Amputation: the Penalty for Theft?
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Most of the occurrences of the word hand or handsin the Qur'an are used overwhelmly in the figurative sense, meaning power or capacity. To conclude that in this aya, literal hands are meant, some reason should be given or then all accurrences in the Qur'an be interpreted likewise and not accept in any case the fiurative meaning, which would make a lot of nonsense, exactly as it happens in this aya. Goot that other arguments are given like by Iyyaka here, but really taking it as literal it reflects badly on the reasoning of the person that says so.
Salaam
Salam, (about what is above in bold)
I'm not sure that i understand what you understood from my over the last two interventions (sorry if it was not the case).
So, I prefer to summarize what I said to be clearerWakas summarized the 4 possibilities of understanding this verse (+ I added Mazhar's one - see his translation).
I quote him
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Thus, it is possible to understand the punishment for thieves in four alternative ways
(1) cutting off their hands
(2) cutting or marking their hands
(3) cutting their means/power to steal, e.g. detention/jail.
(4) cutting their sustenance, e.g. in order to compensate the value of the theft.
"My opinion bend to option 4 (I gave my arguments previously).
However, I do not rule out option 1 (and I have already given the arguments used to this effect in order that each one form his own opinion). This is why I remain cautious on this subject and I avoid, like expressing you used "it reflects badly on the reasoning of the person that says so". (i am cautious because it is very easy to project our opinions onto the text without listening to what the text says in context).NB
A literal approach in no way prevents figurative comprehension if the text allows or authorizes it. -
salam
i really do not understand why there is the need to interpret the verse
The God was clear ... punishment for stealing is cutting off of the hands unless the thief repents
if He wanted ro say sustenance or what else, im guessing He would have said cut their sustenance. but no, He said HANDS ... so why interpret )
also if we start interpreting verses then why dont we interpret verses about lashing etc or even about hell and say fire is just an allegory there is no fire
but no, The God is clear in His verses and His words are precise
hands to be amputated for the thief just as there is actual fire and boiling liquid in hell
peace
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salam
i really do not understand why there is the need to interpret the verse
but no, The God is clear in His verses and His words are precise
peaceSalam,
Please read more carefully my previous answer to you (Textually, it is not so clear as you declare, so figurative understanding is an option - moreover, "hands" as symbols of "power, possession" is also used elsewhere in the quran). -
i really do not understand why there is the need to interpret the verse
Why don't you try responding to the problematic issues then perhaps you'll understand why?
See what happened in the past when someone who thought it meant "cut-off" had to explain the issues
https//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9609391.msg403439#msg403439https//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9610091.msg414514#msg414514
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salam iyyaka
hope youre well
i did read but still i dont see why it is not clear and literal. The God said cut the hands, well so the hands are to be cut unless they repent. if they repent let them go.
does He use the word sustenance? non, He uses the word hands.
The God is very clear in the Quran and His words are specifically chosen
why chose to interpret this verse? are people going to interpret verses that they do not “like”?
also, let us look at it using the idea that hands means sustenance in the verse ... i understand a thief would usually steal if he has no money and mode of sustenance (unless perhaps the thief is rich and is a compulsive thief or gets kicks out of stealing) ... so if the punishement is to cut his or her sustenance... what are you going to cut?? he stole because he has no way of sustenance ... no work no nothing ... so cut what exactly? a nonexistant source of funds??
so given he has nothing, his mode of sustenance would then be ... his hands ! )salam wakkas
hope all is well too
i do not see the issue with this verse. justice is to The God. if He says something then that becomes justice. He is the Standard.
anyways my understanding is that the verse is literal as is the whole Quran unless The God says or makes it obvious He is giving an example (i think He usually tells us theoughout the Book when an example is an example)
peace
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Let's look at the magnitude of crime.. Is killing or prostitution or stealing worse?
For killing if the family agree for certain payment and deliver the killer then how cruel it is to sever physical hands for stealing regardless of what he or she stole....
Unless I am mistaken, Strangely God never said bring one or two or three or four witness before punish thief...
I researched how a thief was punished in ancient times in well known empires... So many ways they dealt and severing physical hands also was one of the options...
I feel this verse refers as discard them from society... I mean to say if one is considered as thief in society then people know how to treat them when they meet them... Society will do the rest... No one will give hand to them.. Society sever the hands with them, But if they reform, people will know they are not thieves anymore... So forgiveness is worthy.. If they remain thieves, then their destiny is at the hands of society...they won't have any respect in society but mean and lowly..
I extremely don't agree that it can be physical hands cutting.. .. By cutting a hand if you can stop a thief, that would be far from reality...
Common sense.. If one thief is caught, in most cases thief and what he thieved is also get caught... Unless he devour them all so quickly... So if what he stole is caught, then it is most appropriate to return to the owner what he lost... Even after that his hands severed.. What justice is that?
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Salam bro Tutti_frutti,
Yes i am well thanks by the grace of Allah. Hope for you too.
Let me answer to your two points
i did read but still i dont see why it is not clear and literal. The God said cut the hands, well so the hands are to be cut unless they repent. if they repent let them go.
=> Literally it is written word for word "cut off the hands/aydiy of each of them/humâ "
So, it means cut 3 or more hands for each thief - Does it possible ? NO. I hope it is more clearer now.
But i also said that it may be a use of the Arabic language (i gave arguments from exegetes). And it is your opinion too and it is respectable.
also, let us look at it using the idea that hands means sustenance in the verse ... i understand a thief would usually steal if he has no money and mode of sustenance (unless perhaps the thief is rich and is a compulsive thief or gets kicks out of stealing) ... so if the punishement is to cut his or her sustenance... what are you going to cut?? he stole because he has no way of sustenance ... no work no nothing ... so cut what exactly? a nonexistant source of funds??
so given he has nothing, his mode of sustenance would then be ... his hands !Good remark and i belived to have answered it but i was not enough clear in my response.
So 3 options in the order of things
- cut the equivalent subsistance
- and if it is not possible (partially or totally), so the thief's hands become the hands serving the person you stole (as with the story of the brothers of yusuf and the king's cup)
- always possibility to reduce the sentence or forgive it's an opportunity to do the best deed.
Conclusion at this moment from my side (reconciliation of the two approaches)
1/- Physically cut off the thief's hand can be made, but you have of taking into account the context of the revelation of the verse (Tribal society made up of small groups with strong solidarity among members and mutual assistance) and taking into account the state of the society and the individual situation (cf. Muhammad ASAD's commentary).
2/- as it is so complicated to have the context of an already-existing, fully functioning social security scheme in society we can apply the figurative approach (i gave my choice on how to apply it by the quran and the torah - The textual context of verse 538 and around it is about jews) .
NB the view of Jkhan is wise too in this case - i quote him "I feel this verse refers as discard them from society... I mean to say if one is considered as thief in society then people know how to treat them when they meet them... Society will do the rest...,"
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Look at this Issue in a practical point of view..
At least when the rule was in the hands of believers while the verse is revealed...
Suppose if one was caught as thief, he may beg I won't steal again like a repentance.. He repent of not God only knows..
... Plain instruction is Cut their hands... Which hand.. Right or left or both and when to cut.. I mean before repent or after repent.. ... Or not to cut if they repent.. Has Quran clearly instructed not to cut hands if they repented... How they will implement? Only option is cut hands of all those who are thief.. They repent or not repent is not relevant to executors. Everyone would say they repent... So no thief will be there to cut hands... Okay may be considered repetition of theft.. But where is instructions from Quran..In the following verse539 God says whoever repents God forgives (God forgives not Ruler or people)... So anyone can repent when they get caught... So.. Nice way to escape ..
Verse 538 is clear with instruction.. No conditions... So as a ruler of even people they should first cut thief hands... Probably both.. Coz it doesn't say one hand.. It seems more than two..
So once thief's hands are cut, he is in a situation to repent himself (not to rulers) for what he did according to 539 if he feels he is wrong.. It won't make any thief to reform rather than revenge.. Not only repent but reform as well.. Simply not steal again.. There comes the biggest scenario.. Now he has no more hands. .the punishment for thief is cutting hands. .so when he is caught stealing then he needs to be punished as per Quran. But only punishment God proclaimed is cutting hands and no alternative... What would ruler of society do.. Let him free go steal again.. Coz thief knows very well now, he has no hands and punishment proclaimed is cutting hands and proclaiming / implementing anything other than God ordered is violation... So it gives thieves more chance... Do you expect that is exemplary gor thieves..?Thieves are thieves.. You can't stop them by severing a body part... What exemplary punishment is that from God.. Such punishments were already in such societies even well Before these Quranic verses... It doesn't need to come as exemplary from God..
But if God told the rulers and the society to disconnect their hands then the thieves are given a very mean status in society.. So.. They will suffer mentally in their entire life.. Unless they reform... If they leave theft and get back to good path then society knows that.. Coz they live together... Then God forgives not rulers or people...
If his hands are cut instead, even he reforms it will be a black mark.. And everyone knows he was a thief once and he will remain in the minds of people he is thief whenever they see a person without hands.
God has not even clarified the magnitude of theft... Stealing a penny is also a theft..
So as per Quran.. If anyone happened to steal anything of theirs, they inform everyone of his theft so that people would disconnect his hands from all dealings... That's possible in a well structured local community like the one probably prophet lived...
So he becomes helpless rather than choosing the right path at least to survive if not for guidance.. So ethic prevails ..
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peace tf,
i do not see the issue with this verse. justice is to The God. if He says something then that becomes justice. He is the Standard.
Did you actually read the links I provided? Yes/No.
I hope you are not being lazy but I will post them here for all to see
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The Arabic word translated as "cut" in 538 is "iqtaa" and occurs 14 other times in the same 1st verb form (QaTaA) in The Quran, please tell us how many out of the 14 occurrences it means a clear physical cutting off?
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The derivatives that are read in the 2nd verb form (QaTTaA) occur 17 times in The Quran. The 2nd verb form expresses intensity/frequency of the action. Please tell us how many out of the 17 occurrences it means a clear physical cutting off?
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The more intense 2nd verb form is used alongside hands only twice in Quran - please tell us does it mean cutting off hands in these verses? Yes/No.
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Please explain the plural use of "aydi" (hands) in 538. Note that the Arabic plural means 3 or more hands, thus iqtaa should be done to 3 or more hands.
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When lashes are given as punishment for proven adultery, The Quran states not to let pity/compassion prevent you from carrying out such a punishment , but it says no such thing for the alleged hand cutting-off verse, when many (all?) consider this punishment to be far worse. Please explain why this is.
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The recurring theme of justice in The Quran is equivalence or less, i.e. one cannot go overboard in punishment with respect to the crime. Please explain what happens if someone steals a slice of bread according to Quran.
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Are there any other corroborating verses in Quran which support hand-cutting-off for theft? Yes/No. If yes, cite them.
8 ) the only working example of theft in Quran is in the story of Joseph , please tell us what the punishment for theft is in this story?
Like others who hold the view "cut off" you will be forced to admit the word doesn't usually mean cut-off, when the more appropriate intense 2nd form is used with hands it doesn't mean cut-off and you would cut off the hands for stealing a slice of bread etc etc. Is that "God is the standard" in your eyes?
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It seems many want to interpret Qoran and implement their interpretation on others.
ISIS think they are implementing Qoran.
Saudi Arabia think they are implementing Qoran.
Hundreds of sects are following their interpretation and implementing it accordingly.Should Qoran not be studied and implemented on oneself first and foremost? Are we not supposed to cleanse our minds and better ourselves with it ?
GOD tells them clearly"do not force deen" on others",but claim Qoran gives the "freedom of choice" when it suits them.
They cut the heads, fingers and hands and justify it with Qoran.
They horde wealth and monopolise it for the leaders and powerful"men" and justify it with Qoran.
They oppress women, children and the weak in society and justify it with Qoran
They tell lies about GOD , create a religion and rules galore.enforce it on others and justify it with Qoran.
...and so on.Why are not those who implement "cutting hands" not applying it to themselves when some of them steal people s wealth,property and freedom?
In honesty , if "cutting hands" is applied for theft, there will be
1- Injustice - Many are stealing little things for necessity-Others are stealing very big-
2-Most people of the world Having one hand -The majority of humans take what is not theirs- little things- either deliberately or by mistake-
3- Most leaders will have one hand..
GOD might as well create humans with one hand to start with!! Perhaps on second though it is a good thing GOD created us with two hands. Otherwise some will still interpret "cut hands" and there will be some folks walking about with no hand at all.Anyway each to their interpretations.
GOD bless you all.
Peace -
Peace..
That's why it is pathetic to hear when conventional Muslims say that it is the order of God in Quran and Hadith.. Heartless people to be honest..Does anyone notice the strange part in those couple of verses 538-39..
God didn't say to forgive them when they thieve.. I would forgive if I found someone steal anything of mine which the thief need more than me... of course if I realize that.. For example if I found someone is desperate to and found nothing other than stealing.. In case I don't mind losing it.. But God didn't instruct us in Quran to forgive them but can be forgiven when they themselves repent plus reform coz God forgives so better we do as well.. I or you may be emotional looking at the thief's desperate situation but giving a helping hand for theft and encouraging is not recommended by God correctly... But if we found someone stealing in hunger, we may approach him casually and extend a helping hand and advise not to steal... But God directly warns us theft is illegal even how much desperate the situation is... Big level thieves are real thieves and their only intention is living a life based on theft...But people who practice theft on desperate situation are not real thieves.. But definitely not encouraged by God.. If they are in a destitute situation, they can / should always find someone who they feel who can help them... Doing something is always within the possibility, if he is capable enough to steal someone else's property ... Isn't it? Believers should always look for help from God if they find they are desperate but not choose theft...
But what about disbliever (poor) who is on desperate situation? He doesn't mind ethics.. Our emotion towards him won't work.. It will only boost his hunt to theft making us fool...So.. I highly accept what God's decision to disconnect the hands of thieves from society... Who knows better than God... Our emotions and dislike is not relevant over the decision of God...
If anyone has researched, " why one becomes a theif" pls share... I feel it is one's own fault in managing his resources before zero level strikes.. But if unfortunate people like (blind, orphan etc etc) happened to steal then it is the fault of society ... God encourages charity at very high level... But if one tries to live on charity forever and when helpless trying to steal then he is responsible for his situation... Everyone works hard to earn... Not to make the beggers and thief enrich by doing nothing..
Those who blindly say that God's verses are clear and it has been commanded to cut the physical hands, should seriously question their reasoning on why God didn't set any conditions like to other major crimes.. Such as bring evidences, witnesses, blood money etc... It is not simple thing Losing both hands.. So need concrete witnesses.. But God is silent on that.. But to disconnect from society just catching the thief on the spot is enough..
What is a thief?
If someone when caught stealing others property and then by returning what he stole will not make him as No thief.. Either he returns or devour he is thief.. Isnt it? ..by returning what he stole when he was caught on the spot won't make him by any means REPENTED or REFORMED..
So.. Do you still want to cut his hands coz he is literally a thief? No one lost anything... But one loses both hands for nothing.. What a shameful act that is..Or else vice versa. Stole 500$ and unable to return.. So one lost 500$ .. So cut hands.. Would anyone of you wish if you are a believer to cut a thief's both hands coz you lost 500$? But you won't mind if a murderer was hanged? That's so natural...
Will you ever be peaceful whenever you see that thief without hands begging on the streets just coz of your dollars? It will only be a burden to society by that punishment... Is that exemplary from God? No way..
That's cruel heart of evil men invented by hiding the real meaning of real message of God...
Curse upon curse on those nations who execute such practices..Finally theft is always wrong coz it is against the ethics of a peaceful society... But cutting hands is worse and unethical...
They forgot the basic who implement such unethical barbaric laws..
Simply start from a family.. What would a father do if his son stole something from his locker.. Cut hands or disconnect his hands from family until he repent and reform? If he reforms accept him... But what happens if father just forgive him and neglect even after he found his son stole... Father is cultivating his son to society to become a thief.. -
Salam all!
The answer is in the next ayah, that is 540
Do you not know that to Allah belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth? He punishes whom He wills and forgives whom He wills, and Allah is over all things competent.
Peace!
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Salam all!
The answer is in the next ayah, that is 540
Do you not know that to Allah belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth? He punishes whom He wills and forgives whom He wills, and Allah is over all things competent.
Peace!
peace, punishment in 540 is same as in 537, 541
56 وايديكم and hands yours الي to المرافق the elbow
538 ايديهما aydiyahuma/hands theirs dual
e.g. two people need to sever 4 hands, forearms, etc.
you suggesting severing both their hands make them as armless mannequins?
https//i.postimg.cc/DZd9dwhw/mannequin.jpg
https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/5/vers/38/handschrift/15
https//i.postimg.cc/bwj7Znk2/ch5v37-44.jpg
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Salam brother Noon!
I am not suggesting any punishment. I know that it is only Allah who has all the right to punish ir forgive. Are you not an Allah only believer? Or the translation of 540 is wrong?
Peace!
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Or the translation of 540 is wrong?
peace tmtt, what has to do with 538-39 topic?
518 … يغفر forgived لمن to whom يشا willed ويعذب and punished من whom يشا willed ولله and to god ملك sovereignty السموت the skies والارض and the land وما and what بينهما between them dual واليه and towards him المصير the destiny
537 … ولهم and for them عذب punishment مقيم established (end verse/topic)
538-39 والسارق and the thief (male) والسارقه and the thief (female) …
… ان indeed الله the god غفور forgiver رحيم merciful (end verse/topic)540 الم did not تعلم thou know ان that الله the god له to him ملك sovereignty السموت the skies والارض and the land يعذب punished من whom يشا willed ويغفر and forgived لمن to whom يشا willed والله and the god علي on كل every شي thing قدير supreme
4814 ولله and to god ملك sovereignty السموت the skies والارض and the land يغفر forgived لمن to whom يشا willed ويعذب and punished من whom يشا willed وكان and be/is الله the god غفورا forgiver of رحيما merciful of
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Salam brother noon!
OK. Message of 540 is clear and repeated variously in AQ. Now in Dhul-qarnain case, he was allowed to give the punishment to a nation but he avoided. So Allah can give authority to some of his chosen entities. In Musa's killing case, Allah did not punished him. Instead he was forgiven and appointed as a Rasool. Big QuestionMark?
Let's see 538-39 case. فاقطعوا is a commabd given to 3 or more people and ایدی is plural for 3 or more hands. I think it is saying to people to restrain THEIR hands from both of them and IF any one of the people forgets this command and harms the السارق or السارقۃ by chance then he/she can تاب and Allah would forgive him/her. Because people are not given the authority to punish anyone. What will you say if people kill a murderer without any trial in court? Need to look at exact meaning of قطع.
540 is end of this topic as 541 is beginning of a new topic.Peace!
Peace! -
peace tf,
Did you actually read the links I provided? Yes/No.
I hope you are not being lazy but I will post them here for all to see
Like others who hold the view "cut off" you will be forced to admit the word doesn't usually mean cut-off, when the more appropriate intense 2nd form is used with hands it doesn't mean cut-off and you would cut off the hands for stealing a slice of bread etc etc. Is that "God is the standard" in your eyes?
As is often the case when confronted with the evidence their only response is silence.
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salam
i really do not understand why there is the need to interpret the verse
The God was clear ... punishment for stealing is cutting off of the hands unless the thief repents
if He wanted ro say sustenance or what else, im guessing He would have said cut their sustenance. but no, He said HANDS ... so why interpret )
also if we start interpreting verses then why dont we interpret verses about lashing etc or even about hell and say fire is just an allegory there is no fire
but no, The God is clear in His verses and His words are precise
hands to be amputated for the thief just as there is actual fire and boiling liquid in hell
peace
Salam Brother tutti_frutti,
Yes you're right and i was wrong.
Probably the classic mistake of mixing and projecting one's personal feelings/opinions onto a text.A few additional remarks about your last comment
(1) Structure of the text (according to the principles of Semitic rhetoric - cf. note 1)
While the subpart of Sura 5 (verses 1-26) ended with a highly symbolic biblical narrative, the second subpart (verses 27-50) also begins with a parable narrative from the biblical tradition the murder of Cain. The story of this crime is like a pediment inaugurating a textual subsection devoted to questions concerning the exercise of justice in the new community founded by Muhammad. It has two textual sequences 27-40 and 41-50. The first one prescribe corporal punishment for certain crimes, beyond which lies the struggle of some rebellious Jews against the prophet. The second inaugurate Muhammad as an arbiter in the internal affairs of Jews and Christians.
The textual sequence from verses 27 to 40 comprises three passages arranged in "concentrism" (e.g.a sequence with a center, symbolized by the letter X as below)
(A) 27-31
(X) 32-a-f
(A' 32g-40.The first passage is dedicated to the account of fratricide ; the second repeats a sentence of wisdom from Jewish tradition forbidding all murder, except for the execution of the murderer or the one who contributes at "a disorder/chaos in the land" ; the third passage applies this exception to "those who fight against God and his messenger and contribute at a disorder/chaos in the land", while extending the consideration to other crimes and punishments, such as theft (verse 53.
Below is a schematic representation of the structure of verses 27 to 40
(A) The murder of Cain (verses 27-31)
(X) The prohibition of murder and "disorder" on earth (verses 32a-f)
(A) Crimes and punishments for "disorder" external to the community (war) and internal to the community (theft) (verses 32g-40)=> This whole passage is about corporal/physical punishment.
(2) Arabic principle the plural "aydiyahumā" (their hands)
Normally, the plural form in Arabic indicates a minimum of 3 units.
However, it exists the Arabic principle that ‘when annex (aḍāfat) a single body part to each of a pair of individuals, they use the plural form’, quoting Q. 664, If you both repent to God, for indeed your hearts have deviated (in tatūbā ilā’llāhi fa-qad ṣaghat qulūbukumā).
(3) Vocabulary the word "nakālan" (53 = "(as) an exemplary (punishment)"
- Dictionary Arabic-English Lexicon by Edward William Lane
Any punishment serving to give warning to others than the sufferer (M, K, TA) or that restrains the offender from repeating the offence
** Dictionary Arabic-French Lexicon by Kazimirski
Some uses of the root نكل (nun-kaf-lam)- To recoil, to move away 2. to refrain from something, or to recoil from someone or something out of fear
- To be instructed, warned, intimidated by examples one has had before one's eyes, or to make an example of someone, e.g. by inflicting exemplary punishment.
- Terrible and exemplary punishment
=> This visual and collective exemplarity act corresponds to the fact of cutting the hand, and instilling the fear of robbing in the hearts of Men.
(4) The historical context of the revelation of Sura 5, and verse 38.
Sura 5 is the last to appear in the chronological order of the Koranic revelation. Muhammad became the undisputed ruler of the community he governed. The Qur'anic principles of solidarity with the weakest are fully realized. No one has a "serious" reason to steal because he is hungry. Thus in this context the motive to steal has no justification and can only cause disorder/chaos in the tight-knit community of believers.
Furthermore, the traditional scholars have set conditions for the application of this measure
- This does not apply to stealing food (especially if one steals out of hunger)
- A minimum amount of value must be stolen to be applied
etc..
(5) Variant of recitation/qirâ'a the variant of Ibn Masʿūd
In Q. 538, the verse setting out the punishment for thievery, the canonical reading is cut off the hands of both the male and female thief (wa’l-sāriqu wa’l-sāriqatu fa’qṭaʿū aydiyahumā). Al-Farrāʾ records from Ibn Masʿūd, cut off the right hands of both male and female thieves (wa’l-sāriqūn wa’l-sāriqāt fa’qṭaʿū aymānahumā).Al-Ṭabarī records one isnād indicating doubt about whether Ibrāhīm al-Nakhaʿī quoted Ibn Masʿūd or claimed this recitation for himself, and another referring to al-Nakhaʿī alone. He also narrates from Ibn Masʿūd without al-Nakhaʿī, cut off the right hands of both the male and female thief (wa’l-sāriqu wa’l-sāriqatu fa’qṭaʿū aymānahumā). By using the singular form of sāriq and sāriqa, this second reading only diverges from the canonical Qur’anic text by a single word.This is the version that al-Jaṣṣāṣ records as the recitation of al-Nakhaʿī.
=> We have here the testimony that Ibn Mas'ûd recited this verse using the plural "The thieves/as-sâriqûn and the thieves/as-sâriqât, cut off their hands...", which would indeed explain the presence of the plural aydiy/hands.
Note 1
- https//reveniraucoran.fr/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/Levels-and-figures-of-rhetorical-composition_v1-English.pdf
- https//reveniraucoran.fr/rhetorique-semitique/ (English translation is possible with the orange button in the upper right corner of the screen)
God bless you.
- Dictionary Arabic-English Lexicon by Edward William Lane