone called Kabba, should they believe that all of the hadiths of Buckari were real? Should they just believe?

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That you cannot prove that this DID happen LITERALLY?

What are you on about? We have evidence of these cities that have been discovered...

Please elaborate on this evidence. Lets take one story and I want you to explain the archeological evidence to me and what it means to you.

Once again bro, i don't have an issue with it happening, i see it as truth on ALL levels and take the literal along with the symbolic...I don't insist on one way is the only right way.

These means that you are afriad to throw YOUR stick and let the God correct your position. You are straddling the fence. I have been there and this is no disrespect.

Brother, i take it as actually happening in history to one prophet of God called Moses...I ain't that person in that particular time in history thus what i must do is take the example and adjust it according to my relative circumstances as should any sane rational person...not to insist that God made up this story and it never really actually literally happened....

Does the God change his way of doing things? Why did the children of Isreal get help from a large sea to drown its oppressors, but the Africans and Jews had to find another way "through the sea"? Is that the SAME or DIFFERENT? Please answer.

[savage_carrot]

Peace bro Kyle,

I do not INSIST it never happenned, please understand that, but it SOUNDS like it never happenned literally,

Whichever way it 'sounds' like to you, is not the way it is written in the reading. This is your opinion...there is a difference in telling us your opinion and throwing it around like a cut and dried fact.

and since the God told US ALL not to pursue that which we have no knowledge of, why should we pursue it? Do you have knowledge that sticks turn into snakes? Yes or no.

I ask you once again, did God tell us that these events happened in the reading? A simple yes or no would do thank you! I have knowledge that moses' staff turned into a snake, the reading tells me so.

You are saying "just have faith in the reading", what do the christians say"just have faith that Jesus died for your sins". Please tell me the difference.

We are not talking about mistranslations or deliberate twisting and adding of words in any of God's books...we are talking about what is written and how we perceive it. Simple.

I have faith based on the information that i sin the reading. You are right, I am still verifying it. There are still parts I dont understand. So at this point I have FAITH it is from the God based on EVIDENCE, but I do not KNOW, not yet anyway. Faith is based on evidence, not just becausae someone brings you a message and says "believe".

If everybody would have faith based on evidence the world would be a different place with no atheists abounding...faith is something else, it's trust in God even though we do not have all the pieces of the puzzle yet and probably never in our lifetimes. By your quote above, you have partial faith in the reading as of now.

We verify piece by piece, that is why we recieve inspiration in STAGES.

Sure we receive inspiration in stages...but faith in God's books is required as per 2285

The Messenger believeth in what hath been revealed to him from his Lord, as do the men of faith. Each one (of them) believeth in Allah, His angels, His books, and His messengers. "We make no distinction (they say) between one and another of His messengers." And they say "We hear, and we obey (We seek) Thy forgiveness, our Lord, and to Thee is the end of all journeys."

I don't see the word partial faith in the books...do you?

I am telling you that unless you verify information, you don't even know its from the God. Didn't the God say to study for contradictions?

Brother, contradictions and mistranslations and all that stuff is a seperate issue from denying what IS written in the reading...

The point is that you only KNOW that which you SEE/EXPERIENCE. The God is saying you did not SEE the stories that He gave you , so don't make them literal, especially when the God tells you that He does not shy from allegory and that the stories are SYMBOLIC.

The point here is we know what we are inspired to know...secondly, are you telling me what God is saying? This is only your opinion, don't make it fact....God is saying in the reading as per the verses that we were not present then and He is giving us information regarding that time period. This is not my opinion, it's what the verses read as literally. He does not shy from allegory and/or examples...allegory is something that has two meanings, a literal and a symbolic meaning
http//athena.english.vt.edu/~baugh/bosch/R-A-Main.htm
and God tells us where He uses them...Did He give you leave to go off on a tangent in the reading to pick and choose allegories and examples by rendering them SOLELY symbolic wherever it suits your fancy?

Please be patient sister, it is right underneath your nose. Please do not go home and think "that Kyle is crazy", Go home and reflect on my argument. Please.

Er, bro, I am home...believe me, if I was working I wouldn't have the time to write you these posts...and if you were to reflect on my argument you would see that there are two sides to the coin. Two very valid sides and they are both a part of the whole.

Yes, very real realities, like the enslavement of Africans and Jews, and the mismanagement of funds like the people of Shuiab, etc. Not realities of REAL STICKS turning into REAL SNAKES. Do you not see that ONE POSITION you can verify and one you cant? You can SEE/EXPERIENCE ne position and you cannot SEE/EXPERIENCE the other, do you see this?

Once again, we learn from an example relatively to our situations...whats the problem then? Why deny that events did not happen when as you very eloquently say 'YOU WERE NOT PRESENT'...you have NO evidence for saying they did NOT happen and consequently disbelieveing the literal.

And I agree, sticks, seas, snakes, all these objects are real. Enslavement of people, mismanagement of resources, people taking a stand on truth, all these are real. But sticks turning into snakes LITERALLY is not real.

Once again "YOU WERE NOT PRESENT" when it did occur...your argument fails here. You have no evidence for saying it did NOT happen once or however many times the reading tells us it did.

Yes, sister, I am. The news of what has gone before, and will continue to happen is that people HAVE and DO enslave others, people HAVE and DO mismanage resources, people HAVE and DO take a righteous stand. Yes, they ARE stories of what has gone before! Just not "miracles" of what has gone before. Do you see the difference?

Stories of what happened before, news that is not invented, authenticating what happened before...the stories are from what happened before for us to learn NOW, relatively adjusting them...what miracles are we talking about here? Why use the word miracles bro Kyle? I sure don't...They are SIGNS yes?

You have no knowledge of those LITERAL events, do not pursue that course.

Oh i do have knowledge of these literal events. God is enough for me. Once again you are touting your opinion as fact.

Respected. You wait for the stick to turn into a snake. Be sure your gandparents never saw such a thing in thier lives. Nor thier grandparents.

Eh? What do my grandparents have to do with this...you are getting personal, too personal... lol God did witness these events btw, they are put in the reading for our benefit and as an example for us to learn from.

You mean to say that because you unearthed a previous civilization that this means that there was a man in that civilizatin that coud split seas? What acheological evidence have you unearhted that is being kept from the rest of us? Please share this convincing evidence.

What convincing evidence bro? Did i say i had evidence that would make you believe? I said there are cities like that of Lot and the city of pillars that has been discovered and they have been mentioned in the reading...please go verify this fact from the net...The point was, that these cities were real cities...the archeological evidence points to it...Just like the big bang...there is evidence both in the reading and in reality that it happened...just because something is discovered, you say thats the literal verse...remember our discussion about the 'oval' earth? It will take us lifetimes upon lifetimes to even fathom whats in the majority of the reading, let alone the universe or even our planet...no one can claim that they have full understanding or that it's even possible to reach the full understanding in one lifetime..we only know the entire truth when we return to our Lord.

I am disputing that it does not make sense to follow that path that it DID literally take place.

It's your opinion. Nowhere does God say do NOT take my words to be fact and truth on ALL levels...that He needs to make up stories with a base of falsehood to teach us...or a story NOT based on actual events.

If millions of years from now one unearthed Mecca and found the black stone called Kabba, should they believe that all of the hadiths of Buckari were real? Should they just believe?

Your anology is wrong as the reading tells us of no black stone that we should be worshipping does it? What are we discussing here? This reading or Bukhari's stories?

Please elaborate on this evidence. Lets take one story and I want you to explain the archeological evidence to me and what it means to you.

Brother, I do not have any evidence that will make you believe. The evidence is in the reading. The cities that were unearthed share the descriptions told in the reading...thats all...God willing I will find some nice websites for all to share soon.

These means that you are afriad to throw YOUR stick and let the God correct your position. You are straddling the fence. I have been there and this is no disrespect.

What on earth? The reading tells me in no uncertain terms that these events happened...if i'm not denying one part and accepting the whole as per the reading, what is your point here exactly?

Does the God change his way of doing things? Why did the children of Isreal get help from a large sea to drown its oppressors, but the Africans and Jews had to find another way "through the sea"? Is that the SAME or DIFFERENT? Please answer.

What are you saying brother? Did God change His way by making you Kyle instead of Moses literally? Everyone has a different path to follow relative to their situation...Are we complaining that God is not fair because certain people are born in a wealthy family and have everything and some don't? Or are we accepting this FACT of life as a reality that everyone is different and will go through life in different situations? What is the common thread here? God helps the oppressed period if He wills. Now whichever 'way' He does that is His way and that does NOT change.

Nadia

[unknownuser]

Peace be upon you NAdia,

If everybody would have faith based on evidence the world would be a different place with no atheists abounding

So true.

[marie]

Peace Kyle,

A big error that we must correct is the thinking that the God only spoke to a man named "Musa" many years ago, this reading(quran) clarifies the fact that there was not just one single man who talked to the God and recieved direct intuition.

The God grants wisdom, science to whom He chooses . We have no knowledge except that which the God has taught us, He is the Knowledgeable, the Wise.

1785. And they ask you concerning the Spirit/the Soul, the Revelation. Say ?alrroohu is from the command on my Lord, and the knowledge you were given was but very little.?

Wayas-aloonaka AAani alrroohi quli alrroohu min amri rabbee wama ooteetummina alAAilmi illa qaleelan

18109 Say, "If all the sea were ink for my Sustainer?s Words, the sea would indeed be exhausted before my Sustainer?s Words are exhausted! And thus it would be if We were to add to it sea upon sea.? (3127).

3127 And if all the trees on earth were pens, and the sea were ink, with seven more seas yet added, the Words of Allah would not be exhausted (18109). Verily, Allah is Almighty, Wise.

[drfazl]

Mr Fazl,
So you have half heartedly just glanced "The Reading" as if it were written by some tom, dick and harry.

Nonsense.
skipped parts that I do not wish to keep repeating

Emotional?!

It is the right side of the brain that brings things together and scientists have "discovered" that pictures and metaphorical stories are recieved by this part of the brain and it is easier to digest and remember.

idolfree contradicts his quote above and answers himself as he follows with another quote

The medical profession verifies many facts because they are GREAT at EXTERNAL thinking, but they cannot apply them because they are not WHOLISTIC. They love to tear apart and undeerstand, but not put back together. Thus you have to go to a SEPERATE doctor for each part of your body. A better way to say it is they have KNOWELDGE, but no WISDOM, or at leats they are only sharing the wisdom with a few who use it for EVIL.

Atlast! Your saying that the knowledge and wisdom are far apart is much appreciated. Knowledge can never lead you to wisdom; whereas the wisdom if touched by knowledge becomes evil. Knowledge sure is untouchable is the essence of your quote.

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So YES, visualize these events as they are recited, but KNOW what these SIGNS, or we can say SYMBOLS are POINTING TO.

Events are recited and the recited events are enough visual reality and clear signs themselves. What is that then the visualzation you speak about? Severe yourself from the reality and clear signs and enter the falsehood allegories?

Please say again, I could not understand you.

First, you do not want to believe the real nature of events as Allah describes in the Book but stray away into symbolic conjecture with your little knowledge that you term it as 'envision'ing that infact is imagining! Then you want to believe the 'imagery false vision' for real. Great Symbolism!

Again, if you feign you do not understand, I will come again with another explanation to expose your knowledge as opposed to the reality, the Wisdom.

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What about the Africans sold into slavery? Did they not "cross the sea"? And the Jews from hitler? Weren't they greater atrocities than the present, and the people "crossed the sea"?

Now do you believe the above "crossing the sea" as "visual reality" or you want to cross away from the reality and believe only in the illusion, the symbolism?

I have faith that it was a true event. I do not KNOW because I did not SEE it, but I have FAITH that it happened because hese things CONTINUE TO HAPPEN. Sudan would be an example. Are you saying that the AFricans had a leader who went to a PHYSICAL SEA and spit it into two mountains? Is that what you are saying? How about the Jews? Did someone come to Hitler and throw a stick and make it turn into a snake literally? Please tell me.

Do you believe or not in the unseen powers and the highest seat of wisdom of God, which He wants you to believe even if it is not shown to you by repeating it, literally? Do you believe god cannot create what he reveals as stories. Is He so incapable that He cannot make a stick into snake or split the sea just because your limited knowledge is incapable of reaching up to it?

Understand this! god does not create by copying His own created things. He is creator without set examples. He creates what He wishes. You do not see the dead coming alive in the form you want to see. For, it is repetition of His own creation. For Him to create, no examples are needed and similarly the examples will never be repeated.

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Say "Travel through the earth and see how Allah did originate creation; so will Allah produce a later creation for Allah has power over all things."

Allah has power over all things to so create, as He had created for the first time without prior examples. The above verse if you understand clearly Allah keeps creating the later wisdom, all in real nature. After He splitting the sea His signs of which if you count or write them all down, you can never get them completed even if the sea and seven more seas are made to be ink. Every moment and every breathing is creation of wisdom in us that we fail to identify because of the 'knowledge' has 'possess'ed us. Your every breathing is miracle and every atom around you is miracle and they are being created all anew and you cannot find an example to that. Not a man called idol free was ever created before but you are the reality. You will never be recreated for the future generations to believe that you really existed. This does not mean they will have to take you as symbolic man, unreal.

Say again "I do not understand this and "Please elaborate!" ?

If mountains represent stability, why should a stable mountain being split in to two then?

The mountain was not split in two, the SEA was split in two, please re read the story.

The sea was split into two mountains. Ok? So the two mountains were the sea waters. Only the form and shape is changed. what about the intelligence associated with everything He has created? Every created thing shall not be changed into different form and shape inorder to make them submit to Him. If we are humans we are not to be changed into some unknown form to correct ourselves and stabilize in Allah's way. In the same form and shape alone we have to correct oursleves. Similar is the case with the sea. Even symbolically, if the sea is unstable, the sea must be stabilised not that it shall be turned into rocks and mountains.

Because large bodies of water represnt unstableness.

No. The sea water gives lives and lives are created from the sea water. Not only that! The sea water stabilises the lives in the sea as well as on the land.

Think of the story of Noah, didn't he build a stable boat so he could ride out he flood(large water)?

Was the boat stable as the land buildings? Your allegory does not fit in.

Think of Jonah, wasnt he riding in the large fish in the large body of water, and after he turned to the God , was put on DRY LAND(stability)? Is this clear? Do you see how the God confirms these symbolisms so they cannot just be arbitrary? There is no confusion on my part.

Before living inside the fish, Yunus was on land alone. Was that the land was unstable then? Or was Yunus living only in the sea from his birth? What about all the fishes in the sea? Were they all unstable in the water. Shall we pull them all out on to the land to make them survive better without oscillations, sothat they will be stable?

What is the symbolism of Musa?

You can think of Musa as the CONSCIOUSNESS that comes to understand the laws and leads its thoughts (children of Isreal) on a journey through this unstable environment. But als realize that one must stay VIGILANT with thier thoughts, because as soon as consciousness leaves the thoughts, they go back to thier old ways. The above explanation of Musa I do not claim to be 100% on point,but this gives you an idea of my understanding.

Thanks. Yes. The idea I get is before Musa was illustrated to the people via the reading the people did not have consciousness or god did not care about the consciousness of the population until then.

You say as a whole the 'body' of water is unstable or the mountainous society as a whole is unstable

No, I did not say that, I said large bodies of water represent unstableness, therefore unstable society is understood from it.

So a pond of water is stable; a well of water is stable; a glass of water is stable. Only river and sea are unstable. River water is pure while pond and well water is impure. Sea water gives lives to those on land and in sea. Life stability is bright only from these waters.

And mountains represent that which is MEANT TO stabilize. I say MEANT TO, because we don't have an example of a government that is stabilizing the people as it should. Please continue.

So your thesis remains to be verified; until then null and void.

Liquid unstable society is turned into rigid stable two mountains like governments is what you say? If all people are turned into two goverments where are the liquid people then ?

Are you purposely not trying to see what I am sayinig? Liquid people? Where did you get that?

I get it from your symbolism theory and I am applying it. Even as I am sincerely trying to figure out your symbolism earnestly at every level, you are losing patience. What am i to do now? You tell me.

[savage_carrot]

Peace drfazl,

Atlast! Your saying that the knowledge and wisdom are far apart is much appreciated. Knowledge can never lead you to wisdom; whereas the wisdom if touched by knowledge becomes evil. Knowledge sure is untouchable is the essence of your quote.

I don't understand the above...Is this based on the quran or just some personal philosophical discussion? Can you give me your definitions of knowledge and wisdom as per the quran if it is please? Thank you!

Nadia

[unknownuser]

Peace be upon you Marie,

The God grants wisdom, science to whom He chooses . We have no knowledge except that which the God has taught us, He is the Knowledgeable, the Wise.

1785. And they ask you concerning the Spirit/the Soul, the Revelation. Say ?alrroohu is from the command on my Lord, and the knowledge you were given was but very little.?

[unknownuser]

Peace be upon you MArie,

The God grants wisdom, science to whom He chooses . We have no knowledge except that which the God has taught us, He is the Knowledgeable, the Wise.

1785. And they ask you concerning the Spirit/the Soul, the Revelation. Say ?alrroohu is from the command on my Lord, and the knowledge you were given was but very little.?

Yes, we have been given little knowledge, therefore the Gdo tells us to seek increase in knowledge. Have you heard the phrase "knowledge is power?" This is because the more we KNOW , as opposed to THINK or just believe, the more POWER we get. KNOWING gives us greater RUH(divine energy).

Do you ever observe your self when you finally GET/UNDERSTAND something, you are filled with energy. The KNOWINGS that give you the energy to ACT.

We have to start discusiing this Ruh. Other cultures no of its importance. They call it "Chi, Qi, Kundalini, Ra, holy spirit, ect"

Its time we gained the knowledge of it, that is why the God told us we only have a little knowledge of it.

[unknownuser]

Peace be upon you Mr Fazl,

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The medical profession verifies many facts because they are GREAT at EXTERNAL thinking, but they cannot apply them because they are not WHOLISTIC. They love to tear apart and undeerstand, but not put back together. Thus you have to go to a SEPERATE doctor for each part of your body. A better way to say it is they have KNOWELDGE, but no WISDOM, or at leats they are only sharing the wisdom with a few who use it for EVIL.

Atlast! Your saying that the knowledge and wisdom are far apart is much appreciated. Knowledge can never lead you to wisdom; whereas the wisdom if touched by knowledge becomes evil. Knowledge sure is untouchable is the essence of your quote.

Wrong, that is not what I said. Knowledge leads you to Wisdom, rather I should say SHOULD lead you to wisdom. I said that the medical field has GREAT KNOWLEDGE, but no wisdom. It is the PROPER APPLICATION of knowledge that leads you to wisdom. Knowledge is not an enemy to wisdom, or the God would not tell us to seek increase in something that is harmful. The PROBLEM which I stated above is thier EXTERNAL thinking, in order to reach wisdom, you have to start to see things ABSTARCTLY, you have to go inside, but they stay OUTSIDE. They have no balance.

Do you believe or not in the unseen powers and the highest seat of wisdom of God, which He wants you to believe even if it is not shown to you by repeating it, literally? Do you believe god cannot create what he reveals as stories. Is He so incapable that He cannot make a stick into snake or split the sea just because your limited knowledge is incapable of reaching up to it?

The God is very capable, but it is not about CAN HE, but DOES HE.

The mountain was not split in two, the SEA was split in two, please re read the story.

The sea was split into two mountains. Ok? So the two mountains were the sea waters. Only the form and shape is changed. what about the intelligence associated with everything He has created?

Brother, we are dealing with SYMBOLISM, this is why the God says they were LIKE MOUNTAINS! Not for you to go back and think about sea water! He told you LIKE MOUNTAINS for a REASON. YOu will have to do your own reflecting on this. It is taking on my peace of mind to continue explaiing this because you do not truly think I have anything to offer you.

Every created thing shall not be changed into different form and shape inorder to make them submit to Him.

Who said they did???

If we are humans we are not to be changed into some unknown form to correct ourselves and stabilize in Allah's way. In the same form and shape alone we have to correct oursleves. Similar is the case with the sea. Even symbolically, if the sea is unstable, the sea must be stabilised not that it shall be turned into rocks and mountains.

It wasn't changed into rocks or mountains. It was split into two parts LIKE MOUNTAINS. The stable path was the SEA FLOOR, which is LAND/stable. The water did not changem, just PARTED.

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Because large bodies of water represnt unstableness.

No. The sea water gives lives and lives are created from the sea water. Not only that! The sea water stabilises the lives in the sea as well as on the land.

Certainly, there is no argument there. But try to walk in the ocean, then try to walk on land and the similitude should become clear.

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Think of the story of Noah, didn't he build a stable boat so he could ride out he flood(large water)?

Was the boat stable as the land buildings? Your allegory does not fit in.

It doesn't fit?? Let me ask you, how many buildings are larger then MOUNTAINS? If Noahs son took refuge on a MOUNTAIN and still drowned, how was a building going to save him? Further, the fact that he took refuge with a mountain(government/religion) further strengthens the symbolism, keeps it CONSISTENT all throughout. Do you agree?

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Think of Jonah, wasnt he riding in the large fish in the large body of water, and after he turned to the God , was put on DRY LAND(stability)? Is this clear? Do you see how the God confirms these symbolisms so they cannot just be arbitrary? There is no confusion on my part.

Before living inside the fish, Yunus was on land alone. Was that the land was unstable then? Or was Yunus living only in the sea from his birth?

He was living on land, just like Noah and his people BEFORE the flood, get it?

What about all the fishes in the sea? Were they all unstable in the water. Shall we pull them all out on to the land to make them survive better without oscillations, sothat they will be stable?

No, they have thier symbolisms as well. They indicate a spiritual man inside of an unstable environmet. Because fish no how to manuever thier way very well in this environment. The christians have this symbolism, thats why they have the JESUS FISH on thier cars, etc. This is very old symbolisms, we can go all day long with this if you are up to it.

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What is the symbolism of Musa?

You can think of Musa as the CONSCIOUSNESS that comes to understand the laws and leads its thoughts (children of Isreal) on a journey through this unstable environment. But als realize that one must stay VIGILANT with thier thoughts, because as soon as consciousness leaves the thoughts, they go back to thier old ways. The above explanation of Musa I do not claim to be 100% on point,but this gives you an idea of my understanding.

Thanks. Yes. The idea I get is before Musa was illustrated to the people via the reading the people did not have consciousness or god did not care about the consciousness of the population until then.

They had consciousness, it was just WRAPPED UP in this material illusion, so Musa came to them and told them to ARISE AND WARN! O you wrapped up!

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You say as a whole the 'body' of water is unstable or the mountainous society as a whole is unstable

No, I did not say that, I said large bodies of water represent unstableness, therefore unstable society is understood from it.

So a pond of water is stable; a well of water is stable; a glass of water is stable. Only river and sea are unstable. River water is pure while pond and well water is impure. Sea water gives lives to those on land and in sea. Life stability is bright only from these waters.

Ou have to understand the concept of CONTROLLED Vs. WILD. This reading(quran) and all others are designed to shape our BEHAVIOR. We are not to grow WILDLY, but we are to CULTIVATE our minds. So like fire and water, a small fire, like the burning bush, is good. Like when you use a fire to cook food. But when that fire RAGES OUT OF CONTROL, we get the symbolism of HELL FIRE! Smal water is good for washing, or bathing, like rain, it symbolizes revelation, but when water RAGES OUT OF CONTROL, like a FLOOD, it is bad, can you see how marvelous and CONSISTENT this symbolism is?

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And mountains represent that which is MEANT TO stabilize. I say MEANT TO, because we don't have an example of a government that is stabilizing the people as it should. Please continue.

So your thesis remains to be verified; until then null and void.

Not true, because each person GOVERNS himself on a smaller scale. By observing your own SELF GOVERNEMT, you can verify this LAW. Just like by studying a galss of sea water, you can understand the the WHOLE.

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Liquid unstable society is turned into rigid stable two mountains like governments is what you say? If all people are turned into two goverments where are the liquid people then ?

Are you purposely not trying to see what I am sayinig? Liquid people? Where did you get that?

I get it from your symbolism theory and I am applying it. Even as I am sincerely trying to figure out your symbolism earnestly at every level, you are losing patience. What am i to do now? You tell me.

Listen, this is what I will do. I will clear my mind of the memories of your posts and I will refrain form the sarcasm. But I need you to do the same. I can see you have good understandings, but you have to brought everything together. Lets continue to discuss this peacefully.

[drfazl]

Mr Fazl,Wrong, that is not what I said. Knowledge leads you to Wisdom, rather I should say SHOULD lead you to wisdom. I said that the medical field has GREAT KNOWLEDGE, but no wisdom. It is the PROPER APPLICATION of knowledge that leads you to wisdom. Knowledge is not an enemy to wisdom, or the God would not tell us to seek increase in something that is harmful. The PROBLEM which I stated above is thier EXTERNAL thinking, in order to reach wisdom, you have to start to see things ABSTARCTLY, you have to go inside, but they stay OUTSIDE. They have no balance.

You say medical field has 'great' knowledge the adjective word 'great' carries the meaning the knowledge is in the direction towards wisdom. Right? If so, why it has as you say such things like 'problem, 'no proper application', 'external thinking', 'not able to see abstractly' etc.? Does it imply the knowledge however 'great' it is, can not see the wisdom because the direction of knowledge is inherently opposite to that of wisdom?

The God is very capable, but it is not about CAN HE, but DOES HE.

Yes. He does as He pleases. 'Will He please?' is not the question for God is All-Knowing and Wise than us atleast for the time being. Let's take it that way.

Brother, we are dealing with SYMBOLISM, this is why the God says they were LIKE MOUNTAINS! Not for you to go back and think about sea water! He told you LIKE MOUNTAINS for a REASON. YOu will have to do your own reflecting on this. It is taking on my peace of mind to continue explaiing this because you do not truly think I have anything to offer you.

Reflection is very important! Symbolism means not away from practicality. The tallest is the mountain that we know of. But the sea water is so deep even mountains can be submerged. So the divided sea was like mountains. This indicates the crossed the deepest sea. "Divide the sea!" so that the sea waters stand apart and "command" the pathway dry as is necessary to cross 'the deep', is the similitude that you will carry out when you are faced with mountainous problems in your worldly life. You think the worldly knowledge is firm. No it is unstable and weightless in its theoretical argument; Blow it away if you have practical wisdom from allah. " Be and it is !" is the wisdom that i'm seeking; what is your worldly symbolism on 'be! and it is' sothat you can allegorize and argue? It is argument vs. reality.

It wasn't changed into rocks or mountains. It was split into two parts LIKE MOUNTAINS. The stable path was the SEA FLOOR, which is LAND/stable. The water did not changem, just PARTED.

But the 'dry path' is true? Without water being there, there is no need for the word 'dryness' in the verse. When allah says 'mountain-like', it is not even mountain. Ok? But do you agree you missed one important point that Allah had said, 'split the sea', (not "sea-like") into mountain-like? But split the "Sea" into two parts Like Mountains!

Your symbolism for sea is unstable according to your reflection. My symbolism for it is immense nature(sea/horizon/skies/the land) before you and you are placed as commander(stick) over them. The whole nature is made subservient to you. Just by a wave of your command the whole nature shall divide and reorganize on your either side, guarding you all the way. So be a believer!

Was the boat stable as the land buildings? Your allegory does not fit in.

It doesn't fit?? Let me ask you, how many buildings are larger then MOUNTAINS?

I am taking the similaritues between "boat" in the unstable sea and the "building" on the stable land.

If Noahs son took refuge on a MOUNTAIN and still drowned, how was a building going to save him? Further, the fact that he took refuge with a mountain(government/religion) further strengthens the symbolism, keeps it CONSISTENT all throughout. Do you agree?

Confusion. Where was the government/religion to take refuge with, when the flood waters (the tumult/revolution) have made the whole country drowned(destroyed).

He was living on land, just like Noah and his people BEFORE the flood, get it?

Do you say Yunus was stable when he lived on the ground. Why was he thorwn into the sea and then into a fish? Then he became unstable mentally(not able to govern himself) is what you are trying to say? What made him become mental? and as a result unstable? Fish is very much stable in water. So was Yunus stabilised inside the fish in the sea like submarine ships?

The people of musa had consciousness, it was just WRAPPED UP in this material illusion, so Musa came to them and told them to ARISE AND WARN! O you wrapped up!

So were the people before musa's time too. Books and prophets came to them too. How are you going to equate the names of the other prophets before musa and their people and everything associated with them? And the innumerable prophets and rasuls who have not been mentioned in the book?

This reading(quran) and all others are designed to shape our BEHAVIOR.

Just born child. What is its behaviour? How about its wisdom or knowledge or understanding?

We are not to grow WILDLY, but we are to CULTIVATE our minds. So like fire and water, a small fire, like the burning bush, is good. Like when you use a fire to cook food. But when that fire RAGES OUT OF CONTROL, we get the symbolism of HELL FIRE! Smal water is good for washing, or bathing, like rain, it symbolizes revelation, but when water RAGES OUT OF CONTROL, like a FLOOD, it is bad, can you see how marvelous and CONSISTENT this symbolism is?

In the case of prophet Ibrahim the fire heat engulfing him was cooled down; the heat being removed from the fire, just by a command!

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And mountains represent that which is MEANT TO stabilize. I say MEANT TO, because we don't have an example of a government that is stabilizing the people as it should. Please continue.

Mountains are meant to stabilize the earth. Here the earth is actual earth and mountains are actual mountains. Hence, the "symbolism of what should have been as per your account" does not exist. Your symbolism is unstable here.

So your thesis remains to be verified; until then null and void.

Listen, this is what I will do. I will clear my mind of the memories of your posts and I will refrain form the sarcasm. But I need you to do the same. I can see you have good understandings, but you have to brought everything together. Lets continue to discuss this peacefully.

May Allah Stabilze Us!

[Someone]

Peace upon you brother drfazl,

Nothing is inherently good or evil, not even death. It's what HUMANS do that is either good or evil, our actions and deeds.

Knowing how to light up a fire is rather good than bad, at least one can cook and protect himeself from animals, but one can hurt someone else using fire. This is the test.

Using knowledge to do bad things is what is called in the scripture as "sihr". Instead, "3ilm" or knowledge has a positive connotation.

Although I understand your position condemning knowledge, surely Humans without knowledge, and by implication without wisdon too, would leave on this earth like any other species of animals in accordance with the god's laws and way, with no straying off the path.

But it's too late, one cannot stop the progress of knowledge, until the day the god takes the earth and all that is on it. Remember, it was started by Adam.

I agree that wisdom has a positive connotation, contrary to "makr" or cunning.

I hope you see the picture

[drfazl]

drfazl
Can you give me your definitions of knowledge and wisdom as per the quran if it is please? Thank you!
Nadia

May Allah grant Us!
Sister savage,

Knowledge Is what we gain through the 5 material senses - the eyes, ears, nose, taste and touch - the input from these is gathered together into a process of digestion in the mind over centenniums and millenniums to develop an idea or concept which we consider as knowledge if it has any utility. Indeed , a very slow 'deadly process' consuming generations before one invention comes into practical application such as the electricity.

What we now aspire or prefer is there shall be brightness when we need it in mind and shall be put off when we do not need it in mind without resorting to any materail object such as wire, cord, remote, switch board, bulb, generator, thermal plant etc., etc. Our mind says 'how nice if we have such power'. Mind it, that power is invisible wisdom, unheard of. Become a believer in the unseen wisdom sothat by Allah's command the wisdom of it shall unfold itself in your mind.

Wisdom does not need such materials for belief, for you have already been fed deep in your heart as imaginations and dreams and as your ardent aspirations. Allah says each thought are aspiration created by Him in the mind and that it is surrounded by 'origin'al wisdom

Allah has endowed each man with the basic intelligence for living the present moment of our life on this earth. The next moment whether we will 'live or not', is not with us. But we are living with hope for the moment next, even as we are breathing out the present breath. Such is our pitiable knowledge. Always living with doubtful existence but wanting to live forever.

If ever we prefer to live peacefully our 'faith in our wish' or "belief in the wisdom" shall alone be our need. The wisdom brings the whole nature under our command. This is the reward from Allah for every individual "believer". "Believe in your wish is the ultimate wisdom!" For, every wish that is created by allah in our hearts is not a copy of what he had created before but "originated wisdom" for each of us exclusively. Our Wish is fully surrounded and well-guarded by His wisdom. Since it is selective for each individual, though seem alike to the lesser knowledge, it is to be originated through you by His leave. Thus no knowledge can ever even comprehend the wishes that originate in the hearts. Beware! you can not allow your wisdom to be endorsed by this materail knowledge(shaitaan). Because it is in this way alone we have individually lost the uncountable treasures of Allah

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And He giveth you of all that ye ask for. But if ye count the favours of Allah, never will ye be able to number them. Verily, man is given up to injustice and ingratitude(his keeping the pride of lesser knowledge over hihgest seat of wisdom).

[drfazl]

brother drfazl,
Nothing is inherently good or evil, not even death. It's what HUMANS do that is either good or evil, our actions and deeds.

May Allah Endow Us!
brother someone,

Everything is inherently good. Only the human touch makes it bad always. But for God's mercy, the world would have ended by now!

016.061
If Allah were to punish men for their wrong-doing, He would not leave, on the earth a single living creature but He gives them respite for a stated Term When their Term expires, they would not be able to delay for a single hour, just as they would not be able to anticipate it.

Knowing how to light up a fire is rather good than bad, at least one can cook and protect himeself from animals, but one can hurt someone else using fire. This is the test.

For cooking and protection from animals we need fire is bad knowledge. What happened to your wisdom? To your inner wish, that you want not the danger of fire but something better than or the best that is totally free from any harm? At this instance is it not that we need something to cook without fire or heat? Why did you not wish that wisdom? Does such a wish not what allah originated in your heart? Why did not you believe that wisdom/wish as a believer? Why were you associating your lesser, 'testy knowledge' with the Wisdom?

035.014
If ye invoke them, they will not listen to your call, and if they were to listen, they cannot answer. On the final day they will reject your "Partnership". and none, O man! can tell thee like the One Who is acquainted with all things.

Using knowledge to do bad things is what is called in the scripture as "sihr"

Yes. But what do we call as we unmindfully using the knowledge over the wisdomful wish. Yes, ignorance due to arrogance of knowledge has blinded our eyes.

I agree that wisdom has a positive connotation, contrary to "makr" or cunning.
I hope you see the picture )

Sure I do.

[unknownuser]

Peace be upon you Brother Fazl,

You say medical field has 'great' knowledge the adjective word 'great' carries the meaning the knowledge is in the direction towards wisdom. Right? If so, why it has as you say such things like 'problem, 'no proper application', 'external thinking', 'not able to see abstractly' etc.? Does it imply the knowledge however 'great' it is, can not see the wisdom because the direction of knowledge is inherently opposite to that of wisdom?

No, the problem is that knowledge must be put together properly, not kept SEPERATED/Fragmented.

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If Noahs son took refuge on a MOUNTAIN and still drowned, how was a building going to save him? Further, the fact that he took refuge with a mountain(government/religion) further strengthens the symbolism, keeps it CONSISTENT all throughout. Do you agree?

Confusion. Where was the government/religion to take refuge with, when the flood waters (the tumult/revolution) have made the whole country drowned(destroyed).

Thats just it, as you can see by Noahs son STILL TALKING, the flood had not taken over everywhere just yet,but the FACT is that the story ends with ALL THINGS being destroyed except the righteous who were delivered by the God's STABLE truth.

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He was living on land, just like Noah and his people BEFORE the flood, get it?

Do you say Yunus was stable when he lived on the ground. Why was he thorwn into the sea and then into a fish? Then he became unstable mentally(not able to govern himself) is what you are trying to say? What made him become mental? and as a result unstable? Fish is very much stable in water. So was Yunus stabilised inside the fish in the sea like submarine ships?

Yunus BECAME unstable, which is symbolized by him being thrown into the sea. He realized his mistake so he was swallowed up by a big fish to symbolize his increased stability,then finally put back on land.

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The people of musa had consciousness, it was just WRAPPED UP in this material illusion, so Musa came to them and told them to ARISE AND WARN! O you wrapped up!

So were the people before musa's time too. Books and prophets came to them too. How are you going to equate the names of the other prophets before musa and their people and everything associated with them? And the innumerable prophets and rasuls who have not been mentioned in the book?

The prophets and messengers are CHARACTERISTICS in ALL OF US. They are LEVELS of understanding.

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This reading(quran) and all others are designed to shape our BEHAVIOR.

Just born child. What is its behaviour? How about its wisdom or knowledge or understanding?

New born child is just starting to see SEPERTAION, when it is born it does not see itself as a seperate being from its mother and all objects in the room, it truly understands ONENESS and must be crying because it is now being SEPERATED as the cutting of the umbilical cord.

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We are not to grow WILDLY, but we are to CULTIVATE our minds. So like fire and water, a small fire, like the burning bush, is good. Like when you use a fire to cook food. But when that fire RAGES OUT OF CONTROL, we get the symbolism of HELL FIRE! Smal water is good for washing, or bathing, like rain, it symbolizes revelation, but when water RAGES OUT OF CONTROL, like a FLOOD, it is bad, can you see how marvelous and CONSISTENT this symbolism is?

In the case of prophet Ibrahim the fire heat engulfing him was cooled down; the heat being removed from the fire, just by a command!

That which is fire for one person is cool for another, it all depends on your position. This was not a literal story were some man was set on fire and a magical formula was said for him.

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And mountains represent that which is MEANT TO stabilize. I say MEANT TO, because we don't have an example of a government that is stabilizing the people as it should. Please continue.

Mountains are meant to stabilize the earth. Here the earth is actual earth and mountains are actual mountains. Hence, the "symbolism of what should have been as per your account" does not exist. Your symbolism is unstable here.

Symbolism is based on the CREATION, this way it is a LANGUAGE that ALL CAN SPEAK AND UNDERSTAND. You just don't want to see. So I leave you with your fantasies in Peace. Thank you for the discussion. I hope those who can SEE will see.

[Someone]

Peace drfazl,

Knowing how to light up a fire is rather good than bad, at least one can cook and protect himeself from animals, but one can hurt someone else using fire. This is the test.

For cooking and protection from animals we need fire is bad knowledge. What happened to your wisdom? To your inner wish, that you want not the danger of fire but something better than or the best that is totally free from any harm? At this instance is it not that we need something to cook without fire or heat? Why did you not wish that wisdom? Does such a wish not what allah originated in your heart? Why did not you believe that wisdom/wish as a believer? Why were you associating your lesser, 'testy knowledge' with the Wisdom?

035.014
If ye invoke them, they will not listen to your call, and if they were to listen, they cannot answer. On the final day they will reject your "Partnership". and none, O man! can tell thee like the One Who is acquainted with all things.

I don't understand this part of your post.

[Someone]

Everything is inherently good. Only the human touch makes it bad always. But for God's mercy, the world would have ended by now!

016.061
If Allah were to punish men for their wrong-doing, He would not leave, on the earth a single living creature but He gives them respite for a stated Term When their Term expires, they would not be able to delay for a single hour, just as they would not be able to anticipate it.

Peace drfazl,

Does everything here includes "iblis"?

I understand that except humans, everything in the creation had choosen to hear and obey the god, thus being "good" as you said. And thus, the "bad or evil" can only emmanate from ourselves.

[drfazl]

Peace drfazl,
Does everything here includes "iblis"?

I understand that except humans, everything in the creation had choosen to hear and obey the god, thus being "good" as you said. And thus, the "bad or evil" can only emmanate from ourselves.

May Allah Bless
someone

Yes. Except for the humans and jinns who were given the choice, everything in the creation had been chosen to obey the god. And thus, the "bad or evil" can only emanate from men and jinns. "Iblis" turned shaitan when he bacame proud before allah. Likewise, there are shaitans among the "men" too.