CLASSIC ARABIC GRAMMAR EXPERTS

HP_TECH

Peace,

Anyway, I don't think the forum is responding well to this poll. A lot of people are just reading and passing lol. I tried I guess... Well also there is no way to identify who responded to the poll, so I guess maybe I'll try with a post instead of a coldly served poll.
Or maybe it'is because I am a newbie. & I hope I didn't come off as arrogant. I myself am not very but extremely poor with both language and grammar.

Man_of_Faith

Hello,

I answered the poll some days ago. But my knowledge is centered on the language of Quran and my skill is with ancient Arabic rather than the language that came into existence through religious bias.

I am also not arrogant even if it seems people see it that way. I know a thing or two about the nature of God too, honestly, without exaggeration.

Welcome to the forum anyway since I know that you are new.

Be safe
Amenuel

Wakas

I never answered your poll because

it didn't have the option that applied to me, which would probably be I am only familiar with some of the language and grammar
(although with resources/books one can obtain a reasonable level of knowledge)
it is nonsense/irrelevant, i.e. knowledge of Classical Arabic doesn't necessarily mean free of bias

It's a bit like asking chefs who is good at chopping with their knife so you can determine if you can trust them with your food.

HP_TECH

I never answered your poll because

it didn't have the option that applied to me, which would probably be I am only familiar with some of the language and grammar
(although with resources/books one can obtain a reasonable level of knowledge)

I see then intermediary would have been fine I presume but It was just to gauge/estimate not to label or demean.

it is nonsense/irrelevant, i.e. knowledge of Classical Arabic doesn't necessarily mean free of bias

It's a bit like asking chefs who is good at chopping with their knife so you can determine if you can trust them with your food.

I think it is more like you want to make your own specific dinner you have never tried this before nor seen any of the ingredients, so you ask the chefs which have experience with this dish.
I mean it is a foreign language to me! The script in the Quran looks literally just like "signs" to me (no punt intended). I do not have the slightest clue how to differentiate different roots... If this is also the case for many others then we are totally reliant on dictionaries/lexicons/translations which are subject to bias which we cannot question. That is why at the very least in this forum I would have the opportunity to go back and forth/demand explanations/try to make some sense out of the interpretations of "experts"/"experienced amateurs". I apologize if I offended you, I do not wish to incur anyone's hostility.

I just wanted the results to lead to something like this
Hey Amenuel, Wakas remember you said you were quite familiar with arabic, I am curious to know what you think regarding this verse in 434 the word translated is "beat" hmmmm but my heart tells me that it is not logical for God to issue such a command. Now I typically would not seek any1 besides God alone to ask for explanation but I am a foreigner to this language so I will consult you those who have also submitted to The One the Irresistible in this matter. Da-ra-ba in this context can it mean anything other than beat? I see in quranic contexts solely based on the translations available to me (i.e. corpus.quran.com, project root list, islam awakened etc..) it can have several different meaning, travel, set forth, strike etc.. Which meaning can be inferred through examination without breaking the grammatical/contextual fluidity or rigidity?

In this case knowledge of the grammar would help because even if your bias wanted to incline towards a certain interpretation, a different meaning would not be supported by quranic context as for example beat always has a subject which this particular verse lacks. But even that is merely what I have been told by others... If it is simple on you I commend you, but to me it is very relevant, sensical.

Whoever picked the highest option please step forward that I may inquire of you

Thanks

Wakas

You are in luck. I wrote the following on 434
http//www.quran434.com/wife-beating-islam.html

Determining the root of words is easy now with corpus.quran.com (simply type in the verse top right, e.g. 434, then it shows you the word by word, then click on the word you want to investigate, and it tells you the root).

And no need to apologise, you didn't offend me.

huruf

I think it is best to put forward a particular question and ask of peolewho might know the grammar, not foropinions but for grammar. The question of expertise is very relative. I you mean like a doctorate of Al azhar in Arabic, I doubt that you are going to find many, but may be there are peoplewho know enough grammar to solve many quiries but would not dare to pose as experts.

Just state clearly that you want grammar data and not ungrounded speculation. Because obviously you can speculate if you have the propper grounds, it may not be a solution but it miht clarify possibilities or impossibilities.

Salaam

HP_TECH

Peace,

You are in luck. I wrote the following on 434
http//www.quran434.com/wife-beating-islam.html

@Wakas I have read that before when I stumbled upon it a week ago, before I joined this forum! Ah, the "coincidence"! God is Most Wise! Your article presents many interesting points! I have not finished it so... I will finish it and then ask you more later! Psssss (whispers) I am familiar with corpus

Da-ra-ba in this context can it mean anything other than beat? I see in quranic contexts solely based on the translations available to me (i.e. corpus.quran.com, project root list, islam awakened etc..) it can have several different meaning, travel, set forth, strike etc..

Although that was just an example, it turns out that I might actually want to understand that word better after all. I was convinced up to a week ago it meant separate from but the argument you make about the process of divorce and the injustice of abandonment or being forced to leave is insightful! I thank my Lord for that which He guides me to of the Truth! I seek refuge in Him from that which is the falsehood!

@Huruf

Just state clearly that you want grammar data and not ungrounded speculation. Because obviously you can speculate if you have the propper grounds, it may not be a solution but it miht clarify possibilities or impossibilities.

Salaam

You are right. Thank you man

Salaamun

As-Salaatayn

Salaam,

Having a high level of Classical Arabic is essential, as well as having access to the Classical sources. But it does not mean that one is free from bias. That is true. However, I have noticed that the more access one has to Classical Lexicons like Lisaanul-Arab and Taajul-3Aroos and Mu'jam Al-faadhul-Qur'aan by Abul-Qasim and others the less likely one can be biased if one is honest with all of the meanings there. The same thing goes for knowledge of awzaan and broken plurals (al-jam'ul-mukassar). Equally one is less likely to rely on conjecture. Although, again this does not means that makes us free from bias. But it does allow us to recognize bias more clearly and with evidence.

God bless,
Anwar

Man_of_Faith

Taj al-aroos is good indeed. I use it myself. Most appropriate definitions I find in it.

Be safe
Amenuel

As-Salaatayn

If you read the section on ahaad hadeeth vs. mutawaatir concerning proofs of the language you will find a pretty clear condemnation of the use of the ahaad hadeeth as a source of definite knowledge. It mention how people take the ahaad hadeeth for use with the religion and the answer is an ambiguous 'hadhaa adnaa' or 'hadhaa awlaa.' Which you can interpret as referring to the criticism or the fact that they use these hadeeth with the religion. I think the ambiguity is purposeful. But The Classical Arabic Master linguist Imam Fakhru-d-deen Ar-Raazi is pretty clear about ahaad narrations being conjectural because it is possible/probable that they can be false.

check out http//www.alwaraq.net/Core/index.jsp?option=1

You can also find my translation of that section here

http//quranists.proboards.com/thread/44/proof-saheeh-hadeeth-conjecture

Salaam,
Anwar

Osman

Peace,

Hi all I am new to the forum and would like to run a poll to assess how many active Arabic experts frequent this forum. If you would please be so kind to take this poll I would be very pleased. I think it is important for us to be honest with ourselves and also to learn who we can reach out/collaborate with/consult regarding translations / interpretations. It would be a great resource to know who we can address, because in my opinion not many can be trusted with translations due to bias or influence. So i would again really appreciate if you took the time to answer this short poll. I think it will be very beneficial to some or maybe at least myself to know.
Thank you in advance companions of the forum!
handshake

Hello and welcome )

Your poll may need to have a few more options as most people who post in Free-Minds forum can't speak or write Arabic of any kind and what limited understanding of grammar they have is not the result of formal education but taken from online searches.

This is an English language forum after all, if people here had any kind of proficiency in Arabic they could do their debates in an Arabic language forum.

HP_TECH

check out http//www.alwaraq.net/Core/index.jsp?option=1

You can also find my translation of that section here

http//quranists.proboards.com/thread/44/proof-saheeh-hadeeth-conjecture

Peace Anwar and Amenuel,

Wow I wish I could read Arabic. I think my next step is going to be trying to learn Arabic.
How should I go about this? What should I use? Etc.

HP_TECH

Hello and welcome )

Your poll may need to have a few more options as most people who post in Free-Minds forum can't speak or write Arabic of any kind and what limited understanding of grammar they have is not the result of formal education but taken from online searches.

This is an English language forum after all, if people here had any kind of proficiency in Arabic they could do their debates in an Arabic language forum.

Yeah you're right! Thanks for the welcome

Osman

Yeah you're right! Thanks for the welcome

Haha no worries )

I may be right, but I doubt we'd be able to get some of the members to admit this obvious fact! D They're very touchy here on this issue, because admitting that 99% of people at Free-Minds don't know what they're talking about when it comes to the language of the Qur'an threatens to expose a potentiality that this community is completely deluding and misguiding itself! hypno

Fus7a Arabic certainly is not a straightforward language grammatically, and has many many convoluted rules, many of which are context based. For language specialists, Arabic gets placed in the highest difficulty category for native English speakers along with Japanese, Korean and Chinese languages. Realistically, it would take the average English speaker with little language skills at least 4 years of continuous study (and by that I mean 1-2 hours a day, every day) to get to any kind of proficiency. And my saying this would have many language experts laughing at me saying I'm being far too conservative as it's generally thought that Arabic requires 2000 study hours for English speakers, and they tend to include the one written and two spoken varieties in this as what is classed as proficient.

And let's take the other groups who post here, the Europeans and South Asians, most European and South Asian languages are related and are closer to English than they are to Arabic, so again, they're going to face the same problems (just so you know the problem isn't because the speakers are native English).

This site and forum is called Free-Minds, and there's a group think here that everyone is more guided than those nasty and deluded mainstream Muslims (if you think I'm generalising or building straw men it's very easy to look through hundreds of old threads to see the kind of poison that is spat against the most persecuted and murdered people on the planet - Muslims).

I've found that there's a lot of confused and lost people here who refuse to admit some things, until they admit these things to themselves they get stuck in the limbo that is Free-Minds, which in my opinion (just watch that get quoted) acts like a waiting room or hallway with many destinations, a few people have sat in the waiting room for some time but most move on. What you will not find here (which a lot of poeple look for when they join and which the mods will tell you is not necessarily what we're here for) is a united community with a direction or concensus.

We all have the luxury of hiding behind the internet, and as it's a forum people can run off and google something to pretend they're an expert on an issue, this can't be done face to face in real time so it would be great to meet some of these people in real life or Skype to see if you can get some of these self-styled experts to demonstrate their abilities

good_logic

Peace Osman.

I see what you are trying to demonstrate.

Still, any forum ,has people claiming this ,that and the other. Some are worse than others. I found this forum to be just that "A forum".

People are "free" to state any opinion they wish/believe/want.....The reader has the responsibility to check/study/believe/reject...

For me, the issue is "Qoran". Now, no one should claim expertise on Qoran even if they are experts in the Arabic language. GOD has this expertise Alone." Alrahman allama Qoran".

What is the role of a forum? It is important to look and try to differentiate .

Uniting and agreeing with each other is one thing, explaining and pondering Qoran is a different thing altogether.

The language of Arabic is another thing also. GOD says Even an expert in Arabic,if not guided,will not understand Qoran?

Of course the language and expertise of someone who knows Arabic is useful. However with Qoran ,it may not help!

So yes ,some members here do not understand Arabic,are not experts in Arabic . Those who claim they are and lie ,I would argue are not adhering to the etiquettes of Qoran.

I have said before and will repeat,I do not know Arabic apart from some basics to study Qoran with. I am far from being an expert in anything. Even though I teach Mathematics ,I do not claim I am an expert in Mathematics. There are many fields and topics that I need to revisit and study.

My point here is Do you need to know/be an expert ...in Arabic to understand Qoran?

Because this forum is about "Qoran", discussing Qoran ,even if one does not know Arabic ,can be independent of the Arabic language.

GOD bless you.
Peace.

Osman

Peace good logic,

I see what you are trying to demonstrate.

Yes, I'm trying to help Herman get an answer to his questions, I hope you agree that I've been helpful )

Still, any forum ,has people claiming this ,that and the other. Some are worse than others. I found this forum to be just that "A forum".

People are "free" to state any opinion they wish/believe/want.....The reader has the responsibility to check/study/believe/reject...

This is a general statement in life, barring situations of control, this isn't unique to Free-Minds just because it uses 'Free', people can go about the internet as they please. I have agreements and disagreements with people here yet I am 'Free' to come and go as I please, just as I'm free to do this in others but ultimately I don't challenge this forum that much, if I did, trust me, it would be another story. There have been people who argued well yet challenged the forum from a mainstream Muslim perspective who have been banned and all their posts deleted; so in this respect we could put this forum in the 'worse' category.

Last month one of my friends got banned from the TV License Resistance forum because two people there claimed Palestine ran the BBC and manipulated its news, when he laughed at this and gave clear evidence to show Israel in fact did this he got banned immediately. So all over the place, even though people may be free to roam, in many places there is the false pretence of 'freedom' where in fact things are very delicately controlled.

There is a very marginal set of beliefs maintained here which is completely at odds with a core set of principles shared by Mainstream Muslim Scholarship, Western Orientalist Scholarship and even those who undertake a Critical Examination of Religion. In this respect we can parallel the workings here the same as the workings of any New Age or Cult forum run by a minority of people who have a vested interest in keeping its popularity in spite of having tenuous standing in reality.

For me, the issue is "Qoran". Now, no one should claim expertise on Qoran even if they are experts in the Arabic language. GOD has this expertise Alone." Alrahman allama Qoran".

I think you're now drifting into nitpicking territory which is a common refrain on this forum and serves to sideline any genuine discussion. Courts of law recognise 'experts', an expert is synonymous with being very proficient or skilled in a certain area. We can claim that people are very proficient or have a good understanding of a certain subject and we can't shoot anyone who wishes to use the term 'expert' in this regard. As with people claiming they're 'experts' here or claiming they are knowledgeable in a certain field when clearly they don't this happens too often here to result in any kind of meaningful progress.

What is the role of a forum? It is important to look and try to differentiate .

Uniting and agreeing with each other is one thing, explaining and pondering Qoran is a different thing altogether.

The language of Arabic is another thing also. GOD says Even an expert in Arabic,if not guided,will not understand Qoran?

Of course the language and expertise of someone who knows Arabic is useful. However with Qoran ,it may not help!

The problem is that people who use this forum, and the website itself believe and claim our beliefs, actions and faith affect our eternal souls so even though we can back out and say 'Ah it's just a forum', it's not just a forum to many people, I doubt God is going to be judging the guys over at bike forums for talking about issues with their bikes more than people here who may be purposefully misleading and misguiding people to hell or to upsetting God.

I think saying 'Ah it's just a forum' is a cop out in light of all the seriousness and claims of eternal souls and the general subject matters we're talking about.

So yes ,some members here do not understand Arabic,are not experts in Arabic . Those who claim they are and lie ,I would argue are not adhering to the etiquettes of Qoran.

And here we fall back to gross hypocrisy, which again is another aspect of cult mentality.

I have said before and will repeat,I do not know Arabic apart from some basics to study Qoran with. I am far from being an expert in anything. Even though I teach Mathematics ,I do not claim I am an expert in Mathematics. There are many fields and topics that I need to revisit and study.

If you're teaching mathematics to schoolchildren, I wouldn't say you were an expert, however if you have obtained a PhD and have gained a professorship and are teaching it at university, I would not shoot someone down for stating you were an expert or at the very least proficient in mathematics without a good argument to the contrary!

My point here is Do you need to know/be an expert ...in Arabic to understand Qoran?

Yes you do otherwise you fall into the Christian Fundamentalist type trap. I think claiming otherwise is being completely unreasonable. One could say God has given every person here the chance to be proficient in Arabic and many have squandered that chance in arrogance. Good logic, you need to be proficient in Arabic to have a good understanding the Qor'aan, it's one of the perequisites, otherwise you're at the mercy of someone else who has translated it for you. Come on, be reasonable.

Because this forum is about "Qoran", discussing Qoran ,even if one does not know Arabic ,can be independent of the Arabic language.

I disagree with you, I think this is one of the major flaws of this forum.

GOD bless you.

God bless you too good logic ) ) ) group

mmkhan

Salaamun,

Please take a look at this thread. Thanks.

May Allah increase our knowledge and guide us on His path pr
mmKhan

savage_carrot

There have been people who argued well yet challenged the forum from a mainstream Muslim perspective who have been banned and all their posts deleted
Let it be known that this individual has failed to prove this slander with any evidence whatsoever. The ID of one individual was provided after being asked and their posts still exist on the forum. This individual (Ahmed Bhagat) was banned for obscenities. Please be advised that slander is taken very seriously.

If there are any questions about this please PM. Further discussion on topic.