QIBLAH AND LEADING PRAYERS

Wakas

peace Anwar,

It would depend on how the classical arabic dictionaries defined the meanings or from their examples, e.g. if it mentioned Muslims use a certain direction in prayer, or this refers to the cuboid called Kaabah in Mecca etc then that suggests a post-Quran meaning.

I am interested in if they cite examples of usage pre-Quran (i.e. not involving Muslims) or in non-religious contexts. This will help in analysis. Are you aware of any?

HP_TECH

peace Anwar,

It would depend on how the classical arabic dictionaries defined the meanings or from their examples, e.g. if it mentioned Muslims use a certain direction in prayer, or this refers to the cuboid called Kaabah in Mecca etc then that suggests a post-Quran meaning.

I am interested in if they cite examples of usage pre-Quran (i.e. not involving Muslims) or in non-religious contexts. This will help in analysis. Are you aware of any?

Dude, I just posted 3 long pages from Lughat Al Quran showing you that confused
Did you miss it?

As-Salaatayn

Wakas,

Just Na7iyatus-salaah. That's it.

So what is your proof that it is a post-Quranic meaning?

Salaam

As-Salaatayn

Wakas,

Or at least some substantial evidence. I know proof is a strong word that sometimes people get carried away with. I am not here to be unreasonable or to take a stance that refuses any contrary evidence. If there were some hints of post-Quranic meanings I would have been the first to admit that. But 'religious' does not mean 'post-Quranic' because as we know there were many religious Arabs from pagan to Christian to Jewish. Hence, meanings that can apply to Pagan religion, Christians or Jews are NOT post Quranic. Obviously meanings that only apply to Muslims as we know them are post-Quranic.

Wakas

peace all,

HP,
Yeah I read your post. Whilst I think Lughat Al Quraan is worthy of reading, I'm not a big fan. It's good, but for me, the author mixes too much his view with what he has found in classical arabic sources. Sometimes its hard to tell which is which. Also my main interest is the specific form "qiblah".

Anwar,
So you are only aware of it meaning "Naa7iyahtus-salaati" (which you say can mean both a place of prayer or a direction of prayer).
I simply asked for examples involving non-Muslims. You alluded to there possibly being examples but you never confirmed.

What I'm enquiring about is real simple - if the classical Arabic dictionary source cites examples involving Muslims then to me this is post-Quran. I'm interested in other examples, especially non-religious if they exist.

In any case, here is some further info to add to the table

Here are the listed meanings of qiblah in Al-Munjid

a direction
the direction of the prays
anything that is opposite something
it is said "he has no qiblah and no dibrah in this affair", that is, "he does not know whence to approach it"
"make your homes a qiblah", , "...opposite "

Az-Zabeedi adds the following definitions in the Taaj

the Ka'bah
in the verse "make your homes a qiblah", it is meant "...masjids"

If you are implying "qiblah" only means "Naa7iyahtus-salaati", and alternatives such as the above do not exist in Classical Arabic dictionaries (CAD) just be clear and say so. My understanding is Al-Munjid is a modern dictionary, or at least is a mix of modern and classical Arabic, but I'd be surprised if you were to say such meanings cannot be found in CAD.

Please note, in case this is not obvious to readers, I haven't even begun to analyse the meanings Anwar is applying to Quran, to see if they fit. Here is an excellent place to start an analysis, even if you disagree with its conclusion etc, it still asks questions for us to ponder
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-masjid-al-haram-Quran.html

As-Salaatayn

Wakas, what is your conclusion?

You are right about Al-Munjid

Each definition is separate and should not condemn or vindicate another.

Al-Sihaahu Fil-Lughah

What one prays towards

.
.

Direction that something goes in or comes from.

Al-Qaamoosul-Muheet

.

Direction you go towards or face.

{ } .

Facing each other/going towards each other.

" . .

What you face or head towards/go to for prayer

Direction you face or head towards/go to

.

Direction you face or head towards/go to

Mu'jam Mufradaat al-faadh al-Quran

Place you face or head to/go for prayer

I think Naa7iyatus-salaat comes from Lisanul-Arab but I can't get the root to come up at www.baheth.info

HP_TECH

Wow I know who to bother for root analysis from Classical Arabic lexicons yay
Could you perhaps also check what Taj Al Roos has for qibla?

Thanks

Wakas

peace Anwar,
My conclusion is given in the article I linked to - have you read it?

Here is one excellent example of insight from the article

in 2148 the usage of "wherever" is the ONLY time it appears without a close link to "turn+wajh+AMAH" therefore likens "wijhatun (direction/course/goal/motive)" with "qiblah" and consequently likens AMAH to "race to the good" or at least we can say AMAH involves this. Furthermore, AQ implies each person may have their own "qiblah" in 2145 then later in 2148 says "for each is a wijhatun he turns towards it", strongly suggesting "qiblah" and "wijhatun" are being related as similar terms/concepts. Please re-read these verses as this is a key finding.

Thank you for sharing the examples from CAD, which shows it can mean other than "place of prayer" or "direction of prayer". That is what I was trying to find out.

Wakas

in 2148 says "for each is a wijhatun he turns towards it"

I forgot to say no-one takes the above as a physical directional request. Some might say the meaning of qiblah seems obvious in hindsight

As-Salaatayn

HP_TECH,

I just saw that. I'm sorry. I will try to check it out and post what it says as soon as I can.

Salaam