Call for Discussion: Users who promote their own religious beliefs.
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There are a number of users who see the forum as a platform for preaching their beliefs. Many of these beliefs oppose the most fundamental ideas in Islam. Many of those beliefs are offensive to Muslims.
For example, yesterday, a regular user described Quranists as being "deceived by a Pagan sect that hijacked Quran and derived a bogus interpretation from it". I had earlier pointed out that these kinds of statements are offensive to Muslims; the same user asked me "is it not better to be offended than utterly go blind to what you really are".
Anyone who spends time online knows that every discussion will inevitably get hijacked by someone who has original ideas that they want to promote. It is always the same basic issue Some random guy thinks he is enlightened, and that everyone else is blind to the truth, so he decides that he is doing the world a favour by promoting his own ideas, and then dismisses anyone who disagrees as 'brainwashed'.
We have effectively made that kind of behaviour the primary purpose of the site. It is not, in practice, a forum for discussing Islam based on the Quran alone. It is a free-for-all that allows people to openly attack Islam. People seem to think that a post is relevant because it mentions the Quran, but if it only mentions the Quran as evidence that Quranism is false then it is not relevant here.
Normally, the answer would be to start a private mailing list and kick out anyone who repeatedly ignores the scope of the discussion. Otherwise, there really is no scope, and the noise drowns out the signal for people wanting an advanced discussion, where certain facts are accepted by all parties from the start.
Personally, I have left the forum before because it was of little value to me. There were always good, intelligent points being made, and valuable insights being shared. On the other hand, there were always too many self-appointed gurus interjecting with original ideas that are irrelevant to any discussion that accepts the claims in the Quran as axiomatic.
It is not just a matter of filtering out the cruft. The volume of the interventions often derails the conversation, preventing advanced discussion altogether.
I am about to leave the forum again, but wanted to at least try and gather some community support for changing the situation instead.
Can we agree that this is not a forum that allows anything to be posted - it is not a platform for free-speech - and that it is a forum for advancing Islam - one where each contributor is expected to treat the Quran as the truth at all times?
The world needs a forum for discussion of Islam based on the Quran alone. I believe we should reform this forum to become one. It is really just a matter of enforcing the existing rules.
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Is it not good to receive interpretations from different interpreters and then choose what seems most rational?
I gave my input on Heaven, Hell and other usual doctrinal terms and you wish to censor that?
You mean people are not allowed to think?
I agree I wrote "deceived by a Pagan sect", but unfortunately that is true as I have found it. And you can probably agree that the same sect has given sectarian interpretations which validate wife beating and polygamy as well. It is just that the deception runs deeper than that. And you wish to silence that?
Despite what I say each person can keep their opinion and ignore the one they do not agree with. It is not hard. And you do not have to discuss with me either. There may actually be people who appreciate what I write and I know this too.
You may consider my teachings as blasphemous and inaccurate but for someone else they might seem like the ultimate truth. Do you wish this movement to turn into the typical Sunni or Shia which cannot even challenge anything of the doctrine?
I think one is buying their destiny for a cheap price if one is not investigating on a deeper level.
Be safe
Amenuel -
There are a number of users who see the forum as a platform for preaching their beliefs. Many of these beliefs oppose the most fundamental ideas in Islam. Many of those beliefs are offensive to Muslims.
A belief / opinion turned into a RELIGIOUS belief WHEN it's FORBIDDEN to be QUESTIONED or CHALLENGED.
"Offensive" is a subjective perception truly dependant on the perception of the beholder..
I don't find anyone who CHALLENGED or QUESTIONED my opinion / belief to be offensive..
But if YOU are.. I think the problem is in you and you're trying to promote your religious / not to be questioned or challenged belief..
And not on this forum.. -
I think that it is not honest for some people who come here and their aim when discussing the Qur'an seems to be to disqualify it as revelation and therefore qualify it as false. Most of the time rather out of place because they tend to tell us with straight words or implicitly that we are idiots and they are redeeming us of our idiocy. There may be some who are not offensive in that way and are respectful and in that case as far as I am concerned they are welcome.
That is one thing. But to understand the Qur'an in a particular way while considering it real revelation, even if some think that that way of understanding it is completely wrong, I do not think that is dishonest. We all do that, I think, and I also think that it is the only honest way to go about it. We cannot say we understand something in a certain way when we do not, or that we do not understand something in a way we do. It may be wrong, but it is the only way possible for us. That is the way we go about things in this world, the way we learn and evolve, and till God does not tell us directly what we did understand right and what did understand wrong, we cannot act as spokesmen or women of Him.
Salaam
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Man of Faith - You seem to think that the forum is for the open discussion of any belief. That makes sense. You wouldn't have a platform otherwise. I think this forum is for the discussion of Islam based on the Quran alone though.
You are trying to play victim, as though someone wants to censor you. You even asked if people are allowed to think. Stop being so absurdly melodramatic. You are not a victim. You are totally welcome to think, and even to promote your brand new religion, just not in a forum set up for Muslims to discuss their religion. That is rude and arrogant.
You defend calling Quranists "deceived by a Pagan sect" on the grounds that you have found it to be true. I do not wish to "silence that", but I do want you to stop promoting such offensive attacks on our religion in our own forum. No one cares what you find to be true. We are here to discuss Islam, not to act as sounding boards for your preaching.
Jafar - You have completely misrepresented what I wrote. It is blatantly offensive to say that our religion is "deceived by a Pagan sect". It is also off topic, and against the forum rules. I don't want to stop people in society saying those things, but this forum is for people who accept Islam as defined by the Quran alone to discuss their beliefs, without people with different religions attacking them constantly.
Huruf - Thank you. I agree. People will want to discuss their own thinking, even sometimes pushing views that are not accepted by Quranists, and this is fine. In fact, it is to be encouraged. However, people who have some other religion, who consider our religion to be fundamentally false, and who openly ridicule us for our beliefs, are not welcome here.
Bagyane - I am being patient. I am here, calmly trying to address the problem. Being patient does not mean allowing people to attack our religion in a forum specifically set up to discuss our religion.
Imagine some guys who believe that climate change is a serious issue set up a forum for discussing what to do about it. Imagine you don't believe in climate change, and have research to back up your opinion. It would be rude to constantly go into that forum, join conversations about how to address climate change, ridicule everyone there, and post your opinion on why it is not really a problem in the first place. If they asked you to stop, and to go and debate the issue in forums where that discussion is welcome, it would be idiotic to claim that you are being censored, or that people want to prevent thinking. You would be supremely arrogant if you claimed that your constant interjections are ok, on the basis that your opinions are the right ones.
Everyone - This forum has a great subject to discuss, and some great posts on the subject, but very low quality posts overall. This is because it does not enforce its own rules.
Advanced discussion involves everyone present agreeing on certain points before the discussion begins. Otherwise, you are forced to go over the basics repeatedly. If this is a forum where everyone is invited to come and attack Quranism if they want to, and where it is totally ok to promote your own religion at length, then it is not what it claims to be. In my opinion, a forum that discusses Islam based on the Quran alone is a fascinating and valuable place. A forum where people endlessly promote their religion to people that don't believe in it, calling every rejecter brainwashed, is utterly redundant. I could just read YouTube Comments if I wanted that quality of conversation.
I'm happy to leave, as I have in the past, and I'm sure many others have too. It really isn't a big deal to me personally. I just want to be sure that this forum is a waste of time first. It has so much potential that it seems worth trying to enforce the rules before giving up altogether.
Best,
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Csmith,
No offence but this place isn't Ummah forum or some other Islamic forum. Censorship will lead to the death of this forum. Falsehood cannot withstand questions. If you're belief system requires censorship, then you need to re-evaluate it.
We are here to exchange ideas. Take what you like and leave what you don't. If you're willing to make an input, then go ahead. Speak your mind but don't attempt to censor others for doing the same or else you'll be going down the same road religion did. We are humans. We are not drones but are uniquely created. We have our own minds and are responsible for it. We cannot guide each other, something religion fails to understand. And since we cannot guide each other, what is the point in pushing a specific belief system? How many people did Jesus or Moses guide? millions? Billions? Nope, just a handful. Not even Prophets can guide. Only the Source of Knowledge/Creator/Teacher guides.
Peace.
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Peace, I think all should have their say including kuffers. I don't read
their posts most of the time because it is the same regurgitated boring garbage
of their kufferism (is that a word even) and serves no positive purpose.
They are the unfortunates described in Quran kareem.33/48 And be not compliant to the unbelievers and the hypocrites, and leave
disregarded their annoying talk, and rely on Allah; and Allah is sufficient as a Protector.@csmith debating with nonbelievers is pointless, free-minds has an ignore feature
feel free to use it (even on me ) but stick around because I think your views are
interesting and positive.peace
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Csmith,
Play victim? I was asking for your thoughts and whether you would censor people based on their input. It suppose you tried to think instead of me now.
But you are defending a religion and your "territory" which is exactly an animalistic fallacy. Why do I have no right calling it Pagan? Do you know what the word Pagan means? It means hedonistic based on the Semitic word Jann but with foreign grammar prefix.
And my foundation of faith is based on Quran and that is the text I am primarily studying and promoting. It is not my fault that apparently I discovered a different book while at it.
My faith system is al-Islam, but I take it for the adjective it is rather than the noun it is not, i.e. my faith system is sound/logical.
When I "preach" as you call it I base what I write from Quran. The words I derive from are generally well researched when I make a comment about them in the forum, e.g. Jinn, Nafs, Nas, Naar etc.
Be safe
Amenuel -
You may be surprised at how rare it is for people to report posts and state the forum rule breach.
Maybe it is because members are trying to be open minded?
It is a free-for-all that allows people to openly attack Islam.
I do not count MOF as an attacker.He has different belief which we may not agree with.
For example, yesterday, a regular user described Quranists as being "deceived by a Pagan sect that hijacked Quran and derived a bogus interpretation from it".
If we know the truth why would we feel offended by this?
I have seen many attackers come and go here. I would not want them censored ever ;D Come on, that would just make us no different from sectarians.
I actually do think this forum should stay true to its name by supporting freedom of speech. Reporting should be done to posts that use obscene words/name calling against a member.
Most of the time rather out of place because they tend to tell us with straight words or implicitly that we are idiots and they are redeeming us of our idiocy.
That reminds me of rlz.
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Ok, it's a lost cause. Thank you everyone for taking the time to reply.
The community evidently want a forum where anything goes, where there is effectively no scope. That's fine, if that's what you guys want.
I would be happy to debate non-Muslims and to defend Quranism, don't get me wrong. I believe in free speech, but there also needs to be a place where Quranists can discuss our religion without constant interruptions from people trying to promote their religion and mock us.
It's a shame. I'm sure there are many other people who just don't bother with this forum because it has been taken over by people who are only interested in promoting themselves and their original theories, who derail any attempt to discuss the finer points of Quranism.
Salaam and farewell guys.
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Peace csmith.
It is not a case of what we want! It is a case of "Free-Minds" discussing with each other Qoran and other related topics.
Because Qoran asked for using our own intellect to find out what it says, we cannot impose our own rules on others.
If one believes he has the "truth" ,then what is the problem?
After all Qoran says the truth will always defeat falsehood.The rules are already set and those who moderate are trusted with the job
We on the other hand as members should stick to our job ( discussing/refuting/giving information/helping others/.) and let those who monitor the forum do theirs
Just like everyone is entitled to post here as a member,every member is also entitled to voice their concerns if they have any. That in itself should be enough and fair.
My opinion of course.
GOD bless you.
Peace -
That is the price, I think, for rejecting organized religion. There's always going to be crazy ideas. I embrace them, laugh at them, and move on.
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Maybe it is because members are trying to be open minded?
That is one possible reason.
@Wakas to satisfy both sides why not create an area for Quranist
to debate minus the noise of those who do not make salat, fast,
make hajj, etc.,.Please elaborate how that would work in practice.
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Ok, it's a lost cause. Thank you everyone for taking the time to reply.
The community evidently want a forum where anything goes, where there is effectively no scope. That's fine, if that's what you guys want.
No brother, it is not a lost cause. We have two options 1. What GL said (stick to the job) or 2. Stay away from such discussions. Both are approved by God.
Sanctions are upheld by those who can't defend their religions. Just think about sunniforum. It seems "reasonable" over there to ban the one who defeats their sectarian teachings.
I would be happy to debate non-Muslims and to defend Quranism, don't get me wrong. I believe in free speech, but there also needs to be a place where Quranists can discuss our religion without constant interruptions from people trying to promote their religion and mock us.
I suppose you are talking about sticking to the topic? In that case, I agree with you. But I also think one reason why people go out of track is because in Quranism, there hasn't been any establishment of a proper way to approach the book. The end results are everything is a metaphor, bizarre claims, confusion, and blind faith in the entire traditional interpretation of the book.
It's a shame. I'm sure there are many other people who just don't bother with this forum because it has been taken over by people who are only interested in promoting themselves and their original theories, who derail any attempt to discuss the finer points of Quranism.
I think most people left because we tend to discuss the same topics over and over again. It sometimes gets a little boring. About people promoting themselves and their original theories, you will find many new faces coming to do that. It never gets old. But at the end of the day, it is a forum.
Maybe a VIP section can solve a bit of the frustration. I know most forums make it available only for those who pay a fee. But I suppose it can also be made as invite only.
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I have a project on GitHub where people can discuss Islam based on the Quran alone. I've opened a thread for people to introduce themselves. If anyone here is interested in being a part of that group, please drop by and say hello.
Introduce yourself here https//github.com/carlsmith/quran/issues/1
I am not trying to move everyone over from this forum, but hope we can get enough interest to form a decent sized group there. People can come here for what this forum does well, and go there for friendly discussions where everyone at least agrees on the basics.
Open a new issue there if you have something you'd like to discuss. The actual project is focussed on developing a Quran translation based on the Free Minds version, but you can open an issue about anything relevant to Quranism.
Thanks.
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Peace!
Hello csmith,
It is unfortunate that you have chosen to leave, I find the contributions of members equally valuable, so it is always sad to see someone go.
You mentioned two important points in your first post of this thread the upholding of forum rules, and the discussion of unorthodox theological ideas.
I agree that forum breaches should not be tolerated, and that the offending member should be sanctioned according to the breach. Thing is, the admin of this forum are all volunteers with lives outside free-minds, so as you can imagine we don't spend all our time on this forum, as such, some (or probably most) of the breaches escape our notice. But you are more than welcome to report any breaches as Wakas has pointed out.
However, regarding the content of discussion, I strongly believe that no subject is off-limits (provided that the discussion is conducted respectfully). I agree that the quality of posts are extremely diverse, some members speak from well-founded knowledge and we can learn a great deal from them, whereas others speak from whim and they serve only to create chaos and confusion. Such is the paradox of a minimally-regulated open-source platform.
If you are seeking a more intimate environment, then I know of one other forum in which potential members must apply to register and are only accepted at the discretion of the administration. Said forum will probably have more of an intimate feel to it and will probably only allow orthodox ideas to be discussed. Although I can't be certain, as I haven't been granted access. You can try though http//www.quransmessage.com/forum/forum.htm
Finally, I would like to say that I reckon it is critical to subject one's ideas to people from different ideological positions in order that the truth may be subject to the harshest criticism, and if, after all that scrutiny, the truth still stands, then you can only be assured of the validity of your position. Whereas, if one only preaches to one's own crowd, then you only receive a chorus of consent.
My two cents.
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how do we post without promoting our beliefs... they seem deeply ingrained in or post?
become a muslim Abrahamic monotheism it's the best of religions hurry one hurry all hurry the prayer and hurry to prosperity hurry there's one god and praise worthy is his messenger.
like how does one answers a question or speak but from his own experience? most of the people on this site have be dedicated to their reliogns and gods for quite a few years other know nothing but faith.
as a muslim how can I not promote my beliefs, most religions propagate as a practice.
