THE TRUE QURANIC SHAHADA
-
Anyways, I will leave you to your sect and I do not seek quarrel. You are more absorbed with doctrine than to actually reflect upon your origin and more about the behavioral part of what you call "Islam" and why you should follow the instructions relayed by the prophets. Those who know best know that it is to combat your own instinct, or rather the one from the body you have been forced to be attached to which is not the real you. Every commandment's innate reason for existing is not primarily obedience to God but for your own sanity. The more you stumble on every stone the more absorbed in this world you will become. The commandments are sincere advice and not dogmatic law. The one who has learned anything seeks detachment from typical influence of their own body. Be wary of the primate.
Be safe
Amenuel -
To me, when I thought of the christian concept of inherited original sin, it sounded very odd. But later, I have realized that it only sounded odd because I thought of it as someone committing a sin and then subsequent, innocent generations having to pay for it, unfairly. This way of looking at it assumed that all subsequent generations of Adam and Eve (assuming they were two individuals from whom the rest of humanity came) were/are disconnected from Adam and Eve in every sense except DNA. Now, I find this way of looking at it not very "enlightened".
There is no original sin, Zulf. We were placed in the Flesh as a matter of testing and the sins are ones done by you consciously or unconsciously depending on your mental capability. Your Rabb created your Spirit as a kind of "seed" in His own image and put you inside a contradiction which is your very Body and this is where you are right now at this very moment and you can either cultivate your own Spirit to make it develop or you can have it diminish, consciously or unconsciously, because you did not care about it and chose to be absorbed in this World, this contradiction. You kept "eating from the fruit of the tree" rather than abstaining from it. In partiality the "account of Eden" is yet truthful but there are many interpretation errors. Satan that entices is the Body's built-in instinctive drive and not some kind of snake/serpent and eat entices to "eat from the fruit" constantly. It is a kind of allegory. "Eating from the tree" (allegorical) is to indulge in this World and be involved in its vanity.
That the Bodies emerge or are manifested when they are "eating from the tree" is because then they will be aware of its instinctive drive and will do actions with their Bodies in their involvement in this World. The wise reader of this ancient text would take it highly for its metaphorical nature.
Sadly, not so bright clerics and scholars have messed up and given their own hedonistic viewpoints and they have tried to add a hedonistic 1 + 1 that because they origin from a hedonistic paradise this is their return. That is not at all true from any point of view. The "eating from the tree" and "discovering their bodies" is EXACTLY what they are NOT supposed to do and their reward is also NOT having to succumb to the temptation of "eating from the tree" once the testing interim is over and they are released from the influence of Satan's (the instinct's) temptation. All one has to do is avoid Satan; it might sound simple but it is in fact not. First of all they will not live "normal" lives and they will have to endure a massive amount of peer pressure, not to mention if they are handsome/sweet and the opposite gendered Body will charm them or they realize their own instinctive sexuality and live that out in full.
By your sins you "punish" yourself and there is no God punishing you but "what goes around comes around". The decaying of your Spirit you are yourself responsible for and no one else. The main consequence is merely that you become lifeless in Spirit, you do not really exist. That is the worst kind of condition I think one can be in, to not really exist, and the worst part is that the people are generally not bright enough to realize it either because they are so utterly deluded. And the deluding factor is your own Body, the "Flesh" causes delusion on you, because you basically become it and the Flesh is not alive but dead, it is like an automated process.
Christians are not entirely wrong when they believe in sons (or daughters) of God and they were not the only ones either. One just have to put it in the right perspective. Each person contains in this world of two parts; Body and Spirit, and God is Father (Generator) of the Spirit (because He created the Spirit) while a Body is father of the Body and its physical features have no real relationship to God at all that way. It is not much different from how an animal reproduces and an animal has no Spirit. God created the Body too obviously albeit spiritless, but that was as a spiritless beast acting according to a predictable pattern and this is every person's trap and contradiction which they must not succumb to.
Be safe
Amenuel -
I was actually an Arabic linguist in the Navy
Which country's Navy?
About Adam and his spouse, I haven't drawn any conclusion about whether they were the first humans because of verses such as
And, when your Lord said to the angels, "Indeed, I will make upon the earth a successive authority." They said, "Will You place upon it one who causes corruption therein and sheds blood, while we declare Your praise and sanctify You?" Allah said, "Indeed, I know that which you do not know."230It is He who has made you successors upon the earth. And whoever disbelieves - upon him will be his disbelief. And the disbelief of the disbelievers does not increase them in the sight of their Lord except in hatred; and the disbelief of the disbelievers does not increase them except in loss.3539
-
Man of Faith,
I will just say two things.
You said
"It is like saying and have nothing to do with each other"
This quote of yours shows that you have almost no knowledge of Classical Arabic grammar and forms. Please read the books that I recommended in my previous post to Mr. Smith. The addition of alif and noon in a way that doesn't imply dual is a known wazn. It can imply the informational noun as well as a strong active form. Hungry is jaw3aan, angry is ghadbaan, thirsty is dham'aan or ghatshaan and I can go on and on. But jahannam shares no known wazn that would add a haa into the middle of the word or add a meem at the end. I have never seen a wazn like this. You have clearly made this up. Check W. Wrights Grammar of an Arabic Language and his sections on Noun Measures and Forms. The informational nouns are 3irfaan (knowledge) and ghufraan (forgiveness.)
As for that Arabic/Aramaic Semitic stuff...I'll just say this. You cannot define Spanish words using Latin and you cannot define Italian words using Spanish. As someone who studied Portuguese and Spanish the false cognates are abundant. All Romance languages come from Latin and are forms of Latin but they are their own languages, separate from each other and separate from Latin. The same goes for Hebrew, Arabic, Aramaic and Amharic and whatever their Proto-Semitic mother language was.
Case closed brother. I hope you can see the light. Studying the Quran is not about Semitic etymology. Studying the Quran is about acquiring the correct CLASSICAL ARABIC meaning of its words and duly applying them with the principles of CLASSICAL ARABIC grammar and syntax. It is NOT about finding some illusive PROTO-SEMITIC meaning of a root and applying it to the Quran or trying to act like Arabic and Aramaic cognates are interchangeable. We should NEVER act like we can substitute the meaning in one language for the word in another. This is a FRAUDULENT way of trying to influence the Quran's meanings.
Salaam
-
Which country's Navy?
About Adam and his spouse, I haven't drawn any conclusion about whether they were the first humans because of verses such as
And, when your Lord said to the angels, "Indeed, I will make upon the earth a successive authority." They said, "Will You place upon it one who causes corruption therein and sheds blood, while we declare Your praise and sanctify You?" Allah said, "Indeed, I know that which you do not know."230It is He who has made you successors upon the earth. And whoever disbelieves - upon him will be his disbelief. And the disbelief of the disbelievers does not increase them in the sight of their Lord except in hatred; and the disbelief of the disbelievers does not increase them except in loss.3539
There are ayas where those in the Garden are spoken of as distinctly plural. adam is the species not the male or the individual. As such species it is handled as singular or the couple of the species as dual.
Salaam
-
Salaam As-Salaatayn,
You keep going back to one point in particular that I completely disagree on. Your logic is basically that Adam and Eve were sent to Earth as a punishment, so being on Earth must be a punishment for us too, and so we must be born with some original sin, else we are being punished for nothing. This is faulty logic and it underpins the rest of your beliefs about Adam and Eve.
Some people are born with horrible illnesses, while others are born into poverty, but these can not be punishments. If they were, they would be equal - we would all be punished equally for the same original sin. In fact, life is just not fair.
The justice that brings fairness comes once we are dead. It does not matter whether life deals you good cards or bad ones. Each individual has their own journey to make. In the afterlife, we will be treated justly, and any disparities in this world are fully accounted for.
You might lead an enjoyable life, like many people here do, or it might be horrific, like a child born to suffer until an early death. Neither of those lives are rewards or punishments though. They are always tests. Everyone has their own test which is unique to them. Only Allah appreciates the subtleties of these deeply complex existences, and He will consider everything of relevance when we are judged.
Adam and Eve were banished from Eden as a punishment, and according to a plan. Allah always knew what they would do, as Allah is not bound by time, waiting to find out what happens in the end. Time is part of Creation. He knows everything, always and all at once. We have free will, but Allah does not need to wait to see what we will opt to do, as He always knows everything, and as such, it is trivial for Him to plan for us to end up in exactly the situation we find ourselves in, which is meant to test us.
This is a world of trials and tribulations, and we were always going to end up here almost immediately. The angels foresaw what would happen, but only Allah understood the reason why it was to happen. That is an example of why we should not try to second guess His reasons.
Whenever I come across someone promoting original ideas, I always start by considering how this fits into the religion that we already have. Anything radically different is safe to dismiss as the product of that individual's own ramblings. The Quran is a clear and complete guide. We can just read it and accept the message it presents. Any claim that is at odds with the clear and obvious message of the Quran is not Quranic.
Many people on here try and promote unusual interpretations of words or passages, or poorly tested chains of logic, ignoring the basic fact that the guidance is clear. The Quran never requires complex and controversial linguistic or logical (or numerological) exercises for its guidance to be understood. Of course, the Quran contains mysteries. Maybe someone else will be guided by them. Maybe they are there for some other reason. Our job is not to make perfect sense of every aspect of reality. Our job is to be Muslims, and the Quran helps us to do that by guiding those that Allah wishes to guide by it.
-
Csmith,
I think you should re-read what you wrote and then think about it.
Salaam.
-
Or it is you who have no knowledge of Classical Arabic as-salatiin,
What I wrote makes perfect sense.
But we are all allowed to have opinions and it is YOUR opinion that I do not know Arabic.
Be safe
Amenuel -
Csmith,
Consider this, the Quran says that all things come from God, good and bad. It also says that the bad that we suffer here in this life is from our own deeds. It says that God tries us and it says that God punishes us. But can a trial not also be a punishment and a punishment a trial. If God wants us to turn away from evil through the bad that happens to us in this life then that must indeed be the case. Would you like verses?
And surely We shall try you with something of fear and hunger, and loss of wealth and lives and crops; but give glad tidings to the patient, Who says, when afflicted with calamity ?To Allah We belong, and to Him is our return? They are those on whom (descend) Blessings from Allah, and Mercy, and they are the ones that receive guidance. (Al-Baqarah 2155-157)
In another verse, Allah Almighty says
He Who created Death and Life, that He may try which of you is best in deed and He is the Exalted in Might, Oft-Forgiving. (Al-Mulk 672)
Whatever misfortune happens to you, is because of the things your hands have wrought, and for many (of them) He grants forgiveness. (Ash-Shura 4230)
2211 And there is, too, among befalls him, he is satisfied with Him; but if a trial assails him, he turns away utterly, losing this world and the life to come this, indeed, is a loss beyond compare!
4731 and most certainly We shall try you all, so that We might mark out those of you who strive hard and are patient in adversity for We shall put to a test all your assertions.
518 The Jews and the Christians say "We are the children of Allah and His beloved ones." Ask them, "Why then does He punish you for your sins? Nay! In fact you are human beings like others which He has created. He forgives whom He pleases and He punishes whom He pleases. To Allah belongs the sovereignty of the heavens and the earth and all that is between them, and to Him is the final refuge."
Note that 518 can be saying "Why is he punishing you for your sins?."
Salaam -
http//corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=blw
This life is our second chance. Not our final punishment, but a punishment that serves as a trial. God can raise our ranks or lower them as he wills with how he tries us here, and it is our choice to hold tight to him or to deviate. If this life were not a time for redemption we would have been created for paradise. It makes no sense for us to suffer the same fate as Adam and Eve, who when first created were created for paradise and were only sent to the earth as a trial and a period of redemption.
Salaam
-
Some people are born with horrible illnesses, while others are born into poverty, but these can not be punishments. If they were, they would be equal - we would all be punished equally for the same original sin. In fact, life is just not fair.
Your logic is ok, but only under certain assumptions that themselves may not be valid. Like
Who says we are all equally blind? Why would everyone's punishment or test be the same if we are blind to varying degrees? The "original sin" may be same for all in type, but may differ in extent and degree.The justice that brings fairness comes once we are dead. It does not matter whether life deals you good cards or bad ones. Each individual has their own journey to make. In the afterlife, we will be treated justly, and any disparities in this world are fully accounted for.
Indeed. We all have personal journeys,.. and what does that tell us? It tells us that there is a variable that differes in value between people. How could this express itself? Perhaps that we are dealt different cards. Different tests.
I do agree that there is justice in all that is dealt to us. Perhaps we just don't understand the system of justice in play.
You might lead an enjoyable life, like many people here do, or it might be horrific, like a child born to suffer until an early death. Neither of those lives are rewards or punishments though. They are always tests. Everyone has their own test which is unique to them. Only Allah appreciates the subtleties of these deeply complex existences, and He will consider everything of relevance when we are judged.
If the test involves suffering, couldn't we call it a punishment (with built-in blessing)? Why are we tested at all? Isn't it because we have defaulted at some point in some aspect? Wouldn't the test then be both test, reward, punishment and blessing, all in one? Obviously life can be horrible. Why be put to such things just for being tested? "No hard feelings, the horrors are not a punishment, just a test". Nope, I'm not convinced.
In any case, perhaps we could say that the test will become what we make of it. It can take the shape of a punishment if we sow such seeds, and it could be really developing and good, if we sow seeds like that.... all while the test is going on.
Peace
-
Zulf,
The original sin version does not add up. We are all born in very different conditions and it would be very unfair that some people are born in poverty, starvation and suffering while some are not if there is just one original same sin in each case. It does not help to claim it has to do with individual testing because it is immensely unfair to expose certain people to great pain while some are not.
I personally find that our spirits grow with evolution and we have an ultimate goal of finding a way out and that is by developing the Spirit so much that it exceeds this Word. We grow under delusion so to say. The World itself is the test and whether we realize we are better than it or succumb to it because we did not use logic and reason to contemplate.
I do see no problem with that humans have evolved throughout history because it is okay with my "theory" compared to sectarian religion. The Spirit lasts while the Body goes in cycles. Either the Spirit develops or it vanishes in a World that was designed to corrupt. Troublemakers in the World are generally said decayed Spirits that are not much more than the animals they are in.
In the Biblical Gospels Jesus is seen healing a blind person while saying "You are forgiven". Why is he saying that? It is as if his blindness is a consequence of something and he says that for a person born blind. There are many hints to confirm the concept of reincarnation in the Gospel testimonies.
I find many logical problems with the typical sectarian doctrine of one death and one resurrection either into Heaven or Hell. Even the traditional interpretation of Hell does not make sense. It gives God the desire of revenge and it has no use as it does not lead into anything useful. It is making God primitive.
Be safe
Amenuel -
Zulf,
The original sin version does not add up. We are all born in very different conditions and it would be very unfair that some people are born in poverty, starvation and suffering while some are not if there is just one original same sin in each case. It does not help to claim it has to do with individual testing because it is immensely unfair to expose certain people to great pain while some are not.
I personally find that our spirits grow with evolution and we have an ultimate goal of finding a way out and that is by developing the Spirit so much that it exceeds this Word. We grow under delusion so to say. The World itself is the test and whether we realize we are better than it or succumb to it because we did not use logic and reason to contemplate.
I do see no problem with that humans have evolved throughout history because it is okay with my "theory" compared to sectarian religion. The Spirit lasts while the Body goes in cycles. Either the Spirit develops or it vanishes in a World that was designed to corrupt. Troublemakers in the World are generally said decayed Spirits that are not much more than the animals they are in.
In the Biblical Gospels Jesus is seen healing a blind person while saying "You are forgiven". Why is he saying that? It is as if his blindness is a consequence of something and he says that for a person born blind. There are many hints to confirm the concept of reincarnation in the Gospel testimonies.
I find many logical problems with the typical sectarian doctrine of one death and one resurrection either into Heaven or Hell. Even the traditional interpretation of Hell does not make sense. It gives God the desire of revenge and it has no use as it does not lead into anything useful. It is making God primitive.
Be safe
AmenuelMostly agree.. heaven and hell doesn't make sense..
Instead of seeing living on this earth as a "test" (where the test result are already known in the first place by the tester)
My view now is more towards living on this earth as a "journey" for the 'spirit' / 'consciousness'...Human made mistake.. and through mistake they learn..
That's also the basic fundamental of scientific method.. create hypothesis.. test it until it failed and the hypothesis proven to be incorrect. Learn from the failure and create new (and better) hypothesis.. and test it again.. it failed.. learn from it and create better hypothesis.. and so on..
A soul / spirit might experience multiple lives... and not necessarily following the linear path of time.. (From past to present) and / or not necessarily on this earth or on this universe. Through each live the soul shall learn from their mistake.
This universe / this reality is merely a 'virtual world' (which can be constructed and destroyed and modified and copied by it's creator with ease) as easy as you press Ctrl-C and Ctrl-V on the computer..
-
Hello Jafar,
I agree with your thinking and you are right it is not just a sterile test. However it is yet a "testing ground" or "development ground". I am not exactly sure which term to use. Here we develop our Spirit under delusion, i.e. we were inserted into a Body and from there choose whether to develop that Spirit or stick to the primitive call and enjoy being the Beast with the consequence being an undeveloped Spirit. Being totally absorbed in this World is spiritually detrimental.
There could be a reason that one of the first "commandments" encourage contemplation frequently (Sabbath). Contemplating often helps one find a deeper meaning rather than just go head on in life.
There are many traps in this life; things which occupy our mind more than to actually do what is important with religion being one of them often with their many braindead rituals and rites which accomplishment in an exact manner may preoccupy the mind. Danger in religion is also all the deceptive material available and which causes inflexibility.
Be safe
Amenuel -
Mostly agree.. heaven and hell doesn't make sense..
Instead of seeing living on this earth as a "test" (where the test result are already known in the first place by the tester)
My view now is more towards living on this earth as a "journey" for the 'spirit' / 'consciousness'...Human made mistake.. and through mistake they learn..
That's also the basic fundamental of scientific method.. create hypothesis.. test it until it failed and the hypothesis proven to be incorrect. Learn from the failure and create new (and better) hypothesis.. and test it again.. it failed.. learn from it and create better hypothesis.. and so on..
A soul / spirit might experience multiple lives... and not necessarily following the linear path of time.. (From past to present) and / or not necessarily on this earth or on this universe. Through each live the soul shall learn from their mistake.
This universe / this reality is merely a 'virtual world' (which can be constructed and destroyed and modified and copied by it's creator with ease) as easy as you press Ctrl-C and Ctrl-V on the computer..
Agree
Hello Jafar,
I agree with your thinking and you are right it is not just a sterile test. However it is yet a "testing ground" or "development ground". I am not exactly sure which term to use. Here we develop our Spirit under delusion, i.e. we were inserted into a Body and from there choose whether to develop that Spirit or stick to the primitive call and enjoy being the Beast with the consequence being an undeveloped Spirit. Being totally absorbed in this World is spiritually detrimental.
There could be a reason that one of the first "commandments" encourage contemplation frequently (Sabbath). Contemplating often helps one find a deeper meaning rather than just go head on in life.
There are many traps in this life; things which occupy our mind more than to actually do what is important with religion being one of them often with their many braindead rituals and rites which accomplishment in an exact manner may preoccupy the mind. Danger in religion is also all the deceptive material available and which causes inflexibility.
Be safe
AmenuelAgree.
-
How does heaven and Hell not make sense?
For holding onto God during your trial and keeping and growing your souls through faith and fortitude in turmoil, Allah rewards you after this life by drawing you near to his presence and his care. This is Paradise. For acting treacherously, selflessly and like a cretin, turning your back on God and giving into your whims and desires as reactions to God's trials and during your turmoils God distances you from himself once and for all, which is Hell. Remember, God is the True and the True. How can you turn your back on the True and THE True one and be immune to the permanent consequences of this. This life of ours now is the testing ground and a time of redemption for our previous mistake. We are being tried by fire. We must remain steadfast and grow as Allah would have us grow.
This life provides us with miniscule examples of heaven and hell, perfection and imperfection as examples of what is to come. Traitors shall suffer the consequences of their treachery. God is the Truth and he is the True. The loyal shall revel in the blissful consequences of their loyalty. And what is the fact of it all? The Quran tells us that if the traitors (kuffar) were given a chance again they would fall back into the same treachery. So God will NOT punish anyone unless they themselves exhaust their capability for redemption and will not see the light no matter what is done for them. They are people who are past hope. Allah knows it and he will allow them to feel the true sting of the dark path that they willingly chose when they close the door on the light.
Salaam,
-
I meant to say "selfishly", "the Truth and the True" and 'closed the door.'