Can a women lead a congregational prayer with men and women mixed behind her?

Zulf

you're arguing with your self,

Yes apparently I am. I need to stop.

i'm not saying this is what will happen, but everytime this kind of subject comes up, there's always this idea that it ought to be possible and that there can't be anyone to offer criticism based on very empirical observation of the world around us

Great, then it is safe to have women lead prayer, suitably dressed of course.

Study

How come we pray in groups/masses in the first place?
Not that I've got anything against praying in a group. This is an honest question. Is praying alone in any way disadvantageous?
I can't think of a single mosque where I could pray the way I want to. I'd simply be regarded a kufr.

And I personally wouldn't like for women to pray infront of me, especially not if they are good looking women with an hourglass figure.
I wouldn't want to think about "reproduction" while praying. And in case anyone should be insulted that I/all men think such a thing, please don't be insulted. We are sexually narrow-minded.

good_logic

Peace Zulf.

I was having a laugh with you brother, in my earlier post, and someone took me seriously!

Not that some Muslims do not pray in the beach

https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=2P6Dj4sF9Vs

Where is the sense of humour gone?

Zulf, Yosemite, Study,Hawk,Huruf, MOF, Jafar, brothers and sisters, if you find someone or two orthree or... praying in the nude in a beach,, do not assume it is good logic and his mixed gender friends led by an "Imam lady" !!!

GOD bless you.
Peace

Bender

you're playing the moral relativist card, it's as if you're implying you can turn the verse that says murdering people is forbidden into something different

Hi,

You forgot raping, torturing, oppressing, etc

when the quran says it is better to dress modestly, it says it is better to dress modestly

yes agreed, but what does dress modestly mean?
Not everyone has the same definition for dressing modest.
Here in The Netherlands they have other definition then in Saudi Arabia.

i never talked about sins, sins is a very abstract concept hard to gauge in the real world, because it is associated with some kind of mythical god that punishes you on earth if you commit this or that action that is considered a sin

Ok thank you. For me sinning means doing something bad/evil.
If you do not consider it a sin, then what is your problem with it?

when i read the quran, what i read is your actions bring forth consequences, and the consequences can range from being positive for you to negative for you

yes agreed, but we are not talking about ourselves because we wear modest clothes (whatever that may mean to us), we are talking about others. If someone dresses him/herself in a negative way what has that to do with your actions, if it really bad how they dress then it's like I said their problem not yours or mine.

what you're saying is to let uneducated people have influence over others

I have no idea what you mean with uneducated people, but how can they influence you if you are an educated one? You should be smart enough not to let them influence you.

i find it interesting that you have this kind of mentality, it very much looks like you only believe in a one way street freedom system, where people can actually BEHAVE however they like to, but i somehow CAN NOT offer a critic of that behaviour

If I believe in a freedom system, then I must also believe in freedom of speech, thus that YOU CAN offer critic on whoever or whatever you like.

should i remain silent when stuff like folsom street fair happens? doesn't the quran say something about people who remain inactive, or conceal the truth?

RED Sorry I do not know what this folsom street fair is.
GREEN I guess so.

what call the law? the arab elite have tried to impose their laws on the arab people, the arab world ends up getting destroyed in mere months by americans

not sure what your point is.

the quran isn't a book only for individuals, it's for the group as well as for the individual

not every one believes in the quran.

in the USA for example, and the western world, freedom has slowly turned into irresponsible freedom, where people reject their own personal responsibilities for their actions

it's like you believe in this type of freedom

I believe in freedom as long as this freedom does not hurt fellow humans or animals or nature in general.
I do not like, piercing, tattoos, nudity,etc , but I have absolutely no problem with people who have piercings, tattoos or go to nude beaches as long as they do not harm others or nature in general.
Those who pierce their body, it's their body who gets holes not mine. Those who do tattoos are painting their bodies not mine. Those who go naked, are the ones who are naked not me.
And if they like it, then who am I to judge them?

But what is modest dressing according to you, can you show me a picture of what you think is the minimal. And what should we do to people who go beyond this minimum.

savage_carrot

Zulf, Yosemite, Study,Hawk,Huruf, MOF, Jafar, brothers and sisters, if you find someone or two orthree or... praying in the nude in a beach,, do not assume it is good logic and his mixed gender friends led by an "Imam lady" !!!
And this is how one goes from suitably dressed to bikinis and then...nude. I for one won't assume and just take it for a fact

huruf

If one is praying with other people one will always have to pray in any possible way for all to have their comfort. You like, he likes, she likes they like, we like, I like, the other likes... We all like things, and we have to arrange things so that nobody is slighted. If one cannot do that, then by all means, pray on your own or only with people you know they are going to adapt to your likes or who do not have a particular like that clashes with your likes.

When I was little in the church in my village, there used to be foremost the children, then the younger women, then the older women,then there was the door of the church, then, all back, older men, and on the choire upstairs younger men. As it was it was older people who were closest to the door of the church. These were peasants, unsophisticated people, basic school only, but at least they had unsophisticated but respectful manners and the arragement was so that the acknowledged courtesy of ladies first was honoured and the older people was closest to the door, so they could get out first and not walk much, and the foremost places were not for the strongest and powerful but for the least so.

I wonder many, many times, why so many self called muslims show themselves so little manly and sort of proud of not being so.

Why is it so simple for people who are not very cultured or sophisticated to be plain courteos and respectful of women, children and older people and why for others who seem to swim in worldly knowledge to be just simply manly turns out to be such a tough job as if someone were wringing their arms from their body?

Why is it so painful for some people to allow others the same room they allow for themselves if they only see the possibility of getting away with not doing it? Is that cogent with the feeling that if we are not great in our everyday life at least in the mosques we should show our best behaviour? Looks as if the aim was exactly the opposite. In daily life you watch yourself, but when you go to the mosque there you are the king and women should know their place.

Salaam

huruf

link=topic=9608172.msg382752#msg382752 date=1454873453]
Peace Zulf.

I was having a laugh with you brother, in my earlier post, and someone took me seriously!

Not that some Muslims do not pray in the beach

https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=2P6Dj4sF9Vs

Where is the sense of humour gone?

Zulf, Yosemite, Study,Hawk,Huruf, MOF, Jafar, brothers and sisters, if you find someone or two orthree or... praying in the nude in a beach,, do not assume it is good logic and his mixed gender friends led by an "Imam lady" !!!

GOD bless you.
Peace

O0 O0 >D >D >D >D[quote author=good logic

Zulf

And I personally wouldn't like for women to pray infront of me, especially not if they are good looking women with an hourglass figure.
I wouldn't want to think about "reproduction" while praying. And in case anyone should be insulted that I/all men think such a thing, please don't be insulted. We are sexually narrow-minded.

You mentioned not wanting women praying in front of you. Well, I can understand that in context of the sunni/shia/.. traditional yoga like salutations. I guess the so called Islamic style prayer where you expose your bottom towards those behind you simply doesn't allow for women and men mixed without putting to much pressure on men that are mentally defenceless against their hormones.

So I'm changing my mind. I was foolish enough to think in terms of purpose of prayer. I totally forgot that what people are engaged in during the salat/namaz (or whatever you call it that happens in masjids) is basically something physical and material, and has virtually nothing to do with connection to your Rabb (prayer). Islam apparently has a built-in design in the practises that make mixing problematic.

So now my statement is amended like this

Women can definately lead people in prayer, but perhaps they should not bend down and exposing their "hour glass figure" in front of people when leading the Islamic bowing and bending ritual. Obviously, these are different things.... prayer vs bending. When I say prayer, I mean the group activity of deliberate attention through guided focus pertaining to expressing gratitude and wishes etc in relation to the Rabb. Therefor prayer is different from Islamic Bending. Women may lead prayer, but perhaps not Islamic Bending. Men just won't be able to handle it.

I was wrong. No women for leading namaz (unless it is an all women gathering).
But then again, what's the point in doing the namaz? Better to do something spiritually useful. Let men run to the mosques to show off their piety. Less social pressure for women.

-X

Bender

You mentioned not wanting women praying in front of you. Well, I can understand that in context of the sunni/shia/.. traditional yoga like salutations. I guess the so called Islamic style prayer where you expose your bottom towards those behind you simply doesn't allow for women and men mixed without putting to much pressure on men that are mentally defenceless against their hormones.

So I'm changing my mind. I was foolish enough to think in terms of purpose of prayer. I totally forgot that what people are engaged in during the salat/namaz (or whatever you call it that happens in masjids) is basically something physical and material, and has virtually nothing to do with connection to your Rabb (prayer). Islam apparently has a built-in design in the practises that make mixing problematic.

So now my statement is amended like this

Women can definately lead people in prayer, but perhaps they should not bend down and exposing their "hour glass figure" in front of people when leading the Islamic bowing and bending ritual. Obviously, these are different things.... prayer vs bending. When I say prayer, I mean the group activity of deliberate attention through guided focus pertaining to expressing gratitude and wishes etc in relation to the Rabb. Therefor prayer is different from Islamic Bending. Women may lead prayer, but perhaps not Islamic Bending. Men just won't be able to handle it.

I was wrong. No women for leading namaz (unless it is an all women gathering).
But then again, what's the point in doing the namaz? Better to do something spiritually useful. Let men run to the mosques to show off their piety. Less social pressure for women.

-X

the -X will not save you rotfl

Bender

Hi,

The topic title is Can a women lead a congregational prayer with men and women mixed behind her?
What happened that we are discussing now dress codes in prayers and dress codes in general?

I have a question for those who think that it's not allowed for a woman to lead a congregational prayer with men and women mixed behind her.
In this case I am talking about the traditional prayers done in mosques.
Suppose all the women there are wearing very wide burqas, you can not see their curves (whatever they call it in English).
Do you think it's allowed or still not allowed for a woman (in burqa) to lead a congregational prayer with men and women (all in burqas) mixed behind her?

hawk99

Peace Study, so we go from women to unattractive women eligible to lead
prayer nope why are you looking at someone's backside during prayer
in the first place? What ever happened to lower your gaze? The answer to
this subject goes back to obeying Allah.

peace

Zulf

Hi,

The topic title is Can a women lead a congregational prayer with men and women mixed behind her?
What happened that we are discussing now dress codes in prayers and dress codes in general?

I have a question for those who think that it's not allowed for a woman to lead a congregational prayer with men and women mixed behind her.
In this case I am talking about the traditional prayers done in mosques.
Suppose all the women there are wearing very wide burqas, you can not see their curves (whatever they call it in English).
Do you think it's allowed or still not allowed for a woman (in burqa) to lead a congregational prayer with men and women (all in burqas) mixed behind her?

A rebellious mind can go anywhere. If the pious male congregational prayer attendant know that it is a women who is in front of him, his mind will penetrate any kind of dress, no matter how covering it may be. To an unchecked mind, even the rear of a burqa is like a steaming hot nude bottom. Just ask all those pious folks with beards and uniform who cannot focus on the sermon when there are women nearby. Notice, they cannot even focus on the sermon, during which there is no bending occuring. o

-X

peace bro

Man_of_Faith

Such instinctive beasts... the Satan must be very active.

es

Salaam,

Hi,

The topic title is Can a women lead a congregational prayer with men and women mixed behind her?
What happened that we are discussing now dress codes in prayers and dress codes in general?

I have a question for those who think that it's not allowed for a woman to lead a congregational prayer with men and women mixed behind her.
In this case I am talking about the traditional prayers done in mosques.
Suppose all the women there are wearing very wide burqas, you can not see their curves (whatever they call it in English).
Do you think it's allowed or still not allowed for a woman (in burqa) to lead a congregational prayer with men and women (all in burqas) mixed behind her?

I am glad you brought this up because I was wondering the same.

Such instinctive beasts... the Satan must be very active.

Peace MoF,

I was thinking the same!

Peace Study, so we go from women to unattractive women eligible to lead
prayer nope why are you looking at someone's backside during prayer
in the first place? What ever happened to lower your gaze? The answer to
this subject goes back to obeying Allah.

peace

Peace, Hawk, Zulf,

nope I despair! Truly! &

huruf

There is something very wrong with all this.

If men cannot pray and want women far from them because they cannot concentrate ?why on earth do they drive buses, why on earth do they sell things, why on earth do they work in offices, why on earth are they even out in the streets? It is dangerous, they are full of cars. If they cannot concentrate on what they are doing, being anywhere at all where there may be women in front of their eyes, specially driving is a real danger.

Only women should drive by those standards and only women should do a lot of things.

I do not believe for one second that there are any men that, if they do not want to be distracted, can be distracted from prayers by a woman more than by any other thing. But by saying so, they gurantee their right to their commfortable statu quo where their ego is pampered an taken as the measure for everything.

Everybody has to fight distraction while praying or while doing annything else, and the most distracting thing is oneself. Why should their distractableness be visited on somebody else.

This distraction nonsense, in which I do not believe for a second, is themost ridiculous excuse for trampling on the dignity of other people. Too bad women were stupid and did not think of saying that they were distracted by men before men came up with such ailment and that men should pray behind the women or stay home.

No man with dignity and self respect would have thought of such a ridiculous and self demeaning excuse to get privileges. They seem to want to be treated all teir lives as if they were minors unable to become adults and have a grip on themselves. Obviously when one reaches certain age and insists on being considered irresponsible is at the same time relinquishing any claim to being respected. Respected by someone to whom they are confessing that they cannot control themselves? And out of the mosque they can control themselves? Pleaaaaase.

Haven't we had enough of this cheap sexual theatre displayed to cling to privileges while disdaining the most elementary courtesy due to persons who are the mothers of human beings.

All that sweet talk about how much respect for women is showed in islam is pure hypocrisy when at the same time keeping a discourse which is pure rudeness.

Salaam

Invalid777

You mentioned not wanting women praying in front of you. Well, I can understand that in context of the sunni/shia/.. traditional yoga like salutations. I guess the so called Islamic style prayer where you expose your bottom towards those behind you simply doesn't allow for women and men mixed without putting to much pressure on men that are mentally defenceless against their hormones.

So I'm changing my mind. I was foolish enough to think in terms of purpose of prayer. I totally forgot that what people are engaged in during the salat/namaz (or whatever you call it that happens in masjids) is basically something physical and material, and has virtually nothing to do with connection to your Rabb (prayer). Islam apparently has a built-in design in the practises that make mixing problematic.

So now my statement is amended like this

Women can definately lead people in prayer, but perhaps they should not bend down and exposing their "hour glass figure" in front of people when leading the Islamic bowing and bending ritual. Obviously, these are different things.... prayer vs bending. When I say prayer, I mean the group activity of deliberate attention through guided focus pertaining to expressing gratitude and wishes etc in relation to the Rabb. Therefor prayer is different from Islamic Bending. Women may lead prayer, but perhaps not Islamic Bending. Men just won't be able to handle it.

I was wrong. No women for leading namaz (unless it is an all women gathering).
But then again, what's the point in doing the namaz? Better to do something spiritually useful. Let men run to the mosques to show off their piety. Less social pressure for women.

-X

You hit the nail on the head. The Islamic gymnastic sessions known as salat just goes to show how spiritually dead the religion is. It's so dead that their imaginary God completely forgot to address the physically disabled on how they should perform the gymnastic sessions let alone how take part in the yearly marathon hajj. Your obedience to God depends entirely on taking part in the gymnastic sessions. Just take a look at this silly interpretation of 3/43
Q;0343 - O Maryam, be devoutly obedient to your LORD and PROSTRATE and KNEEL WITH THOSE WHO KNEEL.

Apparently, Maryams obedience to the Rabb depended on her performing some physical movements, "bow", "prostrate" and "kneel with those who kneel". In other words, you need a fully functioning body in order for to be "devoutly obedient" to the Rabb. If you were paralyzed or born physically deformed, you are the opposite of being obedient. Disobedient. This imaginary God who forgot to address your disabilities will now torture you for eternity because you were disobedient and did not "bow, kneel and prostrate" with the devoutly obedient.
For reference, here is what "devoutly obedient" women look like.
https//encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbnANd9GcTYeQZlLDxqgp7E-1tMoI8OwZOqjoJvkNIvvAWDr8Iu3EGoDmAr

Let me just super clear here. Devout obedience to the Rabb is not spiritual but a MATERIAL matter. Frankly, Islam is nothing more than a materialistic religion that has its entire focus on material matters. Marathon hajj, gymnastic salat, religious uniform, "halal" food, list of prohibitions such as having dogs as pets, dying hair, using nail polish, eating with right hand, starving yourself 30 days a year etc. A women's piety depends on whether she has a piece of cloth wrapped around her head to cover the hair follicles on her head. It has completely neglected the Ruh/soul and its needs. It doesn't teach self-awareness or self-control but the urge for revenge and engaging in pagan rituals. Religion leads to spiritual death. You are dead before your physical body even died. In other words, you were unaware of yourself. You never existed because you failed to know yourself. If you fail to control your body, just blame the invisible horned dude made of fire flying around and whispering into peoples ears. Play the blame game.

Islam only seems to work in a closed environment. It is just incompatible with not just different genders mixing,but also different cultures and religions. When you join this cult, you must give up your culture and wear the Islamic uniform and eat "halal" food. Like street gangs, Islam is in competition with rival cults. It belittles of other cults for doing the exact same thing they're doing. Cube Idol/Wailing Wall, Halal food/Kosher food, Hadith books/Talmud books, religious uniform as well as the idolization of dead people Muhammad/Jesus and sahaba/disciples.

Here is a comparison between the people Islam considers to be mushriks and the "devoutly obedient" who kneel, bow and prostrate.
http//i.imgur.com/cVU7p90.jpg

It just isn't worth arguing about whether women should be allowed to join and lead the gymnastic sessions known as salat because it is a baseless argument. There is no point even performing it so why bother arguing on who can join and who cannot when the whole thing is based on falsehood?

Peace

es

Peace,

You hit the nail on the head. The Islamic gymnastic sessions known as salat just goes to show how spiritually dead the religion is. It's so dead that their imaginary God completely forgot to address the physically disabled on how they should perform the gymnastic sessions let alone how take part in the yearly marathon hajj. Your obedience to God depends entirely on taking part in the gymnastic sessions. Just take a look at this silly interpretation of 3/43
Q;0343 - O Maryam, be devoutly obedient to your LORD and PROSTRATE and KNEEL WITH THOSE WHO KNEEL.

Apparently, Maryams obedience to the Rabb depended on her performing some physical movements, "bow", "prostrate" and "kneel with those who kneel". In other words, you need a fully functioning body in order for to be "devoutly obedient" to the Rabb. If you were paralyzed or born physically deformed, you are the opposite of being obedient. Disobedient. This imaginary God who forgot to address your disabilities will now torture you for eternity because you were disobedient and did not "bow, kneel and prostrate" with the devoutly obedient.
For reference, here is what "devoutly obedient" women look like.
https//encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbnANd9GcTYeQZlLDxqgp7E-1tMoI8OwZOqjoJvkNIvvAWDr8Iu3EGoDmAr

Let me just super clear here. Devout obedience to the Rabb is not spiritual but a MATERIAL matter. Frankly, Islam is nothing more than a materialistic religion that has its entire focus on material matters. Marathon hajj, gymnastic salat, religious uniform, "halal" food, list of prohibitions such as having dogs as pets, dying hair, using nail polish, eating with right hand, starving yourself 30 days a year etc. A women's piety depends on whether she has a piece of cloth wrapped around her head to cover the hair follicles on her head. It has completely neglected the Ruh/soul and its needs. It doesn't teach self-awareness or self-control but the urge for revenge and engaging in pagan rituals. Religion leads to spiritual death. You are dead before your physical body even died. In other words, you were unaware of yourself. You never existed because you failed to know yourself. If you fail to control your body, just blame the invisible horned dude made of fire flying around and whispering into peoples ears. Play the blame game.

Islam only seems to work in a closed environment. It is just incompatible with not just different genders mixing,but also different cultures and religions. When you join this cult, you must give up your culture and wear the Islamic uniform and eat "halal" food. Like street gangs, Islam is in competition with rival cults. It belittles of other cults for doing the exact same thing they're doing. Cube Idol/Wailing Wall, Halal food/Kosher food, Hadith books/Talmud books, religious uniform as well as the idolization of dead people Muhammad/Jesus and sahaba/disciples.

Here is a comparison between the people Islam considers to be mushriks and the "devoutly obedient" who kneel, bow and prostrate.
http//i.imgur.com/cVU7p90.jpg

It just isn't worth arguing about whether women should be allowed to join and lead the gymnastic sessions known as salat because it is a baseless argument. There is no point even performing it so why bother arguing on who can join and who cannot when the whole thing is based on falsehood?

Peace

From where did you get this "mushrik" image?

es

Salaam huruf,