THE TRUE QURANIC SHAHADA

[Jafar]

As for those of you who follow books other than the Quran and also follow the Quran, if you believe that there should be no other gods but/without God and that Muhammad (saas) is God's messenger and that he is true, then what is the problem? Your belief in these two items sets you apart, and makes you apart of a demographic that is not Hindu, not Jewish, and not Christian but Muslim despite having found truth in all of the scriptures of these people.

Why do you think there IS A NEED to set people apart?
Why do you think there IS A NEED to put a label on human as Muslim, Hindu, Jewish, Christian?

[As-Salaatayn]

Jafar,

Because God tells those of us who believe in the Quran to prefer each other and to form a community apart by taking each other as awliyaa' of each other. And that we should not prefer those who do not believe in the Quran over those who do. The labels only represent reality.

Salaam

[As-Salaatayn]

Man of Faith,

I have found that the term 'oracle' is not only cooler but more accurate.

a a person (as a priestess of ancient Greece) through whom a deity is believed to speak
b a shrine in which a deity reveals hidden knowledge or the divine purpose through such a person
c an answer or decision given by an oracle
2
a a person giving wise or authoritative decisions or opinions
b an authoritative or wise expression or answer

http//www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/oracle

Salaam

[reel]

Not really. Allah says that, and Allah knows everything (glorified is He). People just have faith in Allah. We can not verify that bad people go to Hell until we are dead. That's not quite the same thing as a prophecy really.

But isn't it like Quran gives certain examples of things that would lead us to hell?

Hell is a phenomenon which was invented much later and it did not truly exist in elder times. The first turn towards corruption was when the Jews spoke of a valley called GeHinnom, but they did not really know what they were talking about. This whole (physical) World is actually Gehennom, so right now you and me dwell in Gehennom. Our aim should be to get out of this mess and delusion and that is only possible by merging into the consciousness of Rabb, i.e. gain independence, become a recognized consciousness within or else one will remain among the dead (lifeless). One can think that people are alive in this World but in fact they are rather dead, swallowed by their own instincts in the Beast their soul is placed within. The only way is to go against the crowd and find their true self which is an image of Rabb.

In Genesis "Man was created in His image", i.e. the soul.

Be safe
Amenuel

Thank you for the explanation of MOF. I will have to research more on it. Haven't made up my mind. By the way, I am talking about GeHinnom. It is possible that they spoke of it just like that, but again, we can't deny the fact that they did receive message from God.

When it comes to hell, I would stick to what Quran says.

Hell should torture all the bad people without discrimination. But this is not the case in this world. Rothschilds, Bush family and the likes are having a pretty good time here.

peace

[Man_of_Faith]

Hi reel,

Quran says what I said depending on the interpreter. Gehennom is the word used to translate Hell and it not correct. There is no Hell in that regard but Hell is recurring exposure to this fate of living in this "cage". It is eternal for most people and getting into a bad habit is hard to get away from.

Obviously you see that evil people get what they deserve and the breaking down of their Spirit is fatal to them. It is harder and harder per negative cycle to find a way out since your blindness worsens. Try to look at certain totally absorbed people. Many people are not much more than an animal.

Be safe
Amenuel

[As-Salaatayn]

Jahannam is Hell and is NOT in this life. The Quran is clear about that.

[good_logic]

Peace ManOfFaith.

Qoran says "Gehenna" does not exist yet. Look at this "sectarian" translation of Qoran I am providing you with, confirming this

6917
The angels will be all around, and Your Lord's dominion will then encompass eight (universes).*

6918
On that day, you will be exposed, nothing of you can be hidden.

Now there is 7 universes according to Qoran, no "Gehenna" yet. Here is when "Gehenna" will be brought forth

8922
And your Lord comes, together with the angels in row after row.

8923
On that day, Gehenna will be brought forth. On that day, the human being will remember - but what a remembrance - it will be too late.

8924
He will say, "Oh, I wish I prepared for my (eternal) life."

But of course you will reply to me with another "Cock and bull" story, that has nothing to do with Qoran, but only confirms your "imaginary Qoran" that you have with you. Your own Qoran that you claim says some weird and far fetched stories/ideas/..,Some of these ideas are worse than what you are claiming these sectarians are coming up with.

And you say ,you have strong evidence that your understanding is well researched and evidenced.
I must be blind, dumb and deaf to your clear evidence brother.

Sorry but the more posts you write, the deeper into this "imaginary Qoran"you are getting.

All is left for me to say is this "Gehenna " of yours is giving some evil criminals the best deal.

Bring on this "Gehenna " of yours some will say.I say( Like GOD advises me to say)

2565
And they say, "Our Lord, spare us the agony of "Gehenna"; its retribution is horrendous.

2566
"It is the worst abode; the worst destiny."

Yes brother, I hope both you and me are spared
GOD bless you.
Peace.

[Man_of_Faith]

Jahannam is Hell and is NOT in this life. The Quran is clear about that.

That depends on whose understanding of things you seek. Quran is clear, but not the people who tried to understand it.

Hint is that (Jahannom) is based on the same root as (jann) which is the word that people claim to refer to some supernatural being called Jinn. In truth Jann means bodily, something's exterior covering. The whole word with 4 letters Jahannom is descriptive and refers to "attachment to bodily" quite morphologically, it only takes some real Arabic language skill but mostly logic.

For the structure of the word Jahannom, (heh) does not make up the base form of any root but (alif), (waw) and (heh) all may substitute each other based on the grammar and word form you seek. Jahannom the word is like an acronym however and descriptive and you need to know the innate meanings of Semitic letters.

You get into Hell for messing up in this World (or rather remain in it), but you are also already there. A person who is permanently in Hell means they keep a Body continually. In Roman Catholic belief there is a Purgatory and briefly it can be said that Jahannom is a kind of purgatory albeit the word Jahannom does not say anything other than that one is attached to the bodily. This place is not for rejoice but better get out of it quickly.

Be safe
Amenuel

[Man_of_Faith]

Peace ManOfFaith.

Qoran says "Gehenna" does not exist yet. Look at this "sectarian" translation of Qoran I am providing you with, confirming this

6917
The angels will be all around, and Your Lord's dominion will then encompass eight (universes).*

6918
On that day, you will be exposed, nothing of you can be hidden.

Now there is 7 universes according to Qoran, no "Gehenna" yet. Here is when "Gehenna" will be brought forth

8922
And your Lord comes, together with the angels in row after row.

8923
On that day, Gehenna will be brought forth. On that day, the human being will remember - but what a remembrance - it will be too late.

8924
He will say, "Oh, I wish I prepared for my (eternal) life."

But of course you will reply to me with another "Cock and bull" story, that has nothing to do with Qoran, but only confirms your "imaginary Qoran" that you have with you. Your own Qoran that you claim says some weird and far fetched stories/ideas/..,Some of these ideas are worse than what you are claiming these sectarians are coming up with.

And you say ,you have strong evidence that your understanding is well researched and evidenced.
I must be blind, dumb and deaf to your clear evidence brother.

Sorry but the more posts you write, the deeper into this "imaginary Qoran"you are getting.

All is left for me to say is this "Gehenna " of yours is giving some evil criminals the best deal.

Bring on this "Gehenna " of yours some will say.I say( Like GOD advises me to say)

2565
And they say, "Our Lord, spare us the agony of "Gehenna"; its retribution is horrendous.

2566
"It is the worst abode; the worst destiny."

Yes brother, I hope both you and me are spared
GOD bless you.
Peace.

Hello good logic,

It does not really say it the way you translate or found a translation. It explains the function/nature of Jahannom.

Besides you can invalidate the translation already before finishing reading the first line of the supplied second translation.

And your Lord comes, together with the angels in row after row.

Who, after reading that, can possibly believe in that there is any truthfulness in the subsequent translation? Do you really think that "the Lord" has to come when he is already omnipresently here? That is a translation based on (in) a very hedonistic mind.

But of course you will reply to me with another "Cock and bull" story, that has nothing to do with Qoran

It is what you came up with that has nothing to do with Quran and was a "Cock and bull" story by some people who were completely unknowing of what they were doing and did every person a disservice every since.

Some of these ideas are worse than what you are claiming these sectarians are coming up with.

What can possibly be worse than what these sectarians came up with?

What I tell people is so simple and logical it barely needs any further explanation. Basically all I say is that their Body is their major problem with its instinct and that their true destiny lies within the Rabb. I think it is very sound advice actually.

And you say ,you have strong evidence that your understanding is well researched and evidenced.
I must be blind, dumb and deaf to your clear evidence brother.

Relatively frequently I delve into a linguistic analysis of individual Arabic words and I have frequently given the reason for the meaning of words and the most recent one was in the previous post. And I have shown even samples of Arabic translation with explanation included. That people do not accept it is not my fault. I only work harder to make sure I increase its appeal and presentation as I know it is fundamentally correct. Quran teaches me pedagogy and psychology. I do feel sorry for you not able to appreciate my work, but I cannot do anything more than try.

The most 'strong evidence' is however in the reason and logic in what it is that I propagate. That it has backup by a profound scripture is a great advantage (and comfort for me). Like I wrote in a previous post "It is incredibly hard to miss that Satan is your very own body's instinctive drive". Can it get any simpler than that?

This way the only remedy against Satan is by making sure that you grow your personal determination and conscious awareness... and thus merge within Rabb. Simply said as Jesus said "Separate your mind from your body", do not let that thing influence your actions.

All is left for me to say is this "Gehenna " of yours is giving some evil criminals the best deal.

This is due to your ignorance. Why would you say it is a "best deal" to be forced back and additionally exposed to a fate befit your past actions? Have you not ever beheld the World and observed the state it is in? Would you consider that the beasts in ISIS (Daesh) are fortunate? No, they are great victims of their own misdeeds, completely blinded by the Flesh. Having to live in this World at all and bound to this instinctive beast is humiliating enough. Being a slave to the beast you are within is the worst kind of condition one can be in. I would love not to be that kind of victim.

Due to your physical perception of things rather than abstract you miss the point and who the real victims are. They have no future and they do not really exist and they made themselves irrelevant. Do you think anything in this World has any real relevance at all except what you make of your inner self. They suffer consequences without even being consciously aware of it themselves.

2565
And they say, "Our Lord, spare us the agony of "Gehenna"; its retribution is horrendous.

2566
"It is the worst abode; the worst destiny."

Yes brother, I hope both you and me are spared

I say the same, I wish for us to be spared Gehenna, but there is absolutely no kind of purpose in letting something burn for eternity. It is easier just to face deletion and how would you feel about being told about having your soul deleted? You would be embarrassed but soon be no more. However, lifeless people are not much more than non-existent, they are undeveloped.

We can at least say we must do similar things as to avoid Gehenna.

Be safe
Amenuel

[good_logic]

Peace MOF.

Like I said earlier, I expected an answer from you . So thanks for that.

Also it is a mix and match stuff,quote

I say the same, I wish for us to be spared Gehenna, but there is absolutely no kind of purpose in letting something burn for eternity. It is easier just to face deletion and how would you feel about being told about having your soul deleted? You would be embarrassed but soon be no more. However, lifeless people are not much more than non-existent, they are undeveloped.

Oh, I do not agree with you.
First, if your soul is deleted,how can you be embarrassed? Does this not mean you will not exist?
Second, nobody knows what will happen, the "mathal" of the description in Qoran is just that, an allegory. You and I will have to wait to see what "Gehenna" is/will look like, because we will see it all of us

1971
Every single one of you must see it; this is an irrevocable decision of your Lord.

1972
Then we rescue the righteous, and leave the transgressors in it, humiliated.

Brother, at the moment neither you nor me have any idea what "Gehenna" will look like or what will really happen there, apart from none of us would wish to be there.
And that s I can say about it for now.
So over and out.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

[Man_of_Faith]

You can be embarrassed as the last thing you make for an expression.

I know Gehennom already as we live in Gehennom already -)

[Abdul-Hadi]

Greetings and Peace, all group

http//www.free-minds.org/true-testimony

tldr version the "popular" Shahada isn't found in AQ, mentions a Prophet (peace to them all) alongside ALLAH, bears witness to something that wasn't personally witnessed, and promotes one Prophet above other Prophets.

Possible alternative, should one desire a Shahada (not a requirement found in AQ)

2131 When his Lord said to him "Submit," he said "I submit to the Lord of the worlds."

May ALLAH see fit to Guide all seekers.

peace

~Abdul-Hadi

[As-Salaatayn]

Man of Faith,

Jahannam does not come from Janna. Nor are you more qualified than those who research, studied and pored over the Arabic language to give us the meanings of its words, roots grammar and patterns. Your conjecture is just not enough, no matter how you try to couch it.

Mu'jam Mufradaat Al-faadh Al-Quran says (my translation) on page 115

.

"It is a name for the lit fire of God. It is said it is an Arabized word of Persian origin. (The Persian version being) Jihnaam. And God knows best."

If I have offended you with this truth forgive me. This is one of the things that I lament the most about Quranists...the linguistic license and conjecture. It is not acceptable. You cannot take the pieces that you like and fabricate the rest according to your likings. That is dishonest and false. God does not like the dishonest, the false and those who conjecture.

Salaam

[csmith]

If exploring the deeper subtleties of the Quran leads to conclusions that conflict with the basic tenants of Islam, it should be obvious to any Muslim that those enquiries have gone awry.

We know that the Quran is clear and complete, and that it confirms what came before it, correcting any innovations that have crept into the religious practices of the People of the Book. From this, we can be sure the basic tenants of the Abrahamic faith are sound. They are reiterated in the Quran, not corrected.

As Muslims, we know that people are created from nothing, by Allah, and then they live till a time that is known only to Him. Then they die, and then comes judgement. By the mercy of Allah, some enter Paradise, and the rest burn in a fire that is fuelled by men and stone. Therein they shall abide forever. People do not come back, over and over, until they get it right. The concept of reincarnation couldn't be more alien to Islam, Christianity or Judaism.

Any religion that teaches reincarnation rejects some of the most fundamental axioms of Islamic faith. We live, we die, then comes judgement, which leads to either eternal Paradise or eternal damnation. That is the meaning of life.

To attempt to convince anyone that the Quran teaches reincarnation by subtle twisting of the semantics of certain Arabic terms ignores the central message of the scripture as a whole.

[As-Salaatayn]

Csmith,

I agree, however I do believe that we were all re-incarnated once, after our first episode as Adam and Eve in the garden. Otherwise everyone only being taken to account for what their own hands have wraught would be cancelled out when it comes to our existence on the earth. With that said you are completely correct when you say that after this life comes our being risen up and judged to hell or paradise. May he protect us from the Hell fire. That is extremely clear, even if I disagree with you that the Quran is always clear; because that would go against the existence of mutashaabihaat verses and our obligation to take the BEST meanings which means that there will be some possibilities in meaning that are not the best. But that doesn't mean that we distort the language to get what WE THINK is best.

Salaam,

[csmith]

Salaam As-Salaatayn,

I don't get why you think we we're reincarnated at all. Nothing is cancelled out by living once, then dying. You seem to be talking about something like Original Sin, but I didn't understand your logic at all to be honest. We do not inherit sin in Islam.

I believe the Quran is clear. It specifically states it is a "clear and complete guide". It instructs us on how to understand its verses, to make its guidance clear. There may be verses that a person doesn't appreciate as much as others, but it offers clear guidance to anyone who reads it with the right mindset.

Allah knows best.

Salaam,

[As-Salaatayn]

Thanks Csmith,

I'll put this into points.

1. I believe that Adam and Eve were all human beings who started as one soul and then were broken into two. Then we were broken up into many when we were kicked out of paradise and sent to the earth for a time.

2. Quranically, it is not just that we are here on earth paying for our forefather and foremother's crime. Therefore we must be Adam and Eve as well. The way Arabic describes tribes Banoo Israel and and Israel are used for the same people. I believe that Adam is us before our time on earth and Banoo Adam represents all of us here on earth. But essentially Adam = Banoo Adam.

3. Original sin is real. Most Muslims reject it. But we would not be here on earth being tested if it were not real.

4. Re-incarnation is the same as being raised from the dead. There is not much of a difference in meaning. In our case. We were once Adam. Then we were split into Adam and Eve. Then God killed us and caused us to be reborn on this earth to be given a chance for redemption after having disobeyed him in Paradise. In doing this he split Adam and Eve up into many, many, many individuals. I believe we were one unified composite soul before this, just as all of our cells are individual cells yet they are one being at the same time.

5. We were reincarnated into the dunyaa. Then we will die and we will be reincarnated again in the sense that God will create us again as we are now, judge us and send us to paradise or hell.

Salaam

[csmith]

Salaam As-Salaatayn,

Why would you believe that Adam and Eve were broken into many different people? Where did you get that information from?

I don't think we are "here on earth paying for our forefather and foremother's crime". We are just here being tested, not being punished. To conclude that we must be Adam and Eve because we are here being punished is a massive leap based on a misunderstanding. Where in the Quran does it say that life is a punishment? That is a Roman Catholic idea.

Original sin is not Islamic, but in an attempt to make it fit, you have reinvented the story of Adam and Eve (and the concept of reincarnation) so now our original ancestors are reincarnated as billions of people, and they had no descendants??

No one knows what happened to Adam and Eve beyond what we are told in the Quran. Maybe they were split into billions of people, maybe Allah created more people after them. We don't know, but we are warned against speculating about things we didn't witness and aren't told about in the Quran.

A lot of people in this forum seem to seek out mysteries for the specific purpose of filling in the gaps with stuff they came up with all by themselves. As Muslims, we should just accept that there is a lot that we will never know. Once we start filling in the gaps with our own stories, borrowing bits from Christians and Jews along the way, we end up no different to Sunnis.

[As-Salaatayn]

Csmith,

Think about it. Let's take the most common story

God creates a man and called him Adam. Then he creates a spouse for him which most call Eve. Both are placed in paradise.

They sin against God and disobey him. So God ejects them from Paradise and sends them to earth. That means that being on earth is a punishment or a time for redemption for them to be judged for their actions here on earth.

While on earth they have children who had nothing to do with Adam and Eve's sin and why they were kicked out of paradise. But then why do they have to go through the same trials and tribulations as Adam and Eve did on earth after being ejected from Paradise for their sin? Why are they not taken directly up to paradise? Why do they have to suffer the consequence of what Adam and Eve committed? Think about that. Doesn't the Quran say that every soul receives the consequence of what it earns itself and that no one bears the burden of another?

Let's not deal with what is Islamic or not. Let's deal with that is Quranic. Catholics don't have to be wrong about everything because they are Catholics, do they? Btw, I have never been a Catholic. I was raised in a Muslim family. But this is just logic. Think about it.

Salam

As for my filling of gaps. Take a look

41
SAHIH INTERNATIONAL
O mankind, fear your Lord, who created you from one soul and created from it its mate and dispersed from both of them many men and women. And fear Allah , through whom you ask one another, and the wombs. Indeed Allah is ever, over you, an Observer.

711

And We have certainly created you, , and given you form. Then We said to the angels, "Prostrate to Adam"; so they prostrated, except for Iblees. He was not of those who prostrated

And there is much more for those who carefully read.

Salaam

[As-Salaatayn]

Csmith,

I feel your frustration with this forum. I have come and gone often because of being frustrated with the licenses many take. I will just say this. I have been studying Classical Arabic for some time. I was actually an Arabic linguist in the Navy, and have benefited greatly from W. Wrights A grammar of the Arabic language, Lisanul-Arab, Taj Al-'Arous and Mu'jam Mufradaat Al-faadhul-Qur'an, and Al-Munjid Feel-Lugha is also a great resource. I have recanted on many of my beliefs that I formed as a Quranist in the past, especially as I became more and more versed in Classical Arabic. I continue to peruse books like sharh- Al-Ajurrumiyyah and others. This summer I was trying to get through Ibn Hisham's Seerah in Arabic and Az-Zamakhshari's Al-Kash-shaaf, and tackle the extremely difficult poetry in both, but especially in The Seerah. But alas, my schedule and my life got complicated. My stance is this. I will take an opinon if I think I have good evidence for what I believe. I will not make an opinion on something that I don't have enough information on and I will gladly change my opinions if I come to find that I am wrong. For instance, for some time I took the stance that Hajj was not to Makkah, a stance that many other Quranists here took after I took it. I have recanted. Much of the linguistic mauling that goes on here I used to be guilty of until I became more versed in Classical Arabic. I actually went into the Navy to continue that education to help this Quranist movement. But this has proved in vain, as the Quranist movement has been totally usurped by faux Arabic linguists who falsify at will with very limited knowledge of Classical Arabic, those who think that mish mashing translations and context guessing is good enough, Libertines, Feminists, conspiracy-theorists and anti-traditionalists. It is hot mess, in short. So please don't lump me with the rest here although I may be guilty with some things. Unfortunately, spaces like these are the only places where even those of us who are well-versed Quranists can interact without feeling the heat.

As I study the Quran more and more, taking into account the Classical Arabic I see how Muslims HAVE added a lot but they have kept much of the spirit of the Quran. I have seen that much of what they do is Quranically based although not obligatory. I have seen it is wrong for Quranists to condemn other Muslims for adding to the religion as long as the practices are not anti-Quranic and not considered obligatory. I have seen that many Muslims try to slip corruption, occidentalism, libertinism and female chauvinism into the religion under the guise of Quran-only when they are not true students of the Quran but want to take advantage of what they see as a lack of detailed rulings in the Quran. Many conclusions are inevitable if we carefully study the Quran, like women not being able to pray during menstraution because they are not in a state of tahaarah. Yet Quranists here will flip backwards if you say such a thing and accuse you of twisting the Quran if you just add 2 + 2.

It seems that the goal of most Quranists is not to actually study, practice and live the Quran in every way possible but to make the Quran a religion acceptable to Modern Greco-Roman (Western) tastes. I am not one to try to change what my book says. But try to act like everything the book is obviously clear and if it isn't obvious then it is a fabrication is nonsense and goes against what the Quran says about itself.