REQUEST FOR CONSULTATION: I CAN'T GO TO MY DISBELIEVING PARENT FUNERAL!!!

HP_TECH

Peace HP_TECH

I would leave the matter to GOD. How?

GOD knows your situation, by turning this whole matter over to Him, you will be seeking His help and why not?

Implore Him to find a way out of the situation for you. May be you will find yourself hundreds or thousands of miles away from everyone or may be you wont?

Either way , there is nothing wrong in lending moral support to family and friends when there is a death or a tragedy. You are dealing with the living not praying for the dead.
God knows your inner thoughts.Trust Him.

Anyway, that is my advice.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

O good_logic,

I did as you advised in my supplication and during salat this morning my Lord answered me saying
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"O you who believe! Indeed, from your spouses and your children (are) enemies to you, so beware of them. But if you pardon and overlook and forgive, then indeed, Allah (is) Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful."

Not has my Lord been ever unkind to me in my supplication, chills went down my spine, tears swelled up and I fell on my face in a culmination of indescribable emotion.
I will now ask my Lord more in my affairs, upon Him is the explanation O brothers!

HP_TECH

We experienced this. Unable to defend his position, our sunni uncle started calling us wahabbis (traditionally used to denote someone who is violent as if wahabbis are not from their sect). Now that majority of the relatives know about our belief they try to push hadiths on us hoping someday we would return to their bukhari worshiping religion. I never preached my belief to them and still! It?s good that they don?t live in this state. But cemetery people prevented us from choosing a Quran verse for my mom?s stone because according to their Gods (scholars who make Islamic laws somewhere in Saudi), it is haram. I wanted to take action against it. Apparently, our American law allows enforcement of religious laws on private properties.

I know you are going through a tough time more than us, but unfortunately, neither of our situations matches what the Prophets went through. You can take drastic action against the disbelievers only if they stoop extremely low. Prophet Ibrahim?s father threatened to get him stoned. According to Quran, we have to give all the right to criticize us. So next time they ridicule you apply these verses
2855And when they hear ill speech, they turn away from it and say, "For us are our deeds, and for you are your deeds. Peace will be upon you; we seek not the ignorant." -Allow them to enjoy freedom of speech

3146 And how many a prophet has had to fight , followed by many God-devoted men and they did not become faint of heart for all that they had to suffer in God's cause, and neither did they weaken, nor did they abase themselves, since God loves those who are patient in adversity;- Don't feel like you are losing

3186 You shall most certainly be tried in your possessions and in your persons; and indeed you shall hear many hurtful things from those to whom revelation was granted before your time, as well as from those who have come to ascribe divinity to other beings beside God. But if you remain PATIENT in adversity and conscious of Him - this, behold, is something to set one's heart upon.- Be patient while remembering Allah.

I don't want to wrongfully portray my family. They are kind to me, we eat dinner together, we joke around together and watch tv, it is just that whenever the topic of God arrives they turn quickly. Yes, it is hurtful at times but nothing my soul cannot bear. I have been patient for the most part although sometimes I recite back to them something to shake their shells in response to their aggression.
I am sorry about what you have gone through with your family. I like your advise about being patient it resonates with my Lord answered me this morning.
I sometimes reply those exact words to them "Peace, For you are your deeds and for us are our deeds"
My request is not because I am feeling down (like I am losing), or not patient towards what is occurring, it is because I legitimately have a concern about supporting a deceased disbeliever in death.

Override it by telling your mom the truth that you don't know the man and that you don't wanna embarrass her at the funeral. Just imagine the words not describing him properly. Thus, its better for her to do it. You would just check if it looks good "grammatically". Go to the funeral, but don't pray if it makes you feel you are violating your belief.

That's actually the only thing my mother asked me, check the grammar, well basically she wants to dictate to me while I type for her and correct the grammar. She knows her father neglected us, she is not expecting me to write anything from my perspective. She wants me to use my writing skills to basically help her write her eulogy. I would be however contributing in Tusalli for my grandfather in some way. My soul and heart and guidance and instinct tell me no, tell me that I am approaching a limit. There is something in my stomach, which is why I am opposed to it. What I read in the Quran and how my being is reacting are indicative to me that I should gracefully avoid doing anything.
I can't go to the funeral because it is in Africa. But you think that it would be appropriate for me to go to a funeral of a deceased disbeliever even after 984?

HP_TECH

Your reasoning is a bit silly actually even though they have ridiculed you. One cannot die who is already dead. I think that you harm your relationship with your family and they might cut relations and think you are a cold-hearted bastard and also think the sect has made you crazy.

Amenuel....924 I am not concerned about getting a decline in wealth nor losing my family Allah is more beloved to me.

There is also no such thing as disbelievers but they are in that case deluded, lost, and you could try to help them the best you can. They are not impure things not worthy of touching and normal Homo Sapiens and we could pity them for not realizing about their own origin, but your parents are still your parents and brought you into this world and carried you and cared for you, to the best of their ability. Will you denounce them after that? It seems a bit heartless.

Be safe
Amenuel

Man your response did not address any of my questions.
How can I help the deceased Amenuel? I cannot especially if they have died as deluded or lost. I cannot help them/support in anything. That is the question in my post essentially. It is not about the living but the deceased.

Re-read the post please. Ibrahim and his people denounced their families and people 604. While they were alive, including Abraham's father. Hatred between them forever until they believe in Allah alone. Was that heartless? I never claimed they were impure or anything of the sort. I am talking about living with them in kindness and respect in this life of the world. But disassociating from them when they have passed away as deniers, rejecters.

Now that I've clarified do you have better advice?

Be safe as well

zayd

Hello.

Chapters 9 and 60 are about war and strife.

Maybe you should reread the whole thing, in particular, and the verse right before . How does your family fit into , or , or ? Also, have your family ever tried to burn you alive?

If it weren't for your understanding of the Qur'an, if it weren't for your religion and your family's religion, if these things suddenly don't matter anymore, would you attend your family member's funeral or not? Yes or No?

If you refuse to attend someone's funeral because of some personal feud, then that's a different matter, but to use the Qur'an to justify shunning a family member's funeral just because they belong to a different religion would be unjust indeed. Again, please reread .

hawk99

Peace HP_TECH do not take enemies of your lord for friends
Are your family members "hostile opponents" at war with us as in surah 9
are you in danger from them or have they simply chosen another path.

According to what you say below they are not the enemies of Islam

I don't want to wrongfully portray my family. They are kind to me, we eat dinner
together, we joke around together and watch tv, it is just that whenever the topic of
God arrives they turn quickly. Yes, it is hurtful at times but nothing my soul cannot bear.

Be kind to your mother it is better for you (your heart)

46/15 And We have enjoined upon man, to his parents, good treatment. His mother
carried him with hardship and gave birth to him with hardship, and his gestation
and weaning is thirty months. until, when he reaches maturity
and reaches forty years, he says, "My Lord, enable me to be grateful
for Your favor which You have bestowed upon me and upon my parents and to
work righteousness of which You will approve and make righteous for me my
offspring. Indeed, I have repented to You, and indeed, I am of the Muslims."

6/151" Say Come. I will recite unto you that which your Lord has made a
sacred duty for you; that you ascribe nothing as partner unto Him and that
you do good to parents..."

As I see it, it is not about you but about your mother. Participate and support her
for her sake whereas you are safe from disobedience to Allah because you heart is not in it.

peace

HP_TECH

Hello.

Hello

Chapters 9 and 60 are about war and strife.

Maybe you should reread the whole thing, in particular, and the verse right before . How does your family fit into , or , or ? Also, have your family ever tried to burn you alive?

No, no I am perfectly aware of what 608-9 are conveying. Just as I am aware that the underlying theme is about those opposing the believers. I do not hold that it is necessarily regarding those fighting the believers. As I have stated Abraham and his followers were not at war. As for in chapter 9, you cannot simply do away with this evidence by saying they were at war. That is exactly why I posted such a long portion of Chapter 9 so you can see how the hypocrites have been described and there would be no excuse for you as to the inclusion of relevant ayaats to this topic. They are not only those who did not want to go to war and sat behind. Was this their only trait that caused them to have died as disbelievers?
Please judge according to truth and use reason.
They hypocrites died as disbelievers because they refused to spend in the way of Allah with their wealth and their lives among many other things which are described in Chapter 9. Take a look at all these descriptions of their traits.

950 When any good befalls you, it upsets them, and if any bad befalls you, they say ?We have taken our precaution beforehand,? and they turn away happy.

954 And what prevented what they would spend from being accepted from them except that they rejected God and His messenger, and they do not attend the contact prayer except lazily, and they do not spend except unwillingly.

956 And they swear by God that they are with you, while they are not with you; but they are a people who are indecisive.

958 And from them are those who criticize you regarding the charities. If they are given from it, they are content; and if they are not given from it, they become enraged!

961 And from them are those who harm the prophet, and they say ?He only listens!? Say ?What he listens to is best for you. He believes in God, and he has trust for the believers, and he is a mercy to those who believe among you.? And those who harm the messenger of God will have a painful retribution.

962 They swear to you by God in order to please you; while God and His messenger are more worthy to be pleased if they are believers.

963 Did they not know that whoever is hostile towards God and His messenger, he will have the fire of Hell, abiding therein. Such is the greatest humiliation.

964 The hypocrites fear that a chapter will be sent down which will expose what is in their hearts. Say ?Mock, for God will bring out what you fear.?

965 And if you ask them they say ?We were only jesting and playing.? Say ?In God and His revelations and His messenger you were mocking??

967 The hypocrite males and the hypocrite females, they are to each other. They order vice and prohibit good, and they close their hands. They forgot God, so He will forget them; indeed, the hypocrites are the wicked.

After all these descriptions

973 O prophet, strive against the rejecters and the hypocrites and be firm against them. Their dwelling is Hell, what a miserable destiny!

974 They swear by God that they did not say it, while they had said the word of rejection, and they rejected after they had submitted, and they were obsessed with what they could not possess; and they could not find any fault except that God and His messenger had enriched them from His bounty. If they repent it is better for them, and if they turn away, then God will punish them severely in this world and the next. They will not have on the earth any ally or supporter.

975 And from them are those who pledged to God ?If He gives us from His bounty, then we will believe and we will be among the upright.?
976 So when He gave them from His bounty, they became stingy with it, and they turned away while they were averse.
977 Thus, hypocrisy follows in their hearts until the Day they meet Him; that is for breaking what they promised God, and for what they were lying

979 Those who criticize the volunteers among the believers in charities; that they only have their efforts to give; so they mock them. God mocks them, and they will have a painful retribution.

981 Those who have remained are happy with their position of lagging behind the messenger of God, and they disliked striving with their money and lives in the cause of God; and they say ?Do not mobilize in the heat.? Say ?The fire of Hell is much hotter,? if they could only understand.

So you can see the reason the hypocrites are disbelievers. It is not solely to them refusing to mobilize in battle and desiring only to mobilize towards the spoils of the war as stated in 983.
Perhaps you should re-read chapter 9 and if you are honest you have at this point. You cannot deny logic.
It is not solely the refusal to mobilize to battle that caused them to become disbelievers but a culmination of all their flaws.

So because we are no longer in a time of war amongst each other then it means there are no more hypocrites around?

The prophet regardless of the reason you want to point out, was told

Wala tusalli AAala ahadin minhum mata abadan wala taqum AAala qabrihi innahum kafaroo biAllahi warasoolihi wamatoo wahum fasiqoona
And not you pray for any of them who dies, ever, and not you stand by his grave. Indeed, they disbelieved in Allah and His Messenger, and died while they were defiantly disobedient.

It does not matter if these were his uncles brothers, cousins. The command does not change.
It is them. Who are them? The hypocrites. Who are hypocrites? Are they only contemporaries of the time of the prophet?
Obviously not. There are hypocrites here today among the nations, among are families and probably many in this very forum as well, as I have seen.

3 important questions for you and perhaps to the rest once again

What do you interpret Tusalli in 984 as? and what do you interpret stand at their grave as?
if Allah commands the prophet to not do such, does that not apply to all the believers as well?
if Allah commands me to not tusalli for them who have died nor stand at their graves why should I listen to you who are telling me the opposite?

If it weren't for your understanding of the Qur'an, if it weren't for your religion and your family's religion, if these things suddenly don't matter anymore, would you attend your family member's funeral or not? Yes or No?

Shall I turn back after what my Lord has guided me of the truth on your account. Then I will perish blameworthy and not you or what you call me to can protect me from Allah if I were to follow you.
So I cannot picture that scenario, I cannot proceed without evaluating all things according to the knowledge Allah has given me.

I do not follow "religion" I follow the universal system of truth from the Absolute, Creator and Ever-Living Sustainer of All that exists.
As of now my family follow their own desires and reject the Message sent to mankind and have uttered blasphemy concerning Allah who does not beget, and when Allah delivers them from what they call Him for they wrong themselves by associating others with Him.

If you refuse to attend someone's funeral because of some personal feud, then that's a different matter, but to use the Qur'an to justify shunning a family member's funeral just because they belong to a different religion would be unjust indeed. Again, please reread .

No there is no personal feud is just a fact I don't know him. Where did I state anything about personal feud. That is just an additional reason why I should not help write the eulogy.

You make it sound as if it is mandatory for believers to attend funerals.

I could very well ask where in the Quran do you read such?

HP_TECH

Peace hawk99

Peace HP_TECH do not take enemies of your lord for friends
Are your family members "hostile opponents" at war with us as in surah 9
are you in danger from them or have they simply chosen another path.

According to what you say below they are not the enemies of Islam

Just because they do not "fight me" or are not at war does not mean that they are not opposing the deen nor does it mean that they are not enemies of Islam.

Someone does not have to physically fight you to oppose you. In fact the hypocrites are infamous for attempting to spread harmful rumors about the prophet and innocent women.

Let me give you an example from the Quran, Lut and his wife and Noah's son and his wife. I would assume that they were not at war with their father and husbands. In fact, maybe by all appearances they seemed like nice people who knows. I would not hold though, that these were hostile in the sense that you asked about my own family. Essentially they were probably like my family. It did not mean anything in the sight of God that they were not fighting them, in the end they were still opposing the deen. They hated Allah and His cause within their hearts and rejected. We all love our families and siblings even if they are wrongdoers and we are cordial and kind and civil wit them, hence why Noah went through the trouble of asking Allah about his son EVEN after he was SPECIFICALLY warned to not address Allah about those who wronged.
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So We inspired to him, "That construct the ship under Our eyes, and Our inspiration, then when comes Our Command and gushes forth the oven, then put into it of every (kind) (of) mates two and your family, except those (has) preceded against whom the Word thereof. And (do) not address Me concerning those who wronged, indeed, they (are) the ones to be drowned.

1145-46
And Nuh called (to) his Lord and said, "O my Lord! Indeed, my son (is) of my family, and indeed, Your promise (is) true, and You (are) the Most Just (of) the judges."
He said, "O Nuh! Indeed, he (is) not of your family; indeed, (his) deed (is) other than righteous, so (do) not ask Me (about) what not you have of it any knowledge. Indeed, I admonish you lest you be among the ignorant."

Sometimes you might think a person is a good person in appearances because they are reserved or because they do not express their disbelief, hatred, aggression towards the deen or you in the open and because they seem to be kind to you but it is what is in their heart that determines what kind of person they truly are.
There are many lessons in this indeed.

Did Lut turn back to the cities to bury his wife? Did Noah search for the body of his son and wife to bury them?
No, because for one they are dead, it does matter in what state our bodies are we will be resurrected altogether at the appointed time. Secondly, they were disbelievers, like Allah said Away with a people not they believe! There is no need for pity/ concern towards them after they have died. The messengers did their part to deliver the message and warn them and invite them repeatedly like Noah and all the other prophets did, should they grieve over them after the fact?

568
Say, "O People (of) the Book! You are not on anything until you stand firmly (by) the Taurat and the Injeel and what has been revealed to you from your Lord. And surely increase many of them, what has been revealed to you from your Lord, (in) rebellion and disbelief. So (do) not grieve over the disbelieving people.

What about Shuaib who warned the people of the Madyan? Look what he says.

792-93
Those who denied Shuaib (became) as if not they (had) lived therein. Those who denied Shuaib, they were the losers.
So he turned away from them and said, "O my people! Verily, I (have) conveyed to you (the) Messages (of) my Lord and advised you. So how could I grieve for a people (who are) disbelievers?"

Be kind to your mother it is better for you (your heart)

46/15 And We have enjoined upon man, to his parents, good treatment. His mother
carried him with hardship and gave birth to him with hardship, and his gestation
and weaning is thirty months. until, when he reaches maturity
and reaches forty years, he says, "My Lord, enable me to be grateful
for Your favor which You have bestowed upon me and upon my parents and to
work righteousness of which You will approve and make righteous for me my
offspring. Indeed, I have repented to You, and indeed, I am of the Muslims."

6/151" Say Come. I will recite unto you that which your Lord has made a
sacred duty for you; that you ascribe nothing as partner unto Him and that
you do good to parents..."

As I see it, it is not about you but about your mother. Participate and support her
for her sake whereas you are safe from disobedience to Allah because you heart is not in it.

peace

So this argument is different in a sense how much of me helping my mother writing her eulogy is just trying to help her ad how much of it is contributing in supporting the disbeliever who has passed away?
All the prophets turned away from the wrongdoers after they passed away, including their own family. Why should I not follow the path of those who turn to Allah?

I agree with helping my mother- but not in this case in which I would be doing something that no prophet has done before.
Noah (who was probably grieving) was admonished about even asking about his own son! Lut left his wife behind! Shuaib turned away from the coprses of his people. Perhaps children and folks or some relatives he once knew to be lively and joyful. Did he turn to them and stand to commemorate any of them?? NO! He turned away and stated How could he grieve??!
Who am I to not comply with the Way of Allah brothers??

I'll remind of what I posted

3114 And We have enjoined (upon) man for his parents - carried him his mother (in) weakness upon weakness, and his weaning (is) in two years that "Be grateful to Me and to your parents; towards Me (is) the destination.
3115 But if they strive against you on that you associate partners with Me what not you have of it any knowledge, then (do) not obey both of them. But accompany them in the world (with) kindness, and follow (the) path (of him) who turns to Me. Then towards Me (is) your return, then I will inform you of what you used (to) do?

Do you O brothers and sisters see me deviating much from following those who turn to Allah? Noah, Out, Shuaib, Muhammad?
Just like Muhammad was told to not support and stand at the graves of this who have died disbelievers we can gather that is the Way of Allah which never alters. Furthermore, we see Shuaib doing the same.
Out did not even argue against the decree about his wife.

These are strong evidences. I am not concerned with making impressions or preserving ties that will be meaningless on the Day of the Judgement in front of Allah.

zayd

So because we are no longer in a time of war amongst each other then it means there are no more hypocrites around?

I would say that you'd have to match them first with the characteristics defined in those verses, but it seems you've already made up your mind about your family, summarily grouping them with evil people who spread chaos and destruction. Also, why did you quote chapter 60 but stopped right at ? Spoiler basically says, "It's okay!"

The believers and the disbelievers at the time of Ibrahim were not in my knowledge at war ( although they did try to burn Abraham),

So, persecuting and harming a prophet didn't count? Their attempt to burn Abraham was just a non-issue? and wouldn't apply here?

in fact later on Abraham, Lut and their followers leave out of their own will, so I do not think they were expelled either.

But the only response from his people was their saying ?Kill him, or burn him.? But God saved him from the fire. In this are signs for a people who believe.

...

They said ?Build for him a structure, and then cast him into its fire.?

So they wanted to plan against him, but We made them the losers.

And he said ?I am going to my Lord; He will guide me.?

...

They said ?If you are to do anything, then burn him, and give victory to your gods.?

We said ?O fire, be cool and safe upon Abraham.?

And they wanted to plan against him, but We made them the losers.

And We saved him and Lot to the land which We have blessed in for the worlds.

Why did they need saving in the first place?

Could it be that the things described in and really did happen to Abraham and his followers? That they were persecuted because of their deen and were driven out of their homes, and that was the reason for ? Could it be that this also happened to other prophets like Noah as well, and that was why he shouldn't have grieved for his son because his son was one of the bad people persecuting Noah and his followers?

in the event this occurs to someone who is closer to me, a sibling or a parent, how do I break it to them that I cannot support them because they have died as disbelievers?

God does not prohibit you from those who have not fought you because of your system, nor drove you out of your homes, that you deal kindly and equitably with them. For God loves the equitable.

But God does prohibit you regarding those who fought you because of your system, and drove you out of your homes, and helped to drive you out. You shall not ally with them. Those who ally with them, then such are the transgressors.

Here you go, a clarification for . Think it over before you do something you might regret.

HP_TECH

I would say that you'd have to match them first with the characteristics defined in those verses, but it seems you've already made up your mind about your family, summarily grouping them with evil people who spread chaos and destruction. Also, why did you quote chapter 60 but stopped right at ? Spoiler basically says, "It's okay!"

So, persecuting and harming a prophet didn't count? Their attempt to burn Abraham was just a non-issue? and wouldn't apply here?

But the only response from his people was their saying ?Kill him, or burn him.? But God saved him from the fire. In this are signs for a people who believe.

...

They said ?Build for him a structure, and then cast him into its fire.?

So they wanted to plan against him, but We made them the losers.

And he said ?I am going to my Lord; He will guide me.?

...

They said ?If you are to do anything, then burn him, and give victory to your gods.?

We said ?O fire, be cool and safe upon Abraham.?

And they wanted to plan against him, but We made them the losers.

And We saved him and Lot to the land which We have blessed in for the worlds.

Why did they need saving in the first place?

Could it be that the things described in and really did happen to Abraham and his followers? That they were persecuted because of their deen and were driven out of their homes, and that was the reason for ? Could it be that this also happened to other prophets like Noah as well, and that was why he shouldn't have grieved for his son because his son was one of the bad people persecuting Noah and his followers?

God does not prohibit you from those who have not fought you because of your system, nor drove you out of your homes, that you deal kindly and equitably with them. For God loves the equitable.

But God does prohibit you regarding those who fought you because of your system, and drove you out of your homes, and helped to drive you out. You shall not ally with them. Those who ally with them, then such are the transgressors.

Here you go, a clarification for . Think it over before you do something you might regret.

Okay...

thanks for clarifying your views about surah 60. I didn't think it would be necessary for me to also include those Ayaahs. I am focusing on nonviolent disbelievers and hypocrites. Also just because Allah does not forbid you to be kind and just to the disbelievers that don't fight to drive you out of the land, does not imply that you should pray for them or stand at their graves when they die. So you pointing out my omission of 608 is a bit irrelevant. Although, you present hypotheses that are sound about what might have led Abraham and his followers to leave.
You kind of focused on surah 60 and disregarded my 3 important questions to you...

3 important questions for you and perhaps to the rest once again

What do you interpret Tusalli in 984 as? and what do you interpret stand at their grave as?
if Allah commands the prophet to not do such, does that not apply to all the believers as well?
if Allah commands me to not tusalli for them who have died nor stand at their graves why should I listen to you who are telling me the opposite?
Again I may be completely wrong about Abraham and his followers being in a conflict and yes I neglected to add 608-9 in my already extensive long post. Yet as stated above it doesn't change the command in 984. Also I have failed to see how your post could possibly be of any clarification of 984?? hmm

reel

I don't want to wrongfully portray my family.

You didn't at all bro.

I recite back to them something to shake their shells in response to their aggression.

Unfortunately, the recitation won't work simply because their mind got hijacked by the media and we can't blame them for it. Media truly has weird power! But again, in a family of hadithers you will experience the same. I have come to realize that probably Quran is not for all.

I am sorry about what you have gone through with your family. I like your advise about being patient it resonates with my Lord answered me this morning.

Thanks, very happy to hear that Lord responded to you

I sometimes reply those exact words to them "Peace, For you are your deeds and for us are our deeds"
My request is not because I am feeling down (like I am losing), or not patient towards what is occurring,

Oh no, I didn't mean it this way. I was implying frustrating situations.

it is because I legitimately have a concern about supporting a deceased disbeliever in death.

I can't go to the funeral because it is in Africa. But you think that it would be appropriate for me to go to a funeral of a deceased disbeliever even after 984?

Of course, the choice is yours. But you can read verses surrounding 984 carefully to do it. The people talked about in them were new reverts. The truth came to them, yet they were being shallow and dishonest.

974 They swear by God that they did not say it, while they had said the word of rejection, and they rejected after they had submitted, and they were obsessed with what they could not possess; and they could not find any fault except that God and His messenger had enriched them from His bounty. If they repent it is better for them, and if they turn away, then God will punish them severely in this world and the next. They will not have on the earth any ally or supporter.
If the case of deceased disbeliever doesn't satisfy them then I don't think we can use 984 on him.

zayd

Also I have failed to see how your post could possibly be of any clarification of 984??

Verses .

Would you not fight a people who broke their oaths, and obsessed to expel the messenger, especially while they were the ones who attacked you first? Are you concerned about them? It is God who is more deserving that you be concerned with if you are believers.

...

If you do not help him, then God has helped him. When those who rejected expelled him, he was one of only two, and when they were in the cave, he said to his friend ?Do not grieve, for God is with us.? So God sent down His tranquility over him and He supported him with soldiers that you did not see, and He made the word of those who rejected be the lowest, and the word of God be the highest. God is Noble, Wise.

No relation with ?

Whenever you see "fight them" in chapter 9, does that include the people in or not? Why or why not?

No relation between and ?

does not imply that you should pray for them

Your words, not mine.

You've kind of put the cart in front of the horse by focusing on the meanings of "tusalli" while disregarding the most important issue in this whole damn thing

Should your family be included in in the first place or not?

Who are "they" in ?

Hypocrites? Then is your family a bunch of people who only pretend to be mu'mineen? Yes or No?

Disbelievers? Then is your family the type or the type?

HP_TECH

Of course, the choice is yours. But you can read verses surrounding 984 carefully to do it. The people talked about in them were new reverts. The truth came to them, yet they were being shallow and dishonest.

If the case of deceased disbeliever doesn't satisfy them then I don't think we can use 984 on him.

You are right sis, in the end the choice is mine to take. I Just wanted to get some feedback on the overall understanding of these ayaahs.

But you see, the thing is, that I do not think people need to completely match those descriptions. What I mean there are many more ayaas describing hypocrites and disbelievers. In essence the hypocrites are a kind of disbelievers. They are disbelievers who pretend to be believers, while the disbelievers outright reject and deny.
So it is like there is a huge range of markers for the disbelievers. It does not end with 984.
I would think that if the prophet is told to not pray nor stand on the graves of these hypocrites, how much worse the disbelievers who out right mock the believers, spread rumors, deny his messengership, deny the Hereafter, People of the Book who transgressed and etcetera. The list is huge and varies, everything is in degrees.

In fact look at this ayaat I posted earlier

568
Say, "O People (of) the Book! You are not on anything until you stand firmly (by) the Taurat and the Injeel and what has been revealed to you from your Lord. And surely increase many of them, what has been revealed to you from your Lord, (in) rebellion and disbelief. So (do) not grieve over the disbelieving people.

We can tell here the People of The Book have a duty to stand firm on all that Allah has revealed. Allah mentions Taurat, Injeel and what has been revealed to the prophet from our Lord. Yet this latter revelation increases rebellion and disbelief in these People of the Scripture because of their rejection. In the end they are labelled as disbelieving people.

Rejection of the Message of the Quran and its messenger Muhammad is a trait of a disbelieving person.

So if Muhammad is told to not even pray for those among them who pretend to be believers, how about those who divide into sects and deny the Quran and Muhammad out right and furthermore utter blasphemies about Allah begetting, or atrocities about slaughtering Isa son of Mary?

This is the point I am making if we are not allowed to even grieve over the hypocrites how much more the disbelievers?

HP_TECH

does not imply that you should pray for them

Your words, not mine.

Also just because Allah does not forbid you to be kind and just to the disbelievers that don't fight to drive you out of the land, does not imply that you should pray for them or stand at their graves when they die

No these were my words zayd

And I mean that you are using one extreme,that Allah does not forbid to be kind and just, to imply that it would be perhaps kind and just to simply pray or stand at the graves of those who have died as disbelievers.

When two have nothing to do with each other. We are misunderstanding one another.
608-9 is meant to inform the believers that they do not have to be hostile to every group of disbelievers.

While 984 is indicating to the prophet to not pray/support nor stand at the graves of those who have disbelieved.

Me including or omitting it would make no difference to the latter.

You've kind of put the cart in front of the horse by focusing on the meanings of "tusalli" while disregarding the most important issue in this whole damn thing

Are you mad at me? I hope you are not upset by my tone. But, please do not use such language while we are referring to the Quran.

Should your family be included in in the first place or not?

Who are "they" in ?

Hypocrites? Then is your family a bunch of people who only pretend to be mu'mineen? Yes or No?

Disbelievers? Then is your family the type or the type?

I see there is this tendency of trying to match my family as it has become the subject, to those descriptions.
If it helps do not think about my family, but think of it in general. After all, it is upon me to investigate whether those who I interact are indeed brothers in the din just as the prophet is instructed to examine all the people who emigrate to the system.

6010
O you who believe! When come to you the believing women (as) emigrants, then examine them. Allah (is) most knowing of their faith. And if you know them (to be) believers, then (do) not return them to the disbelievers. Not they (are) lawful for them and not they are lawful for them. But give them what they have spent. And not any blame upon you if you marry them when you have given them their (bridal) dues. And (do) not hold to marriage bonds with disbelieving women, but ask (for) what you have spent, and let them ask what they have spent. That (is the) Judgment (of) Allah. He judges between you. And Allah (is) All-Knowing, All-Wise.
6012
O Prophet! When come to you the believing women pledging to you that not they will associate with Allah anything, and not they will steal, and not they will commit adultery, and not they will kill their children, and not they bring slander, they invent it between their hands and their feet, and not they will disobey you in (the) right, then accept their pledge and ask forgiveness for them (from) Allah. Indeed, Allah (is) Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

So perhaps at this point I have known them to not be believers, Allah knows best about their faith.

Like I have said to reel. Disbelievers come in varying degrees.

I'll keep it short, but if we are told not even pray/support not stand at the graves of hypocrites (who seemingly only refused to mobilize) how much worse disbelievers who deny the Message of the Quran and its Messenger, and deny the Oneness of Allah and claim He has begotten? Glory be to Him above what they associate!

In fact look at how Allah addresses the People of the Book and what He conveys to the believers about not grieving over the DISBELIEVERS in 568
Say, "O People (of) the Book! You are not on anything until you stand firmly (by) the Taurat and the Injeel and what has been revealed to you from your Lord. And surely increase many of them, what has been revealed to you from your Lord, (in) rebellion and disbelief. So (do) not grieve over the disbelieving people.

Do you think the latter have an exemption in that command given in 984 so do you think if there are disbelievers who do not fit in the descriptions given, but out right reject and deny, that then it makes it ok to participate in their funeral?

And another thing I missed about what you previously asked about Noah. No I don't think his son was actively part of those persecuting them, there are different kinds of deniers like there are degrees among the believers. If his son was an active opposing persecuting figure, why would he be in such a surprise that he would risk addressing Allah about him after he had been clearly admonished to do so? It seems like He expected his son to be on board with them and even called out to him.
Just like you might expect some around you to be on board with you but lo and behold deep in their heart they disagreed with you completely.
I do not think this is too hard to picture. Regardless of the example of my own family.
ANSWER THIS HONESTLY PLEASE

Do you think it is appropriate for a believer( not me just in general) to attend a disbeliever's funeral per what I have demonstrated of the evidence in Quran

984, Noah, Lut, Shuaib

Suppliant

Recently my grandpa passed away my mother asked me to help her write an eulogy, I have never met the man, nor heard his voice, nor know his name, nor has he ever pen-palled me or come to visit me EVER. Furthermore, he basically abandoned my mother when she was a teen and tended to his other family. My mother had not seen him for nearly 30 years before he passed. I obviously do not hold this man in any esteem, rather the opposite. He neglected my mother and us. He always visited his other family and grandchildren and called them and conversed with them frequently on the phone. I literally have nothing nice to say about him. I do not want to support such a man in anyway. I am also convinced he was not a muslimina. I am vehemently opposed to supporting anything in relation to this funeral, including helping my mother write this eulogy. I feel it would violate the command in 984. Therefore, I do not feel bad when I told my mother I could not help her. I cannot obey her on associating with Allah what I have not been given any authority on.

I'm thinking you won't like my answer, but if it helps, you said that you don't know this man, your grandpa. You are also convinced he was not a muslimina.

This is what the Qur'an says

O believers, eschew much suspicion; some suspicion is a sin. And do not spy, neither backbite one another; would any of you like to eat the flesh of his brother dead? You would abominate it. And fear you God; assuredly God turns, and He is All-compassionate. - 49.12

I suppose if you never knew the man, can you say he was not a muslimina and not call yourself suspicious?

Just my two-cents on this. It sounds a bit personal, as you do not want to have anything to do with the funeral because of how he has treated your mother & family. But then again, I do not know your situation. Please ask God for help on this.

hawk99

You pick and choose ayats to follow the prophets to make your argument.
Have you confronted the leaders of society? Do you have a book? Are you exempt
from the marriage laws? Can you declare war? Do you preach publicly?
If not, do not compare yourself to the prophets. Some things in Quran are
addressed to the prophets (singular) I am not saying pray or stand
at the grave, I am saying support your mother I know you are
hurt by your grandfathers shunning but for once give up your selfishness
and think about someone who needs you. Your mother will not be with you forever. nope
Sometimes we intellectualize when there is no need

peace

HP_TECH

Okay I see a lot are really focusing on the example I have given about my family, it is just an example.

So let us try it a bit differently this time....

Based on Quranic evidence presented and your own knowledge of the Book

Abraham who asked forgiveness for his disbelieving father and we are told to not follow his example in that.
Noah who was admonished for addressing Allah about his disbelieving son
Lut who fled the city early in the morning and left behind his disbelieving wife
Shuaib turning away from and refraining to grieve over those who had disbelieved and died among his people
Muhammad being commanded not pray/support nor stand at the graves of those who disbelieved and died while being disobedient.

In general forget about my family's example....
...Would you say that a believer should in any way support and attend the funeral of one who has clearly died as a disbeliever?

Please be honest thanks.

HP_TECH

You pick and choose ayats to follow the prophets to make your argument.
Have you confronted the leaders of society? Do you have a book? Are you exempt
from the marriage laws? Can you declare war? Do you preach publicly?
If not, do not compare yourself to the prophets. Some things in Quran are
addressed to the prophets (singular) I am not saying pray or stand
at the grave, I am saying support your mother I know you are
hurt by your grandfathers shunning but for once give up your selfishness
and think about someone who needs you. Your mother will not be with you forever. nope
Sometimes we intellectualize when there is no need

peace

Wow...I did not pick and choose anything, I tried to be as thorough as possible, to include all relevant ayaats I am only a human.
If there are any other relevant ayaats to the topic of supporting disbelievers or standing at their graves, please bring them forth.
I only presented all that I was capable of recollecting.

Allah clearly says to follow the path of those who turn to Him, we have of the best examples in the Quran. Hence Allah telling us in surah 60 that in Abraham and his followers we have a great example as to deal with the disbelievers. Meaning we should follow their examples. Does me wanting to follow what I am told by Allah in the Quran equal to me comparing myself to the prophets??
How do you judge hawk99?

Indeed most of what is addressed to the prophet applies to us as well as He is a great example to follow for the exception of some obvious instructions like the marriage laws and a few others. But to mention this, is a very down-low attempt from you brother to make me feel like I was aspiring to be a prophet or something. That's not right..... You know I meant good by my request and presenting all the ayaats I could find.

It is the opposite of selfishness, selfish would be desiring the life of the world and bonds and relationships among family, while it is much harder to take a step back from wanting to help my mother and say no because of fearing to transgress.

No, I am not selfish indeed but Allah knows, and I'll be patient over all this. I only sought help from those who I thought were my brothers in the deen.

Yet it is true I should ultimately refer back to Allah

Indeed He raises in degrees some among others, perhaps we are not all on the same degree

I will turn to my Lord He will guide me

Peace

Suppliant

Okay I see a lot are really focusing on the example I have given about my family, it is just an example.

So let us try it a bit differently this time....

Based on Quranic evidence presented and your own knowledge of the Book

Abraham who asked forgiveness for his disbelieving father and we are told to not follow his example in that.
Noah who was admonished for addressing Allah about his disbelieving son
Lut who fled the city early in the morning and left behind his disbelieving wife
Shuaib turning away from and refraining to grieve over those who had disbelieved and died among his people
Muhammad being commanded not pray/support nor stand at the graves of those who disbelieved and died while being disobedient.

In general forget about my family's example....
...Would you say that a believer should in any way support and attend the funeral of one who has clearly died as a disbeliever?

Please be honest thanks.

Peace.

To answer your question, I would say that a believer should not in any way support and attend the funeral of one who has clearly died as a disbeliever.

However, please note the following in the Qur'an

The Prophet is nearer to the believers than their selves; his wives are their mothers. Those who are bound by blood are nearer to one another in the Book of God than the believers and the emigrants; nevertheless you should act towards your friends honourably; that stands inscribed in the Book. - 33.6

In my understanding, it stands to reason that if your family is closer to you than believers, they must be closer to you than disbelievers. Family is different when it comes to separating them from believers vs disbelievers, so while the answer to your question is "a believer should not support..." this instance may not apply to family.

If you consider the example of Abraham and his father, as well as Noah and his son. Both these prophets prayed for their kin UNTIL God admonished them. I suppose if God admonishes you for praying for the disbeliever, then you can continue to pray for kin.

This is my opinion that I have formed from the above verse and what I know of the Book. Please put this into consideration when formulating your answer.

Best of luck to you, bro. Listen to what God has to say.

reel

I am saying support your mother I know you are
hurt by your grandfathers shunning but for once give up your selfishness
and think about someone who needs you. Your mother will not be with you forever.

Very true and honestly speaking, no matter how terrible a parent/sibling/aunt/grandpa is the bitterness just goes away when it comes to their death.

HP_TECH bro,
Since you didn't come in contact with the man your approach to him at this time is based on rationality. He didn't care. So you don't see the need to be all that sad about him. Your position not wrong. Probably, your mom felt the same way, but you see, death changes things a lot. We humans are created weak and one of our weakest links happens to be our heart which melts too easily during moments like this.

But you see, the thing is, that I do not think people need to completely match those descriptions. What I mean there are many more ayaas describing hypocrites and disbelievers. In essence the hypocrites are a kind of disbelievers. They are disbelievers who pretend to be believers, while the disbelievers outright reject and deny.

I haven't seen any verse which tells us to shun away someone just because they are disbeliever.

I would think that if the prophet is told to not pray nor stand on the graves of these hypocrites, how much worse the disbelievers who out right mock the believers, spread rumors, deny his messengership, deny the Hereafter, People of the Book who transgressed and etcetera. The list is huge and varies, everything is in degrees.

There is a difference between the disbelievers spoken about in the Quran and the ones we find in our environment. Don't depend just on one verse. Read everything surrounding it. Also use your logic. Don't wanna brag, but ask yourself why we are the number one and the most incomparable state in this country. Once Iraq saw similar trend when they welcomed diversity. When people are shun away we become Texas or Saudia Arabia.

Belief is almost same as love.
In your mind, you have fallen in love with Allah and you have the rationality through which you can say why he is the one. But same is not true about the people in your environment. They love a different God and in their head, somehow they figured out how to translate the meaning of Trinity. They are so faithful to it that what you tell them about Allah does not make sense to them. It is made worse by the media. You can scream as much as you want about how your version of the Islam is peaceful. But it won't make sense to them without you show it through your own actions. Always remind yourself that the prophets didn't get followers overnight and plenty of them ended up getting murder threats.

fye

yep stand not by there graves it's one of those hard choices but you gain a strength and firmness afterward.

consider the other options you want everyone you know and love to live forever but at some point they all die, does that make them closer to you? or is a funeral another day that you can just say you over slept on?

the problem is you making a big deal over the command of ALLAH.

I have a question when you go to a funeral does it comfort the dead? what do the deceased feel about this?