How to overcome the sin of lust/temptation
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Peace As-Salaatayn,
Suratun-Naazi'3aat says in 7940-41
Verily those who fear standing before their lord and forbid themselves from lust/whim/desire paradise will be their home.
So, Taro, i really like what you have had to say. I believe that it confirms the Qur'an's message.
Thanks for sharing those verses.
May the God bless you.
Much respect,
Taro H.
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I don't understand, brother Hawk. confused
Would you kindly explain further?
Peace.
Peace JavaLatte
To control lust Men have instituted a system of oppression
that favors men and marginalizes women. Allah has warned us about
oppression and subjugation but we can't seem to do otherwise.Oppression has negative effects on the oppressed and the oppressor
The oppressed fear, conformity, self hate, self deception and hopelessness.
The oppressor tyranny, punishment, ownership, paternalism and control.Salaam hawk,
I find it really interesting to observe the effects of this in Europe compared to other more conservative countries.
Peace es
Could you please share what you observe in Europe as compared to other conservative countries.
Personally when I was in Europe I found the Europeans not as uptight about sex as in America.
Sex or lust of whatever looks more a a damnation than as a potential por the human species. As I said in one post, we seem to tend to make a sewer of it. Nowhere the Qur'n warrants that view. In fact in the first 21 ayas of An Nur points precisely to what I think Hawk and es have signalled.
In an nur, after setting limits to charges anonymous or not of zina, the Qur'an goes on to damn and condemn nd rebuke very, very stronglly those who carry gossip and slander concerning lust, particularly of women.
That precisely countrie which are populated by "muslims" should be prone to that kind of things is the worst indictement of their failure to obey God, worse, their failure to take the slightest interest in obeying God.
Of course not all people are like that in those countries and may people indeed are sick of it, but the dark minds seem to have got the upper hand.
We must struggle to make air circulate in our darkest rooms and dispel that sordid atmosphere that surrounds sex. Sex is the source of human life, in fact of the life of many species. That for humans it should be likened or linked to so much filth is really depressing and a measure of human failure.
Sorry for the apocalyptic tone.
Salaam
Peace huruf, well said, you tone is fine.
Peace hawk99,
It seems that you have misunderstood and/or misinterpreted my intentions or some of what I have written in this thread. The reason why I have shared a lot of information about the topic/subject of lust in this thread, is because I thought that some members in FM might find this information interesting and/or useful/helpful (especially those who are struggling with the sin of lust). If only you could understand.Peace Taro Hiroshi
I didn't mean to hurt your feelings. Could you comment on the rest of the post?
peace
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Peace hawk99,
I didn't mean to hurt your feelings.
You didn't hurt my feelings.
Could you comment on the rest of the post?
You seem to be right regarding the rest of your post.
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Peace everyone,
Today I visited a forum. And In that forum there was a thread were some forum members had discussed the topic of lust (in the past). In that thread some members had shared their thoughts regarding how to overcome the sin of lust. And one of the members claimed that getting married is the best solution to the problem of lust. But personally, I disagree with such a view. Because it seems that if someone struggles with the sin of lust and gets married, then/she will just bring that problem into his/her marriage. In my view, marriage is not a magical solution to the problem of lust. I think that if someone gets married in order to solve the problem of lust, then he/she is not treating the root cause of lust. Let me explain this through an example. If someone is overweight, and gets married, then he/she will still be overweight after he/she gets married. Marriage doesn't solve the problem of being overweight. And the same goes for the problem of lust, in my opinion.
In his book Climbing Mount Purgatorio, Hamza Yusuf suggests that a lack of spiritual purpose (commitment to the ethical life) leads to boredom, and boredom leads to the pursuit of pleasure (the aesthetical life), and the the pursuit of pleasure (the aesthetical life) leads to a "state of lust." Is Hamza Yusuf suggesting that a lack of purpose (commitment to the ethical life) is the root cause of lust? I think that this question is worth pondering upon.
I'd like to share a few quotes here.
"Whenever man falls prey to lust, he sinks to the lowest of the low and joins the animal herd. Whenever he curbs his desires, he ascends to the highest of the high and attains the angelic level."
-Imam al-Ghazali"Declare your jihad on thirteen enemies you cannot see - egoism, arrogance, conceit, selfishness, greed, lust, intolerance, anger, lying, cheating, gossiping and slandering. If you can master and destroy them, then you will be read to fight the enemy you can see."
- Imam al-Ghazali
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Peace JavaLatte
To control lust Men have instituted a system of oppression
that favors men and marginalizes women. Allah has warned us about
oppression and subjugation but we can't seem to do otherwise.Oppression has negative effects on the oppressed and the oppressor
The oppressed fear, conformity, self hate, self deception and hopelessness.
The oppressor tyranny, punishment, ownership, paternalism and control.Oh, okay, I think I started to get a hint about what you meant, brother Hawk. I suppose I confused because I didn't see things you mentioned happens in my environment (my city and in the other places I've visited in my country). I think, in general (commonly) - Indonesian women are not being oppressed by Indonesian men.
Anyway, brother Hawk and everyone, perhaps we should try to listen to what the topic starter (Hiroshi) wanted to convey here. It seems that Hiroshi wanted to share something that can be solution for those who want to be free from being lustful by treating the root cause of lust (on individual level).
Peace everyone,
Today I visited a forum. And In that forum there was a thread were some forum members had discussed the topic of lust (in the past). In that thread some members had shared their thoughts regarding how to overcome the sin of lust. And one of the members claimed that getting married is the best solution to the problem of lust. But personally, I disagree with such a view. Because it seems that if someone struggles with the sin of lust and gets married, then/she will just bring that problem into his/her marriage. In my view, marriage is not a magical solution to the problem of lust. I think that if someone gets married in order to solve the problem of lust, then he/she is not treating the root cause of lust.
@ Hiroshi
Do you know how to treat the root cause of lust?
Maybe you cold tell us more (explain) about it.
Thank you. Peace.
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Peace JavaLatte and everyone,
@ Hiroshi
Do you know how to treat the root cause of lust?
Maybe you cold tell us more (explain) about it.
I recommend this post
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9608087.msg380737#msg380737
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Peace JavaLatte and everyone,
I recommend this post
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9608087.msg380737#msg380737
It seems what I could get is the treatment is by finding the real meaning of our lives, or perhaps in other words we should know the real purpose of life, is it correct?
Peace.
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Peace huruf and everyone,
If the truth be told, I don't think that anyone in this forum rejects/condemns sex. However, it seems that there are many members in FM who believe that sexual relations outside of marriage is incompatible with the teachings of the Quran.
I have shared some of my thoughts and views/opinions regarding sexual relations outside of marriage in the post below.
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9607700.msg376592#msg376592
I'd like to share a quote here.
I did not pretend at all that anybody in this forum or elsewhere were taking as a principle that sex is a sewer or or it raises that. I think that some readers understood well what I meant.
It is a fact in society as a whole at somelevel, and dependg on whom, at all levels sex is dealth with or is held s a kind of sewer. Even when we hear that in order to escape "lust" we should marry, what idea do we have in mind to take refuge of something which seems to be so frightening.
So then, first and foremost for ech of us
what is sex? what does it mean? how do we interpret it?
We know why we eat, we know perfectlly well that it is not every time we eat that we do it because if not we would die for lack of nourishment. We also know that we can eat and drink without unbearable hunger be th reason for it. I sum we eat for pleasure? Is it wrong? It can be wrong but it is not necessarily wrong. Eating for pleasure has its own limits since when we overdo it, we get health trouble. We may get other troubles BEFORE we get health troubles because we become addicted to the pleasure of eating which inevitably will lead to the physical troubles becuse we will not be able to stop it.
But nothing wrong with eating for pleasure in itself. It has its limits. Obvious but unclear limits in the sense that we do feel that we are trespassing them unless we are alert.
Tehre are clear differences btween sex and eating. Eating we do it with food. Sex "ideally" is not with ourselves alone but with somebody else. Nothing wrong with pleasure. I fact pleasure, I think, is a requirement for health. The poorest people, within their own constraints, manage to get pleasur of some kind.
We are told in the Qur'an that when we get, in sha' allah to paradise we will recognize things that we tasted in our past life. Pleasure seems to be one of them. Pleasure is the nosstalgy for paradise. But for that, our pleasures must be joyful, pure, untainted. Pure pleasure, not treason, no betrayal, no using other people as if they were rags we use and throw. What do we get out of "companions pure"?
The fact that sex is with somebody else makes it on a higher level than food, more complex but also more rewarding and purer. We may tolerate some "licence" with ourselves, because we know ourselves (or should or might) but we do not know othrs as well, so we may harm the other and taint him or her, making them ito our instruments, filthy ones, nd not ito our companions, ure companions.
It is too bad that most "sensible" pople seem to hold the view that thre is no sex in paradise, since we do not need reproduction? Just as we will not need to eat or drink, but still we are told that we will get drinks and foods. So why not sex. Of course it will not be the same as here, eithr the food, neithr the drink, neither the sex. But we will recognize it.
Those "sensible" opinions say that since we will not reproduce we will not need sex. But
did God give us reproduction as we know, sexual, as we know it as a need or as aa pleasure, as some way of acknowleding Him, Glorious. Because we could achieve rerodution by the same compulsive mechanism and still not get any pleausre out of it. It is quite possible. In fact that is the way birth is achieved for the mothers. Compulsive but not precisely pleasurable most of the time.
So, my view, is that sex is a gift from God, a sacred gift for our pleasure, but not to treat it as trash, which is the standing it gets in societies at many levels. Prostitution is not highly considered, and prostitution is not done only by those who get paid for it, but by anybody that subverts the gift of God making it trivial, an entertainment because you feel bored or want some excitement, that is prostituting yourself and your soul. And I do not mean either that xentertainment or ecitement is wrong, in due measure and in due form.
We should observe ourselves, analyse why we feel whatever we feel, why we do this or that... Be absolutely sincere with ourselves. Get naked of all our "libas", of all thoughts that cover our most inner feelings and motives. We are our best teachers by God's prmission if we ask ourselves sincerely, without entrapments and we answer in the same way.And let us not forget what the Qur'an says in 4.21
And how could ye take it when ye have gone in unto each other, and they have Taken from you a solemn covenant?
This mithaq ghaliDh which here is translated as solemn covenant occurs only in the Qur'an when refrring to the covenant of God with his prophets or with the people led by the prohet.
Which means that this joyous happening is something that God holds as ghaliDh, as pact, and as something tremendous in its import. This is nothing to do with somberness as sex has been held in certain Christian minds as something dark and devious and misleading. That is not what the Qur'an transmits. It is pleasure, it is joy, it is something which will be shown to us in Paradise, in sha' Allah in its "real" reality, and He gives us here a pre taste, a reflection of the thing itself.
If I am allowed the comparison, it is something as the globus fish of Japan, which is a great worthwhile treat, but you have to make sure that you clean it well to rid it of the mortal poison.
Salaam
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Peace huruf.
I like your post. It is "pleasurable" to read.
You hit the bullseye with 421. Intimacy for a couple is the joining of the souls.
Betrayal of the soul is a gross injustice.So I agree that "sex" needs to be understood in that context. A mutual agreement between two people. That intimacy of being together locks them into one unit.A contract that needs to be fulfilled throughout their life together.
Of course ,we are still researching what is "pleasure" of all our senses. We get pleasure from seeing, hearing, touching, eating, drinking,sex,etc...But there is that fine line between what benefit us and what harm us. Exceeding that line can be fatal.
Thank you for that insight huruf.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Thaks good logic, I am glad you have seen something of what sort of hovered above me.
I think pleasure from God is unconditional. God does not ask anything form us in order to order pleasure for us. What is imortant is that we recognize the pleasure, acknowledge it, enjoy it and then think what great creator is our Creator who created pleasure and thank Him from our hearts for His generosity, for his wondrous generosity, and then enjoy us in full knowledge that we must enjoy fully pleasure because when the hard times come and we must suffer we may know who and what we are and what God wants to make of us, courageous, joyful, persons who want to get nearer to Him.
I spoke about the pleasure of sex and about the pains of childbirth, we must acknowledge both. Males have the trap of not knowing the second and therefore thinking that everything is for free, that is thir pitfall, and that is why God in the honourable Qur'an orders them so many things and why he sent so mny male prophets. Males ar not there to enjoy what is on earth without a counterbalance, they must serve, as prophets serve, and males must support, sustain women, because they come up with the burden that sex bring to the women but not to the men.
Nowhere it is a matter of guilt, but a matter of honour, for each of them as they come up willingly to the hnour that God wants to bestow on them.
Salaam
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Peace huruf and everyone,
I did not pretend at all that anybody in this forum or elsewhere were taking as a principle that sex is a sewer or or it raises that. I think that some readers understood well what I meant.
Are you implying that you have spoken in a secret language that only some readers have understood? Can you tell all of us (in a honest/straighthforward way) what you did meant?
Nothing wrong with pleasure. I fact pleasure, I think, is a requirement for health. The poorest people, within their own constraints, manage to get pleasur of some kind.
I think you are right/correct when you say that there is nothing wrong with pleasure and that pleasure is a requirement for health. It seems that pleasure is a natural sensation which our body uses to encourage us to do things that are good for us (e.g. eating nutritious food). Thus, it seems that pleasure serves its purpose. But is pleasure a means to an end, or an end in itself? This question is worth pondering upon, in my opinion.
From my understanding of Al-Quran, pleasure is not haram (forbidden). And from my understanding of AQ, getting pleasure is not incompatible with the teachings of this divine/sacred book. That being said, AQ seems to suggest that one should get pleasure only in a moderate way. From my knowledge, even water which is good for our bodies, can become dangerous if it's not used in moderation. There have been incidents where people have become hospitalized because they drank too much water.
As mentioned earlier, water is good for our bodies. But if we misuse water, it can be bad for us. Perhaps the same goes for pleasure. I think that there is a difference between getting pleasure (as a means to an end) or pursuing pleasure (as an end in itself). There are several verses in AQ which seem to suggest that the "pursuit of pleasure" is incompatible with the teachings of this sacred/divine book (see this post).
It is too bad that most "sensible" pople seem to hold the view that thre is no sex in paradise, since we do not need reproduction? Just as we will not need to eat or drink, but still we are told that we will get drinks and foods. So why not sex. Of course it will not be the same as here, eithr the food, neithr the drink, neither the sex. But we will recognize it.
There might be sex in the next life (aka Paradise). Have you find any Quranic verses which suggest that there is sex in Paradise? If you have found any verse which explicitly states that there is sex in paradise, please share it in a post in this thread.
So, my view, is that sex is a gift from God, a sacred gift for our pleasure, but not to treat it as trash, which is the standing it gets in societies at many levels.
Are you referring to sex between a husband and wife? Or are you referring to sex outside of marriage?
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Peace huruf and everyone,
Are you implying that you have spoken in a secret language that only some readers have understood? Can you tell all of us (in a honest/straighthforward way) what you did meant?
I think you are right/correct when you say that there is nothing wrong with pleasure and that pleasure is a requirement for health. It seems that pleasure is a natural sensation which our body uses to encourage us to do things that are good for us (e.g. eating nutritious food). Thus, it seems that pleasure serves its purpose. But is pleasure a means to an end, or an end in itself? This question is worth pondering upon, in my opinion.
From my understanding of Al-Quran, pleasure is not haram (forbidden). And from my understanding of AQ, getting pleasure is not incompatible with the teachings of this divine/sacred book. That being said, the Quran seems to suggest that one should get pleasure only in a moderate way. From my knowledge, even water which is good for our bodies, can become dangerous if it's not used in moderation. There have been incidents where people have become hospitalized because they drank too much water.
As mentioned earlier, water is good for our bodies. But if we misuse water, it can be bad for us. Perhaps the same goes for pleasure. I think that there is a difference between getting pleasure (as a means to an end) or pursuing pleasure (as an end in itself). There are several verses in AQ which seem to suggest that the "pursuit of pleasure" is incompatible with the teachings of the Quran (see this post).
There might be sex in the next life (aka Paradise). Have you find any Quranic verses which suggest that there is sex in Paradise? If you have found any verse which explicitly states that there is sex in paradise, please share it in a post in this thread.
Are you referring to sex between a husband and wife? Or are you referring to sex outside of marriage?
Taro, please, I am not handing out any certificates of undertanding such as a diploma orsomething, it was amere recognition That I felt somereaders did get my idea. If you have seen in it more thna tht I congratulate you for seeing a lot, because I myself do not see it and did not see it.
I think you are right/correct when you say that there is nothing wrong with pleasure and that pleasure is a requirement for health. It seems that pleasure is a natural sensation which our body uses to encourage us to do things that are good for us (e.g. eating nutritious food). Thus, it seems that pleasure serves its purpose. But is pleasure a means to an end, or an end in itself? This question is worth pondering upon, in my opinion.
From my understanding of Al-Quran, pleasure is not haram (forbidden). And from my understanding of AQ, getting pleasure is not incompatible with the teachings of this divine/sacred book. That being said, the Quran seems to suggest that one should get pleasure only in a moderate way. From my knowledge, even water which is good for our bodies, can become dangerous if it's not used in moderation. There have been incidents where people have become hospitalized because they drank too much water.
Is the pleasure of seeing those we love and have not seen for a long time a means to an end or an end in itself?
Do ask that yourself when you arrange for the visit, when you look forward to it, when you are happy with anticipation?
If seeing your (I mean any person) dear ones is not conflicting with any other worthy aim you do not even think about it. If it was in conflict with another pursuit or need or obligation of yours then you would weight everything, every aspect of the questions and ponder as to what would be the most appropriate.
So we could do with evrything we pursue in our lives, and so it would be with any particular pleasure. It is a beautiful night, neither hot not cold, beautiful stars, beautiful sinlence broken only by the ocassional dog here and there, the be the owls, nd you take walk, the decision to take the walk makes such a walk a means or an end?
There are several verses in AQ which seem to suggest that the "pursuit of pleasure" is incompatible with the teachings of the Quran (see this post).
You must choose what word you are choosing for what. In all the ayas you mentione the word pleasure in english, when you go to the Qur'an, only in one there is the root r-D-y, in all the others the root used is t-r-f, which usually translates as luxury.
I won't be saying anything new to you if I say that luxury and pleasure are not by any strtch synonims. Take the walk by starlight I mention, no luxury, no need for anything expensive, just taking the opportunity and enjoy. No expenses, no standing, no need to be attended by anybody unless you are desable and depend on somebody for things like that... But undoubtedly it is a mighty pleasure. Pleasure an spending are not necessary linked.
So you quote the aya of God giving us good in this world and in the next.
You ask you to quote an aya where God speak about sex in the hereafter... I did mention all those ayas where company assorted company is spoken of... You are free to make of them whatever you want. Just as you are free to make of the wine and the fruits mentionned for paradise whatever you want. But the Qur'an does say without pointing to anything in particular that those blessed with paradise will say omething to the effect we have tasted that before...
We do not know how it will be, but if we think that fusion abandonment with anoher human being is a blessing should we straight out think that that or something in whih we recognize it will not be tasted in Paradise?
Can you quote an aya which says that we will not taste anything that bings us back the pleasure of fusion and abandonment with another human being?
If you (any person) feel that sex is a gift from God and a mithaq ghaliTh then whoever it is it must be your consort before God. And if you say you have a consort and you do not feel that you are contracting with her a mithaq ghalith, then it is not your consort before God and you are making a big, big lie.
Salaam
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Well said huruf.
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Peace huruf and everyone,
Taro, please, I am not handing out any certificates of undertanding such as a diploma orsomething, it was amere recognition That I felt somereaders did get my idea. If you have seen in it more thna tht I congratulate you for seeing a lot, because I myself do not see it and did not see it.
Well, I did not get your idea. And perhaps others didn't get it neither. So what is your idea? You are saying that you felt that some readers did get your idea. Can you explain your idea in a short and simple/easy way so that all of us can get your idea?
Is the pleasure of seeing those we love and have not seen for a long time a means to an end or an end in itself?
Do ask that yourself when you arrange for the visit, when you look forward to it, when you are happy with anticipation?
If seeing your (I mean any person) dear ones is not conflicting with any other worthy aim you do not even think about it. If it was in conflict with another pursuit or need or obligation of yours then you would weight everything, every aspect of the questions and ponder as to what would be the most appropriate.
You are creating a straw man argument (see the quote below).
post
I think that there is a difference between getting pleasure (as a means to an end) or pursuing pleasure (as an end in itself).
When I said the above, I said that the pursuit of pleasure is an end in itself. But I NEVER said that getting pleasure is NEVER an end to itself. Let me repeat that one more time I never said that getting pleasure is never an end to itself. Also, I said that "I think" that there is a difference between getting pleasure (as a means to an end)... I didn't say that "I know" that there is a difference between getting pleasure (as a means to an end). Hence I did not made an absolute statement. There is a difference between "I think", and "I know." Keep that in mind.
So we could do with evrything we pursue in our lives, and so it would be with any particular pleasure. It is a beautiful night, neither hot not cold, beautiful stars, beautiful sinlence broken only by the ocassional dog here and there, the be the owls, nd you take walk, the decision to take the walk makes such a walk a means or an end?
Well, I did NOT say that pleasure is NEVER an end in itself. However, I have asked the following question in my previous post
But is pleasure a means to an end, or an end in itself? This question is worth pondering upon, in my opinion.
As you can see in the question above, I did not say that pleasure is NEVER a means to an end. This is a fact. Hence your question is not relevant, in my opinion.
You must choose what word you are choosing for what. In all the ayas you mentione the word pleasure in english, when you go to the Qur'an, only in one there is the root r-D-y, in all the others the root used is t-r-f, which usually translates as luxury.
Have you used Classical Arabic dictionaries when you studied the root of ta ra fa (t-r-f)? Because it seems like you did not. It seems that you have only used corpus quran. But correct me if I am wrong (and please provide the meaning of t-r-f from Classical arabic dictionaries). That being said, you might be right regarding the word luxury being the "right translation" of that word in all the verses except in one of the verses (that I had shared in my post). However, I think one should have evidence from Classical Arabic dictionaries and read every word occurrence (i.e. cross-reference) before one takes a stance regarding this issue.
Even if the "pursuit of pleasures" is not incompatible with the teachings of the Quran, this doesn't mean that the "pursuit of pleasure" is a good thing, in my opinion. There are some people that hunt for fun. They don't hunt in order to bring food home to their families. The Quran don't explicitly state that hunting for fun is wrong. But this doesn't suggest that hunting for fun is not wrong. Because the Quran suggests that if something runs counter to reason it is incompatible with the teachings of the Quran (see verse 1690).
Quran 1690 BEHOLD, God enjoins justice, and the doing of good, and generosity towards fellow-men; and He forbids all that is shameful and all that runs counter to reason, as well as envy; He exhorts you so that you might bear in mind.
Keep in mind that I haven't said that getting pleasure is a bad thing or incompatible with the teachings of the Quran. I think that there is a difference between getting pleasure and choosing the "pursuit of pleasure" as a lifestyle.
Quran 4523 Have you seen the one who took his desire as his god, and God led him astray, despite his knowledge, and He sealed his hearing and his heart, and He made a veil on his eyes? Who then can guide him after God? Will you not remember?
Quran 4117-120 In His stead, they invoke only life?less symbols - thus invoking none but a rebellious Satan whom God has rejected for having said, "Verily, of Thy servants I shall most certainly take my due share, and shall lead them astray, and fill them with vain desires; and I shall command them - and they will cut off the ears of cattle ; and I shall command them - and they will corrupt God's creation!" But all who take Satan rather than God for their master do indeed, most clearly, lose all he holds out promises to them, and fills them with vain desires yet whatever Satan promises them is but meant to delude the mind.
You ask you to quote an aya where God speak about sex in the hereafter... I did mention all those ayas where company assorted company is spoken of... You are free to make of them whatever you want. Just as you are free to make of the wine and the fruits mentionned for paradise whatever you want. But the Qur'an does say without pointing to anything in particular that those blessed with paradise will say omething to the effect we have tasted that before...
Does the Quran explicitly state that we have tasted that before regarding sex? Yes or no?
Quran 225 And give good news to those who believe and do good works that they will have estates with rivers flowing beneath them. Every time they receive a provision of its fruit, they say "This is what we have been provisioned before," and they are given its likeness. And there they will have pure mates, and in it they will abide.
We do not know how it will be, but if we think that fusion abandonment with anoher human being is a blessing should we straight out think that that or something in whih we recognize it will not be tasted in Paradise?
The notion that there is sex in paradise, might be a fact. But we can only guess/assume, in my opinion. We can not know now for sure. Because there are NO quranic verses which explicitly state that there will be sex in the paradise.
Can you quote an aya which says that we will not taste anything that bings us back the pleasure of fusion and abandonment with another human being?
No. Because there are no quranic verses which explicitly state that there will NOT be sex in the paradise. Also, there are no quranic verses which explicitly state that there WILL be sex in the paradise. This is a FACT.
If you (any person) feel that sex is a gift from God and a mithaq ghaliTh then whoever it is it must be your consort before God. And if you say you have a consort and you do not feel that you are contracting with her a mithaq ghalith, then it is not your consort before God and you are making a big, big lie.
Well, I have never said that sex is not a gift from our creator and not a mithaq ghalith. If you think that I feel that sex is not a gift from God and a mithaq ghaliTh, then PROVIDE evidence which can support your claim. No offense intended huruf. But I think that one needs to get ones facts straight (that includes me). We should do our best to be objective and impartial, in my opinion.
FACT I have never said that sex is a bad thing in any of my posts in FM.
For all you know, I might believe that sex is a blessing and a very good thing if it's done inside of a marriage (between a husband and a wife). The muslim scholar/thinker G.A. Parwez suggests that sex is only for procreation (a higher purpose). But the muslim scholar/thinker Ziauddin Sardar suggests that a husband and wife can have sex (without intending to procreate). Is G.A Parwez right or Ziauddin Sardar? I don't know. And I haven't taken a stance regarding this issue yet. That being said, there seems to be a clue in a few verses regarding the Quranic stance on sex (see verse 2223 and 2187).
I asked you a question in my previous post. But you have not answered it yet. Perhaps you forgot to answer it. So let me ask that question one more time.
Are you referring to sex between a husband and wife? Or are you referring to sex outside of marriage?
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Well, I did not get your idea. And perhaps others didn't get it neither. So what is your idea? You are saying that you felt that some readers did get your idea. Can you explain your idea in a short and simple/easy way so that all of us can get your idea?
I did elaboragte it further bur it seems that it was of no vail to you and I do not think I can explain it any better.
Are you referring to sex between a husband and wife? Or are you referring to sex outside of marriage?
I was referring to sex full stop.
If you need at all cost to fill in the rest, I will not do that. If people do not consider that sex with another person is sacred, I do not think that adding the magical word "marriage" would moraly or spiritually add to them.
Legally of course, and usually mostly for the woman's sake and from the human legal point of view, she better take all precautions so that she is not taken advantage of, such as getting the proper Saduqat from the bridegroom.
Salaam
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If people do not consider that sex with another person is sacred, I do not think that adding the magical word "marriage" would moraly or spiritually add to them.
Legally of course, and usually mostly for the woman's sake and from the human legal point of view, she better take all precautions so that she is not taken advantage of, such as getting the proper Saduqat from the bridegroom.
Which brings forth another question what is marriage? Are arranged marriages and child marriages considered marriage? Just because some ritual took place, people ate together and imams/priests/rabbis showed up and executed the marriage, it somehow becomes a marriage? I believe marriage is the exact opposite of what it is considered. Quran keeps mentioning wife all day. Wife wife wife and wife. Adam had a wife according to Quran. Did any ritual take place for that to happen? Was there any imams, priests or rabbis present when adam got married to his wife? Was there any parties? Did adam sign any papers?
Marriage is simply a loving, peaceful, fair and long-term relationship between a man and a woman. If any these qualities are missing in a supposed marriage, then that is not a marriage. Just a stupid religious/cultural ritual. The connection needs to go both ways. You might fall in love with a person but if that person has no connection to you, then you simply cannot start a relationship. You will have to find someone you are compatible with. In arrange marriages and child marriages,this isn't the case.
It is all about money and family name. If the man in an arranged marriage has sex with this so called wife, then that is rape. It's isn't marriage.You cannot get married to several women either. Think of marriage as a series circuit. The circuit must be complete, in other words, you must be connected to each other. You cannot attempt to add another wife to this equation or else you'll break it.
Any abuse or dishonesty you inflict to your spouse breaks this circuit hence the marriage is void. It is a fine equation. This is marriage. A circuit that can only be made by the Creator.The Creator has gifted this equation/circuit with something called sex. This is the only time sex is permissible. This restriction was not made because the GOD is a dictator but for our own good. If you eat too much what happens? Obesity, diabetes, heart disease etc. We can benefit from The GOD's gifts or we can destroy ourselves with it. It is entirely up to us, in other words, free will.
I believe marriage has been hijacked by religion and culture. Marriage has been completely misunderstood. This magical word "marriage" does nothing but give an illusion to justify oppression and corruption. It does not make sex good, bad, dirty or sinful. When sex is taken out of this perfect equation, it becomes useless and harmful to both parties,both the oppressor and the victim. I'm not saying all couples who got married have their marriages void. It all depends on what was in their hearts. Only The Creator can see into their hearts and may determine whether or not this is a proper connection/equation AKA marriage.
Religious and cultural rituals have no value to The GOD. We need to put sex back to where it belongs, to this perfect equation/connection that only The GOD can make. Signing a piece of paper or having a priest, imam or rabbi does not create this perfect connection/equation AKA marriage. It does not make sex valid. Only The GOD can make that.Now we can ask ourselves, what is sex? is it dirty and sinful? Is it a bad and shameful desire? Do we get it in paradise? I think you can all answer those questions.
Peace
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Taro, you seem to assume that I am refuting something. I am not. I am not interested at all in refuting anything, whether with a man or with a straw or with anything else. I could not care less.
I bring up something I think may make sense. If it makes sense to you, good. If it does not, never mind. Nothing is lost.
But I am not interested in refuting anything at all whether it be you or any other. You want to win the argument, I really don't care. I do not get paid for winning arguments nor I am punished for not winning them. My ego is quite satisfactorily healthy and I am too fond of comfort to let anyhting like an argument for winning o loosing to spoil my day. There are enough real problems I am worried about to bother suffering about arguments.
I suppose you that you want to be thorough, proceed methodically and safely and of course that is praiseworthy.
However I don't think in these kind of questions one can be thorough in that way. People are all diffrent and at different stages in their journey through life, with different experiences. A text in any language when going through to another and through diffrent minds has to many possibilities of not behaving "methodically".
There is no absolutely abstract knowledge. All knowledge goes back to our ability to acknowledge it as such knowledge, to grasp it as something that brings light where there was none. We, most people are not magic lanterns that you push a button and glow.
Sometimes, or many times, we have to make our way in the dark and touch here and there, break our noses against something we did not count on.
As to sex, as I see it we should take very very seriousy the question about the mithaq ghaliDh. Lust is the opposite of the mithaq ghaliDh. I would say it is tearing to pieces that mizaq ghaliDh. We should think carefully of what we do and have very much self respect. What we do with others reflects what we do with ourselves. If we do not respect ourselves, we will not respet others, same with love same with most things.
Salaam
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Peace huruf,
No hard feelings.
I think you have written some interesting and thoughtful posts in this thread. And I appreciate your efforts.
Best wishes,
Taro H.
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Ladies and gentleman,
If anyone want to discuss the topic/subject of sex further, I suggest creating a new thread or discussing the subject/topic of sex in a past thread on FM. As far as I know, there are several old threads about the topic of sex on FM. The topic/subject of this thread is How to overcome the sin of lust/temptation. The topic/subject of this thread is not sex. Let's get this thread back on topic guys.
Thanks in advance.