Can a women lead a congregational prayer with men and women mixed behind her?
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Study,
You don't have to do all of that explaining. Only bigoted minds would make so many assumptions about you. What you said was simple, true and helpful. I did not misinterpret you or make ANY assumptions about your background.
This same sort of mentality displayed by the people arguing what you said is the mentality that has led to many Western Christian women going to church in tight or short skirts and showing cleavage. Of course the men who look at them or are distracted by them are just nasty, sex-crazed men who shouldn't even be allowed in a church or any decent human place because they must be sex-crazed perverts who can't even function in normal society. nope Unbelievable!!!
Have you seen the youtube video "Gospel from the strippers pole" ??
I know it is extreme but this is the beginning. Soon no Muslim man will have the right to say anything about how Muslim women are dressed EVEN if they quote directly from the Quran. Believe it!!
https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=f1B6yaqbtxU
Notice how this man is completely submissiveto this nonsense!
Of course, any of you men who entertained any "inappropriate" thoughts while listening to her Christian sermon are just sexual perverts who should not be allowed into society, let alone into any religious institution!!
nope Unbelievable!
Salam
Well, this video sure is "extreme".
Check out this video https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=db2D_bY-GF4 rotfl
I think they're just individuals, no need to worry that they're going to change the mind of the masses. Which would be a nice thing if they managed to do anyway, it's not like the mainstream islam is quranic.But I wonder what you mean with "quote directly from the Quran".
Where in the Quran are "clear" instructions on how a women should dress? Isn't that up to interpretation?
The Quran as far I know tells women to dress moderately, how do we define moderate? Does that meaning not vary depending on what culture/country one lives in?Anyway, I believe we're getting offtopic (wanted to use this smiley ;D)
To answer OP, if what you understand under salat is different than what I've learned (not physical), than I see no problem in women taking the lead.
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Laying in bed right now, reflecting on this discussion and I just realised how wrong our behaviour is and I regret having linked that video.
We don't know what kind of connection they may have with God. We're being superficial and may be worse people than them. To us our belief and to them theirs. -
Salam,
The Quran explicitly tells women to cover up the bosom/chest, which includes the collar bones. 2431
It explicitly speaks about wearing 'long clothing'. 3359
It also explicitly forbids tabarrruj, which includes clothing that shows women's form or shape.
2460, 3333
Salaam
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Now you invent something using the Arabic, al-salataayn. It does not tell about form and shape in the last two passages but about using charm, i.e. act alluringly, conspicuously and thus make a display of yourself. A woman can use her form and shape and mode of dress for that purpose. Most traditional translators actually get the word right in their translations.
Be safe
Amenuel -
If insted of such long crusades for women clothing, menn who indulge in them did their "own" crusade for men's self-control they would be better served.
The ayas quoted are always twisted so as to serve their purpose con fiscalizing women, and never in their ontext and in their own meaning. Like using 33.59 what the person ho uses it what he is saying is that he is a hypocrite, because it was because of the hypocrites at a tie on the believers were being persecuted that aya says what it says, whatever it is, because this is always not the same thing.
So what is this disease that when someone virtue is at stake the talk revolves about some one else doing this or that.
Why do we get for hundreds or rather thousands of times, we, the women, who are not the culprits, ayas taken out of context and twisted for their purpose, and above all
WHY do they not get down to their own ayas. There is aa beautiful sura of Yusuf, showing how a real believing man behaves.
Men on a crusade
Go back to something worth and talk about Yusuf and compare yourselves with him and other prophets and worthy men, dead oor alive, and eave us alone. We do not need your fiscalazing nor your watching over us as if we were your prize.
You owe to yourselves and you owe to God, in this question the only thing you owe us is not your teachings because you have none for us that we coudn't get ourselves andyou are no example, what you owe us is respect and if you are unable to show that just don't tell us anything. Nothing at all. Any disponibility you have for lessons, teach them to yourselves, you need them much more.
And grow up.
Salaam
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Hi,
yes agreed, but what does dress modestly mean?
Not everyone has the same definition for dressing modest.
Here in The Netherlands they have other definition then in Saudi Arabia.and all across the west we keep hearing feminists and many women say "why are men staring at me!" when women won't hesitate staring at a handsome men dress unmodestly
what defines modesty is simple you look at the behaviour of people around people not dressed modestly
Ok thank you. For me sinning means doing something bad/evil.
If you do not consider it a sin, then what is your problem with it?because "evil", "bad", "sin", they're all buzzwords that do not give a realistic view of what really happens
lots of people still believe that promiscuity is not wrong because the immediate reward you get from being promiscuous feels good, yet in the usa, they talk about STD epidemicsso is promiscuity "evil" or "bad"? how would you argue that promiscuity is "bad" or "evil" to someone who promotes to people around them and who practice this in their daily lives, and who hides behind pretensions of freedom to spread an idea that's actually false? If you start offering criticism to such people, they will say "you are a prude you hate sex" when you've actually never talked about the act itself but a very specific behaviour
i've spoken to so many individuals like that in the west, every time they bring up the same fallacies to genuine concerns that can be observed by anyoneyes agreed, but we are not talking about ourselves because we wear modest clothes (whatever that may mean to us), we are talking about others. If someone dresses him/herself in a negative way what has that to do with your actions, if it really bad how they dress then it's like I said their problem not yours or mine.
let's say i decide to wear a golden chain with golden watch and diamond with golden rings, and go to a poor neighborhood that is known to be run by gangs and what not
i dressed immodestly, and will risk receiving great harm as a result
i bring up that example because it is something that often happens
my action was to dress that way, and it wasn't a sin, it wasn't evil, it wasn't bad, yet i received negative attention from this action
it becomes our problem when activists manage to get the president to parrot blatant lies and fabricationsI have no idea what you mean with uneducated people, but how can they influence you if you are an educated one? You should be smart enough not to let them influence you.
because i'm not talking about myself i'm talking about people who are easily influenced, and who are led by equally uneducated people but who have ill intentions in mind
in the west, people tried to influence me to get drunk to the point i wouldn't be able to stand, to do drugs, to go to prostitutes or to engage in promiscuous behaviour, yet none offered to help me in areas where i needed help, like mathematics for example
and this happens to so many people, it's tragicin the end it is freedom to become a failure, and i don't call this freedom i call this delusion
If I believe in a freedom system, then I must also believe in freedom of speech, thus that YOU CAN offer critic on whoever or whatever you like.
once again going back to precedents, many who tried to offer criticism of feminism in the usa or canada have been ostracised violently, their names and reputation destroyed by the media using lies and fabrications, outright trying to ban words (like the ban bossy campaign) even if the intention wasn't to actually ban words they still spread the notion that a word should be banned
and i didn't even touch the subject of criticism of sunni islam or wahabism yet, it is not as widespread but it is definitely more intense as you can actually get killed for speaking about unconvenient truths concerning this subject
RED Sorry I do not know what this folsom street fair is.
GREEN I guess so.don't google it
not sure what your point is.
rule of law doesn't mean much, there are strong laws that are imposed on the people in the middle east, yet the system they have there produced countries that trail behind compared to the west
not every one believes in the quran.
i talk about the group of people who follow it
I believe in freedom as long as this freedom does not hurt fellow humans or animals or nature in general.
I do not like, piercing, tattoos, nudity,etc , but I have absolutely no problem with people who have piercings, tattoos or go to nude beaches as long as they do not harm others or nature in general.
Those who pierce their body, it's their body who gets holes not mine. Those who do tattoos are painting their bodies not mine. Those who go naked, are the ones who are naked not me.
And if they like it, then who am I to judge them?it's the same issue as with the promiscuous behaviour i described earlier
But what is modest dressing according to you, can you show me a picture of what you think is the minimal. And what should we do to people who go beyond this minimum.
whether it be in turkey, france, germany, or sweden, most men wear comfortable loose pants with loose shirts/tops
as soon as you start seeing people check you out, it's time to wear something else to be honest you would only know that feeling if it happened to you though
or move inw with one of those wonderful tropical tribes who wear nothing
as for those who don't follow that very simple logic, they either stop complaining about people checking them out or people taking pictures of them, or they change clothes, i mean it's freedom after all, and if you're in the public place, you can't complain about being taken a picture of by others
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If insted of such long crusades for women clothing, menn who indulge in them did their "own" crusade for men's self-control they would be better served.
to be honest you would only know that women stare at handsome men dressed immodestly if it happened to you
in the quran, it says everyone has to dress modestly, you seem to hate the idea that it is the case for women as well
"So what is this disease that when someone virtue is at stake the talk revolves about some one else doing this or that. "
this is what i witness in the west women that can protest completely naked, but if anyone dares criticize that protest, they're labelled "prudish", "homosexual", and many other labels
men have become so docile in the west they are afraid to speak up anymore
so what should i say when i see something like this happen? is it me that should shut my mouth, or is it the NAKED WOMAN IN THE STREET that should be dressed up instead of complaining about being observed, taken photos and videos of, cat called, so on and so forth
that's the extreme scenario, and i see no reason why i shouldn't use that extreme as an example because it happened multiple times in multiple european countries and the usa as well
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Peace SC.
I thought I could trust you?
Since ,I am not sure if I can, I will tell you a story about the "lady Imam"
Once, the people of the city invited a lady Imam to deliver a speech. When she got on the minbar (pulpit), she found the audience was not very enthusiastic, so she asked "Do you know what I am going to say?" The audience replied "NO", so she announced "I have no desire to speak to people who don't even know what I will be talking about" and she left.
The people felt embarrassed and called her back again the next day. This time when she asked the same question, the people replied "YES" So she said, "Well, since you already know what I am going to say, I won't waste any more of your time" and she left.
Now the people were really perplexed. They decided to try one more time and once again invited her to speak the following week. Once again she asked the same question - "Do you know what I am going to say?" Now the people were prepared and so half of them answered "YES" while the other half replied "NO". So the lady Imam said "The half who know what I am going to say, tell it to the other half" and she left!Serves them right.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Just to make sure I got this right, you're saying that the physical movements standing, bowing and prostrating. Are not Quranic?
Please explain, why does the Quran mention these movements? Metaphorical?These are "the monotheist group"'s translations, mind that I don't know Arabic.
2238 Maintain the contact prayers; and the middle contact prayer; and stand for God dutifully.Hi Study,
Even if you take sallaat= "contact prayer (traditional way)" then you still have to read the sentence as an enumeration.
2238.......AND..........AND..........2239 But if you are fearful, then you may do so while walking or riding. If you become secure, then remember God as He has taught you what you did not know.
fearful to do a "contact prayer"???
56 O you who believe, if you rise to hold the contact prayer, then wash your faces and your hands up to the elbows, and wipe your heads and your feet to the ankles; and if you have had intercourse, then you shall purify. And if you are ill, or traveling, or you have excreted feces, or you have had sexual contact with the women, and you cannot not find water, then you shall select from the clean soil; you shall wipe your faces and your hands with it. God does not want to place any hardship on you, but He wants to cleanse you and to complete His blessings upon you that you may be thankful.
Do you do the spiritual cleansing? Or do you have a different approach on this as well? No offence, sincere interest.
and this verse tells us to "rise" to hold the prayer doesn't it?RED How does one clean himself spiritually for a contact prayer?
BLUE no it does not say to "rise" to hold the sallaat but it says "IF YOU RISE to hold the sallaat."
Anyways, the verse begins like this (in your translation) "O you who believe, if you rise to hold the contact prayer, THEN ..."
aren't the actions what follow the things to do for sallaat? instead of doing them before the sallaat?4102 And if you are with them and you hold the contact prayer for them, then let a group from among them stand with you and let them bring their weapons; and when they have prostrated then let them be behind you; and let a group who has not yet made the contact prayer come and make the contact prayer with you, and let them be wary and let them bring their weapons with them. The rejecters hope that you would neglect your weapons and goods so they can come upon you in one blow. There is no sin upon you if you are impeded by rainfall, or if you are ill, that you place down your weapons. And be wary. God has prepared for the rejecters a humiliating retribution.
The praying group is standing.
And if I have no legs?
2226 And We have appointed to Abraham the location of the Sanctuary "Do not set up anyone with Me, and purify My Sanctuary for those who visit, and those who are standing, and the kneeling, the prostrating."
what has this to do with sallaat?
4829 Mohammed is the messenger of God, and those who are with him are severe against the rejecters, but merciful between themselves. You see them kneeling and prostrating, they seek the blessings and approval of God. Their distinction is in their faces, as a result of prostrating. Such is their example in the Torah. And their example in the Gospel is like a plant which shoots out and becomes strong and thick and it stands straight on its trunk, pleasing to the farmers. That He may enrage the rejecters with them. God promises those among them who believe and do good works a forgiveness and a great reward.
what has this to do with sallaat? And a lot of people kneel and prostate for God and they are not with Mohammed.
4102 And if you are with them and you hold the contact prayer for them, then let a group from among them stand with you and let them bring their weapons; and when they have prostrated then let them be behind you(end of salat); and let a group who has not yet made the contact prayer come and make the contact prayer with you, and let them be wary and let them bring their weapons with them. The rejecters hope that you would neglect your weapons and goods so they can come upon you in one blow. There is no sin upon you if you are impeded by rainfall, or if you are ill, that you place down your weapons. And be wary. God has prepared for the rejecters a humiliating retribution.
RED The translation is already very questionable don't make it worse with extra brackets.
If you want my advice try to investigate the word sallaat again but this time without any fixed interpretation.
Salaam,
Bender -
Hello Bender,
Glad you have begun to see the inconsistency with the traditional interpretation of salat too, even if you might not be on par with me. Take care.
Be safe
Amenuel -
Man of faith,
Look up tabarruj in lisanul-Arab and MMAA (Mu'jam mufradaat al-Faadh Al-Quran). Then we will talk about its meaning. Or are these books base don traditionalist conspiracies to dictate women's dress out of their insecurity and lustful ways as men?
nope SMH
Study,
You were within your rights to post that video. This is what many here want Islamic practice to look like. As long as they are wearing clothing somehow that is modest enough.
Salaam.
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Hello Bender,
Glad you have begun to see the inconsistency with the traditional interpretation of salat too, even if you might not be on par with me. Take care.
Be safe
AmenuelHi Amenuel,
It was like 2 years ago when I finally had the redeeming ! (yes I am a little bit slow )
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Study,
You were within your rights to post that video. This is what many here want Islamic practice to look like. As long as they are wearing clothing somehow that is modest enough.
Salaam.
Hi,
Did your Islamic practice teach you to post a youtube film with a woman of whom you can see half of her nipples?
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Study,
You were within your rights to post that video. This is what many here want Islamic practice to look like. As long as they are wearing clothing somehow that is modest enough.
Salaam.
With full respect, I believe not.
One outward mistake does not mean that they are bad people, we may have tons of inward mistakes.
Who are we to point at others? I believe that criticism should occur through a mirror and not through a monocular.I still use the term mistake because I find Man of Faith's "your soul is the real you" idea to be true. Our body is just a container. And these girls look like they've had operations to gain the look that they desire, which I find kills the real you (soul) by putting layers of lies over yourself.
Hi Study,
Even if you take sallaat= "contact prayer (traditional way)" then you still have to read the sentence as an enumeration.
2238.......AND..........AND..........
fearful to do a "contact prayer"???I feel stupid for asking, but, what do you mean with enumeration?
And the fearful part, the way I understood means if you're being attacked or something alike. Hop on your horses and make a run for the threat ;DFor me that part shows that "usually" you don't walk/run while praying and thought that meant you have a certain action which you need to do.
But now that I think about it, it could also mean "usually" you sit, or stand, or lie, who knows, it simply excludes moving.RED How does one clean himself spiritually for a contact prayer?
I meant
"O you who believe, when you rise to observe the Salat, you shall wash your faces and your arms to the elbows, and wipe your heads and your feet to the ankles." 56It's often argued in mainstream islam that the purpose of wudu is cleansing oneself physically.
I believe it to be spiritually. In verse 56 "taharah" is used."The angels said, "O Mary, God has chosen you and 'tahharik', and He has chosen you over the women of all the people." 342
God didn't wash Mary. God purified her."Take from their money a charity to 'tuttaherahum' and sanctify them." 9103
Donation purifies the believers, it doesn't wash them."Those are the ones whose hearts God did not want to 'yuttahhir'. They shall have humiliation in this world, and in the Hereafter they shall have a great punishment." 541
So as a conclusion I take that the purpose of 56 (wudu) is spiritual cleansing.
Another argument being
"If you are ill or travelling, or if any of you has come from the toilet, or had sexual contact with the women, and you could not find water, you shall observe Tayammum by means of wiping your faces and hands with clean dry soil." 443Doing so tests our will. Will we go through the trouble of doing something so basic or will we give in to our ego and be lazy.
For those who don't perform physical salat, my question is do they do 56 as well? And how would you call it if not spiritual cleansing?
BLUE no it does not say to "rise" to hold the sallaat but it says "IF YOU RISE to hold the sallaat."
Anyways, the verse begins like this (in your translation) "O you who believe, if you rise to hold the contact prayer, THEN ..."
aren't the actions what follow the things to do for sallaat? instead of doing them before the sallaat?Good argument.
And if I have no legs?
Then you simply follow another religion
I thought that the "But if you are fearful, then you may do so while walking or riding" implies that God does not require us to do the movements, it's the intention that counts. God knows our intentions/what's in our hearts and holds us responsible therefore. 2225 463
RED The translation is already very questionable don't make it worse with extra brackets.
If you want my advice try to investigate the word sallaat again but this time without any fixed interpretation.
Salaam,
BenderThe extra brackets were to imply my understanding so that my intentions came across.
I agree when you say that I have to invest time in the word sallaat.
peace
Be well. -
Hi,
Did your Islamic practice teach you to post a youtube film with a woman of whom you can see half of her nipples?
is a word worse than an actual act that happened? does talking about the action make someone worse than the person who actually performed the action?
when people say "modest clothing is subjective", the door is open to 100 interpretations
pretty much how sects in Islam sprung up, from people who thought the rules and system laid out in the quran were to be associated with the prophet through hadiths and what notis there a hundred ways to shoot someone in the head with a gun other than pulling the trigger and aiming the gun at the head? or can we say this is subjective as well and cannot be deterministic?
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Bender,
It doesn't surprise me that this is the route you took. Of course I am to blame...of course. That's called trolling and it is pretty much the same logic you and other feminists here have been using. Have fun with that! nope SMH
Salam
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Umm, I forgot to mention that couple of weeks ago, I came across one FB post which had something serious to say about congressional prayer. It was from a Quran follower to a hadither. He pointed out that during such prayer, a person prostrates to the rear end of the person in front of him.
http//media.web.britannica.com/eb-media/02/92802-004-860DE3FD.jpg
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Umm, I forgot to mention that couple of weeks ago, I came across one FB post which had something serious to say about congressional prayer. It was from a Quran follower to a hadither. He pointed out that during such prayer, a person prostrates to the rear end of the person in front of him.
http//media.web.britannica.com/eb-media/02/92802-004-860DE3FD.jpg
Well, your signature is a lie. Incorrect is not your password. nope
If you take a look at the left side of that picture you can clearly see a person sitting in a wheelchair praying as well.
Even if I do end up not performing physical salat, (hopefully) I won't are judge other people.
I find it simply rude and offensive. Just imagine them turning out to be correct and them prostating being part of the salat.
How would I face God? I made fun of them for doing something which you ordered them to do?Be well. peace
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I feel stupid for asking, but, what do you mean with enumeration?
Hi,
Probably it's my fault, maybe I used the wrong English word.
The last part of the verse is not an inclusion of one of the 2 actions before it, it's also an action.
And the fearful part, the way I understood means if you're being attacked or something alike. Hop on your horses and make a run for the threat ;D
I am glad you see the humor in it, does it make any sense to you?
For me that part shows that "usually" you don't walk/run while praying and thought that meant you have a certain action which you need to do.
But now that I think about it, it could also mean "usually" you sit, or stand, or lie, who knows, it simply excludes moving.RED Like what?
BLUE It could also mean something else.I meant
"O you who believe, when you rise to observe the Salat, you shall wash your faces and your arms to the elbows, and wipe your heads and your feet to the ankles." 56It's often argued in mainstream islam that the purpose of wudu is cleansing oneself physically.
I believe it to be spiritually. In verse 56 "taharah" is used."The angels said, "O Mary, God has chosen you and 'tahharik', and He has chosen you over the women of all the people." 342
God didn't wash Mary. God purified her.I understood what you meant. But the question stays the same, how do I do a spiritual cleaning before the prayer. Remember I am not Mary, I have to do this myself, so how should I spiritually clean myself before I pray?
"Take from their money a charity to 'tuttaherahum' and sanctify them." 9103
Donation purifies the believers, it doesn't wash them.I have to do a donation before I pray?
"Those are the ones whose hearts God did not want to 'yuttahhir'. They shall have humiliation in this world, and in the Hereafter they shall have a great punishment." 541
So as a conclusion I take that the purpose of 56 (wudu) is spiritual cleansing.
RED Why did you not follow my advice >( NEVER conclude something, just take it as the best option you have so far.
Another argument being
"If you are ill or travelling, or if any of you has come from the toilet, or had sexual contact with the women, and you could not find water, you shall observe Tayammum by means of wiping your faces and hands with clean dry soil." 443Doing so tests our will. Will we go through the trouble of doing something so basic or will we give in to our ego and be lazy.
For those who don't perform physical salat, my question is do they do 56 as well?
Ever thought that maybe sallaat does not mean prayer?
I believe every mumeen who gives importance to sallaat does 56 by instinct even if he/she never read the quran.
And how would you call it if not spiritual cleansing?
I don't think there is any cleansing (spiritually or physically) in 56, so I can not really answer this question.
Good argument.
Then you simply follow another religionYes I follow my religion
I thought that the "But if you are fearful, then you may do so while walking or riding" implies that God does not require us to do the movements, it's the intention that counts. God knows our intentions/what's in our hearts and holds us responsible therefore. 2225 463
If God does not require the movements when we are fearfull then why does He require them when we are not fearful?
The extra brackets were to imply my understanding so that my intentions came across. I agree when you say that I have to invest time in the word sallaat.
Yes I know.
Just an advice, never read what is in the brackets of translations, it was not hard for the author of the quran to put brackets if he wanted it.peace
Be well.salaam,
Bender